The Macross Valkyrie Thread

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

yazi88 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:02 am It seems to be the case for all the mainline production Valkyrie units. VF-1, VF-5000, VF-11, VF-171.
Sort of?

Most 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Generation Variable Fighter designs intended for space use do have some type of FAST Pack to supplement their internal fuel tanks and extend their operating time outside of a planetary atmosphere. The need for FAST Packs is for much the same reason described in my previous post. Regardless of their airframe sizes, all of them used that same initial generation of thermonuclear reaction turbine engine technology that had some serious efficiency problems in space because they were using reaction plasma as a propellant. The few models that didn't require a FAST Pack, like the 2nd Generation VF-4 and 3rd Generation VF-14, were mainly larger frames that either incorporated secondary engines to reduce the burden on the main engines or simply were so much larger that their internal fuel storage was adequate for long-duration space operations.

Advancements in Gravity and Inertia Control (GIC) technology and heat exchange theory made in the 2020s and the early 2030s led to a new generation of thermonuclear reaction engine technology that was adopted by the last few 3rd Generation Variable Fighters (the VF-16 and VF-17) and became a standard feature of 4th Generation VFs. The new engine concept, thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, were a massive improvement in efficiency that more or less eliminated the need for traditional FAST Packs when paired with an adequately large airframe. With a vastly more efficient engine, they no longer needed high-capacity external fuel tanks to maintain enough fuel that they could burn it at accelerated rates to produce plasma as propellant. In the process, the whole FAST Pack idea underwent a radical reversal.

The first three generations of Variable Fighters used FAST Packs that were designed around those large conformal fuel tanks and supplemental rocket engines that were necessary to extend the VF's endurance in space. Weapons systems were added almost as an afterthought, to make up for the increase in size and weight. The 4th Gen, and later, VFs went with a new concept where the FAST Packs were focused on adding large amounts of weaponry and just enough additional fuel or boosters to offset the degradation in performance caused by the extra mass of that additional weaponry.

The first few implementations were pretty minimal, just small conformal packs with a small amount of fuel slush and maybe an extra pallet of micro-missiles like the YF-19's FAST Packs. There were some limited-use packs that were used by the 3.5th Gen VF-17 late type and VF-19 2nd production type, but it wasn't until the 5th Generation VFs that the concept really came into its own with HUNDREDS of additional missiles and other weapons.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Ah I understand now. For the most part early on, the FAST/SUPER packs were mainly for fuel consumption. While the 5th Generation is more about actual weapon packs rather than the fuel consumption given how much more fuel efficient these units become with each new generation.

Makes sense. I was thinking of the weapons aspect the most earlier on, but fuel is a very big factor too especially being in Space.

Thanks for the info!
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

yazi88 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 pm Ah I understand now. For the most part early on, the FAST/SUPER packs were mainly for fuel consumption. While the 5th Generation is more about actual weapon packs rather than the fuel consumption given how much more fuel efficient these units become with each new generation.
Yeah, the FAST Packs used by the first three generations of Variable Fighters[1] were primarily about supplementing their internal fuel tanks to extend their operating time in space.

Improvements in fuel efficiency were pretty trivial in the first three generations of Variable Fighter. Apart from a few improvements in heat-resistant materials and synthesizing fold carbon for the Gravity and Inertia Control unit the design of the engines remained largely unchanged from that of the original VF-1 Valkyrie. The solution at the time was simply brute force. They designed VFs to be larger and carry more internal fuel and designed FAST Pack conformal tanks to hold increasingly large amounts of fuel slush, and scaled up the engines to match. This hit its apex with General Galaxy's VF-14 and VF-17, which were engineered to be so large that they could carry the fuel they needed for extended space operations purely internally.

It wasn't until the mid-2030s that there was any significant improvement in fuel efficiency. That came about as a result of a next-generation engine technology called the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine. That next-generation engine design was developed to be the new standard engine for the 4th Generation of VFs which were on the drawing board at the time (the YF-19 and YF-21), though they were initially tested on the VF-16 (Mylene's VF-11MAXL Custom in Macross 7 uses the initial model of burst turbine from the VF-16) and on the VF-17D/S type that was the standard Special Forces VF at the time. (It's not strictly canon, but the Master File book for the VF-19 explains the improvements as a new type of thermoelectric converter with greatly improved power conversion and cooling efficiency, and a new application of GIC technology that went beyond fuel compression or plasma stream containment to also improve turbine pressures by creating a bubble of high gravity inside the body of the engine to create higher temperatures and pressures than would ordinarily be possible. This created super-high pressure exhaust when the trapped plasma and/or intake air pushes past the edge of the gravity bubble and explosively expands. It's also noted that the improved GIC systems allowed for the reactor itself to run hotter by providing better fuel compression and containment.) It was that improvement that effectively allowed FAST Pack designs to switch from being all about fuel to all about weaponry.

The Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines that were developed for, and adopted in, the 5th Generation VFs were another radical leap forward. Describing them is kind of hard because the design is quite odd. In your normal jet engine (and thermonuclear reaction turbine engines) you normally have two distinct airflows: the air going through the body of the engine and the bypass airflow going over the outside of the engine to provide some cooling and noise reduction. Most commercial jets have high bypass turbines where the airflow around the body of the engine is as large or greater than the airflow through the turbine itself. Most military jets have low bypass turbines that have a narrow, higher-pressure bypass channel around the body of a very long engine. The Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine is... well... kind of an engine turducken. The body of the engine between the primary compressor and turbine blades has two separate sets of flow channels. The ones at the core are high temperature high pressure flow that interacts directly with the plasma stream from the reactor and around that is a lower (but still high) temperature flow that picks up the radiant heat from that central channel, with diverter channels joining the two allowing flow to be shunted from one to the other, and a nested turbine with its own transmission to allow the engine to regulate its input pressures while being driven by both the inner and outer turbine stages. There's still also a low-bypass airflow around the engine driven by the compressor fan. That was facilitated by more GIC improvements that led to even hotter reaction temperatures and better confinement of the plasma stream.


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[1] 1st Generation VFs include the VF-0, VF-0+, VF-1, SV-51, and SV-52. The 2nd Generation covers more or less all the numbers between 3 and 10, incl. the VF-X-3, VF-4, VF-5, VF-6, VF-7, VF-9, VF-X-10, as well as the non-sequential VF-3000 and VF-5000. The 3rd Generation starts from Project Nova's VF-11 and VF-14, as well as the VF-15, VF-16, and VF-17.

The 4th Generation starts from Project Super Nova (Macross Plus) with the VF-19 and VF-22, and includes the VF-171 and Sv-154. The 5th Generation starts from the YF-24 and includes the VF-24, VF-25, YF-26, VF-27, YF-28, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31, and Sv-262.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Max confirmed to be using a YF-29 in the new Macross Delta movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt4vjKw2KNk

Although I don't know whose Green VF-31 using the armored pack that is...
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Got a quick question, so which one of these is the better unit overall performance wise?

The YF-29 or the YF-30?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

yazi88 wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:00 pm Although I don't know whose Green VF-31 using the armored pack that is...
It's one of the Aerial Knights... most fans are assuming it's Bogue Con-vaart because of the red personal marking that matches Bogue's red hair, and because he's the only one of the surviving Aerial Knights who has any real development done to his character.

(Herman Kroos and Qasim Eber-hardt are too old to mesh well with Delta Flight and Walkure, Theo and Xao Jussila are collectively a single character and you can't split up the pair, so that just leaves Bogue since Keith and Roid are dead as of the end of the previous movie.)


yazi88 wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:25 pm Got a quick question, so which one of these is the better unit overall performance wise?

The YF-29 or the YF-30?
So... in terms of flight performance, the answer would be the YF-30 Chronos.

In terms of combat capability, the YF-29 wins hands down with FAR greater armament.

Basically, the YF-30 was a lightly armed technology demonstrator - actually an X-plane designated as a prototype so its developer could delay disclosure of the Fold Dimensional Resonance System's specifications to the government - while the YF-29 was a Gundam-style Super Prototype that was theoretically intended for production but was too costly in terms of materials to ever actually build in numbers.
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Shinsei Industry, Legodt & Angeloni Industries, and the Macross Frontier Fleet Arsenal had developed the YF-29 Durandal prototype in relative secrecy alongside the more public YF-25 Prophecy that was intended to become the next main fighter of the Frontier Government's New UN Forces. Construction of the prototype was halted when it turned out to be impossible to acquire fold quartz of the necessary size and purity to complete the Fold Wave System. Even Earth lacks the technology to synthesize fold quartz, so the only way to get it was to scavenge Vajra carcasses or pillage any Protoculture ruins they could find. Even then, fold quartz of the requisite size and purity to make a Fold Wave System is almost nonexistent and only commonly found in the bodies of Vajra Queen forms. It wasn't until after the start of their war with the Vajra that the Frontier fleet acquired the fold quartz they needed to complete a single YF-29.

The sheer scarcity of the fold quartz necessary to manufacture the fold wave system made the YF-29 the single most expensive aircraft to ever fly and effectively impossible to mass produce.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

I hope the next movie better give a good explanation where did Xaos get all the expensive components to make their YF-29.

Anyway, I've discussed about sci-fi stuffs in the West that lifted designs from Kawamori and other Japanese mechanical designers, but never talk about Transformer. Is it true that there is a version of Starscream (in animation) having lifted some details from the VF-1? I've heard just rumor just recently and have been trying to find any confirmation to no avail. I doubt it anyway, since most of the time Starscream transforms into an F-16 or F-22.

That said, I do kind of respect the ability of Transformers fans to remember every incarnation of their favorite characters. I just can't deal with just so many redesigns.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

False Prophet wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:08 am I hope the next movie better give a good explanation where did Xaos get all the expensive components to make their YF-29.
Odds are they probably won't even acknowledge it... though you could assume from the series that they're just bad at budgeting despite being a megacorp since they were basically out of money within a few days of having to flee their defeat on Ragna and couldn't afford fuel, ammunition, or supplies.

False Prophet wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:08 am Anyway, I've discussed about sci-fi stuffs in the West that lifted designs from Kawamori and other Japanese mechanical designers, but never talk about Transformer. Is it true that there is a version of Starscream (in animation) having lifted some details from the VF-1? I've heard just rumor just recently and have been trying to find any confirmation to no avail. I doubt it anyway, since most of the time Starscream transforms into an F-16 or F-22.
When Hasbro was first making the original Transformers toy line using various Takara toy lines and filling it out with whatever other robot designs they could license, they did a licensed redeco of the Takatoku Toys VF-1S toy that was made for the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross. The character they assigned to it was Jetfire. It became something of a sticky wicket for the cartoon, where they changed the character's name and appearance for copyright reasons (they didn't have permission to use the VF-1 in animation). The replacement character which was made for the TV series was Skyfire, who was a friend of Starscream's from before the war who was stranded on Earth and spend millions of years frozen in ice before being recovered and eventually joining the Autobots.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Seto Kaiba wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:47 pmwhere they changed the character's name and appearance for copyright reasons (they didn't have permission to use the VF-1 in animation).
The story bible for the original Transformers cartoon had a Skyfire design that was closer to the toy, which was used for a commercial before his canon appearance in the series.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

What are the differences in armament between the Kairos and Siegfried?

What are the roles of the VF-31 C, E, F, and J types?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

hitokirigarou wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:11 am What are the differences in armament between the Kairos and Siegfried?
Relatively minimal.

The Siegfried type replaced the 27mm railgun pods in the VF-31A's forearms with a lower caliber, less powerful 25mm railgun model and the weapons bay in the back of the leg that would ordinarily hold a missile pallet instead holds the storage rack for the MDP-001W Cygnus multidrones that support Walkure.

The rest of its armament is basically unchanged. There are some hints that the military spec's ordnance container is equipped with a sensor module or missile container where the multidrone charger unit is on the Siegfried, but all of the other weapons are stock and the only difference beyond that is the number of coaxial beam machine guns on its monitor turret (head).

hitokirigarou wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:11 am What are the roles of the VF-31 C, E, F, and J types?
Because the Siegfried type is an unofficial (private) spec, the variant letters are similarly not recognized by the New UN Forces.

On paper, Xaos considers Messer's VF-31F to be an Air Superiority variant, Chuck's VF-31E to be a reconnaissance, early early warning, and electronic warfare variant, Mirage's VF-31C to be a "Tactical Support" variant, and Hayate's VF-31J to be an Air Superiority support variant.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Aside from the VF-171, does Earth use other VFs of the same performance and/or combat capability as the Messiah, Lucifer, Durandal, Chronos, Kairos, and Siegfried?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

All of these units are 5th generation models, all based on the VF-24. Outside of the VF-24, no other NUNs unit can even touch these high spec models. VF-171 is 3.5 gen unit IIRC.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

I thought Earth's policy, ever since the debacle with the YF-19 and YF-21, was to keep the more advanced VFs and tech for itself. I assumed that the YF-24 plans provided to the colony worlds and fleets were actually not complete or had restrictions so as to not give them an edge over Earth.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:58 am Aside from the VF-171, does Earth use other VFs of the same performance and/or combat capability as the Messiah, Lucifer, Durandal, Chronos, Kairos, and Siegfried?
Earth, and the "federal"/"central" New UN Forces have the original 5th Generation main VF: the VF-24.

Once the Earth/Central New UN Forces decided to adopt the YF-24 Evolution as their next main fighter in 2057, as per the New UN Government's technology-sharing mandates they transmitted the specs (minus any proprietary advances and details prohibited by arms export laws) to the rest of the New UN Government member governments. It was that data that was used to develop the YF-25, YF-26, YF-27, YF-29, and YF-30. Though, because the transmitted data left a fair bit out, they had some legwork to do to fill in the blanks themselves.

Based on some remarks made about the VF-24 on the YF-29's Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet and a couple other books, the VF-24 appears to be the 5th Generation main VF with the highest performance. It's indicated that the Macross Frontier fleet government secretly developed the YF-29 in an attempt to surpass the YF-24. Whether or not it succeeded in that regard is left unsaid. The resulting YF-29 ended up being too expensive to build in any numbers, so the point may be effectively moot.


yazi88 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:23 am All of these units are 5th generation models, all based on the VF-24. Outside of the VF-24, no other NUNs unit can even touch these high spec models.
The gap in performance between 4th and 5th Generation VFs is pretty big... though not insurmountably so if there's any kind of skill disparity. The 5th Generation Sv-262 Draken IIIs used by Windermere IV found themselves on the back foot against the Brisingr Alliance's 4th Generation VF-171 Nightmare Pluses once they no longer had mind control and all of the confusion friendly fire brings to make up for the massive difference in training and experience between the combat virgin Aerial Knights and experienced Brisingr Alliance NUNS defense force.


yazi88 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:23 am VF-171 is 3.5 gen unit IIRC.
The VF-171 Nightmare Plus is a 4th Generation VF.

The model it was developed from, General Galaxy's original VF-17 Nightmare, started out as a 3rd Generation Special Forces VF. Later VF-17 variants incl. the VF-17D and VF-17S seen in Macross 7 could be called Gen 3.5 VFs as a number of the improvements introduced on those variants were technologies developed for 4th Gen VFs like the new thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines.

When General Galaxy revisited the design in the wake of the New UN Forces' problematic attempts to start phasing in the VF-19A as their next main fighter, the Gen 3.5 spec of the VF-17D/S type was revised to fully update it to meet the requirements for a Gen 4 design. It kept the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, but its Airframe Control AI was exchanged for the next-gen ARIEL model, its avionics had native fold booster support, its 2nd Gen active stealth suite was replaced with a 3rd Gen system, and it adopted a pinpoint barrier system for defense. There were also new and improved materials used in its construction, the simplified transformation, massive tweaks to flight control SW to make it an aircraft that any pilot could easily get the most out of, etc.

The VF-171EX could arguably be called a Gen 4.5 VF, since it adopted several technologies developed for 5th Gen VFs like EX-Gear and a newer passive stealth/ablative armor coating developed for the VF-25.


hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:50 am I thought Earth's policy, ever since the debacle with the YF-19 and YF-21, was to keep the more advanced VFs and tech for itself. I assumed that the YF-24 plans provided to the colony worlds and fleets were actually not complete or had restrictions so as to not give them an edge over Earth.
You thought correctly.

As mentioned above, when the Earth/Central New UN Forces transmitted the specifications for the YF-24 Evolution to the various New UN Government members the specs omitted proprietary technologies and certain other details that'd been prohibited from being exported under revised arms export laws. So the emigrant governments had to either buy reduced-capability export model VF-24s from Earth, build their own reduced capability export model VF-24s after they filled in the gaps with their own available tech, or use the specs as the starting point to develop new VFs of their own. That last option is how we got the VF-25, YF-26, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.

(It's implied in the official setting, and stated outright in Master File, that the Frontier Government and others had been motivated to develop their own VFs partly for the economic potential of selling them as a competitor to the VF-24 export variants. It's explicitly stated in official coverage of the VF-31 that that was the Brisingr Alliance's end goal, since their economy was stagnating.)
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Seto Kaiba wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:14 pmEarth, and the "federal"/"central" New UN Forces have the original 5th Generation main VF: the VF-24.
Where is this info from, if you don't mind my asking?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Got it, thanks for the info about the VF-171 being a 4/4.5 unit.

Got a question about it... the VF-171 in Delta, are they the EX ones from Frontier? I don't think they are but they have the same color scheme as the EX ones.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Do we know anything significant about the VF-24?
I mean, I know we at least know what the YF-24 looked like, and presumably the VF-24 would look very similar, but has anything ever been said about what its capabilities are relative to the emigrant fleet-developed VFs like the -25?
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

hitokirigarou wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:51 pm Where is this info from, if you don't mind my asking?
Macross Chronicle, mainly... though there are also some details about the YF-24 Evolution's development and final demonstration in other books as well, incl. Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah.

The exact source is Technology Sheet 01P, which is the fourth in a series of four articles in the official encyclopedia discussing the development of various generations of VF.


yazi88 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:21 pm Got a question about it... the VF-171 in Delta, are they the EX ones from Frontier? I don't think they are but they have the same color scheme as the EX ones.
Nope, the VF-171s used by the Brisingr Alliance's New UN Spacy defense force are the regular model VF-171. In the actual animation, they appear to be a reskin/recolor of the pre-existing CG model for the Block II VF-171 that they had previously made for Macross Frontier.

It may not be exactly the same as the VF-171-II used by the Macross Frontier fleet, however. On the Japanese official websites for Macross Delta's TV series and first movie, the Delta version of the VF-171 carries the subtitle 辺境宙域仕様 ("Frontier Space Specification" or "Remote Sector Specification"). Bandai's Mecha Colle kit for the Delta VF-171 carries the same kanji, though the packaging presents that in English as "Rim World Model".

As talked about briefly in one of my previous posts, there are basically three (actually four) options for an emigrant government to update its VFs:
  • Purchase an export variant of a new VF model directly from the government that developed it.
  • Purchase a license to build that new VF model locally from the government that developed it.
  • Develop your own new VF model locally, then become the other government in options 1 and 2.
This is, of course, modeled on the real world. That second option loosely mirrors what Japan has done with some designs provided to them by the United States incl. the F-4 Phantom and F-16 Falcon, the latter of which became the basis for the Mitsubishi F-2. The third mirrors what Japan is currently trying to do with the X-2 Shinshin, that is also known as the ATD-X and Mitsubishi F-3, with a lot of that directly referenced by the VF-31's circumstances. The VF-171, in this case, follows that second option with some emigrant governments opting to modify the specs with their own local improvements, cost-saving changes, etc. to make it better fit their needs. So the VF-171s in the Brisingr Cluster may not necessarily be exactly the same as the VF-171s in the Frontier fleet, or the ones that were operated by Earth, Eden, or anywhere else.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Dark Duel wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:18 pm Do we know anything significant about the VF-24?
I mean, I know we at least know what the YF-24 looked like, and presumably the VF-24 would look very similar, but has anything ever been said about what its capabilities are relative to the emigrant fleet-developed VFs like the -25?
Unfortunately, all we really know about the YF-24 and YF-24 Evolution is the rough development history, some minor detail involving its final demonstration before the New UN Forces brass, that it was accepted to become Earth's next main fighter in 2057, that the redacted spec became the basis for the other 5th Gen VFs, and that the Frontier Gov't developed the YF-29 in an attempt to surpass it (which may or may not have succeeded).

Development of the YF-24 started not long after first contact was made with the Vajra in 2040. It was originally set up as a joint venture between Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy. The initial YF-24 program was terminated when several testing accidents demonstrated the technologies planned for it just weren't mature enough for practical use on the battlefield. One of its three prototypes was lost in a crash when the new linear actuators its transformation was built around failed. Another seriously injured its test pilot when its prototype Inertia Store Converter began to react abnormally. Shinsei Industry independently revived the project around 2055 and delivered their own finished version called the YF-24 Evolution in 2057. Maj. Isamu Dyson of the Spacy Reserve was called up to demonstrate it before the NUNS brass. In simulated air combat, 3 YF-24 Evolutions tabled a mixed force of VF-19s, VF-22s, and a handful of air-to-air spec Ghosts outnumbering them six to one. That, plus a later demonstration in which a YF-24 Evolution carried out a pinpoint simulated reaction missile strike on a warship's bridge, sold the NUNS on the YF-24 Evolution as their next main fighter and it was approved for adoption in 2057.

All that's been said about its actual performance has been relative to the YF-29, which was supposedly developed in an attempt to surpass it...
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