Questions about ZZ mecha listing

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Bluexc
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Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by Bluexc » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:03 pm

Hello everybody. I was looking at MAHQ's mecha listing for ZZ Gundam, and I noticed some things that had me wondering, specifically: the RMS-106 Hizack and RMS-108 Marasai in the Neo Zeon section, and the MSA-003 Nemo in the AEUG's section.

Now, I've never seen ZZ for myself, so forgive me if this is common knowledge, but I was under the impression that the Titans were wiped out at the end of Zeta Gundam, so does anyone know why/when/where/how their suits--specifically the Hizack and Marasai--showed up in ZZ? And under Neo Zeon control?

I was also under the impression that the AEUG had took similarly heavy losses at the end of Zeta, and the only mobile suits that they had left to fight with in ZZ were the Argama's "Gundam Team." Is that true, or is that hyperbole and the AEUG still had Nemos to fight with (hence why they would be listed at MAHQ)?

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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by mcred23 » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:12 pm

Although the Titans are largely wiped out, there are some survivors, and a few of them go on to join Axis/Neo Zeon to keep fighting against the AEUG. I don't recall exactly where the Hizack shows up (I think on Earth), but the Marasai, AFAIK, only appears once in the background in formation among other Axis/Neo Zeon MS. There was a screenshot of it, so I'll see if I can dig it up (Or somebody else posts it). As for the Nemo, I think a few of them show up near the La Vie En Rose at one point early in the series, but where ever it is they show up, the AEUG is still around and still has some (However, the vast majority of their fighting strength is gone after the bloodbath at Gryps 2, which is why you don't see too many).

EDIT: Here is a shot of the Marasai. I seem to recall another picture of it, so maybe it appeared twice...
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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:15 pm

Also, IIRC, the GM III was starting to get passed around by that time too, so production of the Nemo was halted in its favor.
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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by mcred23 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:42 pm

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:Also, IIRC, the GM III was starting to get passed around by that time too, so production of the Nemo was halted in its favor.
Yeah, the GM III was starting to get deployed around that time, although Anaheim didn't produce it (Or the upgrades to convert GM IIs into GM IIIs). I'm not sure if there have ever been production figures or dates for the Nemo (Other than it entering service in April/May 0087, as shown in the show itself), so who knows when it left production (Of course, with the majority of the AEUG gone, and the EFSF battered and not heavily shown in ZZ, AFAIK, we don't know if more Nemos were being used anywhere).
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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by Bluexc » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:56 pm

Thanks for the replies, guys.
mcred23 wrote:(Of course, with the majority of the AEUG gone, and the EFSF battered and not heavily shown in ZZ
I'm skewing slightly off topic here, but building off this point: why were the EFF in such terrible shape during ZZ? Again, I haven't seen the show myself so I'm only going off what I've read about it, but I would think the Federation Forces should have been in relatively good shape during ZZ since they didn't have to support the Titans anymore.

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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:22 am

Bluexc wrote:Thanks for the replies, guys.
mcred23 wrote:(Of course, with the majority of the AEUG gone, and the EFSF battered and not heavily shown in ZZ
I'm skewing slightly off topic here, but building off this point: why were the EFF in such terrible shape during ZZ? Again, I haven't seen the show myself so I'm only going off what I've read about it, but I would think the Federation Forces should have been in relatively good shape during ZZ since they didn't have to support the Titans anymore.
Well, primarily (I assume), because of when they handed over control of the whole Federation to the Titans. Despite them finding out the truth from Quattro/Char and then trying to support the AEUG against them, the Titans would've still had control over much of their resources throughout the time it would take to seize back control (as the Titans had been gradually gaining more power and support from the Federation), which they would've used to keep producing MS/MA and ships for themselves. Of course, most of them ending up wiped out by the colony laser and with the Federation now supporting the AEUG, this meant less opposition in restoring their previous order and chain of command.

There's also still the fact that, even before control was fully handed over, a lot of the Federation pretty much followed Titan orders, so quite a lot of Federation-based MS alongside Titans were also destroyed throughout Zeta as pawns.

Basically, ever since the end (or even the middle) of Zeta, the Federation has constantly shown patterns of "weakness", arrogance, and stagnation with only small sections of it really trying to do something, which made them out to look nigh powerless (both politically and military-wise) against new foes that rise up; ZZ, Char's Counterattack, F91, and Victory all show such signs. Of course, they eventually manage to find their way back, but only end up backsliding during times of peace.
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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by mcred23 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:44 am

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:Well, primarily (I assume), because of when they handed over control of the whole Federation to the Titans. Despite them finding out the truth from Quattro/Char and then trying to support the AEUG against them, the Titans would've still had control over much of their resources throughout the time it would take to seize back control (as the Titans had been gradually gaining more power and support from the Federation), which they would've used to keep producing MS/MA and ships for themselves.
More to the point, it isn't until Jamitov is killed that the Titans really lose control of the EFF. Prior to that, inspite of Char/Quattro/Eddie-baby/Casval's speach, they continued to largely support the Titans. Plus, there are those heavy losses they take late in the Gryps War. IIRC, the Titan/EFSF fleet during the last episodes of Zeta was about 100 ships strong, but by the time it gets down to the final battle at Gryps 2, only 30 or so are left (And most of those don't survive). There are obviously other EFSF units out there (Such as the various units in Sentinel, and I think the Earth Orbital Fleets, and probably others), but the Federation (I would think the EFSF in particular) still took a decent beating during the civil war and lost a sizeable chunk of men and equipment. Tack onto all of that a very weak/corrupt/stupid politcal leadership (For lack of better, or perhaps worse, terms :|), which, as sort of noted by HDI, usually does little or nothing (Often holding back or hindering the military) and you get the developing pattern of the Federation appearing very weak and inept in future conflicts (Although the military and EFSF get a lot more blame than they deserve, but that is another matter. :wink:).
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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by Kenji » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:00 am

The way I see it, the major reason why the Federation didn't respond to Neo Zeon's threats was the One Year War. Between Operation British, the Zeonic land invasion, and the costly Operation Star One, the Federation had bled out its veteran military, at least a third of its new cadet forces, likely trashed its economy, and had whole continents destabilize politically.

While much of the above is conjecture, what isn't is that the Federation hasn't had the stomach for war since, which is why the most powerful political and military force in the Earth Sphere has been pushed around ever since. I would tend to think it was for the above reasons, since the pre-OYW Federation seemed almost anxious to prove its might to the upstart colonists.

Looking at ZZ specifically, it seems to me that the Federal-Neo Zeon conflict was one between two forces that didn't have the capability to take the war to the other if there was any real resistance. The Federation was bled out (and had essentially lost both of their more aggressive factions: the AEUG and Titans) and the Neo Zeon had neither the manpower nor the combat experience to recreate the Zeonic conquest of the surface.

However, the Federation blinked, allowing Neo Zeon to land on Earth and walk all over them as though they actually had the resources to do this. Haman understood that illusory power is just as effective as real power, using the situation to cow the Federation into giving her Side 3 and increase her legitimacy as Neo Zeon's ruler (which ultimately failed).

If the Federation hadn't blinked and if the military, government, and citizenry were willing to undertake another war, Neo Zeon probably could've been repelled relatively easily. As it was, it took a civil war to destroy what was turning into an Axis influence sphere that was enveloping the entire Earth system.
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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:30 pm

That could be part of it, but from what I saw in an episode of ZZ, it was also, again, largely arrogance in that Federation bigwigs didn't think it mattered what Haman did.

They didn't think she'd be bold enough to try anything against them and seemed to merely be humoring her by giving her Side 3, not really caring either way. Similar to Char's Counterattack just a few years after; believing that Char would simply give up everything and not try anything against the Federation (anymore) if they simply sold him Axis like he wanted. (Even though it should be obvious that he was gonna drop it given that was what he was doing; dropping large asteroids onto Earth to create a nuclear winter. u_u;; )

Heck, this arrogance was also shown during 0083. The bigwigs believing that with someone proving them inside info on Operation Stardust (Cima), then there's no way it would succeed, thus causing them to not count on several things like;

1.) The willpower of the Delaz Fleet as a whole.

2.) Delaz basically sacrificing himself to allow them (Gato) to keep fighting (thus no hostage to herd around the Delaz Fleet with).

3.) Axis's involvement by giving them the Neue Ziel (heck, if they had kept the Forward Fleet out rather then "politely" letting them stay a limited time provided they stay "neutral", they probably could've prevented them from handing the Neue Ziel to the Delaz Fleet in the first place, which would be reason to openly attack them).

4.) The Albion's participation.

...all of which contributed in some way to the Delaz Fleet's success.
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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by toysdream » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:18 pm

You know, one thing that occurs to me about the Gryps Confict is that - by more or less eliminating both the Titans and the AEUG - it also wiped out most of the people in the Federation Forces who had strong opinions about anything.

Not only are both sides made up of Federation soldiers aboard Federation ships, but the very nature of the conflict means that the AEUG and Titans members are the most passionate and strongly motivated elements of the Federation Forces. Once they've all killed each other off, you're left with a bunch of mediocrities who didn't really care enough to risk their necks and pick a side. It's not surprising that the Londo Bell - the only Federation soldiers in CCA who actively confront Char - are pretty much all AEUG veterans.

As for 0083, you're on your own there. That show is so fiercely devoted to making the Zeons look awesome and the Federation look corrupt and stupid, that I don't feel the need to rationalize it. :-)

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Re: Questions about ZZ mecha listing

Post by Kenji » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:32 am

toysdream wrote:You know, one thing that occurs to me about the Gryps Confict is that - by more or less eliminating both the Titans and the AEUG - it also wiped out most of the people in the Federation Forces who had strong opinions about anything.
Yeah, I hadn't really thought of that until I was writing my previous post, but the AEUG and Titans really were the centers of idealism in the Federal Forces. Taking the historical long view, the Gryps Conflict could be seen as the year that the Federal military self-destructed in what amounts to a coup attempt.

Since the civilian government had already kicked the leadership bucket, certain elements of the military decided to orient the Federation through the force of the military. After the destruction of both AEUG and Titan armies, along with the folding or destruction of various splinter fleets, the military was essentially headed by the same men who headed the civilian government: mere administrators who believed too much in the propaganda of the Federation.

The problem the Federation displays in ZZ and CCA goes beyond mere arrogance. As HalfDemonInuyasha stated, arrogance is what changed Operation Stardust from a near-miss to a disaster. However, even the disaster was controlled, probably benefiting the Titans more than a near-miss would have. In any case, action followed the colony drop on North America.

In the case of ZZ, there was just as much inactivity after Dublin as there was before it. The Federal Forces only acted after Neo Zeon had destroyed itself. Likewise, they only attacked Axis when it Char's threat was already made blindingly clear. They did squat (or infinitely approaching squat) about the Crossbone Vanguard, Zanscare Empire, and various other factions in the 2nd century. These are the actions of a government that will avoid war at any cost, rather than one that is so secure in its superiority that it doesn't believe anyone else to be a threat.
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