Cloning (SPOILERS)

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Mafty
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Cloning (SPOILERS)

Post by Mafty » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am

It seems odd that something as game changing as Cloning sees so little use in UC. Zeon apparently perfected Newtype cloning, but why are they the only ones to use it? Many people tried to clone Char, so why did nobody in years to come try to clone Amuro? Granted the Federation both fears and hates Newtypes, but this didn't stop them from forming the Newtype labs.

So instead of torturing war orphans, why didn't the Federation try cloning some of the existing Newtypes; even if the pilots refused, the Federation could have just done it without permission.

That being said why does only Neo Zeon do this? The scientists behind the Ple clones are seen talking to Glemmy in an office building, that five minutes later is utterly obliterated in Ple and Glemmys last stand. Likewise what's left of Moussa is destroyed only a few days later so it seems barely any personnel (or civilans for that matter) survived.

That being said cloning is still being used ten years later during the Pheonix Hunt, so why dosen't this ever get used elsewhere?

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MythSearcher
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Re: Cloning (SPOILERS)

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:41 am

Mafty wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am
It seems odd that something as game changing as Cloning sees so little use in UC. Zeon apparently perfected Newtype cloning, but why are they the only ones to use it? Many people tried to clone Char, so why did nobody in years to come try to clone Amuro? Granted the Federation both fears and hates Newtypes, but this didn't stop them from forming the Newtype labs.

So instead of torturing war orphans, why didn't the Federation try cloning some of the existing Newtypes; even if the pilots refused, the Federation could have just done it without permission.

That being said why does only Neo Zeon do this? The scientists behind the Ple clones are seen talking to Glemmy in an office building, that five minutes later is utterly obliterated in Ple and Glemmys last stand. Likewise what's left of Moussa is destroyed only a few days later so it seems barely any personnel (or civilans for that matter) survived.

That being said cloning is still being used ten years later during the Pheonix Hunt, so why dosen't this ever get used elsewhere?
They did clone Amuro in UC0136.
https://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/skull ... makusa.htm

But it turns out, NTs cannot really be cloned. Ple, for example, while a NT herself, her clones have to be artificially enhanced to be Cyber NT instead of naturally awaken.
The aforementioned Amuro brain clone is one successful example out of many.

The Cyber NT research on the other hand is much more successful, and people with the resources to do so has no problem(Like Iron Mask) in enhancing themselves without side effects.(Most of the side effects in the early UC was mainly due to them trying to brain wash the cyber NTs to obey them though)

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Cloning (SPOILERS)

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:04 am

Mafty wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am
It seems odd that something as game changing as Cloning sees so little use in UC. Zeon apparently perfected Newtype cloning, [...]
Did they, though? The evidence STRONGLY suggests otherwise.

The only actual clones in the Universal Century are Neo Zeon's clones of Newtype pilot Elpeo Ple, and they were unstable products at best. Ple Two and presumably the other Ple clones suffered from debilitating headaches as the result of their minds being unable to handle the newtype abilities they inherited from the original. Ple Two even defected to the AEUG because of the newtype influence of Judau and the deceased Elpeo Ple. That's NOT perfect or even really successful. Marida Cruz AKA Ple Twelve is the closest they got to a successful model, and she wasn't exactly a model of mental health and could only function as a soldier via working with her Neo Zeon brainwashing.

(I say the Ple series are the only actual clones because Gaia Gear's canonicity is ambiguous, though if it is canon that'd make Afranshe Char the only other actual clone and arguably the only successful clone newtype in light of being mentally stable. Other so-called clones are not actually clones, but computer models of people's brains or simply surgically altered cyber-newtypes.)

We're also never shown if there were any failures in the cloning process... only the successes were numbered, so there could be dozens or hundreds of failed Ple clones that were unviable from inception or died during production for every viable unit that rolled out.


Mafty wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am
[...] but why are they the only ones to use it?
Neo Zeon was at a significant disadvantage in terms of manpower and other resources. They didn't have the kind of large population the Federation did, where they would've been able to troll through groups of war orphans and the like to find potential newtypes for cyber-newtype enhancement, with the low success rate and the very high incidence of mental instability that came with it. Cloning would have been an approach more forgiving of Zeon's limited human resources, though it was an unproven technology that clearly had many undiscovered issues of its own. After the very limited success of the Ple series, even Neo Zeon seems to have backed away from clones to focus on traditional cyber-newtype enhancement, which suggests that it wasn't effective enough to be worth the resource investment it required.


Mafty wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am
Many people tried to clone Char, so why did nobody in years to come try to clone Amuro? Granted the Federation both fears and hates Newtypes, but this didn't stop them from forming the Newtype labs.
Not quite... many people have tried to create a "second coming" of Char Aznable, but the only attempt we know about that involved actual cloning was Gaia Gear's Afranshe Char in UC203.

Other "Second Coming of Char" candidates like Unicorn's Full Frontal and Narrative's Zoltan Akkanen were not clones, they were natural-born human individuals who were given cyber-newtype enhancements in an effort to manufacture a replacement for the deceased Char Aznable to carry the Neo Zeon banner. Full Frontal was the most successful cyber-newtype candidate in that program, so he was surgically altered to take on Char's appearance and voice and was given memory implants taken from the Sazabi's psycoframe to "inherit the will" of Char.

Given that contact with a newtype echo of the original was enough to get Ple Two to defect and side against her creators, would you really want to try that with Amuro, who already proved he wasn't at all opposed to fighting against the Federation if they were being dicks?


Mafty wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am
So instead of torturing war orphans, why didn't the Federation try cloning some of the existing Newtypes; even if the pilots refused, the Federation could have just done it without permission.
Probably because they saw Neo Zeon try it without much success.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Cloning (SPOILERS)

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:14 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:04 am

Probably because they saw Neo Zeon try it without much success.
And it is not worth the wait.

The EF already has many to test on if they wanted to.(See École du Ciel as an example)
Given the failure rate of finding NT in clones after they grow up, I'd really rather have grown ups(sort of) be tested so I have immediate results. Once I find a NT in the group, s/he can operate at the very moment, instead of growning thousands of identical babies and hope a dozen of them getting into the post ten odd years later, ok, maybe not that long given Ple's example of sped up growth, yet still something like only doubling the growth speed so likely 6~7 years at least.
Mafty wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am
So instead of torturing war orphans, why didn't the Federation try cloning some of the existing Newtypes; even if the pilots refused, the Federation could have just done it without permission.
It is also not like the EF wanted thousands of NT running around to begin with.
No matter how you can handle and cover up inhumane practices, I see no reason for the EF to pay for such a research program in large scale. They may have paid for a program for a couple of clones, and those failed, given the 100% fail rate up to UC0100, this is very likely a complete failure and thus they stopping funding and it can be as simple as than.
Yes, 100% fail rate, all the Ple clones aren't NTs, even the later Amuro clone is one single success case out of the many bio-brains the Jupiter Empire created, success rate is seemingly even lower than finding a NT among regular people.

While the clone babies might hate me for getting them into something they cannot opt out. I can't just release them out into the world, right? I guess killing them is an option but it'd be even worse reputation if it was found out, openning thousands of pilot training schools and orphanages around the Earth Sphere. These people might actually thank me for getting them out of their miserable lives, including those not turning into NTs, or, especially, those. All the humanitarians will also love my policy, and I might actually get a higher hit rate of NT doing it this way. I don't even care if I am completely open about this kind of project only that I cannot call it a NT project because that'd be a serious political problem due to the laplace box, I can still call it a talent searching program. My politcal support will likely be really strong, I actually have trained and useful people coming out of the facilities that I do not need to pay for expensive process to hide/kill. Why clone?

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