Gundam Seed Side Stories: When?

[toysdream]

So I've been digging into the First Gundam timeline in the Movies Versus TV thread, and investigating mobile suits from the Gundam Seed series for my MS Catalog, and naturally I've started to wonder about the exact timing of all the Gundam Seed Astray stories and other spinoffs.

As you may know, we have a pretty detailed official timeline for the original Gundam Seed TV series, and detailed diagrams in the Japanese publications showing how the events of the original Gundam Seed Astray stories (including Astray B, Astray R, and Astray X) fit in between. But there's never been a published timeline for Gundam Seed Destiny, and the only dates we have in relation to that series are March 10, C.E. 72 for the signing of the Junius Treaty, and October 2, C.E. 73 for the attack on Armory One that begins the Destiny TV series. There seems to be a consensus that the TV series ends at some point in C.E. 74, but that's really about it.

One interesting wrinkle is the titling of the spinoff series; Stargazer and Delta Astray, whose events cover almost the entire span of the TV series (up to the point where Lord Djibril has fled into space and Chairman Durandal announced his Destiny Plan), both have the date "C.E. 73" in their title. This suggests that the bulk of Seed Destiny could take place in the last three months of that year, with only the final battle at Messiah spilling over into C.E. 74.

Even attempting to put the side stories in order is tricky. Destiny Astray begins before the signing of the Junius Treaty - it starts with the outbreak of a South American War of Independence in November of C.E. 71, continues through the signing of the treaty, then depicts the attack on Armory One and the "Break the World" incident that leads to the formal declaration of a new war. Delta Astray picks up at this point and appears to continue through the rest of the war; ditto for Stargazer.

Frame Astrays, as far as I can tell, depicts part of that war taking place on the Asian front. Versus Astray should take place after Frame Astrays, because we're told that Guy has converted his Astray Blue Frame back from the Blue Frame Third to the upgraded Blue Frame Revise, but the series premise mentions that it's still within the Seed Destiny timeframe.

The latest additions to the menagerie are Destiny Astray R and Destiny Astray B. The former supposedly takes place after Lowe returns from Mars, just in time for the "Break the World" incident, and given that the Red Frame Kai from Versus Astray seems more powerful than the version we see in Destiny Astray R, I assume Versus Astray takes place afterwards. As for Destiny Astray B, I have no idea; we have custom GOUFs running around in that one, so you'd think it would be after the introduction of that machine in the main Seed Destiny TV series.

Anything I'm missing, or other evidence to add to the pile?

-- Mark

[balofo]

Destiny Astray R/B are way before VS. B is just before Frame and R is indeed just after Lowe comes back from Mars.

There was a timeline in the DC 2 for Astray, it evens says the now retconned Blue Frame Fourth mission happens way after Destiny and everything.

[toysdream]

I think it's always been assumed that the Blue Frame Fourth mission happens after everything else. The timeline in the Data Collection book was somewhat helpful, but hampered by the lack of dates and the fact it didn't cover anything past Stargazer and Delta Astray. (It kind of vaguely suggests that Frame Astrays happens at the end of the new war, but I don't find that convincing because the fighting is supposed to have moved off Earth by then, and we need to find room for Versus Astray.)

So do we have any sense of exactly when in the Seed Destiny timeframe the Destiny Astray R, B, Frame, and Versus stories take place? All we really seem to have is "after Break the World and before the end of the war," which is pretty vague.

-- Mark

[E08]

Versus Astray should take place after Frame Astrays, because we're told that Guy has converted his Astray Blue Frame back from the Blue Frame Third to the upgraded Blue Frame Revise, but the series premise mentions that it's still within the Seed Destiny timeframe.

... As for Destiny Astray B, I have no idea; we have custom GOUFs running around in that one, so you'd think it would be after the introduction of that machine in the main Seed Destiny TV series.

Anything I'm missing, or other evidence to add to the pile?

-- Mark

About Versus Astray, the Vent Saviour kit manual provides an intriguing tip. It says that the suit incorporates usage data from Infinite Justice's Fatum-01. Of course, it is unknown if they are talking about ZAFT's version of Infinite Justice or the Clyne Faction.

As for Destiny Astray B, the GOUF Ignited that Elsa used seem to have appeared earlier than Heine's GOUF Ignited, which appeared after "Break the World" incident. The support for this is Ash Gray's appearance in Destiny Astray B. From Destiny Astray manga, we know that he died sometime around the "Break the World". However, in Destiny Astray B chapter 9, he is still alive and using Divine Testament. As for Elsa's GOUF Ignited, it appeared way back in chapter 2.

[toysdream]

Aha, that's useful data. Hopefully nobody's running around making "carbon human" copies of Ash Gray - one of that guy would be plenty!

Anyway, as per your summaries in the Destiny Astray R/B thread, the Family is still around as of Destiny Astray B, and I think they get wiped out at the end of Destiny Astray (along with Ash Gray).

-- Mark

[balofo]

Mark have some dates

http://imgur.com/7oBKbwO
http://imgur.com/W8HOuV5

And the event/publication order in chinese

http://imgur.com/MC6Ul1e
http://imgur.com/DwSBeN1
http://imgur.com/JpdcBqz
http://imgur.com/Uq332lS

These are from Frame photonovel original run in the magazine

[toysdream]

Wait, so Frame Astrays takes place between July and September of C.E. 73? In that case it happens before the start of the Seed Destiny TV series. I'm not sure why the ZAFT and Earth forces would be openly fighting at that point, but it's an interesting data point. I guess this really is a complicated subject!

The flow chart in the second batch of links seems similar to the one in the second Gundam Seed Side Stories data collection, just slightly reformatted and in Chinese. Likewise, it indicates that Frame Astrays takes place at the end of Seed Destiny - starting around the same time as the Destroy Gundam's rampage - so it really does seem like nobody knows when this story happens.

-- Mark

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

One interesting wrinkle is the titling of the spinoff series; Stargazer and Delta Astray, whose events cover almost the entire span of the TV series (up to the point where Lord Djibril has fled into space and Chairman Durandal announced his Destiny Plan), both have the date "C.E. 73" in their title. This suggests that the bulk of Seed Destiny could take place in the last three months of that year, with only the final battle at Messiah spilling over into C.E. 74.

That seems like a really truncated time table to me -- ZAFT virtually conquered the planet in Destiny, and is only took three months? Even if you factor in things like the confusion of the Junius 7 drop and the eventual defection of the Eurasians, that seems like an absurdly short amount of time.

[toysdream]

I'm not actually that bothered by a short time frame for Seed Destiny. Normally the timelines for Gundam series streeeeeeeeetch things out beyond the limits of plausibility. The timeline for the original Gundam Seed, which is definitely one of the better ones, spans eight months and includes a couple of lengthy gaps in the action (the Archangel hides out in Orb for a month after Operation Spit Break, and there's a gap of more than two months between episodes 46 and 47). First Gundam spans about three and a half months; Victory Gundam is less than three.

In general, it seems like one cours (13 episodes) of Gundam story packs in about a month's worth of events. (This also applies to OVAs like Gundam 0083, and to Gundam Unicorn once you adjust for the greater episode length.) By this standard, three months is a little short for Seed Destiny, but I bet you could put together a decent timeline in that span if you tried.


EDIT: As for the timing of Frame Astrays, the official web site says that Elijah's ZAKU Phantom appears in this series. The Japanese Wikipedia says that Elijah switches to this machine after Kaite Madigan destroys his custom GINN during Destiny Astray - I don't remember when that happens, but maybe it's in the novels...


EDIT 2: Yep, chapters 4-5 of the Destiny Astray novels. This appears to take place some time before the start of Seed Destiny - the flow chart in the second Side Stories Data Collection says it's before Jess is invited to Armory One to take pictures of the new Gundams - so Elijah could easily have received his ZAKU Phantom, and then gone on to use it in Frame Astrays, before the start of the Seed Destiny TV series. Interesting.

I wonder which happens first, Frame Astrays or Destiny Astray B? I note that the first chapter of Destiny Astray B has Gai fighting a mock battle against Barry Ho's M1 Astray, and I'm pretty sure Barry dies during Frame Astrays. This chapter also says that Elijah is now using a ZAKU Phantom, which he hasn't been using for very long. So the sequence of events appears to be...

Elijah loses his GINN and switches to ZAKU Phantom (Destiny Astray novel, CH4-5)
Gai duels Barry Ho in Orb Union (Destiny Astray B, CH1)
Barry and Serpent Tail join the fighting in Asia (Frame Astrays)
Seed Destiny begins

I think this is pretty much what balofo said above. The last part of Destiny Astray B, in which Elza challenges Gai to a duel "a few months later," apparently takes place after the Family has been wiped out - in other words, after the "Break the World" incident. So technically, Frame Astrays would take place in the middle of Destiny Astray B.

-- Mark

[Zeino]

I not sure if this is the proper place to ask but speaking of timelines, has there ever been any materiel regarding when the dates of the events of G, Wing, X, Turn-A and 00 took place?

[toysdream]

There are pretty complete timelines for Wing (including Endless Waltz) and Turn A, both of which were published in Gundam Ace's "Data Gundam" column. I've never seen a really detailed timeline for Gundam X, but here's a translation of the rough one from Gundam Ace. Very very little info on 00, either, although I put together a few clues in this old thread.

Both Gundam X and 00 appear to start on the same calendar date that the first episode of the TV show was broadcast, which has become a pretty standard assumption for Gundam timelines. (The original Gundam Seed ended on the broadcast date of the final episode; Seed Destiny's timeline start date is exactly one week before the first episode broadcast date, which suggests some kind of last-minute scheduling hiccup.)

There's virtually nothing on G Gundam. Since the "Survival Eleven" spans 11 months, my hunch is that the Gundam Fight actually starts on January 1 and ends on December 31, but I've never seen that officially confirmed.

-- Mark

[balofo]

Great to see our research was useful. Sadly there's not even complete Destiny Astray B chinese translations, when these appear I'm sure E08 will decipher it for us.

BTW jp wiki mentions Dante piloted the Blue Frame D at some point, I believe he's the one facing Elsa in the last chapter. The further improved D with arm cannons and a new Sword Pistol like DRAGOON appear to suit his style of combat.

Other thing of interest is the MSV Special chapter: in it Sven piloting a Strike Gundam fitted with IWSP looking for data on the ZAFT Millenium series fights Courtney in a ZAKU Mass Production Trial Type with PS down due to the nuclear engine being removed due to the peace treaty.

[Deacon Blues]

Actually, Mark, Destiny Astray first begins in February of C.E.71. Then again, this is something new in the Re: Master compilation. Jess is on Earth and captures Gai and Elijah's attack on ZAFT on a nearby Orb Island. It then shifts seven months later to Ame-no-Mihashira where Jess (in a Raysta) captures a battle. Then it jumps to October, the official start of the series from the old Gundam Ace running... There was a nice flow from the photonovel compilations, if this is any assistance. I originally posted this on my own forum back in July of 2006:

Book 1 "Those Who Seek the Truth"
The South American War for Independence Arc

REAL SHOT:01 (SHOT---) "PROLOGUE"
REAL SHOT:02 (SHOT013) "TESTAMENT GUNDAM"
REAL SHOT:03 (SHOT002) "DREADNOUGHT ETA"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.01**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.02**
REAL SHOT:04 (SHOT003) "GUNDAM ASTRAY OUT FRAME"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.03**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.04**
REAL SHOT:05 (SHOT004) "SKYGRASPER"
REAL SHOT:06 (SHOT---) "FROM SOUTH AMERICA TO OUTER SPACE"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.05**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.06**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.07**

Junius Agreement Arc

REAL SHOT:07 (SHOT---) "THE JUNIUS AGREEMENT"
REAL SHOT:08 (SHOT005) "GuAIZ R"
REAL SHOT:09 (SHOT001) "DINN RAVEN"
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.01**
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.02**
REAL SHOT:010 (SHOT006) "MADIGAN'S ZAKU"
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.03**
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.04**
REAL SHOT:011 (SHOT011) "ELIJAH'S ZAKU"
REAL SHOT:012 (SHOT 010) "GellsGHE"
REAL SHOT:013 (SHOT007A) "BUTTERFLY IN SOUTH AMERICA"
SPECIAL SCOOP "A GIRL'S PHOTOGRAPH"

Book 2 "Those Who Seek Bonds"
Impulse Arc

REAL SHOT:014 (SHOT---) IT HAS NOT LEFT YET
REAL SHOT:015 (SHOT007B) "IMPULSE GUNDAM"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.08**
REAL SHOT:016 (SHOT009) "IMPULSE VARIATION"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.09**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.10**
REAL SHOT:017 (SHOT008) "G-FLIGHT"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.11**
REAL SHOT:018 (SHOT012) "Multipack"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.12**

Break the World Arc

**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.13**

REAL SHOT:019 (SHOT014) "DIVINE STRIKER"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.14**
REAL SHOT:020 (SHOT015) "OUT FRAME D"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.15**
REAL SHOT:021 (SHOT016) "NUMBER 12 vs NUMBER 12"
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.16**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.17**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.18**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.19**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.20 (FIRST HALF)**
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.05**
REAL SHOT:022 (SHOT---) "TO THE WORLD OF CONFUSION"
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.06**
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.07**
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.08**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.20 (SECOND HALF)**
**GUNDAM ACE SCOOP.21**
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.09 (FIRST THIRD)*
REAL SHOT:023 (SHOT017) "RGX-04"
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.09 (MIDDLE)*
REAL SHOT:024 (SHOT018) "DESTINY"
**THE SNEAKER REPORT.09 (LATER THIRD)*
REAL SHOT:025 (SHOT---) "GIRLS FIGHT"
REAL SHOT:026 (SHOT019) "PARTY"

[E08]

Actually, Mark, Destiny Astray first begins in February of C.E.71. Then again, this is something new in the Re: Master compilation. Jess is on Earth and captures Gai and Elijah's attack on ZAFT on a nearby Orb Island. It then shifts seven months later to Ame-no-Mihashira where Jess (in a Raysta) captures a battle...

I wouldnt say that is really new, it is just the comic adaptation of the novel's chapter 00.

[Deacon Blues]

Actually, Mark, Destiny Astray first begins in February of C.E.71. Then again, this is something new in the Re: Master compilation. Jess is on Earth and captures Gai and Elijah's attack on ZAFT on a nearby Orb Island. It then shifts seven months later to Ame-no-Mihashira where Jess (in a Raysta) captures a battle...

I wouldnt say that is really new, it is just the comic adaptation of the novel's chapter 00.

Well, I meant the timestamp. The manga version is a highly condensed retelling of that particular chapter anyways.

[toysdream]

I guess the date was kind of implied since, according to the big cross-reference flow charts in the Japanese books, this incident takes place between episodes 15-21 of Gundam Seed (which take place entirely in February of C.E. 71). But it's nice to have it in print, not to mention additional confirmation that the flow charts are accurate!

Has anyone actually combined the Gundam Seed timeline (the one with all the dates) with the side story cross-reference chart to create an all-in-one chronology? If not, that might be a useful project.


Incidentally, since I've been pondering flight speeds and such for my First Gundam chronology thread, I looked at the Gundam Seed timeline and compared against the map distances between each of the stops on its world tour. As it turns out, the Archangel seems to move at a very consistent 800 km per day (about 33 km/hour) during its sea voyage from the Red Sea to Orb to JOSH-A. It makes the return trip from JOSH-A to Orb in only one week, though - that's a distance of about 9000 km, at an average speed of about 1300 km per day (about 55 km/hour). So it seems the Archangel has two speeds, an ultra-stealthy super-slow mode, and a not-quite-as-slow dash mode that's about as fast as the White Base.

Based on this, we can actually guesstimate worst-case-scenario travel times for the Minerva in Gundam Seed Destiny. By my reckoning, it should take three days to get from Orb to Carpentaria at the super-slow rate; five days from Carpentaria to the Indian Ocean battle; about ten days from the Indian Ocean to the Mahamul base in the Persian Gulf; and about two days from Mahamul to Diocuia, where the Minerva rests for a while, while Orb sends a naval fleet all the way around the world to harrass the Minerva in the Dardanelles. So, at most, that's 20 days of travel time between the Minerva's departure from Orb (Seed Destiny episode 12) and its arrival at Diocuia (episode 19), plus however long it stops at Carpentaria and Mahamul en route.

What about the stuff before that? Well, the Minerva sets off from Armory One on October 2, chases the Girty Lue to the debris belt, and plays hide-and-seek for a bit before the "Break the World" incident. Based on the Gundam Seed timeline that might take about a week. Then it descends to Earth, parks in Orb, and Athrun and Durandal head back to the PLANTs just in time for the Alliance's attack.

The sequence of events here is actually pretty similar to the start of the previous war. That time around, nine days passed between the triggering incident (the Copernicus bombing) and the Alliance's nuclear attack on the PLANTs. Five more days, and the Alliance had begun invading other terrestrial nations to force them into the war effort, while ZAFT issued its own declaration of war. This time around, we might guess that the Alliance would be launching nukes at the PLANTs (episode 9) by mid-October, and towards the end of the month we'd have ZAFT declaring war, Orb choosing sides, and the terrestrial war beginning in earnest. So the Minerva might already have completed its Carpentaria stopover by the end of October, and by mid-November the crew would be chillaxing in Diocuia, blissfully unaware of the approaching Orb fleet and the upcoming rampage of the Destroy Gundam. That leaves pretty much all of December for the attack on Heaven's Base, the re-invasion of Orb, and Lord Djibril's flight into space. If we really try, then, I think we could probably squeeze all the events of Stargazer (and possibly even Delta Astray) into the last three months of C.E. 73.

-- Mark

[balofo]

Mark anything useful here for timeline speculation? Map showing the Minerva/Archangel paths from Destiny Remaster booklet, may give an idea of the distance covered by them.

BD2
http://imgur.com/vqrJSV9

BD3
http://imgur.com/XHFqG7U

Bonus Ootori pack lineart with rough sketch(with gatling and 2 beam cannons as options)
http://imgur.com/acXCFHL

[toysdream]

Looks pretty similar to the route map in Dengeki Hobby's "Gundam The Selection" book - that one mainly just covered the Minerva, but it was a bit more detailed.

One sticking point, as it turns out, may be the movement of the Orb fleet. Because I'm a big nerd, I actually checked an international cargo shipping calculator to find the quickest route between the Solomon Islands (roughly Orb's location) and Istanbul (i.e. the Dardanelles), and it looks like the best one is to go through the Strait of Malacca and then the Red Sea, passing through the Suez Canal - the exact reverse of the route the Archangel took in the original series. This works pretty well since Suez is in Alliance hands at this point, but the total distance is about 17,200 km, and at a rate of 30 knots - which appears to be pretty standard for a modern aircraft carrier - it would take the Orb fleet about 13 days to get to the Dardanelles. That requires the Minerva to stay put for about two weeks once it gets to Diocuia.

Incidentally, 30 knots is about 55.5 km/hour. So this may not be such a weird figure for the White Base and the Gundam Seed spaceships traveling on Earth - it basically makes them like naval vessels that can travel over land as well.

-- Mark

[toysdream]

Also too: Clarify for me, has anyone translated that big old side story chronology chart they keep publishing in the Japanese books? It seems obvious, but Google isn't showing me any existing example of it. If not, maybe I'll undertake it, and then look to you excellent experts to whip it into proper shape.

The most recent and complete version I have is in the second Gundam Seed Side Stories Data Collection. Has anyone seen a newer version, i.e. in connection with Frame Astrays or VS Astray or the new Destiny Astray serials?

-- Mark

[balofo]

Also too: Clarify for me, has anyone translated that big old side story chronology chart they keep publishing in the Japanese books? It seems obvious, but Google isn't showing me any existing example of it. If not, maybe I'll undertake it, and then look to you excellent experts to whip it into proper shape.

The most recent and complete version I have is in the second Gundam Seed Side Stories Data Collection. Has anyone seen a newer version, i.e. in connection with Frame Astrays or VS Astray or the new Destiny Astray serials?

-- Mark

Since there are no scans of the VS Astray and Destiny Astray B/R compilations(unless someone has them an can verify), I'm sure that the Frame Astrays timeline is the most recent one(same with the official development chart).

Also if Deacon hasn't translated it then nobody one else has.

This is going to be a hard job but we'll manage