MSV Handbooks

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MSV Handbooks

Post by toysdream » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:17 am

My ongoing quest to assemble the ultimate Gundam reference library just took a big step closer to completion! Thanks to the kindness of a business comrade, I now have in my hands a single-volume reprint of the "MSV Handbook" series published in 1983 (the reprint also includes a special MSV-focused issue of Bandai's MJ magazine from 1984). This reprint was published by the Dengeki Hobby folks as a show exclusive for the recent Chara Hobby 2010, so I'm pretty thrilled I was able to get my hands on it!

So what secrets have been lurking in the MSV Handbooks for the past 25-plus years? All kinds of good stuff, as it turns out! I'll break this down by volume.


MSV Handbook 1
This one probably has the smallest amount of unique material. There are lots of detailed mecha development history articles, but I think they were all reprinted virtually word for word in the early MSV kit manuals.

Although the page on the development history of the Gelgoog is identical to the text in the 1/144 Gelgoog Cannon kit manual, I don't think I'd actually bothered to read it before, so some of it did catch my attention. There's a fair amount of info here on the MS-11 incarnation of the Gelgoog, as well as the observation that Zeon's later mobile suits are functionally almost identical to the Federation's mobile suits, and that by the time the Gelgoog was introduced Zeon's mobile suit warfare concepts had been completely "Federation Forces-ized".

Ditto for the GM Cannon page. Here we're told that the Federation Forces decided to mass produce the Guncannon after it turned out to be unexpectedly effective in combination with the Gundam, but they didn't have enough Guncannons left to work out the production issues. Thus they hit on the expedient of sticking the upper half of a Guncannon on the lower half of a GM, an awkward kludge that evolved into the GM Cannon we know today.


MSV Handbook 2
Tons of new material in this one! We get several pages on the Core Fighter and its relatives, and some nifty info on the Gundam Full Armor Type and the RX-81, both of which were apparently intended for use by Newtypes. We're also told that the Full Armor system included alternate arm and leg parts, the former with built-in beam sabers and the latter with Core Booster-level rocket engines which could be detached in emergencies.

Then it's on to the amphibious machines...

We're told that the rival machines MSM-02 and MSM-03 both received a small initial production run; two months later, the decision was made to cancel the MSM-02 and mass produce the MSM-03 Gogg. By this account, both models had built-in mega particle cannons - identified here as the Kia M-23 model, an earlier version of the M-33 used in the Zeong - which weighed a total of 38.7 tons. The MSM-02 also had rocket launchers in its shoulders and back, and it's said to have a stronger resemblance to the Zaku.

It's also mentioned that the Acguy had especially good land warfare performance, and that this is why it was used as a base for most of those specialized Jaburo-invading mobile suits.

We're told that the Zock had already been approved for mass production as a "small type mobile armor", but only three prototypes had been completed by the time the war ended.


Let's stop there for a minute. Next time, MSV Handbook 3 and the MJ magazine special issue...

-- Mark

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by G-Slayer » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:33 pm

Keep up the good work, Mark. You're truly becoming the master of mecha.
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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by Bezerker » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:21 pm

It's interesting that they would have alternate arm and leg parts for the Full Armor type.

Keep up the good work :3
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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by toysdream » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:18 pm

A bit more on this business of the FA-78-1 and RX-81. Here's the relevant page from MSV Handbook 2:
Plans To Enhance The Gundam With Additional Weapons
The Federation Forces arms buildup centered on the RX suits, which proceeded as a AAA secret, involved mobile suit mass production and performance enhancement. From Operation V could be seen the Newtype awakening that the upper ranks had hoped for, and to accompany these expanded abilities, improvements were requested in the performance of the mobile suits themselves.

At the point where the end of the war was in sight, the Federation Forces were working on two projects, the RX-81 and an additional weapons system for the RX-78 type. The weapons system would be produced in the same numbers as the remaining G-number machines, and special pilots would be gathered. The RX-81 was to have enhanced mobility and armament, to approximate an 78 type which was being used by a Newtype pilot. Basically, this type could be called a perfect mass-produced RX-78, making it hard to say that the RGM-79 was truly a mass production model of the 78. The facts were known only to a few people, but from the project plan's code name alone, it clearly didn't refer simply to upgrade parts for the 78. Since no records remain of the external appearance, specs, or military characteristics of the RX-81, it appears impossible to determine how far the research actually advanced.

The additional weapons system, which was on the verge of being implemented as a project plan, was given the code name FSWS, and an RX-78 equipped with this system was to have been known as an FA-78-1. Its parts were installed on sections of the armor which saw relatively high use, namely the chest, shoulders, waist, arms, and legs, and as with the RGC-80 they were designed to be easy to attach.

As for armament, a rocket launcher was integrated into the back parts, a twin beam rifle was attached to the right arm, and missile bays were installed in the shoulders and knees. Auxiliary thrusters were to be installed in the back and legs to supplement its mobility, and different arm and leg systems were also prepared as part of the project plan. The plan was that the legs could be equipped with Core Booster-class rocket engines that could be detached in emergencies, and beam sabers could be integrated into the arms as fixed weapons.

Since the RX-78 Gundam survived until the end of the war, it couldn't really be said that it was able to fully demonstrate satisfactory performance. Due to its increased weight, this additional weapons system was unable to demonstrate any practical effectiveness, but the RX-81 could be considered an extension of this plan.
In other words, it's not so much that the RX-81 itself was designed for Newtypes, it's that this machine was intended to match the performance of a souped-up RX-78 operated by a Newtype. So that's what they mean by "perfect mass production model of the RX-78": literally, a mass-produced machine that can do everything that Amuro and the Gundam could. Sounds like a tall order!

This is of course a very different design goal from the interchangeable parts of the RX-81 "G-Line" we're familiar with nowadays. There's a possible out, though. When the RX-81 appeared in SD-CLUB as part of the M-MSV series, the accompanying profile text explained it as follows:
The RX-81 was a mobile suit designed after the One Year War as a successor to the Gundam series. The original basic plan was to increase the melee combat performance of the RX-78, but after the war the designers went back to the drawing board with the new objective of making the mobile suit's parts interchangeable, and its armament changeable depending on the situation.
By this account, the M-MSV version of the RX-81 - which has now been revamped by Hajime Katoki into the RX-81 "G-Line" - is a completely different design from the RX-81 project that was under way during the One Year War. The interchangeable parts gimmick was only introduced when the RX-81 was redesigned from scratch after the end of the war.

The kit manual from the 1/144 Gundam Full Armor Type largely repeats the same info that appears in the MSV Handbook, but I note a couple of interesting additions. One of these is a third configuration for the FA-78-1, in addition to the "normal" type and the version with leg boosters and built-in beam sabers:
In the last plan, the lower body was essentially replaced with a booster, and four beam cannons were fixed in place. When deployed in its fully equipped state, this could not really be called a mobile suit-type combat weapon.
There's also a bit more about the "classic" RX-81:
It appears that, during the planning process, the performance requirements focused mainly on improved melee combat performance, and its standard combat-level reaction speed seems to have been raised to the maximum level of the RX-78.
-- Mark

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by 1-4-4 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:47 pm

toysdream wrote: Since the RX-78 Gundam survived until the end of the war, it couldn't really be said that it was able to fully demonstrate satisfactory performance.
...What? Isn't it good to survive until the end of the war? Or should this have been translated as "Since the Gundam was destroyed at the end of the war..."?

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:45 pm

toysdream wrote:Although the page on the development history of the Gelgoog is identical to the text in the 1/144 Gelgoog Cannon kit manual, I don't think I'd actually bothered to read it before, so some of it did catch my attention. There's a fair amount of info here on the MS-11 incarnation of the Gelgoog, as well as the observation that Zeon's later mobile suits are functionally almost identical to the Federation's mobile suits, and that by the time the Gelgoog was introduced Zeon's mobile suit warfare concepts had been completely "Federation Forces-ized".
I do not quite understand this part. Does it means that the MS themselves are similiar in their internal mechanism to Federation models, or that their cockpit controls are now the same, or could it be referring to MS tactics?

Another important queston would be, when did Zeon managed to capture a Federation MS in time to use it as reference material for the Gelgoog, or could this mean that they arrived to the same, or at least similar, design on their own?

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:55 pm

There is a old MSV comic where Jonney Ridden captures a Early model GM my guess is that the traitor we see in the original series leaked the info.

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by toysdream » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:57 pm

1-4-4 wrote:
toysdream wrote: Since the RX-78 Gundam survived until the end of the war, it couldn't really be said that it was able to fully demonstrate satisfactory performance.
...What? Isn't it good to survive until the end of the war? Or should this have been translated as "Since the Gundam was destroyed at the end of the war..."?
I'll confess that this passage doesn't really make sense to me. (Actually, a lot of the text from the MSV handbooks and kit manuals strikes me as convoluted and hard to understand.) There's a similar sentence at the end of the Full Armor Type kit manual, but in that case it goes on to talk about the RX-81 rather than the full armor system:
Since the RX-78 Gundam ultimately survived until the end of the war, it couldn't be said that it was able to demonstrate satisfactory performance, but it appears that the goal was to achieve a perfect form rather than settle for the RGM-79.
In both cases, they end up talking about one of the RX-78 power-up plans, which makes me think that it's the power-up plans that failed to "demonstrate satisfactory performance". The way the Japanese text is written, though, it's just really unclear.

Gelgoog Jager wrote:I do not quite understand this part. Does it means that the MS themselves are similiar in their internal mechanism to Federation models, or that their cockpit controls are now the same, or could it be referring to MS tactics?
Here's the original context:
By the time beam weapons were implemented, Zeon's mobile suit combat concepts had become identical to those of the Federation Forces. The MS-11, like the MS-15 for melee combat use, could still be identified as a Principality of Zeon machine in terms of form, but in terms of function it was no different from the RX-78.
So this seems to refer to tactics and functionality. The Gelgoog, as a general-purpose machine with a shield, rifle, and beam saber, really does seem to have the same features as a Federation mobile suit. The same could probably be said for all the Guncannon-inspired support machines that Zeon rolled out at the end of the war.

None of this seems to have been based on actual captured machines or blueprints, but even before the combat debut of the Gundam, Zeon's mobile suit development seems to have been driven by the need to compete with the Federation's new machines. One imagines there was some spycraft involved, but we've never really been given any details.

-- Mark

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by toysdream » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:40 pm

Let's wrap this up with some highlights from MSV Handbook 3 and the MJ magazine special issue (which is described in the indicia, but nowhere else, as "Mobile Suit Variation Handbook 4").


MSV Handbook 3
This one's pretty much a waste of space. Very little new info, and most of it is given over to model dioramas and whatnot, reflecting the fact that the MSV series was winding down at this point. The only in-depth background info is on Johnny Ridden's Zaku II and the Worker Zaku.

A couple of the model dioramas have some interesting info, but I don't think it's all that "official". For example, one of them is datelined February of U.C. 0081, and shows a bunch of RX-78 Gundam units that have been shipped up to Konpeito to be fitted with Full Armor parts. That would be really fascinating if true, but the caption goes on to call it "a fantasy among fantasies" that was just an attempt to imagine a story for the FA-78-1.

There's another diorama towards the end that shows the Scarab corps (one of the more obscure Zeon units on the African front) receiving supplies while it withdraws inland in the face of the advancing Federation Forces. In this diorama, we see one Dom Tropical Test Type and two Zaku Desert Types, as well as several Magella Attack tanks and a bunch (at least seven) of regular Zaku II units which are painted in similar colors to the Zaku Desert Type. The notion that the standard colors of the Zaku Desert Type were chosen to match those used by existing machines on the African front is pretty interesting, although these regular Zakus are pretty far in the distance and we don't get a very good look at them.

Speaking of which, we know that the standard colors of the Zaku Cannon were chosen when it was expected to be tested in Africa. (EDIT: Actually in desert regions of Asia or North America.) Since these colors are almost identical to those of the Desert Type, it seems pretty plausible that these are the standard African colors.


MJ Magazine: MSV Special Collection
As mentioned earlier, this is the June 1984 issue of Bandai's MJ magazine, which was devoted entirely to late-breaking MSV info. It's a good one, although a lot of this info is also included in the MSV books published around the same time.

Much of this issue is given over to the MS-06R series, which is discussed in considerable depth, including the RP and R-2P prototype versions and various ace pilot color schemes for the R-1A and R-2 types. I've normally seen it said that roughly ten of the 22 R-1 units were later converted to the improved R-1A version, but this account is more specific: eleven R-1 units that were still on the production deck were converted on their way out the door.

Once again, we have a couple of model dioramas that would be interesting if we could take them seriously. One shows MS-07H units being tested alongside regular Goufs on Dodais, claiming that the project was eventually restarted after the Dodai was adopted as a flying platform. Another shows a Zaku Recon Type conducting airborne reconnaissance over Jaburo, thanks to a large booster on its back. The MSV kit manuals mention that these machines were used on Earth, and describes them being equipped with huge boosters, but I don't think I've ever seen the two ideas being combined like this.

There's also a section devoted to assorted Zaku and Gouf variants. Here we're told that Dozle Zabi used his custom Zaku to lead three squadrons of mobile suits into the Battle of Loum, under the pretext of a battlefield inspection. (The Japanese text specifically uses the term sentai, or "squadron," rather than the usual chuutai, or "company.") It's also mentioned that the MS-06FS was produced before the introduction of the S type, for use by commanders and units that specialized in close combat.

Finally, there's a discussion of the "White Base class," which hits a lot of the same points covered in Mobile Suit Variation 3. This is full of cool trivia, and really deserves its own section...


White Base Class Space Attack Carrier
The article begins by discussing the other carriers in use by the Federation Forces. The mysterious Trafalgar class is said to use the hull of a Magellan with a full-length flight deck attached to each side, confirming that this is the same ship we see in the Gihren's Greed cut scene animation. However, its capacity is very limited, and it can only carry twelve Tomahawk space fighters or six Public assault boats. As a result, it's classified as an open deck-type support cruiser rather than a regular carrier. A total of eight of these ships were constructed.

(Note that this is at odds with the description of the Trafalgar class in Tomino's Gundam novels, where it appears to be capable of carrying sixty space fighters. The Gihren's Greed animation certainly indicates a higher capacity, too.)

We're also told that 24 Antietam-class auxiliary carriers were constructed during the war, by converting Columbus-class transport ships.

The White Base class, meanwhile, was the first Federation Forces ship designed from the beginning as a regular carrier. This article puts its full capacity as six mobile suits and ten fighters, and says that later versions (the quasi-White Base class) increased this to 16 mobile suits and 12 space fighters, at the cost of eliminating the main guns and leaving only the close defense weapons.

Finally, we get a summary of the White Base's exploits. It concludes that the confirmed victory tally of the White Base corps came to eleven ships and more than 120 mobile suits, etc, including Garma Zabi's Gaw and Dozle Zabi's Big Zam. Given the number of machines that Amuro destroys onscreen, I don't think the latter figure would include tanks and planes, but since they mention the Big Zam it presumably includes mobile armors. I believe the White Base pilots destroy about a hundred enemy mobile suits onscreen, so a total of about 120 seems fairly reasonable to me.

-- Mark
Last edited by toysdream on Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:15 pm

toysdream wrote:There's another diorama towards the end that shows the Scarab corps (one of the more obscure Zeon units on the African front) receiving supplies while it withdraws inland in the face of the advancing Federation Forces. In this diorama, we see one Dom Tropical Test Type and two Zaku Desert Types, as well as several Magella Attack tanks and a bunch (at least seven) of regular Zaku II units which are painted in similar colors to the Zaku Desert Type. The notion that the standard colors of the Zaku Desert Type were chosen to match those used by existing machines on the African front is pretty interesting, although these regular Zakus are pretty far in the distance and we don't get a very good look at them.
Do you mean that the Zaku II units have the same paint patterns on their bodies, or that their color is the same as the main brown color of the Desert Zakus. We do have examples of the later, Zaku units painted in "ground". Topp's Zaku team which appears in 08th team is the first example that comes to mind.

However this example leads me to ask you if the same can be said from the Magella units, since the ones in 08th are also using a scheme different from the usual green.
toysdream wrote:ThereSpeaking of which, we know that the standard colors of the Zaku Cannon were chosen when it was expected to be tested in Africa. Since these colors are almost identical to those of the Desert Type, it seems pretty plausible that these are the standard African colors.
Actually it's the first time I hear about this, though I did suspect that the Zaku Cannon's paint scheme might be meant to match the are where it was meant to be deployed. Although not canon, the PS3 show a darker color scheme for the Zaku, which reminds me the colors of the double-antenna version of the Desert Zaku.

By the way, any new info on production of additional Zaku Cannon units?
toysdream wrote:Once again, we have a couple of model dioramas that would be interesting if we could take them seriously. One shows MS-07H units being tested alongside regular Goufs on Dodais, claiming that the project was eventually restarted after the Dodai was adopted as a flying platform. Another shows a Zaku Recon Type conducting airborne reconnaissance over Jaburo, thanks to a large booster on its back. The MSV kit manuals mention that these machines were used on Earth, and describes them being equipped with huge boosters, but I don't think I've ever seen the two ideas being combined like this.
Well, the existance of the MS-07H8 confirmed that the project continued, but this might just mean that it wasn't continued by a few individuals that continued the research without HQ's support. Any info if the project restarted using the remaining 3 MS-07H units or if it used new prototypes?

Hints like these makes me wonder if after their initial production runs there was any additional production of prototypes and test types like the Zaku Cannon (basically confirmed, but no solid info) , Gouf Flight type (maybe the machines at Jaburo do were made by Zeon on the OYW?) and Zaku Marine Type.

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by toysdream » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:54 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Do you mean that the Zaku II units have the same paint patterns on their bodies, or that their color is the same as the main brown color of the Desert Zakus.
I mean they're using the same eccentric color combination as the classic MSV Zaku Desert Type - mostly sandy yellow, with a dark gray area in the middle of the chest, and red cables on the head. On closer examination, the mobile suits in this picture aren't exactly in the classic MSV colors; the Desert Types have sand-colored forearms, feet, and shoulder shields, rather than olive drab and dark gray respectively. But this is all pretty close to the established African/desert colors from the original MSV designs.

For what it's worth, the Zaku Desert Types pictured on the 1/100 Dom Tropical Test Type box art also have sandy yellow shoulder shields and feet, rather than the "official" dark gray. The second MSV book claims that these background Zakus are from the Scarab corps, so this does seem to be a consistent part of their color scheme. I still have no idea which unit the "official" MSV color scheme corresponds to - it's obviously not the Caracal or Pink Panther corps, because they have their own distinct color schemes and only use the two-antenna version of the Desert Type.
However this example leads me to ask you if the same can be said from the Magella units, since the ones in 08th are also using a scheme different from the usual green.
They look a little yellowish, but it's hard to tell from these pictures.
toysdream wrote:Actually it's the first time I hear about this, though I did suspect that the Zaku Cannon's paint scheme might be meant to match the are where it was meant to be deployed. Although not canon, the PS3 show a darker color scheme for the Zaku, which reminds me the colors of the double-antenna version of the Desert Zaku.
See this thread for more on the Zaku Cannon. Actually, I misremembered; the original plan was to test this machine in central North America or western Asia, so it's initially painted in generic "desert colors" rather than an Africa-specific color scheme. So perhaps the "official" Desert Type colors are likewise a factory default, which was then tweaked by inidvidual units like the Scarab corps, or repainted completely as with the Caracal version.

Well, the existance of the MS-07H8 confirmed that the project continued, but this might just mean that it wasn't continued by a few individuals that continued the research without HQ's support. Any info if the project restarted using the remaining 3 MS-07H units or if it used new prototypes?
According to the MSV kit manuals, the project had already been scaled back to use two of the original four prototypes by the time the H-4 exploded in midair. Since we can see at least two machines in this picture, perhaps they pulled the spare ones out of mothballs.
Hints like these makes me wonder if after their initial production runs there was any additional production of prototypes and test types like the Zaku Cannon (basically confirmed, but no solid info) , Gouf Flight type (maybe the machines at Jaburo do were made by Zeon on the OYW?) and Zaku Marine Type.
All good questions, but I don't hold out much hope for getting answers at this point. In the last decade or so, the Japanese publishers have developed a distinct aversion to introducing any new backstory info, so we just keep getting the same old info republished without any attempt to reconcile contradictions or connect it to the new animated works. :-\

-- Mark

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:24 am

Regarding the Gouf Flight type, I'm crossing my fingers that after the HGUC Gouf Custom, we will eventually see a HGUC MS-07H8. If that happens, I hope it provides some new info on these branch of the Gouf family.

Regarding the Zaku Cannon color scheme, here's a picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... on0081.jpg

Could this be one of the colors scheme you mention on the other thread (maybe the low visibility one)?

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by toysdream » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:30 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Could this be one of the colors scheme you mention on the other thread (maybe the low visibility one)?
Interesting. I don't think this would be the low-visibility color scheme - that's supposed to be gray, presumably like the Zaku Flipper. This looks like a variant of the desert colors, although there are a lot of weird minor differences - dark gray shield, more sand yellow in the chest, thrusters on the backpack but not on the sides of the legs, and the cannon seems to be borrowed from the 08th MS Team version. Just another variant for the family tree, I suppose. :-)

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Re: MSV Handbooks

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:00 am

And since the RX-81 came up, you might also want to check the 4th tab of this page:

http://ps3-gundam.net/

Basically it shows all the possible combinations of the RX-81 equipment.

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