The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

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MythSearcher
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

Seto Kaiba wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:29 am If you, a logistics officer in the Principality of Zeon's quartermaster corps, are handling and packing rounds for the various machine guns, rotary cannons, and autocannons one by one... you're going to have a REALLY bad time. I'd expect them to be handling ammunition by the crate or the cargo container only.

Some of those rounds would absolutely be heavy enough to be awkward to handle individually... your bog standard 155mm anti-tank round weighs about 18.6kg/41.1lb, your average 90mm artillery-type HE shell being around 11kg/24lb. Forklifts are a logistics officer's best friend... as long as you don't count the guy with the still made of surplus machine gun parts.
But what about the frontline?
Someone has to move the rounds into the magazine/machines?
And in the heat of the battle, it seems to be pretty common that they move some rounds out and lay them somewhere not near the crates?(thanks to 08th MS team backgrounds, they seem to like the idea of drawing rounds all over the place)
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:00 pm But what about the frontline?
Someone has to move the rounds into the magazine/machines?
That's not gonna be the quartermaster corps... that's the armorers and vehicle crews, and for a lot of calibers that's just "move the ammunition from the crate into an autoloader carriage" and let the machine reload the magazine for you. It's only small arms magazines and vehicles for which there is no exterior magazine access (e.g. tanks) where a by-hand reload is necessary.

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:00 pm And in the heat of the battle, it seems to be pretty common that they move some rounds out and lay them somewhere not near the crates?(thanks to 08th MS team backgrounds, they seem to like the idea of drawing rounds all over the place)
Which is really odd and not at all realistic... you don't leave ammo laying around willy-nilly, especially the larger and inherently more dangerous calibers. That stuff's expensive and if something cooks it off it's a brass hand grenade.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

Seto Kaiba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:03 am
That's not gonna be the quartermaster corps... that's the armorers and vehicle crews, and for a lot of calibers that's just "move the ammunition from the crate into an autoloader carriage" and let the machine reload the magazine for you. It's only small arms magazines and vehicles for which there is no exterior magazine access (e.g. tanks) where a by-hand reload is necessary.
Well, I was just expressing my frustration about how all those rounds will be hard to tell apart and likely completely impractical anyway.

I wonder if tech advancement can make some kind of AI that can just sort out the problem for them so they just don't care about the logistics that much.
Which is really odd and not at all realistic... you don't leave ammo laying around willy-nilly, especially the larger and inherently more dangerous calibers. That stuff's expensive and if something cooks it off it's a brass hand grenade.
I guess they just find it visually cool to have rounds around and didn't think about why.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

MythSearcher wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:59 am I wonder if tech advancement can make some kind of AI that can just sort out the problem for them so they just don't care about the logistics that much.
Oh, absolutely... one of my first job interviews was with a company that makes automated ammo sorting machines for the US military. If a system barely the size of a minivan can inspect, sort, and package multiple types of ammunition simultaneously with early 2000s technology, it shouldn't be too hard to do something similar for larger munitions in a spacefuture setting a century or so into the future.

It's still going to be a a manpower and logistics nightmare keeping stock levels in line and shipping everything where it needs to go, though. Just imagine what bold new profanity the stevedores of the Universal Century have come up with to express their frustration with wartime loading timetables.

I'm mildly curious how and where Zeon was storing all of its spare parts and munitions. IIRC, their ships aren't really landing-capable, so they've gotta have either some pretty significant stockpiles just sitting around somewhere on the Earth's surface or they're using a LOT of landing craft for just-in-time delivery.


MythSearcher wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:59 am I guess they just find it visually cool to have rounds around and didn't think about why.
It looks impressive, and these are shows meant to entertain.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

Seto Kaiba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:25 am
Oh, absolutely... one of my first job interviews was with a company that makes automated ammo sorting machines for the US military. If a system barely the size of a minivan can inspect, sort, and package multiple types of ammunition simultaneously with early 2000s technology, it shouldn't be too hard to do something similar for larger munitions in a spacefuture setting a century or so into the future.

It's still going to be a a manpower and logistics nightmare keeping stock levels in line and shipping everything where it needs to go, though. Just imagine what bold new profanity the stevedores of the Universal Century have come up with to express their frustration with wartime loading timetables.
I was referring to an AI doing the calculations and keeping track of all the required parts, stores, inventory, ammo, etc.
I'm mildly curious how and where Zeon was storing all of its spare parts and munitions. IIRC, their ships aren't really landing-capable, so they've gotta have either some pretty significant stockpiles just sitting around somewhere on the Earth's surface or they're using a LOT of landing craft for just-in-time delivery.
It seems like they just dump resources to points where they collect later. The EFGF doesn't have the manpower to go ahead and collect them anyway.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

I guess the storage issue affects a lot of the Gundam series(Except when the plot decides it needs to). Though there are ways to work around it in canon. For example the Dabude Class dates back to the original series, and appears in many OYW side stories, and it certainly looks big enough to store munition stockpiles and spare parts. Likewise there are numerous bases the Zeon have captured during the war (eg the California Base), that would allow Terrestrial resupply. Also the later Endra class has the ability to land on the earth, mabey the Musai does also.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

To be on topic, where do you guys think the devs put reactors on combination Gs like ZZ and Impulse, cuz I cant figure out where would be the ideal place?
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

lunatictaker wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:21 pm To be on topic, where do you guys think the devs put reactors on combination Gs like ZZ and Impulse, cuz I cant figure out where would be the ideal place?
Not specified but using RX-78 as an example, there are 7 generators onboard.
2 on the core fighter(NC-3D type), 2 on the legs(NC-3MD), 1 in the waist(NC-7S-3) and 2 in the back pack(NC-5D-5)
The main generators are the NC-3's on the core fighter, 2 generators dedicated for legs, while all the others are listed as sub generators.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

MythSearcher wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:55 pm
lunatictaker wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:21 pm To be on topic, where do you guys think the devs put reactors on combination Gs like ZZ and Impulse, cuz I cant figure out where would be the ideal place?
Not specified but using RX-78 as an example, there are 7 generators onboard.
2 on the core fighter(NC-3D type), 2 on the legs(NC-3MD), 1 in the waist(NC-7S-3) and 2 in the back pack(NC-5D-5)
The main generators are the NC-3's on the core fighter, 2 generators dedicated for legs, while all the others are listed as sub generators.
I see, thats one possible way to fit the generators on them. Still wonder which type of gen/drive will they put on the legs
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

lunatictaker wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:05 am
MythSearcher wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:55 pm
lunatictaker wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:21 pm To be on topic, where do you guys think the devs put reactors on combination Gs like ZZ and Impulse, cuz I cant figure out where would be the ideal place?
Not specified but using RX-78 as an example, there are 7 generators onboard.
2 on the core fighter(NC-3D type), 2 on the legs(NC-3MD), 1 in the waist(NC-7S-3) and 2 in the back pack(NC-5D-5)
The main generators are the NC-3's on the core fighter, 2 generators dedicated for legs, while all the others are listed as sub generators.
I see, thats one possible way to fit the generators on them. Still wonder which type of gen/drive will they put on the legs
The ones that ends with D is likely stands for Drive, you can see all of them are attached to thrusters.
M I guess stands for movement/motion, which are also use for walking. S is likely Sub or Support.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

The ones that ends with D is likely stands for Drive, you can see all of them are attached to thrusters.
M I guess stands for movement/motion, which are also use for walking. S is likely Sub or Support.
[/quote]

I see, thanks for the detailed answer :D
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

MythSearcher wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:04 am
Seto Kaiba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:25 am
Oh, absolutely... one of my first job interviews was with a company that makes automated ammo sorting machines for the US military. If a system barely the size of a minivan can inspect, sort, and package multiple types of ammunition simultaneously with early 2000s technology, it shouldn't be too hard to do something similar for larger munitions in a spacefuture setting a century or so into the future.

It's still going to be a a manpower and logistics nightmare keeping stock levels in line and shipping everything where it needs to go, though. Just imagine what bold new profanity the stevedores of the Universal Century have come up with to express their frustration with wartime loading timetables.
I was referring to an AI doing the calculations and keeping track of all the required parts, stores, inventory, ammo, etc.
I'm mildly curious how and where Zeon was storing all of its spare parts and munitions. IIRC, their ships aren't really landing-capable, so they've gotta have either some pretty significant stockpiles just sitting around somewhere on the Earth's surface or they're using a LOT of landing craft for just-in-time delivery.
It seems like they just dump resources to points where they collect later. The EFGF doesn't have the manpower to go ahead and collect them anyway.
Even if they do have an AI to do most of that, somebody, somewhere is going to have to stare at a computer screen and say "Yep! That's right." or send in an order form for more to be manufactured. Nobody in their right mind is going to just leave that computer to work without some kind of manual oversight
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

Jamafore wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:19 am

Even if they do have an AI to do most of that, somebody, somewhere is going to have to stare at a computer screen and say "Yep! That's right." or send in an order form for more to be manufactured. Nobody in their right mind is going to just leave that computer to work without some kind of manual oversight
Yes, but that still eliminates a lot of manpower.

The truth is a lot of logistics are converting to use AIs and robots to do stuff. You still need to have humans but a lot less than say, 10 years ago.
And that is talking about random commercial products and courier. If it is military manufacturing and logistics, it should have less variation in things needed to be delivered.

That being said, with Minovsky particles scattered everywhere, I guess they cannot use something like an online system to let the frontline commanders order things they need as simple as what we have today.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

So what does everyone think of the AGE Builder? It's sort of like an A.I crossed with a 3D printer. It can analyze the Gundam's needs and build armor and weapons to suit it.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

Mafty wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:49 am So what does everyone think of the AGE Builder? It's sort of like an A.I crossed with a 3D printer. It can analyze the Gundam's needs and build armor and weapons to suit it.
Makes little sense.
irl your weapon isn't going to be that much different if you are using somewhat state of the art technology.
A beam rifle is just going to be shooting high temperature plasma and let the velocity(basically turns into pressure at impact) and heat do the damage. You are not going to "tweak" the performance just by observing the enemy for a while.
Well, if you have the UC situation of the beam shield maybe you can choose between speed of the beam and heat of the beam, but I don't see AGE having similar problems. And something as simple as that can be taken care of as two guns to begin with instead of a strange 3D printer.

Armour, similar case. You are not going to have like superb defence just by changing the shape by a little. While spaced armour does help to defend against hyper velocity impacts, HE rounds and beams, you don't get much more by changing on the field. The space you can get without compensating a lot of the range of motion of the MS is very limited.

It makes sense to use something like that for repairs, but I don't see it making a lot more effectiveness out of the limited constraints it is put up against.

It may make more sense in terms of merchandising if they make a greater variety of weapons, like instead of another beam rifle they make a beam bazooka or something like a sniper rifle. Which makes a little bit more sense irl as well. A larger gun can imply more power but less agile. But that still doesn't really make too much sense in terms of you can actually still produce things like that beforehand. But at least will have more toys they can sell. They should even just go for the more toy like concept in W, you get much more exotic weapons the 5 Gundams have, and when the usage of such weapons are very different, it is pretty hard to rationally say that you can't just make a better gun out of the blue on the field because they are used completely differently.(like using a different coloured beam to shoot through a particular type of barrier, have some kind of teleport bullet to get through a barrier but won't work if the bullet just hits the armour, etc.)

So at the end the problem of AGE is the lack of imagination or being plain lazy. Your typical "oh, something is trendy now so we will include it", without actually thinking how to properly apply the thing.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

AGE apparently started out life as a video game by Level 5 , which if true, explains a lot, even the animation looks kinda like it's taken from a Doujin Soft Visual Novel. The quick upgrades flying out into the battlefield , does seem like something you would see in (some) videogames. Plus again the main reason is , of course the merchandising (though personally I though some of the armor looked a bit goofy).

This is probably better utilized in the Striker Packs in SEED. They actually were built beforehand(rather than being made by a computer), and are useable in a variety of different environments. Additionally they look more realistically mechanical (for a given definition of realistic) than many of the armor designs in AGE.

However that also brings up which would be the easiest to maintain? A suit that has added armor packs? Or a suit that can transform to preform different combat maneuvers?
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

Mafty wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:33 am AGE apparently started out life as a video game by Level 5 , which if true, explains a lot, even the animation looks kinda like it's taken from a Doujin Soft Visual Novel. The quick upgrades flying out into the battlefield , does seem like something you would see in (some) videogames. Plus again the main reason is , of course the merchandising (though personally I though some of the armor looked a bit goofy).

This is probably better utilized in the Striker Packs in SEED. They actually were built beforehand(rather than being made by a computer), and are useable in a variety of different environments. Additionally they look more realistically mechanical (for a given definition of realistic) than many of the armor designs in AGE.
That is why I think the show has failed on so many levels.
We already have more different weapons in previous Gundam shows, it is not a new idea and they didn't take that into the system to make more out of the concept they had.
Even if it is like a game, there were also games like Gundam Breaker where you get a lot of weapons.
The design of AGE-1~3 is pretty obvious to be just referencing Gundam, Zeta and ZZ.
Characters are as shallow as they can be, Flitz hatred for example is very unconvincing with that face swap of a good'O grandpa and the incarnation of hate.

The whole thing just looks to be someone with a surface knowledge of Gundam trying to haphazardly put together a show they think kids will like, probably doesn't even like it themselves. It is that kind of mentality that's making a show to fool kids instead of making a show for kids.(the latter would be taking a story even adults find interesting and then simplify it to be understandable by kids)
However that also brings up which would be the easiest to maintain? A suit that has added armor packs? Or a suit that can transform to preform different combat maneuvers?
The simple answer would be which has more moving parts.
when you have modularised things to a certain extend, changing a backpack really isn't that much different from changing the limbs of the MS.
It is however not really that practical irl, as people have designed things like changeable turrets for AFVs to swap their functions. The reason is, the weapon system is likely one of the most expensive thing you have onboard, the other being the main drive to make the thing move.
Having a bunch of weapon systems lying in the base really isn't efficient strategy.
Yeah, and by now you probably figured out having a bunch of limbs lying back in the base also isn't really efficient.

Gundam seems to have a habit of thinking the most expensive thing is the cockpit, and all the other stuff is disposable or almost useless, that is pretty much shown in FG, and reached its peak in V(where AB parts are used as missiles)
In reality, if you only need to add a cockpit and you have another unit fighting, you will do it.
Thus SEED with the Sky/Cosmoscraper carrying the weapon and can fight is probably a more reasonable choice.

But back to your question. The weapon packs are likely easiest to maintain because it has least moveable parts. The limb packs in AGE is a step up from that since the parts itself has a lot more moveable parts.
These two has some redundant weight with the connectors and such, but likely not a whole lot more.
Transformation units are likely the worse because you have so much more moveable parts in the unit itself to begin with, and all of those are useless dead weight which will not really contribute in the fight in either mode it is fighting in. And in reality, hate to break it to you, but transformation isn't going to be useful in anyway. You won't get something to be able to perform a different combat just by changing its parts. You still have the same amount of thrust, a well designed MS can just direct all of it to the same direction and get the same effect. The streamlining by such a transformation isn't going to work wonders in aerodynamics than maybe the MS put itself in a stupid but equally effective "head first" standing pose. Definitely have even less effect in space.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:49 pm It is that kind of mentality that's making a show to fool kids instead of making a show for kids.(the latter would be taking a story even adults find interesting and then simplify it to be understandable by kids)
Off topic, but thank you very much. Now I understand why I'm so disappointed with Ultraman Trigger.
My girlfriend was a loli.
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Re: The difficulties in maintaining the ZZ Gundam

Kuruni wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:38 am

Off topic, but thank you very much. Now I understand why I'm so disappointed with Ultraman Trigger.
Thank the editors of Corocoro(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoroCoro_Comic). This is supposedly their motto, to make comics for children, not make comics fooling children. (Of course, whether they can live up to it is entirely another matter.)
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