Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

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Post by toysdream » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:51 pm

J-Lead has a bunch of questions about Formula Wars 0122, and fortunately I have an old game strategy book that answers a lot of these. I also note that the events described in The Encyclopedia of Gundam comprise just the last two of the game's twelve missions; the previous missions, in which the hero runs around in the F90 and fights off an Oldsmobile invasion of Earth, are omitted from the text. Perhaps they just couldn't be bothered to mention them, but it's also possible that - as implied by the Gundam Sentinel footnote - Sunrise only considers part of the story to be "setting-compatible."

I actually find this possibility a little annoying. What this means is that Yuka Minakawa talks to Sunrise, they tell him what parts of the various side stories they do and don't accept, and then he vaguely hints at this in his final text. Thus the reader has to carefully scrutinize the resulting books to try and figure out what parts of the game or story are actually Sunrise-approved. Now I'm starting to wonder about Silhouette Formula 91, which receives a similarly selective recap...
J-Lead wrote:1. Who is the new pilot we see in the game? I've seen him, and he's no Def Stallion...
His name is Berg Skrett (or however one cares to spell it). He's part of a special anti-Oldsmobile taskforce that the Federation Forces created to mop up the rebels, and he's based aboard the Cailum-class battleship Abrams.
2. I'm assuming that the F90 seen in the game is the same unit as from the manga, albeit repaired, but is the F91 in the game the same one as is the movie (before it got the bio computer?) If so, then the movie was far from it's first time in combat...
I guess so. As far as I know, there's only one unit. At the beginning of the game, the Abrams travels to the Frontier Side to pick up the F90, so perhaps it goes back later on to collect the F91. It seems like the Abrams picks up the F91 while Berg is on Earth, so by the last two missions (the only events described in The Encyclopedia of Gundam) he's already switched to the new machine.

Incidentally, previous versions of the official timeline said that the Abrams picked up both the F90 and the F91 in February of U.C. 0122, but this new one places the final events of the game no earlier than November of that year. In any case, the F91 is returned to Frontier I in December for the replacement of its head biocomputer, so it seems that the Abrams gives it back when Berg is all done with it.
3. Where does the F90 II factor in the conflict here? I haven't seen it anywhere aside from lineart and gunpla/fix figuration form...
I don't think it appears in the game. The F90II is actually the second F90 unit, which is rebuilt and redesigned after the Federation Forces recapture it from the Oldsmobile Army. (Apparently it's also equipped with an experimental biocomputer at this point.) As such, it wouldn't show up until after the end of the Gundam F90 story, and the official timelines say it was completed in October of U.C. 0121.

And as for the Victory Gundam Hexa...
I dunno, I have trouble taking that in, be it official info or not. Forgive me if I'm being stubborn, but I was always under the impression that the V Gundam Hexa was almost the exact same suit as the V Gundam itself, the only difference being a different head design with more sophisticated sensor array.
Yep, and that's what every previous publication says, too. I suppose it's possible that they eventually removed the docking functions to create a simplified, "mass production" version of the Hexa, but while this is an interesting idea there's never been any mention of this before.

latenlazy wrote:Anyways...given that Hathaway's Flash been shifting and out of canon for so long I'm rather curious on what it has to say about it...
The summary in the main text is fairly brief, but it covers the main points of the story, and the timeline in the back lists pretty much all of it. So at first glance, it looks like Sunrise is endorsing the entire thing.

Kosh wrote:Wouldn't the fact that the orbit is slower make targeting, you know, easier?
You'd need split-second timing either way, so that doesn't really matter; the moon's slower rotation just reduces your window of opportunity. Not to mention that the moon is tide-locked relative to Earth, so the near side is is always facing us, and our planet might block an enemy's shot at Von Braun a lot of the time.

Then again, a lot of Gundam lore is premised on the notion that you can't see Earth from Side 3, which can be disproven simply by looking at a scale map of the halo orbit. So the level of scientific accuracy here isn't always very high. :-)

As for the "generation" scheme, this is pretty much how it was established in The Anime's Zeta Gundam books, and then repeated in the Entertainment Bible series. EB 3 confirms that the Sazabi is a fourth-generation machine, since it has both a psycommu control system and a powerful mega particle cannon connected directly to its generator via a mega condenser. But I'm not sure whether the Nu Gundam and Jagd Doga have enough firepower to qualify, or if they're merely "quasi-fourth generation" types like the Qubeley and The O.

Incidentally, The Anime's "Zeta Gundam Part 3," which first introduced this generational concept, also classified the Byarlant, Palace Athene, and Bolinoak Samaan as third-generation types on the grounds that, even though they don't transform, they're similarly specialized. One could say that the original definition of the third generation types was that they combined the general-purpose attributes of the second generation with the specialized abilities associated with mobile armors. Over time, this more nuanced definition has been simplified to just "transformable mobile suits."
5th Generation: Penelope and Xi Gundam... What is the main "new characteristic" here?
The Minovsky craft system, which gives them unlimited atmospheric flight and the ability to enter and leave the atmosphere at will.

As for the Second Era types, they stop keeping track of "generations" at this point. It wasn't a terribly good idea in the first place, and I'm kind of glad they gave it up. :-)

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Post by J-Lead » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:14 pm

Kosh wrote:All I can say is, Bandai, will you give me a Rick-Dom with Beam Sabers, since you're so intent in putting Beam Bazookas in every Rick-Dom? It had beam sabers in the novels...
As I mentioned before in a different topic, I believe I remember hearing that the Rick Dom's beam bazooka runs off it's own seperate power source, which puts no stress on the mobile suit's reactor, so they're an exception in terms of what the Rick Dom can and can't do, be they canon or not. (We even see Zaku's using them from time to time, specifically in Evolve 10.)

J-Edit: Oh, I just noticed Mark answered all my questions. XD I actually have the game myself, and I've been trying for years to figure out exactly what was going on. Gracias, your a godsend! :D
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Post by toysdream » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:16 pm

J-Lead wrote:As I mentioned before in a different topic, I believe I remember hearing that the Rick Dom's beam bazooka runs off it's own seperate power source, which puts no stress on the mobile suit's reactor, so they're an exception in terms of what the Rick Dom can and can't do, be they canon or not.
The explanation in the MG Rick Dom kit manual says it's an experimental weapon with greater destructive power than a regular beam rifle, but it takes a long time to charge. I don't think it really explains what it uses for an energy source, though.

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Post by Koshernova » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:21 am

Mark:

Thanks for your clarifications! I personally find the concepts of generations of Mobile Suits interesting. I think it was one of the (few) technological concepts of the CE that was interesting. This shows me that the concept is good if it's used a priori to planning the show. With UC it's more retconning or ret-explaining (however you want to call that), which is why there are so many gray areas. Really, following the animation there's only three clearly defined paradigm changes (invention of the MS/invention of movable frame and linear seat/invention of miniaturised MS).

Anyhow, it's interesting to have that little info about the MG Rick Dom's manual. I was going to say, J-Lead, that as far as canon is concerned, the Beam Bazooka simply doesn't exist, hence its inclusion is an acknowledgement of the novels really... which gets my bone more because they could always include the five or six pieces of plastic needed to make a real beam saber :(

But I must stop fangasming over the novels, seriously. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go sit in a corner and cry about Kusko Al never being featured in animation.

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Post by AmuroNT1 » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:24 am

I'm honestly a little confused...Sunrise accepts Hathaway's Flash as official, in its entirety? Now, correct me if my memory fails me (a depressingly common event), but didn't Hathaway get into the Mufty organization by telling them that he shot down the Alpha Azieru, an event that only happens in the Beltorchika's Children version of events?
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Post by toysdream » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:08 am

AmuroNT1 wrote:I'm honestly a little confused...Sunrise accepts Hathaway's Flash as official, in its entirety? Now, correct me if my memory fails me (a depressingly common event), but didn't Hathaway get into the Mufty organization by telling them that he shot down the Alpha Azieru, an event that only happens in the Beltorchika's Children version of events?
Ah, good point. Let me amend that to say that Sunrise apparently endorses a version of Hathaway's Flash which would theoretically be compatible with the animated continuity. As with Gundam Sentinel, I guess there are a few bits that would need to be tweaked or removed to meet Sunrise standards, and the bit about Hathaway killing Quess would be one of them.

As I recall, the actual chain of events was that Hathaway's destruction of the Alpha Azieru, as depicted in the Beltorchika's Children novel, gave him enough credit with the Federation government that he received a cushy job as an environmental observer with free access to Earth. The fact that Hathaway can come and go as he pleases is a definite asset for a resistance leader, so this is certainly something of a plot point.

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Post by AmuroNT1 » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:40 am

Ah, I see. I suppose just being Bright's son is enough to land him such a cushy job in the regular UC universe. Thanks for the clarification.
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Post by Koshernova » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:32 pm

Another question!

Do we ever get a better insight as to the socio-political organisation of the Principality of Zeon?

I'm just curious as to its internal functioning. I know about the puppet Assembly which the Zabis have in their pocket. I assume they were Side 3's ruling parliament which was taken over by Zabi loyalists. My point is, do we get any insight at all as to the internal workings of the regime? How is dissent dealt with?

I'm curious because it is a big plot point that the Principality establishes a monarchy, with aristocrats and all, which I find a bit... well, I find it breaks the setting in a major way. In this day and age nobody would dream of simply declaring a monarchy. If anything, you have dictators taking over Republics, but they generally try to keep the appearance of democracy from the previous Republic, though not in fact of course.

I doubt there's any proper explanation of any of this, really, but I honestly want to know if we're meant to take Zeon as a monarchy in the full sense of the term (fully accumulated power on the executive), or if it functions more like a fascist state (suppression of opposition, crushing of dissent, destruction/coercion of union leaders, etc etc etc).

I suppose this also begs the question regarding the organisation of the Federation, but if I remember correctly we know more about it, at least the way they divide up local colonial government...

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Post by toysdream » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:00 pm

These questions are probably addressed in one or another of the existing books, but they're kinda beyond the scope of the relatively concise Encyclopedia of Gundam.

You're right, though, that republic -> monarchy defies the traditional evolutionary path. Going by the precedents of Rome and France, it goes monarchy -> republic -> empire, since ditching your representative democracy in favor of a tyrannical dictator goes down a lot more smoothly when you can say "Hey, at least we don't have a king." :-)

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Post by Pegasus » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:13 am

I most certainly look forward the details on the Zanscare Empire and the Space Age of Warring states. I have a question though, does this tome give any indication of exactly happens in the aftermath of the Zanscare war? After all the final battle was almost a no-score-draw.
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Post by Koshernova » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:13 am

toysdream wrote:These questions are probably addressed in one or another of the existing books, but they're kinda beyond the scope of the relatively concise Encyclopedia of Gundam.

You're right, though, that republic -> monarchy defies the traditional evolutionary path. Going by the precedents of Rome and France, it goes monarchy -> republic -> empire, since ditching your representative democracy in favor of a tyrannical dictator goes down a lot more smoothly when you can say "Hey, at least we don't have a king." :-)

-- Mark
Indeed. While I'm not really for this silly, artificial "Nazification of Zeon", I would welcome a "Fascification of Zeon" because it would make the regime have a much more realistic structure.

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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by doghunter1 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:35 am

Resurrecting this thread with this question:

toysdream wrote:

As per Sunrise, the First Gundam movies "take precedence" over the TV series version, partly because we see Hayato's Guncannon in the space museum in Zeta Gundam. On the other hand, the Zeta Gundam TV series takes precedence over the movies, because it's compatible with Gundam ZZ. The other versions are still "official" but slightly less so than the preferred ones.

Didn't you say one animated work shouldn't overshadow another animated work?

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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by toysdream » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:25 pm

doghunter1 wrote:Didn't you say one animated work shouldn't overshadow another animated work?
Well, this is Minakawa's explanation. In any case, it does go on to say that "The other versions are still official, but slightly less so than the preferred ones."

I think Hiroyuki Kitazume is probably the only person in Japan who noticed that M'Quve doesn't die in the Gundam movies, since he went to the trouble of killing him off all over again at the start of "Char's Deleted Affair."

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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by doghunter1 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:57 pm

toysdream wrote:
Well, this is Minakawa's explanation. In any case, it does go on to say that "The other versions are still official, but slightly less so than the preferred ones."

I think Hiroyuki Kitazume is probably the only person in Japan who noticed that M'Quve doesn't die in the Gundam movies, since he went to the trouble of killing him off all over again at the start of "Char's Deleted Affair."

-- Mark
So in layman's terms, neither version contradict the other, but Sunrise perfers going for the movie version.

Speaking of officiality, what about picture dramas, like the recent picture drama adaptation of Frozen Teardrop, are they official?

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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by toysdream » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:37 pm

doghunter1 wrote:So in layman's terms, neither version contradict the other, but Sunrise perfers going for the movie version.
Well, they do contradict each other in some places. According to Minakawa, in these cases, Sunrise favors the movie version.

I don't think that's entirely true - as I noted, M'Quve doesn't die in the movie version, and the White Base doesn't actually participate in Operation Odessa (it's busy fighting the remnants of the Ral team). I think on the Japan side, it's generally assumed that both these things happened somehow, but people generally don't think about it too hard and you probably shouldn't either. :-)
Speaking of officiality, what about picture dramas, like the recent picture drama adaptation of Frozen Teardrop, are they official?
As we've discussed many times on these boards, Sunrise's policy is "only filmed works are official." So there you go!

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Post by Zeonista » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:15 pm

Koshernova wrote:Another question!

Do we ever get a better insight as to the socio-political organisation of the Principality of Zeon?

I'm just curious as to its internal functioning. I know about the puppet Assembly which the Zabis have in their pocket. I assume they were Side 3's ruling parliament which was taken over by Zabi loyalists. My point is, do we get any insight at all as to the internal workings of the regime? How is dissent dealt with?
I do believe the upcoming Origin OAD mini-movie series will cover such events to your satisfaction. I have proceeded on the proposition that the Principality was still a republican government on paper, but real power was in the hands of the Zabi family, who created a powerful multi-level executive branch. However, the purges had ended any real political opposition, and political dissent could lead to real trouble. like all good radical revolutionary governments, the Principality had state police, both secret & not-so-secret to enforce compliance to government policy. There were several bomb plots against the Zabis, and Gihren Zabi in particular, so dissension could & would be regarded as the outward sign of conspiracy.
I'm curious because it is a big plot point that the Principality establishes a monarchy, with aristocrats and all, which I find a bit... well, I find it breaks the setting in a major way. In this day and age nobody would dream of simply declaring a monarchy
.
Ah, but it's been done before twice, in France, with Napoleon Bonaparte & Louis Napoleon III. ;) (One could also make a case for Octavian Caesar Augustus, but let's stick to more modern examples.) In particular, the Zabis sometimes remind me of the Bonapartes, albeit with a collective mindset more Revolutionary and less indulgent. The French Revolution was much the pattern setter for the progression of high-minded insurrection to autocratic dictatorship paying lip-service to the original ideals. Again, the Origin animation will be helpful in explaining things.
I doubt there's any proper explanation of any of this, really, but I honestly want to know if we're meant to take Zeon as a monarchy in the full sense of the term (fully accumulated power on the executive), or if it functions more like a fascist state (suppression of opposition, crushing of dissent, destruction/coercion of union leaders, etc etc etc).
The difference between a Reactionary Monarchy of the Capitalist-Imperialist Exploiters and the Executive Committee of the People's Republic of Perpetual Equality and Freedom is not so great in practice as one might think. Orwell of course, would have said that such comparative distinctions based on Bonapartism, Fascism, Nazism, Imperial-National Fascism, Communism, whatever-ism were all hogwash in the end. "All Zeons are equal, but some Zeons are more equal than others." :D
I suppose this also begs the question regarding the organization of the Federation, but if I remember correctly we know more about it, at least the way they divide up local colonial government...
We will learn something about them too, I'm sure. The Federation often comes across as the social-democratic state written large, somewhere between the EU as it was conceived of and Japan Inc. circa 1970.
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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by toysdream » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:29 pm

Historically, most of our terms for monarchs - such as "emperor", "prince", "dictator" - were created specifically to avoid describing someone as a "king". This was a particular point of pride for the Romans, who as die-hard republicans were happy to have absolute rulers as long as they didn't actually use the k-word. :-)

In that sense, the ambiguous term "sovereign" that we've arrived at for Degwin Zabi works pretty well - one can imagine him as a monarchical head of state with a euphemistic title that lets everyone tell themselves they're still living in a vaguely democratic system. Maybe something like "First Citizen," or "Princeps" for you Latin-speakers out there...

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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by Zeonista » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:47 pm

The continuing evolution of what Sunrise considers "official" has been excellent reading to date. It does shed some light on why Gundam Unicorn can draws on several animated and non-animated sources and still not make a definite endorsement one way or the other. The more flexible "official and semi-official" approach does seem to be more useful at times than our more delineated & rigid "canon" approach.
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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by toysdream » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:58 pm

As far back as Zeta Gundam, Sunrise was deliberately using anime cameos as a way of sprinkling magical "official" fairy dust on selected spinoff works. While the MSV guest appearances in that show also served as an excuse to recolor and repackage some existing kits, some of them - like the Guncannon Heavy Arms, Act Zaku, and newly designed Galbaldy Beta - were featured purely to legitimize the MSV and MS-X series. The same logic is probably behind a lot of the cameos in the Zeta movies and Gundam Unicorn...

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Re: Enyclopedia of Gundam: U.C. Edition

Post by doghunter1 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 am

toysdream wrote:
As we've discussed many times on these boards, Sunrise's policy is "only filmed works are official." So there you go!

-- Mark
Even if it has voice acting?

Also, if bits from Hathaway's Flash are mentioned, are the stuff between F91 and Crossbone mentioned as how Tomino wrote them in his F91 novels?

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