Code Geass Roze

[Mafty]

So what does everyone think of this? Apparently it will be a four film set that will start this year, and maybe focus on a different cast. So far the animation and character designs looks neat, and it seems this series will have animation that's a bit more like Akito The Exiled than the last Geass movie.

[yugioh54]

I liked the promo and the mobile games have been able to make new characters that have a geass and not make it too jammed packed. I just don't get why Goro Taniguchi and Ichiro Okouchi didn't directly make this unless they were burnt out or they wanted to let others a chance at the Code geass franchise, more voices, I guess. I do hope they return to make something considering it's a 10 year plan but I assume there gonna give Lelouch a rest as a character. But it's probably the idea that they escape the MC shadow and make the new series work without him, sorta like how Gundam doesn't need Amuro but Char was so iconic but didn't overuse him. It didn't work with Yugioh as they had to reboot.

So it's more like how much can they can massage the canon so Geass lives on without the MC like Gundam

[Mafty]

So some news. According to Disney+'s X page (however accurate Google Translate is) , the movies will be split into 12 episodes and released internationally in late June.

Honestly the trailer looks amazing; from the animation to the mech designs.


There is also a official webpage up with the info on the series.

[Mafty]

Apparently the show will release weekly starting on June 21st.

[Mafty]

So who else has watched the first episode?

Spoiler

It started off great, though it only works if your familiar with the original story. The series itself reminds me a bit of Armor Hunter Mellowlink , wherein it appears each episode will center around the heroes fighting an irredeemable scumbag in a flashy battle.

That being said Mellowlink could stand on its own without many ties to Votoms, meanwhile Code Geass Roze is tied deeper into the Code Geass mythos.

Aside from the backstory of Area 11 and discrimination, we have the Geass power of Roze. Which differs from Lelouch in that it forces people to either obey or kill themselves. Where Roze got this power is as of yet unknown.

Another plot thread is the fact that Roze is the apparently imprisoned Sakuya Sumeragi of Kyoto House, who downs the disguise to drive out the Neo Britannians and rescue her twin, who is talking her place in the island prison.

This of course brings up the question of who exactly knows Sakuya's true identity? Does her "Brother" Ash know, or has he been Geassed into thinking they are siblings?

So a great first episode so far, and I'm looking forward to more.

What's everyone else think?

[Seto Kaiba]

TBH, my first reaction was that Roze of the Recapture is another example of a sequel that doesn't need to exist and doesn't have anything in the way of original thought behind it. It's repetition for repetition's sake.

Spoiler

They couldn't even be arsed to come up with an original premise. It's the same premise as the original series, just again and worse. The only thing that's really changed apart from this being set in Hokkaido instead of Kanto and the Britannians have to be more performatively cruel so that it stands out compared to the original. Instead of the Britannians killing Japanese people for horrible but practical reasons they're just doing it for fun now.

Japan's fate is left in the hands of a dark-haired Britannian royal with an excessively theatrical manner and a Geass power and a cat-loving Knightmare Frame pilot in a one-of-a-kind ace custom KMF. "Roze" even has a very similar geass power to Lelouch, able to compel obedience to a spoken order... but seemingly able to impose conditions on it.


Design-wise, it doesn't really feel like the art style has evolved much... which is odd considering this is meant to be a distant sequel. The Britannians still use the same body armor and hand weapons seen in the original, but everyone's Knightmare Frames seem to have regressed if anything. Japan was apparently still fighting using the Gekkas introduced in R2, and the new Britannian KMFs look even more primitive than the Sutherlands and Glasgows they were using at the start of the original. Zi-Apollo feels like nothing so much as a riced-out Lancelot, and the Kirkwayne bros KMF just looks cheap and primitive and out of place... and almost remind me more of the Giant War Armors (specifically Jeanne's Orleans) from Nobunaga the Fool than any Britannian KMF. The character aesthetic is little changed compared to the original too, the Britannian uniforms wouldn't look much out of place in the original, and the Japanese Army's looks almost identical to what Todo wore in the original.

After watching the first episode all the way through, all I can say is that my first impression was dead-on... Roze of the Recapture feels like a very lazy, derivative, and halfhearted sequel. It is the same basic story the original series told, but less compelling this time for its flanderization and lack of originality. Neo Britannia is just a less compelling version of Neo Zeon. Neo Zeon at least could pretend it was fighting for a worthy cause in the form of spacenoid independence. Neo Britannia are just holding the villain ball because it's fun apparently.

The lack of design innovation, combined with the lack of originality in the story, just leaves me thinking one word... "uninspired".


EDIT: Also, did anyone else find the audio was mastered very quiet? I had to turn my TV's volume up to about 40 to get the dialog consistently audible, almost three times the usual level.

[yugioh54]

Haven't seen it, compared to Akito the Exiled, which one seems like a worthwhile spinoff?

[Seto Kaiba]

Haven't seen it, compared to Akito the Exiled, which one seems like a worthwhile spinoff?

In what sense are we using the word "worthwhile"?

I don't think we have enough of Code Geass: Roze of the Recapture to judge which one is more enjoyable yet.

If we're looking at it in terms of which one makes more of a meaningful contribution to the Code Geass setting... probably Akito, since it's a side story to the original series.

That said, as much as I love Code Geass, I've never really felt like any of the three later anime titles in the franchise were necessary additions to the story. What I mean there is that there's no unresolved burning question that needed a new anime to answer.

[Mafty]

I agree that Roze is sort of a redo of the series main aspects with a new cast. However I still find it enjoyable.

I do think that Akito the Exiled works as the best side story/sequel, due to actually expanding on the world of the story itself.

[yugioh54]

Will check them out, also the mobile games Lost Stories and Genesic Recode seem to be expanding the world, so hopefully more content and this doesn't turn into Eureka Seven where they made an absymal sequel about Rentons offspring or the movies. I hope Goro Taniguchi and Ichiro Okouchi comeback but there working other projects and Geass isn't priority. Bandai is really wants to make a profit of this franchise but Lelouch and the original series overshadows all these spinoffs. Like what happened with Yugioh, they couldn't escape Yugis shadow and then they changed the art style, or DBZ with Goku. I can't think of a successful spinoff that has a new cast in a mecha or series in general. Besides Gundam, FMP is attempting a sequel with an older Kanami and Sousuke. WIthout Takahiro Kimura the character designer, I wonder if it hurts of helps Geass. Trying to make it the next Gundam. This is also a superhero problem, Miles Morales and USM by Bendis seem to be the only mantle characters that have worked, They tried making a spider-girl comic by Deflaco where Peter is retired after the Clone Saga but it had dated writing and it lasted a long time. It's also the Naruto problem, the audience wants to see naruto not his son.

If they make a Geass with a different look. Lelouch is too popular and I think they will make another movie with him in it. Gundam and Macross seem like the only franchises that work without there original cast. Amuro isn't a Lelouch and isn't as compelling as any of the guys listed above and Macross added more mystical elements into there series.

The main question, do sequels spinoffs with the OG cast work? Yugioh GX and DIgimon 02 were able too, But the producers retreat to the OG cast with the DIgimon reboot, Tri, Kizuna, 02 The beginning. Zexal was super successful in asia and what doesn the Zexal crew get.. an OG cast reunion epilogue movie. Then they make arc v that teases preivous yugioh series of cast members making appearances and redoing a 5ds arc

Back to Geass, I always thought Akito seemed to go in the right direction, But every protag as a Geass user will become a problem as an MAHQ review mentioned. Plus Geass and Eureka seven was never really about the mechs. Geass is remembered for the glossed over politics and Lelouch, like Gundam 00 first season, they might have to take a page from Macross 7

[Seto Kaiba]

Bandai is really wants to make a profit of this franchise but Lelouch and the original series overshadows all these spinoffs. Like what happened with Yugioh, they couldn't escape Yugis shadow and then they changed the art style, or DBZ with Goku. I can't think of a successful spinoff that has a new cast in a mecha or series in general. Besides Gundam, FMP is attempting a sequel with an older Kanami and Sousuke. WIthout Takahiro Kimura the character designer, I wonder if it hurts of helps Geass. Trying to make it the next Gundam. This is also a superhero problem, Miles Morales and USM by Bendis seem to be the only mantle characters that have worked, They tried making a spider-girl comic by Deflaco where Peter is retired after the Clone Saga but it had dated writing and it lasted a long time. It's also the Naruto problem, the audience wants to see naruto not his son.

This is a really good observation and cuts directly to the heart of why it's an uphill battle to sell a sequel to a series like Code Geass.

When the central premise of a story is fundamentally invested in a specific protagonist, it's much much harder to develop sequels or spinoffs that do not involve that protagonist.

The reason Code Geass has struggled to find footing for new stories without Lelouch vi Britannia is right there in the original title: Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion. Lelouch and his monomaniacal quest for revenge anyone and everyone involved in his mother's death and sister's incapacitation were the driving force behind the entire plot of Code Geass.

Shounen anime in general tends to struggle with this, since single protagonists tend to be the norm there. The rest of the characters are often there mainly for The Worf Effect or to be The Rival. The same tends to be true for American comics, since the central premise of superhero comics is the continuing adventures of <specific superhero> and replacing alter aliases has proven to not be a winning strategy. Harry Potter and the Star Wars settings are also great examples of this, struggling outside of storylines focused on The Chosen One. To an extent, I think we also see this kind of thing in Gundam's AUs, which are often main character-driven like G Gundam, Gundam Wing, and Gundam SEED.

The titles that we more commonly see have the kind of flexibility to launch spinoffs and side stories are the ones that rely more on ensemble casts and have premises that are largely independent of any one character.

Amuro isn't a Lelouch and isn't as compelling as any of the guys listed above and Macross added more mystical elements into there series.

Both the original Gundam and the original Macross were more of an ensemble cast focus... they had a main character, but the story did not focus near-exclusively on that one character and the story focus was on the broader struggle rather than the main character's personal struggle.

(There's really nothing mystical in Macross... the ancient Protoculture just crossed the boundary of Clarke's Third Law around Macross 7 and never looked back.)

The main question, do sequels spinoffs with the OG cast work? Yugioh GX and DIgimon 02 were able too, But the producers retreat to the OG cast with the DIgimon reboot, Tri, Kizuna, 02 The beginning. Zexal was super successful in asia and what doesn the Zexal crew get.. an OG cast reunion epilogue movie. Then they make arc v that teases preivous yugioh series of cast members making appearances and redoing a 5ds arc

Regardless of format, I think that really depends on how the original story ended and how the sequels/spinoffs with the OG cast are written.

If the returning characters are written like completely different people or their character development is forced in an unnatural direction to suit the new story, audiences will tend to reject it. (e.g. Star Trek: Picard, Star Wars: the Last Jedi)

Back to Geass, I always thought Akito seemed to go in the right direction, But every protag as a Geass user will become a problem as an MAHQ review mentioned. Plus Geass and Eureka seven was never really about the mechs. Geass is remembered for the glossed over politics and Lelouch, like Gundam 00 first season, they might have to take a page from Macross 7

Yeah, the problem with Geass in Code Geass is twofold...

First, it's a story-breaker power at best. Finding a way to work it into the story and impose adequate limitations on it is always slightly problematic.

Second, its proliferation tends to lead to too many characters developing similar powers. Despite the form a Geass power takes supposedly being heavily dependent on the individual, there are already way too many characters who have the power of Absolute Obedience with the only variations being the limitations on that power.

[yugioh54]

Ironically, Cowboy Bebop is the show I think would work as a franchise but it'd ruin the mystery of the show, Big O maybe if it was more popular, I'm thinking of Mecha that have an ensemble cast. Cross Ange I'd like to see but they would have to negate the ending or at least address the stuff they glossed over about the different earths. Eureka Seven might've worked I thought the characters story was finished, AO was weird with the ending but I never thought Renton overshadowed the franchise.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ironically, Cowboy Bebop is the show I think would work as a franchise but it'd ruin the mystery of the show, [...]

As the failure of the live action series and the scorn it drew from the original director, that one needs to be left alone.

Big O maybe if it was more popular, I'm thinking of Mecha that have an ensemble cast.

The Big O is not an ensemble cast series... it's very much a single protagonist focus series centered on Roger Smith.

Eureka Seven might've worked I thought the characters story was finished, AO was weird with the ending but I never thought Renton overshadowed the franchise.

Eureka Seven perhaps, but like Code Geass there wasn't really anywhere for the premise to go past the end of the original series... AO was an unnecessary sequel.

[Mafty]

Evangelion, Maybe? It helps that there are multiple alternative timelines (which to be fair Eureka Seven tried as well), and the fact they keep adding more evidently means these alternate timelines have some popularity.

As for Eureka Seven

Spoiler

It might have worked better if they kept each new series in a completely new universe, instead of combing all the less popular sequels into one big timeline that took over the original

As Kaiba has said having the main character being the center, means its difficult to have somebody else take over.

That being said , I still find Roze to be an interesting story on its own.

Spoiler

This episode actually shows that Roze's "Brother" Ash Phoenix was actually a Neo Britannian solider brainwashed by Roze/Sakuya after he killed her father.

For the main storyline

Spoiler

we are lead to your princess is literally in another castle as Cathrine kidnappees the fake Sakuya setting off a plot that will most likely last the rest of the season

This does leave another question

Spoiler

Where did Roze/Sakuya get the Geass from to begin with?

In a more broad sense is it ever stated how the Geass came to exist in the Code Geass universe to start with?

[Seto Kaiba]

So I was doing a bit of digging, and this is not set ANYWHERE NEAR as far into the future as I'd initially thought. I'd completely forgotten that the new calendar system was introduced in Re;surrection.

Roze of the Recapture is set in the year Kowa 7... the Black Albion short story set after the main Code Geass series puts Kowa 1 as the year after Emperor Lelouch vi Britannia's death in 2018atb (so, 2019atb) and Lelouch of the Re;surrection is set in Kowa 2 (2020atb).

Roze of the Recapture's prologue is set in Kowa 3 (2021atb), and the main series is set in Kowa 7 (2025atb). So it's only been like, seven years since the end of the original series and five since the epilogue.

With that in mind, the show's aesthetic problems flip upside-down... the lack of changes in the aesthetics of most of the setting's technology make perfect sense if it's only been eight years since the Black Rebellion. The radical changes in KMF design make a lot less sense... especially given the Britannian Army's standardization of hardware in the original series and Neo Britannia being a splinter faction of the Britannian Empire that tried to refuse Emperor Lelouch's reforms. You'd expect a splinter faction to have limited resources and reuse existing machines they had when the Empire dissolved like the 7th Generation mass-production Vincent Ward and Gareth that were the Empire's cutting edge production machines at the end of Lelouch's reign, but the Camden seems to be a throwback with capabilities no better than 5th Gen and tech that looks more at home on a 3rd Gen KMF like the Ganymede despite a model number (RPI-221) that clearly suggests it was developed well after the Vincent Ward (RPI-212B). I guess this also explains why the Zi-Apollo looks like a knockoff Lancelot... it probably IS one. Lancelot's model number was Z-01... Zi-Apollo's is UZZ-001.

Evangelion, Maybe? It helps that there are multiple alternative timelines (which to be fair Eureka Seven tried as well), and the fact they keep adding more evidently means these alternate timelines have some popularity.

Evangelion's a single-protagonist narrative centered on Shinji throughout the original series, movies, and Rebuild.

(Continuations like Rebuild also kind of ruin the artistic statement being made by the original... which was an epic vitriolic deconstruction of the mecha genre and otaku culture that unfortunately flew over the heads of most of the audience.)

That being said , I still find Roze to be an interesting story on its own.

Spoiler

This episode actually shows that Roze's "Brother" Ash Phoenix was actually a Neo Britannian solider brainwashed by Roze/Sakuya after he killed her father.

So he's just a low-rent Suzaku Kururugi... which was already pretty obvious from his piloting a low-rent Lancelot and his cat obsession.

For the main storyline

Spoiler

we are lead to your princess is literally in another castle as Cathrine kidnappees the fake Sakuya setting off a plot that will most likely last the rest of the season

This does leave another question

Spoiler

Where did Roze/Sakuya get the Geass from to begin with?

She'd have to have received a Geass from a Code Bearer who considered her a prospective candidate to inherit their Code.

Presumably a Code Bearer from another branch of the Geass Order like the one in Zirkistan... or she met C.C. or L.L. and they liked the cut of her jib.

Spoiler

Japanese Wiki says that Sakuya/Roze got her geass from L.L.

In a more broad sense is it ever stated how the Geass came to exist in the Code Geass universe to start with?

Nope... and it almost certainly never will.

Geass is a supernatural ability tied to humanity's collective unconscious after all.

[Chris]

You'd expect a splinter faction to have limited resources and reuse existing machines

Every incarnation of Neo Zeon would like to have a word...

[Seto Kaiba]

Every incarnation of Neo Zeon would like to have a word...

Yeah, yeah... Neo Zeon's logistical situation can best be explained as a mixture of "Anaheim did it" and "No, we don't know either.. the toy division said they had to have a new MS".

Still, Code Geass being a tiny bit more grounded than UC Gundam and limited to just the resources and manpower available on Earth... you'd expect a small breakaway state like Neo Britannia to be a bit more limited resources-wise. The Holy Britannian Empire, Chinese Federation, and EU in the original series could get away with that because they each controlled about 1/3 of the planet at the start of the story. Now the United Federation of Nations controls most of the world and Neo Britannia's just sort of... holed up in Hokkaido? It makes you wonder where they're getting the various replacement parts and so on to keep their KMFs running... Hokkaido's not exactly a hub of industry, it's mainly agricultural.

[Mafty]

Neo Britannia is made up of (mostly in the case of the pilots) high level nobility. So it seems like that would aide in the cash flow to build the Knightmare Frames.

Of course that leads the question of WHO designed and built such high tech units? It might be an Anaheim thing where former designers are on the nobles payroll, but I doubt we'll get a full explanation, plus like Kaiba said the resources are still a question...

[Seto Kaiba]

Neo Britannia is made up of (mostly in the case of the pilots) high level nobility. So it seems like that would aide in the cash flow to build the Knightmare Frames.

We don't have enough information about who the people behind Neo Britannia are to be drawing that kind of conclusion.

We know that at least one member of the Einberg Knights was an orphan who grew up in an orphanage, so it doesn't appear that the knights themselves are necessarily nobility of high rank. Given that they seem to be the linchpin of this regime, it may be that these are only low ranking regional nobles and Knights of Honor who simply want to go back to the good old days rather than a conspiracy of powerful people. It would be rather odd for it to be such a conspiracy, given that Emperor Lelouch deprived the Britannian nobility of their privileges of rank after assuming the throne.

Emperor Caris al Britannia is basically the only one that we can say was born to a fairly high status, but he's only one of over 100 children fathered by Charles zi Britannia. He's not exactly someone who would have had a strong claim to the throne regardless, given his age he would have to be one of the people with the least strong claim to the throne among the former Imperial family. Though a good chunk of the family probably did die when Prince Schneizel bombed Pendragon and we know quite a few of them were already under geass control. With Schneizel and his sister Cornelia still in play on the UFN side, and former Emperor Lelouch still technically alive as L.L., it seems a safe bet that Caris is less in charge than he is a useful idiot for whatever minor nobleman is pulling the strings. Kind of like Prince Heinz in Macross Delta.

Of course that leads the question of WHO designed and built such high tech units? It might be an Anaheim thing where former designers are on the nobles payroll, but I doubt we'll get a full explanation, plus like Kaiba said the resources are still a question...

Indeed. On both sides come to that.

The setting doesn't have an Anaheim Electronics selling to both sides in order to keep the war economy going for its own benefit. All of the development is being done by the tech industries of the various nations, and Britannia is mostly a part of the UFN now. So it's not exactly clear where Neo Britannia got the resources to make all of these new KMFs or to maintain them. Especially since they're only territory is supposedly Hokkaido, which is a very rural area mainly given over to agriculture with a rather low population.

[Mafty]

Seto Kaiba wrote: All of the development is being done by the tech industries of the various nations

How much information is out there in the different tech companies in the Code Geass Universe? There being multiple different companies would actually explain the wide difference in technology across different factions (i.e the Europa United's vastly different Knightmare Frames in Akito the Exiled).