The Official Gundam: Requiem for Vengeance Anime Thread Mk I

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah Seto understands what I meant to say.

It's a common enough complaint with Gundam titles...

Though, I must admit, as someone with an appreciation for Gundam I rather like how Requiem for Vengeance adds some authenticity to the fear that the Gundam stoked in Zeon's forces during the One Year War as far back as the original series. RfV really captures WHY the Zeon forces on Earth started calling the Gundam the "White Devil" or "White Demon". It's practically a horror movie monster. It's nightmarishly fast and agile, bullets and bombs can't scratch it. Its weapons are technologies you thought were only theoretical and their firepower is such that no armor can stop them. It both underlines WHY the Gundam (and GM) were game-changers for the One Year War and why Zeon was absolutely TERRIFIED of the Gundam as the war progressed. It was a seemingly unstoppable one-man army.

Aldnoah.Zero did the same concept way better, but for Gundam it's not a bad try even if the characters are underdeveloped and just barely lacking in self-awareness to the point that they don't realize they're the baddies. RfV is definitely not a title for someone who doesn't enjoy the UC's version of Gundam though, since it does the bare minimum storywise to justify what's going on and the characters are mostly undeveloped.

I just don't think gundam is for me but i do like other mecha shows that arent focused around a gary stu/mary sue robot.

It's definitely not for everybody. Unfortunately, it set the tone for a lot of the genre so options for alternatives that don't follow its formula are fairly limited.

My personal favorite, Macross, is one of them... albeit one with a weird release schedule.

[pirx]

Its weapons are technologies you thought were only theoretical and their firepower is such that no armor can stop them.

And yet Zaku's heat hawk can block Gundam's beam saber somehow...

[domino]

Given the description "as the Gundams just solo the entire enemy army as usual?", I'd assume he's referring to quite a lot of titles where the Gundam presents as an overpowered and unstoppable force. Like Wing, SEED (as long as it's Kira), Witch from Mercury, Stardust Memory, Unicorn, etc.

....You could say this about the First Gundam (0079) as well. Gundam "Requiem for Vengeance" is more of a Zeon-POV horror but referring to it as a "Zaku murder simulator" is discrediting the work for what it is.

I encourage everyone to watch it yourself and come up with your own opinion.

Aldnoah.Zero did the same concept way better

I don't think we watched the same shows. AZ had super robots that almost defied physics and had to be defeated by a character who somehow had strategic thinking better than any other military mastermind (on the planet??) and in some cases pure luck. "Requiem for Vengeance" showed that the Gundam EX COULD be defeated and even pressured into a stalemate (see the exploding Zaku tank and fuel tank trick and the combined Zaku machinegun fire forcing the Gundam to take a defensive stance ... leading to the end result we saw) Compare that with AZ where the enemy super robots were literally invincible until a "deus ex machina" strategy was utilized (that for some reason was never tried before). In RfV we see that the Zeon pilots neither had the coordination or skill to defeat the Gundam EX as we can see from the various melee battles. Both Zakus and Goufs parried the Gundam beam saber and even dodged some attacks but not only was the Gundam EX more nimble and protected but also too skilled. In the end, the end result of the battle was pretty realistic (given the framing) and showed just how vulnerable it was all along. That's very very different from AZ.

I think as longtime fans of UC Gundam, we're very hard to please and while I will continue to say that RfV definitely had its flaws, centering them on it being a "Zaku murder simulator" is not doing it justice at all

Imo, compared to recent entries except Iron Blooded Orphans, I was glad to receive a main character that I'm at least slightly interested in knowing more about.

[Kuruni]

Its weapons are technologies you thought were only theoretical and their firepower is such that no armor can stop them.

And yet Zaku's heat hawk can block Gundam's beam saber somehow...

That has nothing to does with armor, but rathor the heat/plasma field generate when activate the heat weapon.

[Seto Kaiba]

....You could say this about the First Gundam (0079) as well.

As confirmed earlier, that is their meaning.

There's not much narrative appeal in seeing a boring invincible hero swagger around stomping on people who have no hope of stopping him, unless handled extraordinarily well.

Gundam "Requiem for Vengeance" is more of a Zeon-POV horror but referring to it as a "Zaku murder simulator" is discrediting the work for what it is.

In the final analysis, that borders on "distinction without difference".

A "Zaku murder simulator" title would be any title where a Gundam effortlessly mows down whole platoons of Zakus (or similar mook mecha).
A "Zeon POV horror" title would be... a title where a Gundam effortlessly mows down whole platoons of Zakus, with the perspective character being a Zeon soldier.

I don't think we watched the same shows. AZ had super robots that almost defied physics and had to be defeated by a character who somehow had strategic thinking better than any other military mastermind (on the planet??) and in some cases pure luck. "Requiem for Vengeance" showed that the Gundam EX COULD be defeated and even pressured into a stalemate (see the exploding Zaku tank and fuel tank trick and the combined Zaku machinegun fire forcing the Gundam to take a defensive stance ... leading to the end result we saw)

I think you're too hung up on the minutae to see my point about them having the same premise.

In both Aldnoah.Zero and Requiem for Vengeance, you have a scrappy group of protagonists who survived an initial overwhelming offensive by a single super-powerful enemy robot armed with technology beyond what was believed to be possible and have to find a way to fight back against that seemingly insurmountable foe through a combination of sheer dumb luck, good judgement, and a willingness to use anything at hand in ways a normal person wouldn't readily consider to overcome its technological advantage.

The important difference between the two being that Aldnoah.Zero is long enough to have an interesting story and properly developed characters (while also exploring several different permutations on the above theme), while Requiem for Vengeance is simply too short and has too much going on in the way of action set pieces to manage more than an excuse plot and minimal development for its unlikeable villain protagonist.

[domino]

I think you're being very dismissive by ignoring the context of my responses (I'm responding to the claim that it's nothing more than a "Zaku murder simulator") as well as reducing Gundam from its overall message against war to whether or not you liked a particular method of storytelling.

As confirmed earlier, that is their meaning.

There's not much narrative appeal in seeing a boring invincible hero swagger around stomping on people who have no hope of stopping him, unless handled extraordinarily well.

I have a very different interpretation of Gundam as advocating against the horrors of war by showcasing the experiences of soldiers on both sides of the war. So, while "First Gundam" could be reduced to "Zaku murder simulator" because it was an overpowered hero trouncing the villains, it could also be reduced to "monster of the week" because the show's heroes were pitted against a new unique foe on a regular basis. However both miss the "meaning" of "First Gundam".

I raised a valid criticism of "RfV" as a Zeon POV horror but as I'm sure you must realize, that's just a storytelling mechanic. Same can be said about "monster of the week" shows. Both eventually evolve into something else

I certainly agree that AZ had the benefit of a longer runtime to develop its characters but my point was - did they actually fulfill that goal?? In the second season, we still had no motivation or reason to like the MC besides that he's a Gary Stu now with a "magical" eye (that was also a mechanic to help explain how on Earth he could pull off these superhuman analytical feats). Mind you, I enjoyed AZ and rewatch it but let's not kid ourselves here.

I started by saying RfV has many flaws but is enjoyable if we don't look at the rest of Gundam through rose coloured glasses. Even 08th MS team suffered from some of the same issues with character development as this OVA does.

However, what I think they nailed was having a main character who we could empathize with (having lost her family due to war and taken away from her career to forcibly become a soldier in a war she did not ask for) and moreso it gave a MUCH better reason why she wanted to relate to the Gundam pilot which led to a shocking conclusion and an unexpected decision from the character. If you didn't like her that's fine but it's hard to deny that her motivations weren't clear and while hypocritical, we can understand why she made the decisions she made (from sparing the enemy to eventually choosing to stay on Earth)

We may not like RfV for its flaws but I think as longtime Gundam fans we're doing the community a disservice by not giving this OVA a fair shake.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think you're being very dismissive by ignoring the context of my responses (I'm responding to the claim that it's nothing more than a "Zaku murder simulator") as well as reducing Gundam from its overall message against war to whether or not you liked a particular method of storytelling.

I'm not ignoring the context of your responses. As I indicated in my previous response, I feel that much of your defense of RfV's storytelling as "POV horror" is distinction without difference. It's two different names for essentially the same thing.

I have a very different interpretation of Gundam as advocating against the horrors of war by showcasing the experiences of soldiers on both sides of the war. So, while "First Gundam" could be reduced to "Zaku murder simulator" because it was an overpowered hero trouncing the villains, it could also be reduced to "monster of the week" because the show's heroes were pitted against a new unique foe on a regular basis. However both miss the "meaning" of "First Gundam".

Attaching an explanation to a boring invincible hero's boring invincibleness doesn't really make them NOT a boring invincible hero, though.

As I said, in order to tell a compelling story with that kind of thing in play you have to have an extraordinarily good writing team. Thankfully, the first Gundam series has that so the Gundam's status as an unstoppable weapon is counterbalanced by the people using it being a pack of kids and inexperienced young soldiers who were ridiculously outnumbered.

Requiem for Vengenace doesn't really do an effective job of counterbalancing the Gundam's invincible-ness for most of the story against what's going on with the characters. It doesn't struggle, the story depends on it being a giant mechanical implacable man and that can make for a visually impressive fight... but it's also boring as hell if you think about it even a little.

It did not help that the show is too short to give any of its characters more than the most minimal development, so we mostly watch a series of stock character cliches run away from the stock character monster for the best part of six episodes.

It's very pretty, but that's all it is. A "beautiful void" with no story worth commenting on, but some impressive visuals.

[domino]

Ah I realize now that you're holding fast to your view without actually reading my responses. That's fine. We all have different perspectives and that's what makes the fandom exciting however I'll end that in my opinion I think RfV deserves a fair shake and is nothing like what you describe.

Put simply, RfV does a good job (in my opinion) of portraying Gundam's continuous narrative that war is scary and senseless however we humans can overcome the tragedy of war by seeking to better understand each other. The main character and her motivations are a good reflection of that narrative including her abrupt decision to stay on Earth which is both hypocritical and nonsensical. Unfortunately, we know her own desire to end the war and save other children like her son and the Gundam pilot will continue to be a reason for the war continuing for decades.

RfV does have several weaknesses like over-glorifying the mecha battles, introducing characters just so they can become fodder and of course, the ugly CG animations. It all feels rushed. Oh and the Zeon/Nazi analogy is a bit tired since MS Igloo

Let's review how you missed my points in several ways

I'm not ignoring the context of your responses. As I indicated in my previous response, I feel that much of your defense of RfV's storytelling as "POV horror" is distinction without difference. It's two different names for essentially the same thing.

Then you did miss the context. I didn't say that to defend RfV. I said that was a valid criticism. My defence was that even with its short screen time, the character development was there even though you kept saying it's not. You clearly understand their motivations. I'd only suggest comparing the storytelling to the often referenced "Heroes Journey".

Attaching an explanation to a boring invincible hero's boring invincibleness doesn't really make them NOT a boring invincible hero, though.

But you raised AZ as an example of good storytelling when their MC is a Gary Stu? None of that is in RfV. I suppose you wanted more from the Gundam pilot's character which is certainly fair. I would've definitely liked to see more from the Federation side like how 08th MS team was able to flesh out the Zeon perspective with Aina and Norris.

Requiem for Vengenace doesn't really do an effective job of counterbalancing the Gundam's invincible-ness for most of the story against what's going on with the characters. It doesn't struggle, the story depends on it being a giant mechanical implacable man and that can make for a visually impressive fight... but it's also boring as hell if you think about it even a little.

It's a storytelling mechanic where the lead characters struggle *against* an imposing force - which in this case is the Gundam.

To me, the visuals for RfV are actually where it's lacking a lot in a 2024 release. The true gem is embracing the struggle of this Zeon pilot and her team as they retreat from the Earth front and wonder to yourself, as the opening scene in the "First Gundam" asked,.... "Who will survive?"

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah I realize now that you're holding fast to your view without actually reading my responses. That's fine.

Oh, I'm reading your responses... but I'm honestly not seeing anything I would consider a cogent argument for my having judged RfV unfairly.

I am somewhat bemused to see that, for once, I and the professional critics seem to be on the same page WRT the series being visually impressive in most respects but lacking in the story department beyond the pro forma basics of a UC Gundam story.

Put simply, RfV does a good job (in my opinion) of portraying Gundam's continuous narrative that war is scary and senseless however we humans can overcome the tragedy of war by seeking to better understand each other. The main character and her motivations are a good reflection of that narrative including her abrupt decision to stay on Earth which is both hypocritical and nonsensical. Unfortunately, we know her own desire to end the war and save other children like her son and the Gundam pilot will continue to be a reason for the war continuing for decades.

I'd disagree that it does a good job of portraying war as senseless... a good portion of episode three is, in fact, devoted to the Zeon characters sitting down and making sense of the conflict they're in. It's one of the most frustrating moments in the series and home to some of its worst writing, as we watch the Zeon invasion forces narrowly evade the realization that they're the villains. Unlike previous Zeon protagonists Bernie Wiseman and Oliver May, this lot aren't conveniently uninvolved in Zeon's many war crimes. Actually having the Heel Realization could've taken these characters in a very interesting direction, but instead they weakly rationalize away being the aggressors in the war and their complicitcy in the massacre of billions.

Also, if a character's making nonsensical decisions, that's called bad writing... unless they've recently suffered a blow to the head and are delerious.

RfV does have several weaknesses like over-glorifying the mecha battles, introducing characters just so they can become fodder and of course, the ugly CG animations. It all feels rushed.

That is, without exaggeration, the point of it. The mecha battles are the Why of this series. It's a showpony meant to show off animation technology via impressive Mobile Suit battles. The whole series is built around the action-friendly premise of showing what the Gundam's badassery looks like from the other side. It exists to justify the Gundam's reputation as the White Devil that struck fear into the heart of the Zeon army.

Introducing characters so they can be killed off for cheap pathos is pretty standard mecha anime behavior. If anything, the pathos potential is quite limited by the fact that the folks doing the dying are Zeon Earth Attack Force troops and therefore definitely NOT someone who didn't have a beam saber to the face coming.

Oh and the Zeon/Nazi analogy is a bit tired since MS Igloo

I'd like to call that a critical part of Zeon's identity... but it's basically their ENTIRE identity if we're being honest with each other.

There is a little bit of World War I German Empire mixed in there, but every aspect of Zeon is so heavily colored by their parallels to Nazi Germany that there's really no separating them from the label of "Space Nazi". It's very VERY deliberate on the part of Gundam's creators (who are clearly VERY well versed in history) and it informs so many aspects of their depiction in so many stories. Even the story reason the original series ended up being "monster of the week" is couched in direct parallels to Nazi Germany's history. I don't want to get too much into the philosophical parallels between the two authoritarian national socialist powers fighting expansionist wars of aggression underpinned by master race derived from pseudoscience, but let it be said that it's no surprise Gihren is pleased to be compared to Hitler.

Then you did miss the context. I didn't say that to defend RfV. I said that was a valid criticism. My defence was that even with its short screen time, the character development was there even though you kept saying it's not. You clearly understand their motivations. I'd only suggest comparing the storytelling to the often referenced "Heroes Journey".

No, I did not... the problem is your counterargument is... well... not much of an argument. There is almost no character development. What little we get to humanize Iria Solari is just that she has (or had) a family and a career before joining the military. Nothing that couldn't be reasonably inferred about literally any of the characters around her. None of the characters are around long enough to be more than shallow stock character archetypes. Comparing this mess to Campbell's narrative framework for the Hero's Journey is pretty nonsensical as most of the steps in that are not present in RfV at all.

But you raised AZ as an example of good storytelling when their MC is a Gary Stu? None of that is in RfV. I suppose you wanted more from the Gundam pilot's character which is certainly fair. I would've definitely liked to see more from the Federation side like how 08th MS team was able to flesh out the Zeon perspective with Aina and Norris.

Aldnoah.Zero's plot stands head and shoulders above this short series in no small part because it has the runtime to properly develop all of the main characters. Even if the protagonist is seemingly hypercompetent, or at least possessed of supernaturally good judgement, there's still so much more opportunity to develop them as a person in the story with four times the runtime.

That's the difference I've been pointing out that you keep missing. RfV is too short to develop any of its characters properly, so even though both the AZ and RfV protagonists have a similar sort of struggle in the show's plot one of them gets developed to the point of having a compelling story where the other is so short that it feels more like an excuse plot to string a bunch of action set pieces together.

It's a storytelling mechanic where the lead characters struggle *against* an imposing force - which in this case is the Gundam.

You seem to have missed that I pointed out that's a valid storytelling technique if handled properly. RfV doesn't, because there is nothing in the story to counterbalance the invincible-ness of the Gundam to make it seem like the characters are surviving by anything other than authorial fiat.

In the original series, and Zeta, and ZZ... ... ... in a LOT of UC Gundam titles what counterbalances the amazing and often near-invincible nature of the Gundam being hugely outnumbered by far more experienced forces and having to protect a more vulnerable ship or base. There's none of that in RfV, because the Gundam there is essentially just out hunting. There are no stakes for the Gundam.

To me, the visuals for RfV are actually where it's lacking a lot in a 2024 release. The true gem is embracing the struggle of this Zeon pilot and her team as they retreat from the Earth front and wonder to yourself, as the opening scene in the "First Gundam" asked,.... "Who will survive?"

Ironically, the visuals are essentially what this series is about. It's a glorified demo reel for using Unreal technology in film. That's why the trailers make a point of saying it was animated in Unreal.

It's showcasing why the Gundam inspired such fear in the Principality's forces, with its overwhelming firepower and seeming invulnerability, but from the villain's perspective. That's why the focus characters are Earth Attack Force troops this time. They're not good people. These are the soldiers of the most evil regime in human history and their situation's gonna get ugly... but in a very graphically impressive way.

[domino]

Here's how what we saw in RfV aligns with the heroes journey and the character development that we saw in a nutshell
- Call to Adventure (Iria swoops in to save the Zeon forces who walked into a trap)
- Refusal of the call (Typically the hero is reluctant to take up the call to adventure due to an internal conflict which isn't revealed until Episode 3 - she left her musical profession against her will to join the military)
- Meeting the Mentor (Iria and team arrive at the junkyard and are able to continue their mission to continue defending the retreating forces)
- Crossing the threshold (Iria and team are finally able to fight back against the Gundam and make progress in doing so by crippling the GM. They are then given an impossible mission to steal the GMs)
- Tests, allies and enemies (Iria's motivation to retreat is tested when she meets the Gundam pilot Newtype who obviously recognizes her but returns her heirloom. Iria's earlier internal conflict is intensified because she does not want to kill a child - and believes she is fighting to protect her child)
- The approach to the inmost cave (not applicable)
- The ordeal (this is the final battle where Iria is fighting two battles - one to protect her retreating comrades while also trying to come to terms with the Gundam pilot. We see how that ends)
- The reward (Iria receives no reward and instead has to face the futility of her efforts hence why she takes no joy in the defeat of the Gundam pilot - because she no longer sees the Gundam as a monster but just a misguided child who shouldn't be fighting in the war at all. She yelled in frustration at being unable to stop the Gouf from killing the Gundam pilot after all - a major departure from the Iria we met at the beginning)

There are more sections for the Heroes journey but RfV doesn't give any conclusion for Iria and her journey except for a halfhearted epilogue that she joins the African front.

I didn't think I needed to spell out the above but we saw Iria change from a "by-the-books" Zeon pilot who just wanted to return to her family to eventually risking her command by first showing mercy to the Federation pilots and then breaking rank by trying to communicate with the Gundam pilot due to her own desire to fight the war to protect her child. Since she failed at that she made the contradictory decision to stay on Earth in her misguided belief that she will actually save more children from the tragedy of war. We know she is foolish to believe so which adds to the foolishness of the entire conflict.

Besides what you say, there's Gundam the glorified mecha anime and there's the message behind Gundam. It's weird that you can't see that analogy but accept the comparison of Zeon being the Nazi. Of course Zeon was a reflection of WW2 Nazi but there's soooo much more to the Zeon struggle for the independence of spacenoids that goes beyond what the Nazis believed.

Again, RfV isn't perfect but it's nothing like you state. I wish I could outline the above for AZ's MC but we never see his motivation change even. Furthermore, as I said before, the critique you have of RfV can be given to many other Gundam shows before it so it seems you have it out for this series in particular for some reason. It's a wonder that you're a Gundam/Macross fan at all.

Maybe you're upset that RfV didn't spell out everything but I hope I helped above? If not then continue with your assessment.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything more I can say on this. Good journey

[Deacon Blues]

Folks are pretty harsh on those too... I don't think I've seen any criticisms of Requiem for Vengeance that I'd call unfair or unduly harsh.

Oh, I can think of a lot.

A lot of people are making assumptions about the production process and are so off the mark it's funny. We've had a handful of people assuming that this project only entered into production last July when this was announced (mainly because of when UE5 was released, too) to a whole host of other criticisms over what they think was involved in the process (which was flat out wrong).

[Seto Kaiba]

Oh, I can think of a lot.

A lot of people are making assumptions about the production process and are so off the mark it's funny. We've had a handful of people assuming that this project only entered into production last July when this was announced (mainly because of when UE5 was released, too) to a whole host of other criticisms over what they think was involved in the process (which was flat out wrong).

Interesting... I'm guessing a lot of that is Comment Section action? I tend to stay away from those because of the inherent toxicity.

Here's how what we saw in RfV aligns with the heroes journey and the character development that we saw in a nutshell
- Call to Adventure (Iria swoops in to save the Zeon forces who walked into a trap)
- Refusal of the call (Typically the hero is reluctant to take up the call to adventure due to an internal conflict which isn't revealed until Episode 3 - she left her musical profession against her will to join the military)
- Meeting the Mentor (Iria and team arrive at the junkyard and are able to continue their mission to continue defending the retreating forces)
- Crossing the threshold (Iria and team are finally able to fight back against the Gundam and make progress in doing so by crippling the GM. They are then given an impossible mission to steal the GMs)
- Tests, allies and enemies (Iria's motivation to retreat is tested when she meets the Gundam pilot Newtype who obviously recognizes her but returns her heirloom. Iria's earlier internal conflict is intensified because she does not want to kill a child - and believes she is fighting to protect her child)
- The approach to the inmost cave (not applicable)
- The ordeal (this is the final battle where Iria is fighting two battles - one to protect her retreating comrades while also trying to come to terms with the Gundam pilot. We see how that ends)
- The reward (Iria receives no reward and instead has to face the futility of her efforts hence why she takes no joy in the defeat of the Gundam pilot - because she no longer sees the Gundam as a monster but just a misguided child who shouldn't be fighting in the war at all. She yelled in frustration at being unable to stop the Gouf from killing the Gundam pilot after all - a major departure from the Iria we met at the beginning)

An interesting perspective. I'm not sure I agree with many points of it. Particularly the Call to Adventure and Refusal of the Call. Iria's backstory as a civilian is well in the past with respect to this plot, and she's a volunteer not a conscript, which means she did not refuse the call... she jumped at it, in both the immediate sense of being absolutely ready to jump into action right away and in terms of having joined Zeon's armed forces all on her own.

Similarly, I don't think there's any character at the junk depot that fills the role of a mentor. Nobody more proficient in the art of war than her or even just more experienced. She just has a tyrannical martinet of a base commander and that mechanic with almost no personality who doesn't offer any real advice... he just reiterates points of Zeon propaganda about how they're fighting for home and family.

I didn't think I needed to spell out the above but we saw Iria change from a "by-the-books" Zeon pilot who just wanted to return to her family to eventually risking her command by first showing mercy to the Federation pilots and then breaking rank by trying to communicate with the Gundam pilot due to her own desire to fight the war to protect her child. Since she failed at that she made the contradictory decision to stay on Earth in her misguided belief that she will actually save more children from the tragedy of war. We know she is foolish to believe so which adds to the foolishness of the entire conflict.

I don't think we really saw any change from her. She's not established as a by-the-book line commander, but as an elite military ace and a veteran of Loum. That puts her more in "Military maverick" territory. Her unit, her callsign, and her custom Zaku also all use Wolf symbolism. Her unit are Red Wolves, she is "Alpha Wolf", and her Zaku's got wolf ears on it. Female wolves are a very old symbol for motherhood. Think back to the myth of the founding of Rome with Romulus and Remus being nursed by a she-wolf. Her unit are her surrogate children, whom she cares about and protects to unreasonable ends. The Gundam pilot, being a child, simply invokes the same motherly behavior from her.

It's not a change in her character, it's consistency in her character both directly and symbolically.

Besides what you say, there's Gundam the glorified mecha anime and there's the message behind Gundam. It's weird that you can't see that analogy but accept the comparison of Zeon being the Nazi. Of course Zeon was a reflection of WW2 Nazi but there's soooo much more to the Zeon struggle for the independence of spacenoids that goes beyond what the Nazis believed.

That's the thing... there really isn't.

There's an element of Multiple Choice Past to it thanks to multiple, conflicting depictions in different media but while Side 3's petition for autonomy may have started out sincere under Zeon Zum Deikun, it was little more than a flimsy pretext for war once the Zabi family (maybe) assassinated him and completed Side 3's descent from a democratic republic to a fascist autocracy. The Zabi family further radicalized Zeon Zum Deikun's Ereist and Side Nationalist views and "Zeonism" became intrinsically associated with Spacenoid "Master Race" ideology in addition to the idea of Zeon being a autonomous state.

Once the Zabi family's hold on power was solidified and Degwin stepped back and effectively left rulership to his children, it was de facto head of state Gihren Zabi who launched the One Year War. He used independence and autonomy for Zeon as a pretext to declare war, but his actual goal was explicitly noted to be conquest and genocide. Gihren's goals were twofold:

1. Overthrow the Earth Federation in its entirety and extend Zeon's autocratic rule over the entire Earth Sphere in the name of placing humanity under the leadership of the "Chosen People" (Zeon spacenoids).
2. Carry out a mass genocide of Earthnoids AND Spacenoids in order to reduce the Human population, and then subsequently harshly regulate the Human population via autocratic rule by the "Chosen People" of Zeon in order to protect Earth's environment.

For all that the more gullible members of Zeon's armed forces might've bought the wholly insincere line about independence, the reality was that the Principality's war was all about lebensraum (the annexation of the rest of the Earth Sphere) and master race ideology centered on spacenoids and newtypes. Both were used as a justification for a declaration of war against the Federation and the ensuing genocide. Gihren's ideology is noted to have been the inspiration for Jamitov Hymem's almost identical plan in Zeta Gundam, as well as many Neo Zeon groups that continue his ideal and seek to overthrow the Federation. It was also an inspiration for other groups like Cosmo Babylonia and the Zanscare Empire in their attempts to genocide Humanity for Earth's sake.

In past works, Zeon soldiers have been much more aware of the actual objectives of Zeon's leaders. RfV dialed it down because it would make Iria Solari et. al. straight-up villain protagonists if their introspective discussion about the reason for the war touched on the REAL reasons for the war given in most titles that have a Zeon perspective character.

[ORegan]

Interesting... I'm guessing a lot of that is Comment Section action? I tend to stay away from those because of the inherent toxicity.

You should see all the things people been complaining about on pretty much all of social media. Dudes who've been watching Gundam for decades complaining about a character with pink hair while in the same breath asking Haman Karn to step on them. Granted, there's a lot to rightly call out. That one shot with the rifle double clipping into itself comes to mind.

- Call to Adventure (Iria swoops in to save the Zeon forces who walked into a trap)

I wouldn't consider the initial battle or her enlistment as the "call to action/adventure." The initial operation is character introductions for the Red Wolves and her enlistment is just background information on her recent past. I would slate the Gundam's initial attack as the Call to Action because it's the goal for the narrative journey we see in the actual show. .

Similarly, I don't think there's any character at the junk depot that fills the role of a mentor. Nobody more proficient in the art of war than her or even just more experienced. She just has a tyrannical martinet of a base commander and that mechanic with almost no personality who doesn't offer any real advice... he just reiterates points of Zeon propaganda about how they're fighting for home and family.

The chief mechanic is, unfortunately, supposed to be the mentor/wise older character. The writing doesn't pull it off since his amounts to the "mentorship" is the "both sides have valid reasons to fight" thing that only works if this is your first entry into U.C. Would've been nice if he gave some sort of insight beyond that and relaying radio chatter. For what it's worth I also wouldn't consider the base commander a tyrant.

I didn't think I needed to spell out the above but we saw Iria change from a "by-the-books" Zeon pilot who just wanted to return to her family to eventually risking her command by first showing mercy to the Federation pilots and then breaking rank by trying to communicate with the Gundam pilot due to her own desire to fight the war to protect her child. Since she failed at that she made the contradictory decision to stay on Earth in her misguided belief that she will actually save more children from the tragedy of war. We know she is foolish to believe so which adds to the foolishness of the entire conflict.

Honestly, I feel like she's somewhat more oblivious than anything else. She's the leader of an elite MS unit that has taken out multiple "fleets" of ships at Loum, meaning she's been an active operative in/during some of Zeon's most notorious crimes against humanity. She really just closed her eyes while everyone around her was slaughtering billions (including children) and she's only mad at the EFF for making a magic child fight. Could've at least had a similar moment to Dozle's flawed mental gymnastics to cope with his actions in Origin before jumping on that high-horse.

[Seto Kaiba]

You should see all the things people been complaining about on pretty much all of social media. Dudes who've been watching Gundam for decades complaining about a character with pink hair while in the same breath asking Haman Karn to step on them. Granted, there's a lot to rightly call out. That one shot with the rifle double clipping into itself comes to mind.

Somehow, I suspect my life with be significantly more peaceful if I do NOT see all the things they're complaining about.

I did gripe a bit about that one soldier with all the tattoos and the dyed hair, but only because she sticks out like a sore thumb because she's the only Zeon soldier not in dress code for some reason so she looks really out of place against all the other Zeon troops.

The chief mechanic is, unfortunately, supposed to be the mentor/wise older character. The writing doesn't pull it off since his amounts to the "mentorship" is the "both sides have valid reasons to fight" thing that only works if this is your first entry into U.C. Would've been nice if he gave some sort of insight beyond that and relaying radio chatter. For what it's worth I also wouldn't consider the base commander a tyrant.

If so, then yeah... as you said, the writing definitely DOES NOT pull it off. He doesn't really offer any sage advice or any guidance. He just dispenses some weak rationalizations for Zeon's invasion of the Earth sphere, at least as much if not more to convince himself as those around him.

(I didn't call him a tyrant, I called him a tyrannical martinet... which is a way of calling him an obsessively strict disciplinarian, to the "screw what's right, I'm following the rules" level. The only thing that stops him from having the Zakus his team JUST built scrapped is a Federation attack timed to a nicety.)

Honestly, I feel like she's somewhat more oblivious than anything else. She's the leader of an elite MS unit that has taken out multiple "fleets" of ships at Loum, meaning she's been an active operative in/during some of Zeon's most notorious crimes against humanity. She really just closed her eyes while everyone around her was slaughtering billions (including children) and she's only mad at the EFF for making a magic child fight. Could've at least had a similar moment to Dozle's flawed mental gymnastics to cope with his actions in Origin before jumping on that high-horse.

That ties back into an earlier point I made about why previous Zeon-perspective stories like War in the Pocket and MS IGLOO always went out of their way to ensure that their protagonists were not involved in Zeon's war crimes. For the sake of comparison, let's look at Iria's predecessor Oliver May.

Oliver May is able to present his Zeon patriotism as naive and innocent, and his character arc ultimately makes it something he comes to regret. He's present for Zeon's greatest triumphs like Loum and its greatest moments of despair like Odessa and A Baoa Qu. He remains much more likeable as a character because, despite initially being willing to fight for his homeland, he's still reasonably objective about the war itself. He recognizes that mass slaughter in and of itself is abhorrent and he has enough moral fiber and backbone to not only recognize when Zeon is doing something awful, but to be disgusted by it and even to protest it when it's within his power to do so. When he finally takes up arms himself, it's not because he wanted to but because he was forced to and he does everything in his power to protect his own people rather than kill the enemy. Oliver May is, when the chips are down, a fundamentally decent person despite being a technical officer in the Zeon military.

Iria Solari, on the other hand, was a full-on Kool-Aid drinker who apparently signed up with the Zeon armed forces knowing that war was coming. She may have been a participant in the mass slaughter of the One Week Battle when Zeon launched its unprovoked attacks on Sides 1, 2, and 4. We know she fought at Loum a few days later, where she made a name for herself and her unit with their fearsome tally of destroyed Federation ships. We see that she doesn't really have any qualms when it comes to killing, and that she's willing to rationalize the war and the atrocities she's seen and been a part of as necessary for the defense of home and family. She doesn't start to question anything about the war properly until she learns the Gundam pilot is a child. Even that is rather hypocritical given that, as a volunteer and a mother, she's almost certainly aware that Zeon has paramilitary "youth brigades" that exist to groom kids into de facto child soldiers. She's not the most awful person in the setting... not as long as the likes of Gihren, Bask Om, etc. are around... but she's still presented as generally unbothered by being a foot soldier for a genocidal fascist dictatorship, which makes her a sh*tty person and easy to dislike even before we consider that she has almost no character development and that her one Pet the Dog moment is inherently hypocritical.

[Deacon Blues]

You should see all the things people been complaining about on pretty much all of social media. Dudes who've been watching Gundam for decades complaining about a character with pink hair while in the same breath asking Haman Karn to step on them. Granted, there's a lot to rightly call out. That one shot with the rifle double clipping into itself comes to mind.

Since this project started with an older version of Unreal Engine, I have a feeling that may have been a bug they just weren't able to go back and fix without reanimating an entire segment of the project. The entire thing was being worked on all at once, after all.

I did gripe a bit about that one soldier with all the tattoos and the dyed hair, but only because she sticks out like a sore thumb because she's the only Zeon soldier not in dress code for some reason so she looks really out of place against all the other Zeon troops.

Bianca Carlyle wants to have a word with you. You act so surprised that there's not the tolken character that isn't in proper military attire. It's literally a staple of every entry at this point.

Iria Solari, on the other hand, was a full-on Kool-Aid drinker who apparently signed up with the Zeon armed forces knowing that war was coming.

You may want to go back and revisit LeSean's comments about how she was drafted due to the mobilization order, so no, she wasn't a full-on Kool-Aid drinker. When they're talking about what she did prior to the war, he says "Cap was a really famous violinist before she got called up."

We see that she doesn't really have any qualms when it comes to killing, and that she's willing to rationalize the war and the atrocities she's seen and been a part of as necessary for the defense of home and family.

Um... did you totally miss the scene where she spared the GM pilot when he was down? If she really had no qualms, then she wouldn't have held back LeSean. You sound like you're projecting things here that just aren't a part of her character.

Even that is rather hypocritical given that, as a volunteer and a mother, she's almost certainly aware that Zeon has paramilitary "youth brigades" that exist to groom kids into de facto child soldiers.

As pointed out above, not a volunteer, but I highly doubt she'd be aware of kids being thrown in. Lore on this has been quite wishy-washy over the years. While we have people like Frederick Brown going to school and whatnot as a kid, we don't know how old he really is. He certainly seemed a smidge older than someone like Monique's brother in MS IGLOO, but even that was a shock to people like Kuspen in that moment. It's like they were borrowing what MS SENKI did with Brown (they were in school and learning) but just dumped them in way earlier than they should have.

She's not the most awful person in the setting... not as long as the likes of Gihren, Bask Om, etc. are around... but she's still presented as generally unbothered by being a foot soldier for a genocidal fascist dictatorship, which makes her a sh*tty person and easy to dislike even before we consider that she has almost no character development and that her one Pet the Dog moment is inherently hypocritical.

By your logic every Zeon character across every piece of media should be a "sh*tty" person by default. If you step back and look at how most Zeon soldiers are portrayed, you can see parallels to German soldiers: defense of the Homeland against foreign aggression. A lot of World War II research revealed that most German soldiers were not interested in the national socialism or the new order that Nazi leaders peddled and sought to impose upon Europe. Their worldviews, shaped by the violent exigencies of war, were largely shaped by the core group to which they belonged: their unit, their duty, the next battle, and their weapons of war. So yeah, you can have people like Solari that will have the whole disconnect from whatever the higher-ups are pushing. She's not all that different from people like Cuaran in the "Time Be Still" episode (and if you you take the HARDGRAPH manga with him as anything, he's just as "I'm here to do my job" as Solari is).

[domino]

You may want to go back and revisit LeSean's comments about how she was drafted due to the mobilization order, so no, she wasn't a full-on Kool-Aid drinker. When they're talking about what she did prior to the war, he says "Cap was a really famous violinist before she got called up."

Thanks for this. At one point I was starting to wonder if I watched a different version of the show!

The chief mechanic is, unfortunately, supposed to be the mentor/wise older character. The writing doesn't pull it off since his amounts to the "mentorship" is the "both sides have valid reasons to fight" thing that only works if this is your first entry into U.C. Would've been nice if he gave some sort of insight beyond that and relaying radio chatter. For what it's worth I also wouldn't consider the base commander a tyrant.

Yes I forgot to explicitly point that out but as much as his role could've been better handled, he served as a plot device for Iria and team to get regain their purpose as soldiers after a crushing defeat. Without his support (not necessarily guidance, training or advice as is typical in shonen-style), the hero (Iria) would've been narratively stuck.

[Seto Kaiba]

Bianca Carlyle wants to have a word with you. You act so surprised that there's not the tolken character that isn't in proper military attire. It's literally a staple of every entry at this point.

Thunderbolt is Thunderbolt... I barely count that hot mess as UC, though IIRC there's some fan disputes about whether it really is the same UC... no dog in that fight though.

There is usually some character who's not in strict military attire, but that's usually a civilian or some ace pilot with special privileges (e.g. any idiot in a mask). It feels more out-of-place here because the usual anime rules aren't in play. The uniforms are actually uniform for once and everyone's got the same kit for their role. It's much more realistic presentation similar to MS IGLOO, which makes the one person out of uniform stand out far more.

You may want to go back and revisit LeSean's comments about how she was drafted due to the mobilization order, so no, she wasn't a full-on Kool-Aid drinker. When they're talking about what she did prior to the war, he says "Cap was a really famous violinist before she got called up."

I went back, I revisited said comments, and you are indeed correct. They do mention she "got called up".

That said, I'd still say and the rest have bought the Zeon propaganda about the war being for home, family, and independence. On my first watch, I did miss that Alfie actually is the second character to mention that the war is actually about conquest. The unit commander from the first episode mentions it in his speech, but Alfie also casually mentions that Zeon invaded to "take Earth away from [the Federation]". Nobody seems to comment on that incongruity when Alfie course-corrects back to "independence, home, and family" either... though they do jokingly accuse him of being an Earth sympathizer when he mentions Zeon are the aggressors in the war.

Lore on this has been quite wishy-washy over the years. While we have people like Frederick Brown going to school and whatnot as a kid, we don't know how old he really is. He certainly seemed a smidge older than someone like Monique's brother in MS IGLOO, but even that was a shock to people like Kuspen in that moment. It's like they were borrowing what MS SENKI did with Brown (they were in school and learning) but just dumped them in way earlier than they should have.

Given that Zeon's youth brigades are clearly modeled on Nazi Germany's Hitler Youth, I don't think that's necessarily a contradictory prospect... youth enrolled in the HJ were of school age and attending school. It was essentially an afterschool indoctrination program for ages 10-18. If it REALLY parallels the HJ completely, then participation would've been mandatory for anyone under 18. Some remarks I found in one of the MS IGLOO artbooks (Graphic File) suggest that there is probably something akin to that going on in Zeon, though it's framed as a broader "education" program to produce useful citizens and described only in vague terms.

By your logic every Zeon character across every piece of media should be a "sh*tty" person by default. If you step back and look at how most Zeon soldiers are portrayed, you can see parallels to German soldiers: defense of the Homeland against foreign aggression.

... are you seriously arguing that the goose-stepping soldiers of a genocidal autocracy aren't? UC Gundam practically has a dedicated trope for the one Zeon character in a given story who's actually a decent person unlike their colleagues. They recently did an ENTIRE MOVIE that could be said to be an example of the principle writ large: Cucuruz Doan's Island.

There's a reason that, in previous works like MS IGLOO and War in the Pocket, the writers took steps to ensure that the Zeon protagonists of the piece were uninvolved in Zeon's war crimes and generally speaking not true believers in its philosophy either. Bernie's an academy fresh-out and Oliver May's a noncombatant. That's very different to Solari's case, as she's established to been a unit leader at Loum and thus was likely involved in the mass slaughter of the One Week Battle where nuclear-armed Zakus were used to destroy colonies en masse.

"I was just following orders" is no defense, literally and legally. Following an illegal order is still committing a crime and it's worth remembering that the soldiers in Requiem for Vengeance are part of an invasion force that racked up an all-time world record for most war crimes. They might've just been following orders, but that doesn't make what they did any less criminal. That's why so many of them legged it instead of surrendering.

[Deacon Blues]

Thunderbolt is Thunderbolt... I barely count that hot mess as UC, though IIRC there's some fan disputes about whether it really is the same UC... no dog in that fight though.

Whatever fabled standing is irrelevant. Still doesn't change the fact that a character like her is present.

There is usually some character who's not in strict military attire, but that's usually a civilian or some ace pilot with special privileges (e.g. any idiot in a mask) It feels more out-of-place here because the usual anime rules aren't in play. The uniforms are actually uniform for once and everyone's got the same kit for their role. It's much more realistic presentation similar to MS IGLOO, which makes the one person out of uniform stand out far more.

But we're just going to overlook the jeans and jacket GM/Gundam pilots not being in proper uniforms? C'mon dude.

That said, I'd still say and the rest have bought the Zeon propaganda about the war being for home, family, and independence. On my first watch, I did miss that Alfie actually is the second character to mention that the war is actually about conquest. The unit commander from the first episode mentions it in his speech, but Alfie also casually mentions that Zeon invaded to "take Earth away from [the Federation]". Nobody seems to comment on that incongruity when Alfie course-corrects back to "independence, home, and family" either... though they do jokingly accuse him of being an Earth sympathizer when he mentions Zeon are the aggressors in the war.

You also have to notice how the assembled team for the little speech cuts the commander off entirely by singling out the Red Wolves. You don't cut off an "impassioned" speech like that and call out your saviors unless you aren't buying it. I don't think anyone in that battalion was buying the slop Stein was peddling.

Given that Zeon's youth brigades are clearly modeled on Nazi Germany's Hitler Youth, I don't think that's necessarily a contradictory prospect... youth enrolled in the HJ were of school age and attending school. It was essentially an afterschool indoctrination program for ages 10-18. If it REALLY parallels the HJ completely, then participation would've been mandatory for anyone under 18. Some remarks I found in one of the MS IGLOO artbooks (Graphic File) suggest that there is probably something akin to that going on in Zeon, though it's framed as a broader "education" program to produce useful citizens and described only in vague terms.

My point is that not every soldier would be aware of something like that.

... are you seriously arguing that the goose-stepping soldiers of a genocidal autocracy aren't? UC Gundam practically has a dedicated trope for the one Zeon character in a given story who's actually a decent person unlike their colleagues. They recently did an ENTIRE MOVIE that could be said to be an example of the principle writ large: Cucuruz Doan's Island.

Cucuruz Doan is Cucuruz Doan... I barely count that hot mess as UC, though IIRC there's some fan disputes about whether it really is the same UC... no dog in that fight though.

There's a reason that, in previous works like MS IGLOO and War in the Pocket, the writers took steps to ensure that the Zeon protagonists of the piece were uninvolved in Zeon's war crimes and generally speaking not true believers in its philosophy either. Bernie's an academy fresh-out and Oliver May's a noncombatant. That's very different to Solari's case, as she's established to been a unit leader at Loum and thus was likely involved in the mass slaughter of the One Week Battle where nuclear-armed Zakus were used to destroy colonies en masse.

Oliver May is not a noncombatant. He falls under the engineering branch, which is still classified as a combat branch. If he were in something like transportation, supply/logistics, medical, etc then yeah, he'd fall into that category. But, going back to an earlier comment, you try saying his Zeon patriotism is naive and innocent when that's not the case at all. May was full-on with lofty aspirations to contribute to Zeon's independence war through weapons development. You can't claim he has ignorance when he's actively developing these ridiculous weapons. Sure, political machinations interfere to such an extent that it can hardly be called a proper weapons development environment, and that confuses the hell out of him, but since when haven't we had tech people questioning why things don't go the way they want to? Also, here's the thing I don't get. Everyone automatically assumes that anyone involved at Loum took part in the gassing of the colonies. Did people forget that there was a HUGE ass fleet battle (one that never reached those numbers again)? While the ENG dub says "fleets at Loum," the JPN actually clarifies this as individual ships. You're not taking out ships and still gassing a colony. If she was involved in that battle, I'm fairly certain we would've gotten a much different backstory/subconscious tick from her character.

Bernie can play the dumb card. It's so late in the war, he's so full-on supposed war stories that yeah, he can be completely clueless to how things are going, it's no different than the civilians from Libot being that far out of the loop and making up things whole cloth.

"I was just following orders" is no defense, literally and legally. Following an illegal order is still committing a crime and it's worth remembering that the soldiers in Requiem for Vengeance are part of an invasion force that racked up an all-time world record for most war crimes. They might've just been following orders, but that doesn't make what they did any less criminal. That's why so many of them legged it instead of surrendering.

And this is where discourse goes off the rails, accusations and whatnot get thrown around about Zeon apologia, etc. Military members are required to follow all lawful orders, but they are obligated to disobey unlawful ones. Yes, we know that. I'm not advocating anything one way or another here. It's a cartoon and all this is just hogwash in the end. Where does one draw the line between a legal order and an illegal one? Gassing a colony, sure. That's clear cut, and we have B-class war criminal branding to justify this (though it does make me wonder what the other classifications are). But, arguably, any other order would be "illegal" by default, or at least they are in the Federation's eyes. Putting on a uniform and never seeing combat still makes you a criminal. If you take the lore as anything, things change. But, this is where things get muddled. Arguably, the Federation acknowledged Side 3 as being legally separate by signing the Antarctic Treaty with them, thus outside of Zeon attacking civilians and whatnot, most things would fall into normal rules of engagement for war...ish.

[ORegan]

I did gripe a bit about that one soldier with all the tattoos and the dyed hair, but only because she sticks out like a sore thumb because she's the only Zeon soldier not in dress code for some reason so she looks really out of place against all the other Zeon troops.

She looks out of place because her entire squad died. I wouldn’t doubt they all looked just as raggedy as she did. Even so, uniform regulations aren't usually as strict in active combat because there’s more important things to worry about. Like the dudes shooting at you probably take priority over a properly fastened shirt collar. The face and neck tats probably ain't regulation, but Helena from Code Fairy has some body tats so it's likely Zeon follows some modern military policies in regards to tattoos; as long as they ain't visible when properly wearing the uniform they don't really care. Hailey's(Why do they ALL start with H!?) profile on the RfV website states she's been reprimanded several times specifically for her "punk style" to make her the cool biker chick or whatever, so it seems the brass was already in the process of hitting her with some books. Though, that could be specifically for the uniform and dyed hair if she received a wavier specifically for the tattoos. Then again, it's also the Zeon military so if she just does enough cool stuff she'll get to have her own uniform.

My point is that not every soldier would be aware of something like that.

Wasn't the first mention of Zeon child soldiers in MSG? Ramba Ral states something along the lines that both sides fielding children is becoming more commonplace. But he's also saying it to Clamp, his second in command, so that does corroborate everyone not being aware.

But, we are going to have to make a very clear distinction between Zeon and their real-world inspiration. The "Clean Wehrmacht" notion has been pretty handedly proven untrue for decades. Even if you believe the 'just following orders' reasoning, a whoooole bunch of German soldiers still committed crimes against humanity just to follow the chain of command. And they were also the most coordinated group of methheads the world has ever seen which may have helped in their moral complacency. IDK, never done meth to give a firsthand account on that.

The same isn’t really true of Zeon soldiers. Regardless of if a particular member of their military was a staunch Zabi loyalist or simply an enlistee believing the baseline propaganda that they need to defend their home from the corrupt earth elite, I don't think most Zeon personnel were involved in the gassing/nuking of colonies or the colony drop. It still 100% requires a whole circus routine of mental gymnastics to continue fighting or enlist after the fact, but maybe the propaganda was just THAT good? Or maybe the Antarctic Treaty allowed Zeonic citizens to believe that the atrocities were over, and they could now fight fairly? Space Meth?

Whatever the case is, we do know that Zeon soldiers, aside from the Zabi's and a mixed bag of higher rankings officers, are usually portrayed in a fairly neutral light. Obviously, some moral scrutiny should go the way of characters present and actively fighting during War Crime o’clock such as the Red Wolves, but I honestly don’t think we need to demonize Zeon characters during the OYW unless a specific one is absolutely reprehensible or, in Iria’s case, riding an undeserved high horse.

[Seto Kaiba]

You also have to notice how the assembled team for the little speech cuts the commander off entirely by singling out the Red Wolves. You don't cut off an "impassioned" speech like that and call out your saviors unless you aren't buying it. I don't think anyone in that battalion was buying the slop Stein was peddling.

They cut him off, sure... but only by getting to where he was already going before he could (and in a more enthusiastic manner).

My point is that not every soldier would be aware of something like that.

And my point is that, if the Principality of Zeon's youth brigades are anything like the historical organization they're modeled on, it would be extremely difficult for anyone from Zeon to be unaware of their existence. The HJ was an organization that existed for years before the war, participation in its activities was mandatory for children ages 10 and up, and it featured quite heavily in propaganda before and during the war until the situation got so dire that they were mobilized to the front lines.

Side 3 was a Zabi dictatorship for around 11 years before the One Year War began. If the historical parallel holds, the youth brigades were likely part of Zeon life for almost that entire time, which would've made it quite impossible to not be aware of them.

Cucuruz Doan is Cucuruz Doan... I barely count that hot mess as UC, though IIRC there's some fan disputes about whether it really is the same UC... no dog in that fight though.

Nice.

Oliver May is not a noncombatant. He falls under the engineering branch, which is still classified as a combat branch. If he were in something like transportation, supply/logistics, medical, etc then yeah, he'd fall into that category.

Based on the org chart and other materials presented for MS IGLOO, I would strongly disagree with this assessment.

First and foremost, the org chart that shows how the Technical Division fits into the Zeon armed forces shows it as an organization independent from the three main branches of the Zeon armed forces. It reports directly to the General Staff Headquarters.

Second, it's noted that the 603rd Technical Evaluation Squadron and other units like it were only responsible for collecting and evaluating test data on the weapons under test. The crew of the Jotunheim is similarly noted to have had a role that only extended as far as transporting the prototypes under test and any relevant supplies. The actual operators of the test articles were soldiers "on loan" from the main combatant commands for use as test pilots. When actual non-test pilot combatants were eventually stationed aboard the Jotunheim, it's noted that they comprised a THIRD chain of command aboard the ship separate from the Technical Evaluation officers and ship's crew. It was not until the supreme desperation that preceded A Baoa Qu that the Technical Evaluation squadron were officially made combatants.

Third, it's explicitly acknowledged that the 603rd did not develop any of the weapons they field tested. Their role was simply to observe and to collect test data. That's part of why they were unaware that they weren't actually expected to produce results until they protested the waste of life and losing valuable prototypes. They didn't develop any of the prototypes themselves, so they were blissfully unaware that the prototypes they were field testing were mainly concept weapons that'd already been rejected for use and were simply being thrown at the enemy as a distraction until headquarters told them so. If they'd developed those weapons, they'd have known that the Zudah was actually a rejected Zaku I competitor instead of a next-gen MS at the start instead of having to learn it from a Federation broadcast.

Also, here's the thing I don't get. Everyone automatically assumes that anyone involved at Loum took part in the gassing of the colonies. Did people forget that there was a HUGE ass fleet battle (one that never reached those numbers again)? While the ENG dub says "fleets at Loum," the JPN actually clarifies this as individual ships. You're not taking out ships and still gassing a colony. If she was involved in that battle, I'm fairly certain we would've gotten a much different backstory/subconscious tick from her character.

Where do you think that "huge ass fleet" was before the Battle of Loum? Zeon only has tiny fraction of the population of the Federation (about 1/70th based on available numbers). It's not like they can just throw millions of soldiers around willy-nilly, and they were attacking Sides 1, 2, and 4 simultaneously. Given that a majority of the Zeon forces participated at Loum, it makes it quite likely that any soldier who participated in the One Week Battle also fought there.

Also, gas attacks were only a part of the destruction that went on during the One Week Battle. Many colonies destroyed during that period were just shot to pieces with explosives and beam weapons or destroyed by nuclear weapon-equipped MS-06C Zaku II's. The total number of Zakus available up to that point was only a few hundred machines (~84 A-types, ~236 C-types, and a small number of F-types), making it very likely that anyone who was a Zaku II pilot at the time of Loum was likely also operating a Zaku II in support of the attacks on Sides 1, 2, and 4.

Where does one draw the line between a legal order and an illegal one? Gassing a colony, sure. That's clear cut, and we have B-class war criminal branding to justify this (though it does make me wonder what the other classifications are).

Massacres of civilians would seem to be a slam dunk to any normal person... though Zeon seems to be extremely picky about it given that they got all up in arms against the Cima unit for gassing a colony for Operation British but are seemingly A-OK with blowing colonies up with nuclear bombs and shooting them to bits with beam cannons and conventional munitions.

It's enough to make you wonder what it was about the Cima unit that made Zeon say "You in particular should feel bad about what you've done, but not everyone else who did essentially the same thing."