Arbiter's Take on ZZ Gundam

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Godaiger
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Post by Godaiger » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:11 pm

Do you any of think that Arbiter may have given up on the series?

I've being watching ZZ and frankly it's not all bad and I know everyone has their own opinions but I find it funny that anyone would actually think Destiny is better than ZZ :lol:

There's also tons of silly Anti-Judau bias, Judau's a better Gundam protagonist than guys like Kira, Shinn and Heero.
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Post by pd771 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:34 pm

Godaiger wrote:Do you any of think that Arbiter may have given up on the series?

I've being watching ZZ and frankly it's not all bad and I know everyone has their own opinions but I find it funny that anyone would actually think Destiny is better than ZZ :lol:

There's also tons of silly Anti-Judau bias, Judau's a better Gundam protagonist than guys like Kira, Shinn and Heero.
I don't know, I find most people are cool with Judau himself, but his ragtag team of orphans stunk out loud. Especially Mondo.

Also, Shinn would've been good in my opinion if the series didn't take that turn after the battle with Kira.
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Post by Mark064 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:33 pm

X10A-Freedom wrote:Wait was that one of the changes half way through because CCA got approved. Ive never heard that before but that would kinda make sense. And another thing with ZZ though since you mention Glemy coming out of nowhere a few of the charaters dissapear for a bunch of eps then pop up later like Glemy and Mashima I remember thinking half way through the series did he die and I fogot it?
Technically he didn't come out of no where, Glemy existed as a character already. The original outline of ZZ Gundam included the fact that Char would have returned in the series and eventually kill Haman. But since it's just simpler this way here is a translation of the outline a friend did long ago:
Zeta Gundam Part 2

Which centers around a 13 yr old boy Judau Ashta a story where you see Judau become a MS pilot fighting against Haman's Independent Force Manibaring. Judau becomes first newtype (don't ask me what this means) and leaves a msg to the Earthnoids and leaves for Mars. The story starts out similar to ZZ. Scirocco is dead and EFF becoming pro-AEUG with Haman aiming for Earth. Bright and Emma (she isn't dead) were able to secure a place in Shangria to do repairs. Camille is taken to a hospital. Judau is apparently a bad kid, who is part of a bike gang called Gigaa. Judau successfully stole Zeta after fighting Bright and Emma then Haman's independent force Manivaring entered the colony. First, Judau agrees to destroy Ahgama after talking with Manivaring. However, Fa and Emma convinces him and he ends up protecting Ahgama. Anways it becomes Judau in Zeta vs Manivaring inside the colony with Emma piloting Mk II as well. Roux shows up from La Vie En Rose and Elbow Smash shows up. Elbow is an AE technician. Oh ya, members of Gigaa joins Ahgama crew. Apparently Gigaa and Ahgama crew don't like each other. Emma might die (don't ask me). Haman and Bright met or got close enough to have a dialog. Bright rejects Haman's offer about agreeing to the Zabi family's return. Judau kicks all the weak members of the Ahgama crew to La Vien Rose and now Gigaa controls Ahgama. Next is a plan to retake Shangria. Apparently Bright and Ahgama are successful at the retake. Behind the scenes Char helped out with this as his last salute to the crews of Ahgama. Camille becomes missing and Fa returns to Ahgama. the scenario switches to Earth, where Bright heads there to talk with the Earth Federation Forces. The EF official tells him, "Char is going to monitor Haman." in response to Bright's displeasure about giving Haman Side 3. Judau becomes pissed and punched the EF official. Judau is jailed. Amuro, Hayato, Beltochika came up a plan to rescue Judau and do so. From them, they hear Camille is at Hong Kong (doing something. sorry the kanji is too blurry). Haman laughed at Bright and Judau's debacle. Ok, Haman Kahn's dictatorship started and she began to purge any that resisted. She also worked on a plan to take over Earth. Judau and Roux infiltrates the colony and is suprised at the fact they don't feel Char's presence. They only feel Haman's dictatorship. Judau recognizes that Haman is going after Earth. So he decides to kidnap Mineva but fails. Haman's force centering around Axis heads toward Earth. EFF panicking asks for any help. It says that Fa might become the next Emma (Fa bitchslap!). It also says that Char hasn't killed Haman because he was too busy commanding a force responsible for assassinating all of Earth Federation high officials. After the EF government passes a legislature giving a go sign for Space Migration, Char joins Haman's force. Mineva is happy about Char's return. Char kills Haman when her force was about to attack Earth. During this Bright rescues Mineva. In the last battle, the whole world sees Judau's NT thingy. Judau apparently says something like "being selfish won't free the people and Char's way is selfish too". Char agreed to what Judau said and he actually has a long quote here (which I don't feel like translating, something like people being able to understand each other and able to conquer space, blah blah blah). Camille heard this. The story ends with Judau joining the Mars exploration and Mineva going to Earth.
This plan was clearly written before the end of Zeta since Emma was still alive, and I've heard that Tomino killed Emma and Henken off cause he had nothing to do with the characters anymore. Of course by the time we finally got ZZ the plan was altered but still included Char's return. But as the plan for CCA got approved Char would no longer appear. This is why Glemy a do nothing pilot in love with Roux rose the ranks at ridiculous speeds and had a total 180 character change.

Speaking of which... this and another outline of ZZ Gundam that toysdream posted are both, in my opnion, totally superior to the ZZ Gundam we got.
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Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:54 pm

I actually liked ZZ better than Zeta.

There, I said it.

I didn't really like Zeta. I realize that puts me in the minority here, but I felt that it was too pessimistic. Not that I expect candy and rainbows from a war drama, but Zeta took it too far, to the point of seriously warping characters in order to provide a satisfactorily dramatic ending. (I'm looking at you, Emma!)

ZZ takes a different approach. Instead of diving straight into gloom and doom, it shows things from the point of view of people who haven't spent the last few months fighting for the fate of the Earth Sphere. Judau doesn't really throw in with the AEUG whole-heartedly for quite a while (and after all, why should he? He's just a kid from Side 1, after all), but once he does, the tone of the series starts getting more serious.

I enjoyed ZZ more than Zeta primarily because it doesn't take itself too seriously. Yes, I realize that a war drama is meant to be serious, but that doesn't mean that it has to be completely humorless. There's a fine line between taking yourself seriously and taking yourself too seriously. While most people seem to loathe ZZ for poking fun at itself, I think that's one of its greatest strengths.

But then, your mileage may vary.
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Post by scythedd7 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:46 pm

I don't know myself on ZZ. I really liked the second part of ZZ, but not really because of the main characters, cause other then Roux and Judau (most times) really really bugged me. Why are they fighting? I don't get it. Them all seem to hate it. And those two dudes whose names fail me, omg! I hated them. More then I hated Jerid! (Who I loved to hate, which was a good thing)

The first 7 or 8 episodes I thought really really where just terrible. I understand that the AEUG had been weakened, but the Gundamjacks where just annoying. Try to go in to any military base where at least some of the people are devoted, and try to steal a tank. Tell me how that goes? Oh wait, they shoot you before you get to the tank. Or at least after they recapture the tank! jeez! My favorite villain from Zeta gets flushed down a toilet too! Man, now that I think about it, I really didn't like most of ZZ at all! It just to much of a difference from what had come before, and the characters I just couldn't like since I didn't relate or see why they left on the Argama in the first place.

I guess a comparison I would draw would be Star Wars. Gundam and the original are similar enough, and then Empire Strikes Back gets way darker and broadens the depth of the material but then instead of Return of the Jedi (which lowered the darkness ('return' instead of 'revenge') and replaced it with Ewoks!:D ) we get Space Balls as its sequel. WTF? Sure it maybe good as a stand alone movie/series in zz case, but I just don't see ZZ as a good conclusion of the cliffhanger of Z. Not as something that the title suggests as being close companion series. They're aimed at to different audiences and it seems to be the trend most prefer to some large degree one or the other, and rarely (the occasionally) liking both on equal ground. You have to watch both to get the full story and it just stinks that they are so different, at least from the end of one to the beginning of the other
...?

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Post by Ryvius » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:33 pm

Mark064 wrote:This plan was clearly written before the end of Zeta since Emma was still alive, and I've heard that Tomino killed Emma and Henken off cause he had nothing to do with the characters anymore. Of course by the time we finally got ZZ the plan was altered but still included Char's return. But as the plan for CCA got approved Char would no longer appear. This is why Glemy a do nothing pilot in love with Roux rose the ranks at ridiculous speeds and had a total 180 character change.

Speaking of which... this and another outline of ZZ Gundam that toysdream posted are both, in my opnion, totally superior to the ZZ Gundam we got.
:shock:

For the heck of it, I am very interested to hear the other outline if you could post it.

And yeah I have to say, boy that would've made for an epic series. Emma and Fa playing bigger roles in ZZ would've been really cool, instead of a lot of the dumb characters like Beecha/Monda, etc.

I now want the 30th Gundam Anniversary to be a retake on ZZ. Haha.

Also makes me think of the possibilities they could've had if they brought in Kamille during CCA. Even though I still love the movie, having him in there betwee Amuro and Char would've made things far more interesting I'd say.

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Post by Mark064 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:03 am

This one is less of an outline of the story and more of an outline of more of the original mobile suit ideas. But still in my opinion beats the final outcome of the ideas.
toysdream wrote:The original plan for the second half of the series was that the Axis forces would stage an invasion of Earth using ballutes and HRSL capsules, landing a large force of mobile suits without any motherships or support vehicles. Designs were commissioned for a variety of amphibious mobile suits - the Zaku Mariner, the Gaza Mariner, the Methuss Mariner - which both sides would use to secure their splashdown sites and escort their landing forces safely to dry land. The mobile suit forces would then have to make their way over land in caravan formation; the Mission ZZ book notes that it's impossible to operate flying platforms like the Dodai and Base Jabber without a support base on the ground, so instead we'd have a lot of a ground convoys centered around vehicles like the Zaku Tanker.

At this point, the plan was that the Axis landing forces would consist largely of upgraded One Year War-era mobile suits. Specifically, these would be space mobile suits retrofitted for ground combat; for example, the Dowadge was originally supposed to be a ground version of the Pezun Dowadge, which is why it has the same name, and the original design for the Desert Zaku was based on the MS-06R High Mobility Type rather than the One Year War-era MS-06D Zaku Desert Type. Many of these Axis mobile suits, such as the Zaku Mariner, were meant to be variations of a new "final model" of the Zaku series known as the Zaku III. However, since the Zaku III itself hadn't been designed yet, the designers just assumed it would look pretty much like the standard Zaku II and figured they could match up the details later.

Then, at the last minute, the writers changed their plans and decided to just give all the spaceships Minovsky craft systems so that they could carry their mobile suits down to Earth. This eliminated any need for ballutes and HRSL capsules, not to mention amphibious mobile suits to secure the landing sites. And since the Axis ships would be loaded with the same mobile suits that had already appeared in the first half of the show, all the Dom and Zaku variants that were in the design process suddenly became leftover One Year War machines operated by Zeon remnants who had stayed behind on Earth. (Any postwar technology they possessed, like the huge beam cannon carried by the Dowadge Kai, was explained away as booty plundered from Federation bases.)

The Zeta Plus, which was meant to appear during the Dakar battle, was eliminated for other reasons. Since there was already a Gundam team aboard the Argama, the writers were worried that adding even more Gundams into the mix would simply confuse the viewers. They had also decided to push the rest of the AEUG and Karaba forces into the background, which is why the Sturm Dias, originally meant for use by elite AEUG special forces, ended up being given to Zeon loyalists instead. In the end, the only new AEUG/Karaba machine to appear in the story was the GM III.

And finally, a note regarding the Zaku III. As noted above, the original plan was that this would simply be a "final type" of the Zaku II, which had remained in use because its versatile design allowed it to be customized for things like desert and water environments. Designer Masahiro Oda seized on the idea of the Zaku as being an all-purpose, infinitely extensible machine, and his design for the Zaku III became more and more grandiose as he came up with options like anti-ship mega cannons and extension boosters. By the time Oda started coming up with upgrades like a chest-mounted hi mega cannon and optional funnel containers, the staff decided that the Zaku III had become too all-purpose, and these features were assigned to separate machines like the Geymark and Doven Wolf instead. (Incidentally, Oda was also the main writer of the original MSV profiles, and it seems likely that his concept for the "final type" Zaku III is similar to what he had in mind when he originally described the MS-06R-3 Zaku III in the MSV kit manuals. Even its white-and-gray color scheme is similar to what Oda is said to have intended for the MSV incarnation.)
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Post by Ryvius » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:40 am

Dang, sucks we didn't get to see the Zeta Plus or Zaku III's.

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Post by krullnar » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:57 am

The only thing that annoyed me about ZZ is that most of the characters are mentally retarded.
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Post by Crusader » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:53 am

I like Zeta, i would say it's probably my favorite series. I just felt they glossed over the villians in the show except Glemmy. August and Rakan didn't appear very much. The enhanced Mashima (cant spell it in english) didn't have much screen time.

Still though it was good to watch.

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Post by Godaiger » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

thehod wrote:
One of the few things that bug me is Glemy Toto coming out of nowhere to oppose Haman. I know from listening to the Gundamn! podcasts and reading some stuff on other, that it was meant for char to rebel.
Which Gundamn! episode was it? I like to listen to that.
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Post by Kavik Ryx » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:19 pm

Godaiger wrote:
thehod wrote:
One of the few things that bug me is Glemy Toto coming out of nowhere to oppose Haman. I know from listening to the Gundamn! podcasts and reading some stuff on other, that it was meant for char to rebel.
Which Gundamn! episode was it? I like to listen to that.
A tale of Two Zetas. The episode covers both parts of the Zeta duology.

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Post by Godaiger » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:17 pm

Kavik Ryx wrote:
Godaiger wrote:
thehod wrote:
One of the few things that bug me is Glemy Toto coming out of nowhere to oppose Haman. I know from listening to the Gundamn! podcasts and reading some stuff on other, that it was meant for char to rebel.
Which Gundamn! episode was it? I like to listen to that.
A tale of Two Zetas. The episode covers both parts of the Zeta duology.
Thanks
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Post by krullnar » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:42 pm

I still think the characters are mentally challenged.
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Post by Godaiger » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:13 pm

I'm glad there's a thread about ZZ because I've been meaning to mention this, One of the largest anime polls ever has been conducted in Japan by the TV channel Animax, the men's magazine Brutus and the video rental chain Tsutaya. A whopping 187,373 people voted for their favorite anime titles, characters and songs.

This poll refutes any argument from anti-ZZ fans outside Japan who claim that ZZ is considered the Black Horse of the franchise as it ranked 86 on the list and guess which popular anime it beat, are you ready? Slayers. That's right, ZZ beat Slayers, the anime many US anime fans consider to be one of the most treasured titles ranked 92.

But guess which title was number, MSG Gundam, that's right the original 1979 show topped the list, which proves just how popular Gundam is, I'm also happy that Lupin the Third ranked second, it's a fun anime. I'm just dissappointed that Grendizer didn't make the list :cry: although it did reach the Top 100 of the Mecha category. And the Dragon Ball at number 4 is the original superior series where's Goku's a kid not DBZ.

http://www.mania.com/ultimate-anime-pol ... 24856.html
1. Mobile Suit Gundam
2. Lupin III
3. Doraemon
4. Dragon Ball
5. Space Battleship Yamato
6. Heidi, Girl Of The Alps
7. Neon Genesis Evangelion
8. Star of the Giants
9. Tomorrow’s Joe
10. Detective Conan
11. Dragon Ball Z
12. Sazae-san
13. Chibi Maruko-Chan
14. Galaxy Express 999
15. Candy Candy
16. Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
17. Touch
18. My Neighbor Totoro
19. Fist of the North Star
20. Initial D
21. Future Boy Conan
22. Dog of Flanders
23. Laputa: Castle in the Sky
24. Astro Boy
25. Urusei Yatsura
26. Yu Yu Hakusho
27. Z Gundam
28. Pokemon
29. Rose of Versailles
30. City Hunter
31. Devil Man
32. Mazinga Z
33. Aim for the Ace
34. Crayon Shin-chan
35. One Piece
36. Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro
37. Muscle Man
38. Macross
39. Slam Dunk
40. Tiger Mask
41. Gatchaman
42. Anpan Man
43. Rurouni Kenshin
44. Pazeru 2
45. Akira
46. Card Captor Sakura
47. Sanzenri
48. Cowboy Bebop
49. Raigamarusukaru
50. Princess Mononoke
51. GTO
52. Gundam Wing
53. Mobile Police Patlabor
54. Cat’s Eye
55. Captain Wing
56. Ojiyaru Maru
57. Legend of Galactic Heroes
58. Cyborg 009
59. Maison Ikkoku
60. Dr. Slump
61. Time Bokan
62. Marine Triton
63. Trigun
64. Kimengumi
65. Attack No. 1
66. Kiteretsu
67. Bakabon
68. Ribbon Knight
69. Ranma 1/2
70. Tomorrow’s Joe 2
71. Dunbine
72. This Police Box Katsushika Ward
73. Mumin
74. Nadesico
75. Armored Trooper Votoms
76. Hunter X Hunter
77. Jungle Emperor
78. Adventure of Ganba
79. Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water
80. Magical Sally
81. GeGeGe Kintaro
82. Saint Fighter Star Arrow
83. Sailor Moon
84. Time Bokan
85. Space Monster Human Pe
86. Gundam ZZ
87. Hakeshiyon Large Devil
88. Digimon Adventure
89. Small Public Female Sailor
90. Tetsuhito 28
91. Fushigi Namruma
92. Slayers
93. Dokavenn
94. Tsukou Giants
95. Cyborg Kuro-chan
96. Casebook of Young Kindachi
97. Blackjack
98. Eight Man
99. Mikbao
100. Akazukin Cha Cha
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Post by Chris » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:51 pm

Godaiger wrote:This poll refutes any argument from anti-ZZ fans outside Japan who claim that ZZ is considered the Black Horse of the franchise as it ranked 86 on the list and guess which popular anime it beat, are you ready? Slayers. That's right, ZZ beat Slayers, the anime many US anime fans consider to be one of the most treasured titles ranked 92.
I'm not sure what you're supposed to be proving with this poll, or saying that Gundam ZZ ranks ahead of The Slayers. Aside from them being two totally different genres, Japanese fans have different tastes from American ones. So what is the point supposed to be?

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Post by Darkerangel » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:26 am

I don't know. I might be the only one here who agrees with this, but I feel like everyone should see all 18+IGLOO gundam shows and watch just about every episode. Excluding G-Saviour, Astray, Trilogy movies, SD, and episodes devoted to flashbacks.

Even though I haven't been here long, I can say after reading people posts there is not one gundam show people agree upon to "skip" besides the ones I listed as "excluding". The trilogy on the other hand, you can watch, but it's not a necessary "need to," along with Astray. And I say just about every episode because all in all, it's leading up to something.

bottom line, watch the show first, then read the reviews.

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Post by Casval Rem Daikun » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:17 am

Well, I don't think there's anyone here that'll say you have to see G-Saviour or else your life as a Gundam fan is an empty hollow thing composed of pure unfiltered regret over skipping the majesty, the wonder, the soul lifting experience that is... G-Saviour. :lol:

It's probably the one people will generally say it's ok if you skip that one. ;)

As for ZZ, I didn't like it the first time I watched it honestly. It felt like a tired, worn out version of Zeta. But then I realized that was the whole point.
The end of Zeta took out just about all the characters you cared about or at least were interested in. Some for no good reason other than apparently if they have nothing further to add, kill 'em and make them a Newtype ghost.

Emma's death for example, served absolutely no purpose to me, and totally made the scene where Camille snapped her out of her stupor by nearly spacing himself (you really gotta care about someone to pop your visor in space) a total waste of time.

Besides all that, most of the Argama's pilots wer dead, wounded or missing, and pretty much all their mobile suits were destroyed or seriously damaged. The Methuss was their front line suit at the start of ZZ, with the Zeta barely functional and Fa their most capable pilot. Any more grim and dark at that point would have driven anyone, even our man Bright to say screw it and ram the ship into Haman's flagship with all the reactors rigged to overload. The comedy at the beginning of ZZ works in that it helps counter the "why do we even bother with this crap?" vibe the Arghama crew must have been feeling as they limped into Shangri-La. Granted, it was forced and not that well executed.

Had I been bright I'd have dumped the ship in the Fed's laps, dismissed the crew and gone home and work out all that pent up horniness on Mirai. Let Amuro and Hayato do some work in space for a change. His sense of duty wouldn't let him do that of course, but he knew he needed a Newtype pilot if they were to survive, and it wasn't like he could have put an ad out for one. He took what he could get, along with the baggage it came with.

Honestly, I'd have shot Beecha at least 6 times, and Mondo 5 (he was at least useful in Moon-Moon), but Bright put up with all their crap, and eventually got Beecha to a point where he had to be less of a complete waste of oxygen.

Honestly, Asides from Bright and poor old Astonage, the only person I found likable was Chara Soon, and she got the same raw deal in the end as Mashymere, who while annoying, was an entertaining fop and a little tragic in his devotion to Haman, who must have had her Newtype Jedi Mind trick set on full brainwash when she dealt with him.

I like ZZ far, far more than Destiny, and I'd place it above Victory Gundam as well, due to Victory being clearly the product of an unhealthy mind, and the one instance I really feel bad for the hero is tied to the worst death scene ever. (Don't look in that helmet Uso. Just... don't.) I think the only ways Tomino didn't kill off women in V was hanging and tossed in a Volcano.

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Post by Godaiger » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:12 am

Chris wrote:
Godaiger wrote:This poll refutes any argument from anti-ZZ fans outside Japan who claim that ZZ is considered the Black Horse of the franchise as it ranked 86 on the list and guess which popular anime it beat, are you ready? Slayers. That's right, ZZ beat Slayers, the anime many US anime fans consider to be one of the most treasured titles ranked 92.
I'm not sure what you're supposed to be proving with this poll, or saying that Gundam ZZ ranks ahead of The Slayers. Aside from them being two totally different genres, Japanese fans have different tastes from American ones. So what is the point supposed to be?
Well, you'll usually find a lot of Gundam fans who hate ZZ who love to point out that ZZ is considered the least popular of the entire Gundam franchise (Japanese fanbase included), I'm not kidding they do that a lot, and it gets pretty annoying. ZZ isn't one of my all time favorites but is by no means the worst of the franchise or the least popular.
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Post by ShadowCell » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:16 am

That you'll find such fans in the Western fandom is absolutely meaningless to the Japanese fandom.

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