The Macross Valkyrie Thread

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

For anyone who might be curious, I've done another in my series of partial translations of Variable Fighter Master File to finally sort out the difference(s) between the different types of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines that've been mentioned/described over the years:
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Do the improved/advanced versions of the VF-1 (VF-1X, VF-1X+, VF-1X++, VF-1EX) have the capability to reach escape velocity under their own power?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

So, I was just talking with a friend of mine about combat aircrafts, and he noted how weird is it that people rarely makes movies or games about machines like the A-4 Skyhawk, the Sabre and the F-5 while they have participated in some pretty important conflicts. Almost all of the attention centered around anything came after the F-14, and you might get the F-4, MiG-21 or Mirage here or there.

I could not help but to see the parallel with Macross. I mean, the VF-5000, VF-9 and VF-11 must have had been fantastic at their prime. Too bad that we almost always see them in action when they've become obsolete.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

False Prophet wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:16 am I could not help but to see the parallel with Macross. I mean, the VF-5000, VF-9 and VF-11 must have had been fantastic at their prime. Too bad that we almost always see them in action when they've become obsolete.
Hm... well, in Macross it's mostly because the franchise kind of skipped straight over the era where those VFs were the dominant machines in the New UN Forces arsenal on its way from the First Space War to 2040.

In part, it could be said that they're out of focus because there really weren't really any major conflicts in that era. That was the first two waves of emigrant fleets leaving Earth, with only some minor conflicts with rogue Zentradi in various places and the occasional small-time anti-government group livening up the tedium. There just weren't any major threats to face until the 2040s when Ivano Gunther stupidly dug up the Protodeviln and Gepernich got back on his bullsh*t trying to sustainably farm spiritia, followed by the Second Unification War, the Vajra War, and then the Windermerean invasion of the Brisingr globular cluster.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Seto Kaiba wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:06 am In part, it could be said that they're out of focus because there really weren't really any major conflicts in that era. That was the first two waves of emigrant fleets leaving Earth, with only some minor conflicts with rogue Zentradi in various places and the occasional small-time anti-government group livening up the tedium. There just weren't any major threats to face until the 2040s when Ivano Gunther stupidly dug up the Protodeviln and Gepernich got back on his bullsh*t trying to sustainably farm spiritia, followed by the Second Unification War, the Vajra War, and then the Windermerean invasion of the Brisingr globular cluster.
Yeah, and I really doubt that Kawamori will do any prequel, given Zero all all. Plus, there is always this spectacle of sizes when it comes to the conflict in his works. The stakes must always be very high.

Speaking of which, is it just me or does it feel like recent Macross hasn't give away a lot in term of spectacles? I mean, the dogfighting are fine enough, but there just aren't those little details that make me remember them for a long time. It is probably to keep animation budget low and saving ideas for the movies.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

False Prophet wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:29 am Yeah, and I really doubt that Kawamori will do any prequel, given Zero all all. Plus, there is always this spectacle of sizes when it comes to the conflict in his works. The stakes must always be very high.
I think we'll continue to see those older Valkyries in easter eggs and various games, at least.

False Prophet wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:29 am Speaking of which, is it just me or does it feel like recent Macross hasn't give away a lot in term of spectacles? I mean, the dogfighting are fine enough, but there just aren't those little details that make me remember them for a long time. It is probably to keep animation budget low and saving ideas for the movies.
Macross Delta seems to have spent most of its money on music production, kind of repeating the course that Macross 7 took.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Say, the things that happened in Macross 2036 are not canon, right? I found out about Eternal Love Song when searching for retro Japanese turn-based strategy. And what is the deal with the Attack Valkyrie? Looks like a Strike Valkyrie with less parts to me.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

False Prophet wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:51 pm Say, the things that happened in Macross 2036 are not canon, right? I found out about Eternal Love Song when searching for retro Japanese turn-based strategy.
Macross 2036 was/is the first canon Macross video game, though as it was produced as a tie-in to connect the events of Macross: Do You Remember Love? to Macross II: Lovers Again it joined its parent OVA as part of the "parallel world" that was the original Macross sequel timeline. Eternal Love Song is a sequel to the Macross 2036 game, and also canon to that parallel world timeline.


False Prophet wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:51 pm And what is the deal with the Attack Valkyrie? Looks like a Strike Valkyrie with less parts to me.
So, it has a bunch of different names... the VF-1改, VF-1R Refined Valkyrie, and Attack Valkyrie.

It's a late 2010s-early 2020's modernization of the original VF-1 Valkyrie with across-the-board improvements. I often equate it to the difference between the original F/A-18 Hornet and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. The FAST packs it's equipped with are the Super Pack II, a semi-permanent set of fittings that are a more efficient and streamlined take on the old Strike Pack that are able to be used in atmosphere and in space. It was the last development of the VF-1 series original lead developer in that timeline (Dr. H. Takachihoff) before his death, and comes in three flavors: the VF-1AR, VF-1JR, and VF-1SR. In-game, Komilia flies the VF-1SR and her wingman Lott Sheen flies a VF-1JR.

As you know, Eternal Love Song later added a version of the VF-4 with a head lasers, funnels, and a massive Zeta Gundam-esque beam rifle.

Both the Refined Valkyrie and the Siren remained the UN Forces' main fighters until the 2054 Zentradi invasion led to a major overhaul of the UN Forces in the 2050s that produced the VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie and the VF-2 series.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Seto Kaiba wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:38 am
Do the improved/advanced versions of the VF-1 (VF-1X, VF-1X+, VF-1X++, VF-1EX) have the capability to reach escape velocity under their own power?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

hitokirigarou wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:03 pm Do the improved/advanced versions of the VF-1 (VF-1X, VF-1X+, VF-1X++, VF-1EX) have the capability to reach escape velocity under their own power?
Whoops... sorry, I meant to reply to this one and forgot to actually post it.

Unfortunately, we don't know what the manufacturer's original specifications for the VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus are like. The only example of that type we've seen is the customized "Hakuna Aoba Special" version that was modified for use as a racing plane in the Vanquish League's Ultimate-class air races. I'd say Hakuna Aoba's custom VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus almost certainly can launch itself into satellite orbit or beyond given that its stock engines were replaced by a pair of Legodt & Angeloni Industries ELA-3000 thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines intended for modern unmanned fighter use that give it comparable speed and acceleration to a 4th Generation VF and offer better overall fuel efficiency than the VF-1's stock engines, though its onboard fuel supply is still much more limited than the larger VFs of later generations.

For the VF-1X, VF-1X+, and VF-1EX... almost certainly not. Their main limitation there isn't engine thrust so much as onboard fuel capacity.

Thermonuclear reaction turbine engines are extraordinarily fuel-efficient in atmospheric flight because they use heat from their built-in thermonuclear reactors as a replacement for combustion processes to heat intake air and produce thrust. The reactors are use gravity control for fuel compression, so the amount of fuel needed to maintain a fusion reaction is relatively low and much more energy can be extracted from the fuel. The downside to the design is that plasma from the thermonuclear reactor is used as propellant when operating in space. This means that, in space, a Valkyrie consumes its fuel exponentially faster than it does in atmosphere. 4,200 times faster, in the case of the old VF-1 Valkyrie, with the same fuel that lasted 700 hours of continuous operation in atmosphere being enough for just ten minutes of engine burn at maximum output in space. VFs don't have enough internal space to carry a substantial volume of dedicated propellant in addition to the fuel for their reactors, so the reactor fuel pulls triple duty as fuel, coolant, and plasma propellant.

Because the VF-1 Valkyrie's size was constrained in its development to approximately what the UN Forces thought the size of potential alien hostiles would be, its internal fuel tanks are insufficient for extended space operations. This effectively capped the VF-1's service ceiling at low Earth orbit and necessitated the development of several different stopgap solutions to extend its operating time in near-vacuum and vacuum conditions. The most basic attempts to work around the issue involved adding additional internal fuel tanks inside the intake spaces or bolt-on fuel tanks. More advanced solutions involved supplementing the engines with hybrid rocket motors and adding substantial bolt-on fuel tanks. Unfortunately, the only fuel-efficient way to get the Valkyrie to satellite orbit or beyond was to not rely on the limited fuel supply of the main engines at all, and substitute them for a powerful booster sled that could carry itself and the Valkyrie to satellite orbit without drawing on main engine fuel. A bit over 100km is about where the Valkyrie tops out with its available internal fuel supply.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Seto Kaiba wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:15 am *snip*
Thanks for the info!
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

One thing I should add to the above... later models of Valkyrie addressed the problem in three ways:
  1. More engines
  2. Bigger engines and airframes
  3. Improvements to engine technology
The VF-1 Valkyrie's direct successor, the VF-4 Lightning III, addressed the high altitude performance problem by the simple expedient of MORE ENGINES... supplementing its pair of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines with a pair of thermonuclear ramjets built into the wing and a pair of hybrid rocket motors built into the engine nacelle. Various later models improved performance with larger engines and better airflow compression, though a true solution was not available until the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine design came into service on the VF-16, the late type VF-17 (D variant and later), and the 4th Generation VFs like the VF-19, VF-22, and VF-171. They used a better quality gravity and inertia control system to produce higher reaction temperatures and better exhaust compression, allowing the engines to function in air-breathing mode at higher altitudes and making space flight marginally more fuel-efficient.

(This technology was the tipping point where FAST packs stopped being about adding additional fuel and engines to the Valkyrie with a few added weapons to justify the added weight to being all about adding additional weapons to the Valkyrie with boosters to offset the increase in airframe weight from the weapons.)
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

I'm assuming that the VF-3000, VF-5000, VF-9, VF-11, VF-14, VA-3, and VB-6 don't have escape velocity capability?

What about the Variable/Neo Glaug?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

hitokirigarou wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:06 am I'm assuming that the VF-3000, VF-5000, VF-9, VF-11, VF-14, VA-3, and VB-6 don't have escape velocity capability?
Almost certainly not, yeah. The VF-3000 and VF-5000 are contemporaries of the VF-4 and it's using first-generation engine designs similar to the VF-1's. The same goes for the others, which are mainly 2nd and 3rd Generation VFs... with the possible exception of the VF-14. The VF-14 had disproportionately high engine power and airframe space, which may have allowed it to work around the fuel capacity and engine efficiency problems by sheer brute force. Its Protodeviln-improved derivative, the Fz-109 Elgersoln, is comparable in performance to the 3.5th Gen VF-17D/S, so that version of the VF-14 is probably capable.

It's the 3.5th, 4th. and 5th Generation VFs that are confirmed explicitly to have the ability to launch into satellite orbit under their own power in a fuel-efficient manner. That's the VF-16, VF-17, VF-19, VF-22, VF-171, VF-24, VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31, Sv-154, Sv-262, and so on which had thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines or the Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines that replaced those.

hitokirigarou wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:06 am What about the Variable/Neo Glaug?
So... there are actually a couple different versions of that design that have different levels of capability.

The initial type Variable Glaug that first appeared as an improvised enemy mecha and was later adopted by the New UN Forces was, performance-wise, a 3rd Generation-equivalent VF and probably did not have adequate engine power or fuel to launch itself into satellite orbit efficiently. The design was later used as the basis for an unmanned VF that was designated "Neo Glaug" in the late 2030s which had performance rivaling a 4th Generation VF. It appeared in the game version of Macross Plus where it attacked Isamu's YF-19-2 on its way to Macross City and was shot down as the penultimate boss fight. The Neo Glaug was later adapted back into a manned VF as the Neo Glaug bis, which was a true 4th Generation VF and able to launch itself into satellite orbit efficiently. The Neo Glaug bis is the last known version of the Variable Glaug, which is used by the New UN Spacy Marine Corps in the 2050s.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Kind of odd that the VB-6 can not reach escape velocity. I expected it to have engines powerful enough to do that.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:48 am Kind of odd that the VB-6 can not reach escape velocity. I expected it to have engines powerful enough to do that.
The VB-6 is a product of the early 2030s, being effectively a 3rd Generation VF.

It can almost certainly reach the edge of space over an Earth-type planet the way practically every VF can, but the sheer mass of it and the inefficiency of the engines used by the 1st-3rd Gen VFs prior to the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine technology being introduced in the 2040s, work against it. It has approximately 2,283kN of thrust via the four thermonuclear reaction turbine engines and four plasma rocket engines it has, but it's also over 100 metric tons empty where your average VF is about 1/10th that. Running all of its engines at full power, its thrust-to-weight ratio peaks at 2.2845, well below that of almost any other VF.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

You mentioned that the UN Spacy Marine Corps use the Neo Glaug bis. That got me thinking about the UN Army. Do they still use destroids?

Is the VA-3 still in use? I would wager that the M model is very useful for underwater operations.

Does a "UN Air Force" exist or is it supplanted by the UN Spacy?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:26 pm You mentioned that the UN Spacy Marine Corps use the Neo Glaug bis.
Yup... it appears prominently in the Macross Frontier novelization (Temjin uses one, instead of the Queadluun-Rhea/56 he uses in the anime) and in the light novel Macross the Ride where the villain Naresuan flies one for the second half of the story.


hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:26 pm That got me thinking about the UN Army. Do they still use destroids?
Yes and no?

Destroids were largely phased out of service in the years following the end of the First Space War. The assumption underpinning their design - that hostilities with an alien force would take the form of a planetary invasion - turned out to be rather wide of the mark. Main Battle Tank-equivalents like the Tomahawk were simply unnecessary when the Zentradi's standard response to a surface-based enemy was orbital bombardment and anti-aircraft models like the Phalanx and Defender were vastly more expensive and not really any more versatile than conventional AA guns and missile launchers. The Spartan and Monster seem to have hung on the longest as a police mecha handling any rowdy Zentradi and a mobile artillery piece, but even they were quietly retired after a while. Many Destroids that hadn't been fortunate enough to be dispatched with early emigrant fleets were disarmed and sold off to civilians in surplus disposal sales where they were eventually converted into construction equipment (seen in Macross 7), while some of the units that weren't sold off were repurposed as unmanned targets for live fire testing of weapons under development (seen in Macross Plus).

There are some emigrant governments that still make limited use of modernized versions of 50+ year old Destroids from the First Space War era like the Cheyenne II, or the Macross Galaxy fleet's experiments with modernizing the Series 04 Destroids (Tomahawk, Defender, Phalanx), but their usage seems to be heavily limited to being a mobile anti-aircraft platform. Strategic Military Services uses them for point defense guns on their Macross Quarter class ships, but those units aren't even manned... they're remotely operated.

All in all, there hasn't been any new Destroid development for the New UN Forces since the end of the First Space War in the main Macross timeline.

The "anti-government" (actually anti-fascist) group Black Rainbow from the Second Unification War did possess a land warfare mobile weapon called the Gjagravan Va that is often unofficially considered to be a Destroid. It's a four-legged mecha that looks and moves a lot like a water strider. Some analyses also try to put the Annabella Lasiodora mobile weapon in the Destroid category, though in truth its closest analogous category would be a small warship or borrowing the Gundam term "Mobile Armor" (it could perhaps best be described as "What if the Bigro had more arms and a face like a battleship?".


hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:26 pm Is the VA-3 still in use? I would wager that the M model is very useful for underwater operations.
The VA-3's on the old side c.2059 or 2067, but it was still used by the New UN Forces in 2051 at the very least. It's probably still in limited use, though we haven't seen any identified users in a while. The Frontier fleet filled that niche at least partly with a fighter-bomber variant of the VF-171.


hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:26 pm Does a "UN Air Force" exist or is it supplanted by the UN Spacy?
Yeah, the Air Force stuck around after the First Space War. As far as we know, the New UN Forces have seven branches of service: the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Spacy, Spacy Air Force, and Spacy Marines. (The military seems to have a more Japanese attitude towards branch affiliation, as it's shown to be possible to be reassigned from one branch to another without a loss of rank or new service contract.)

Isamu Dyson - the regifted fruitcake of the New UN Forces - has a personnel file that shows him as having joined the Spacy originally, been reassigned to a Navy carrier, then being punted to the Air Force where he won several medals for his flying ability before being stripped of his decorations for violating orders and promptly regifted to the New Edwards Air Force Base on Eden. Colonel Millard, his superior, is also an Air Force officer (a Colonel).
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

I've been wanting to ask this for some time now...

How powerful is the Metal Siren from Macross II?

It seemed quite powerful. Especially having a extra transformation Gundroid mode. It kicked a lot of ass in the anime too.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Seto Kaiba wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:06 amIsamu Dyson - the regifted fruitcake of the New UN Forces
That just might be the most hilarious description of a single anime character I've ever read.
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