just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
Izayuukan
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 am
Location: Downunder

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Izayuukan » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:21 am

Dark Duel wrote:
Izayuukan wrote: What a-hole put Super Robot techniques and abilities (including channelling ghosts for crying out loud) in a supposed Real Robot show?
That would be Yoshiyuki Tomino and assorted script writers.
It was a rhetorical question.

Although I am grateful to Tomino for starting/inspiring the Real Robot sub-genre, I believe he either lost his way very quickly or he never truly bought into Real Robot from the outset.

Gadget
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:13 am

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Gadget » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:27 am

I thought Zeta, as in 'Z' in the English alphabets, was 'suppose' to be the last Gundam. So Tomino went ballastic and goes 'super robot'. :?:

User avatar
hellbore
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:09 pm
Location: Neo Wales, South

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by hellbore » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:49 am

If your serious, Zeta (uppercase Ζ, lowercase ζ; Greek: Ζήτα [ziːta] Zita) is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet, which also follows the other known development gundams, Delta, Lambda, Nu etc.
On Compromise: Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.
toysdream wrote:I've always been partial to the Big Cloud of Balls

User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:59 am

Or maybe "real robot" just isn't what you thought it was anyway.

User avatar
Red Comet90
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: Axis
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Red Comet90 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:49 am

Izayuukan wrote:I apologise in advance for going off topic.
Red Comet90 wrote:Do we ever see the Nu Gundam labeled as a Super Robot even though it pushes back Axis? Nope. [/color]
Well, the Nu Gundam and Zeta Gundam ARE pretty Super Robot in specific instances, one of which you mentioned regarding the deflection of Axis. I'll never forgive Zeta (the show) for Zeta (the Gundam) going Super Saiyan at the end. What a-hole put Super Robot techniques and abilities (including channelling ghosts for crying out loud) in a supposed Real Robot show?

Frankly I think Newtype powers should never have been placed in Gundam, certainly not in the form they eventually took. It cheapens and undermines the franchise, supposedly lauded for its realism. I am similarly annoyed with Thunderbirds for having characters with psychic powers.

As Gadget alluded to, Arthur C. Clarke stated that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. But that's only true in real life. In fiction, when you get such outlandish abilities cropping up - especially in a show that purports to be realistic or at least plausible - then there is a disconnect between the technological level of the show and the abilities that we see. It is then technology and magic/mysticism become separated.

My point is, the Turn A and Turn X are so advanced compared to previous Gundams that their abilities seem to be less about being realistic within the context of the show and more about throwing together a list of amazing abilities just to make the two Gundams "the best". I contend that they should be labelled Super Robots simply because they do not belong on the Real Robot category.
I think Shadowcell summed it pretty well. Real Robot just isn't what you imagine it to be. According to your meter stick the Zeta and Nu are strange because they have super robot abilities. You have to remember that all robot shows are grounded in Super Robot. The sub category came from Super Robots. Just because the Zeta and a plethora of other supposed real robot mecha display Super Robot abilities it does not mean they are Super robot. A real robot is just a super robot with camouflage in a semi real setting.
The proof of our might will forever be etched in your minds.

-- Haman Karn

Izayuukan
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 am
Location: Downunder

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Izayuukan » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:01 am

ShadowCell wrote:Or maybe "real robot" just isn't what you thought it was anyway.
Or maybe it does. Or maybe it is subjective. In any case, would you care to propose a better definition of "Real Robot" to share to the class? I mean, it's one thing to dismiss my entire interpretation so casually, quite another not to offer an alternative view in return. Some might say that sort of behaviour is rude.



[Others might say that hijacking a thread - even if it was unintentional - is also rude. For that I sincerely apologise.]

User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:04 am

Or maybe there really isn't a nice neat defining line between "real robot" and "super robot" (especially since Gundam has always blended the two) and your going on about how the Zeta Gundam does super robot-ish stuff is unforgivable is just fanboy complaining based on the faulty assumption that "real robot" shows cannot contain certain elements ever at all and if they do it is "unforgivable," and perhaps you might want to consider that before you get all holier-than-thou about your interpretations of cartoons.

It's a giant robot cartoon. Quit taking it so damn seriously.

Izayuukan
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 am
Location: Downunder

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Izayuukan » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:49 am

ShadowCell wrote:It's a giant robot cartoon. Quit taking it so damn seriously.
And yet, here you are defending said giant robot cartoon. It cuts both ways, mate. Besides, here we both are having signed up to an online forum which is all but dedicated to Mecha, and you wonder why I take Mecha seriously. Got a mirror?

As an aside, you called me a fanboy, but a fanboy of what? I am not a Zeta fanboy; I'm anything but. You might want to use another belittling term to, well, belittle me with, since it would appear that that one is such a poor fit.

And look, if you cannot see how the manifestation of the spirits of dead people into a powerful force is not even remotely allowable by the laws of physics (and therefore completely precludes a show from ever being called "realistic"); and if you cannot see how messing with a show by adding such Deus Ex Machina devices is not only bad storytelling but also wrecks suspension of disbelief and creates giant plot holes, (takes deep breath) then why are we even arguing? Our views are incompatible, therefore there's no point.

User avatar
Dendrobium Stamen
Posts: 570
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:22 pm
Location: Armoury One, L4.
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:02 pm

Izayuukan wrote:And look, if you cannot see how the manifestation of the spirits of dead people into a powerful force is not even remotely allowable by the laws of physics (and therefore completely precludes a show from ever being called "realistic"); and if you cannot see how messing with a show by adding such Deus Ex Machina devices is not only bad storytelling but also wrecks suspension of disbelief and creates giant plot holes, (takes deep breath) then why are we even arguing? Our views are incompatible, therefore there's no point.
Well, see, this paragraph (bolded parts in particular) pretty much shows the flaw in your reasoning here.

Since its creation in '79, every Gundam universe has by its very nature actively defied the known and existing laws of physics, using various measures to sidestep them, or simply ignoring them. Minovsky Physics, N-Jammers, what have you, all in place to make fundamentally impractical and improbably giant robots "realistic" within the narrow confines of their own narrative. By any rigorous standards, there's no reason why anything with a humanoid shape is automatically a superior fighting vehicle - in land warfare, there are plenty of reasons for it to be a far inferior one, in fact. But the shows usually include "Mobile Suit" in their name, so for the sake of story and merchandising, giant robots are better.

So, while I'm no fan of the Dead Newtypes Inside phenomenon myself (see recent biosensor topic), if you can suspend your disbelief enough to accept a universe where giant robots armed with rifles and swords are piloted by psychics, I don't see how said psychic chanelling their dead harem into tangible energy is any more "unrealistic" or "physics-defying"...
"Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer.
A Wind Raging Through, a Destiny sidestory.

User avatar
crashlegacy14
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:38 am
Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by crashlegacy14 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:07 pm

Izayuukan wrote: And yet, here you are defending said giant robot cartoon. It cuts both ways, mate. Besides, here we both are having signed up to an online forum which is all but dedicated to Mecha, and you wonder why I take Mecha seriously. Got a mirror?

As an aside, you called me a fanboy, but a fanboy of what? I am not a Zeta fanboy; I'm anything but. You might want to use another belittling term to, well, belittle me with, since it would appear that that one is such a poor fit.
a real robot fanboy. Don't start shooting off because he called you a fanboy of soemthing when you're ranting and raving about realism in mecha shows and showing all the symtoms of a fanboy. it would be like showing up to a convention cosplaying as naurto and trying to make people believe you have no idea who the orange jump-suited "ninja" is.
And look, if you cannot see how the manifestation of the spirits of dead people into a powerful force is not even remotely allowable by the laws of physics (and therefore completely precludes a show from ever being called "realistic"); and if you cannot see how messing with a show by adding such Deus Ex Machina devices is not only bad storytelling but also wrecks suspension of disbelief and creates giant plot holes, (takes deep breath) then why are we even arguing? Our views are incompatible, therefore there's no point.
kinda like a rhino and an elephant? but on a more serious note; I actually agree with you the overtly super robot moments of the shows (Zeta versus The O, Nu versus giant rock) are a bit of a slap in the face of the realism of the show, but it could be worse. imagine if they didn't even try to give a reason for what happens. Zeta IMO has never really held much of a strong sense of story characters randomly disappear for long stretches of episodes and add in some random cameos for the hell of it and the final segment of the series seemed extremely rushed like they woke up and realized they only had a few more episodes left to tell the story.
Crash's Mecha Design Works
Crash's Mecha Based RPG
-----------------//-----------
ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
CrashLegacy14 wrote: my immortal enemy: Perspective.

User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:58 pm

So, Izayuukan, you're willing to accept giant robots that weigh nearly a hundred tons and stand about twenty-ish meters tall and can move as gracefully and quickly as any well-trained human (or, for that matter, move at all), without breaking apart in midair, without tipping over, without overheating and melting the pilot to death; you're willing to accept a magical do-all particle that conveniently happens to set combat tactics back to those of WWII; but once they get to the biosensor and the dead people, it's "unforgivable," it's "bad storytelling." Everything else, the wacky particles and giant robots, can be forgiven...but not the biosensor.

Mm-hmm.

Hate to break it to ya, but if any violation of the laws of physics at all precludes a show from being "realistic" in your book, then your book ain't gonna have any "real robots" in it. 'cuz, see, giant robots? They violate the laws of physics. They are walking violations of the laws of physics. That they can walk at all is, in fact, a violation of the laws of physics.

(Man, I read an awesome article on how giant robots would be physically unable to move and would wind up killing their pilots, but I can't remember what it was called. Anyone wanna help me out here? I'll give you a cookie!)

And lest I forget...
Besides, here we both are having signed up to an online forum which is all but dedicated to Mecha, and you wonder why I take Mecha seriously.
There's a difference between taking mecha anime seriously and taking it too seriously.

I suppose this bears mentioning for everybody, now that I think about it. I know that the rule here is that you aren't to just cut discussions off with "plot armor" or "it's what the writers wanted to do" or whatever, specifically when you're trying to talk about mecha and technology depicted in these shows. That rule still holds. But if "it's just plot armor" is one extreme of the spectrum, Izayuukan here represents the other extreme, the extreme that takes it too seriously and demands nothing but "realism" and then throws a tantrum when someone points out that it is just a TV show and the dissonance sets in and then RAWWWWWR.

At some point you have to realize that you are just talking about a TV show. That's an unacceptable view for a scientist to take, but we're not talking about science here, we're talking about a TV show--made by humans, who are known to cut corners, to leave things out when they don't care or don't know, to ask you to suspend your disbelief. If you come to a point where you can find no explanation within the show or within real-world science for something, then you'd do well enough to just chalk it up to the writer's license.

Otherwise you throw tantrums and find yourself in a knot that makes absolutely no sense--like, say, just by way of example, suspending your disbelief of wacky magic particle-powered giant robots, but then claiming "unforgivable!" on the giant robot getting power from dead people.

Perspective. It's great.

User avatar
crashlegacy14
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:38 am
Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by crashlegacy14 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:35 pm

ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
:lol: I'm so going to tote that quote around in my sig Shadow. I'm sure as a fellow artist you can understand the irony of it.
Crash's Mecha Design Works
Crash's Mecha Based RPG
-----------------//-----------
ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
CrashLegacy14 wrote: my immortal enemy: Perspective.

User avatar
santadi0
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:25 am
Location: Cryosleep in Cryotube 2... Oh, wait, the Covenant are here?!?!

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by santadi0 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:17 am

everyone's changing the topic...


By the way, since I was implying Halo technology for Gundam use, how about Antrophomorphic Advanced AI? I'm not taking away anything from the Haros, but they're limited in their functions as AI. Halo AI's, however, can guide ships and its weapons. Besides, the repetitive speech of the Haros can sometimes get boring or annoying (though I admit that without such, Gundam wouldn't be half as good as it is now).
"Don Corleone--I am going to leave you now--- because I know-- that you are busy"

User avatar
blind_dead_mcjones
Posts: 1036
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:19 am
Location: South Australia

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by blind_dead_mcjones » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:01 am

does it have to be halo technology?

and how do you know haros are limited in their AI? lockons haro for example was able to control the entire mobile suit and its shield functions at the same time if need be.
Flag Fighter for life!

User avatar
ZeroBusterXX
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:40 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by ZeroBusterXX » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:19 pm

santadi0 wrote:everyone's changing the topic...


By the way, since I was implying Halo technology for Gundam use, how about Antrophomorphic Advanced AI? I'm not taking away anything from the Haros, but they're limited in their functions as AI. Halo AI's, however, can guide ships and its weapons. Besides, the repetitive speech of the Haros can sometimes get boring or annoying (though I admit that without such, Gundam wouldn't be half as good as it is now).
*Looks at Hanayo from 00F*
Spoiler
Show
*Also looks at supposedly Tieria in the movie

User avatar
Kuruni
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:43 am
Location: sitting next to a yandere loli
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Kuruni » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:46 pm

Yes, Hanayo and ALICE are two examples (though latter doesn't talk to pilot).

Plus Hanayo got special bonus for being moe character :mrgreen: .
My girlfriend was a loli.

User avatar
santadi0
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:25 am
Location: Cryosleep in Cryotube 2... Oh, wait, the Covenant are here?!?!

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by santadi0 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:18 pm

blind_dead_mcjones wrote:does it have to be halo technology?

and how do you know haros are limited in their AI? lockons haro for example was able to control the entire mobile suit and its shield functions at the same time if need be.
Sure, Haros can do that. I acknowledge that. Halo's AI's, however, can control the defense of a starship, Translate alien languages and hack their "internet", and basically does majority of what Sumeragi does on board (except drinking liquor, of course).

Halo technology in general has more or less advanced "soft hardware" compared to Gundam. The AI's, Slipspace technology, Cryosleep technology, Holotanks, etc. Gundam, on the other hand, has advanced "hard hardware"compared to Halo. Mobile Suits, Gundams, GN Technology (for 00), Warships with positron cannons (SEED) (the Covenant would never stood a chance against these ships), Advanced weapons, etc.

Mixing both... you'll get one hell of a setup.
"Don Corleone--I am going to leave you now--- because I know-- that you are busy"

User avatar
ZeroBusterXX
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:40 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by ZeroBusterXX » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:16 pm

santadi0 wrote:
blind_dead_mcjones wrote:does it have to be halo technology?

and how do you know haros are limited in their AI? lockons haro for example was able to control the entire mobile suit and its shield functions at the same time if need be.
Sure, Haros can do that. I acknowledge that. Halo's AI's, however, can control the defense of a starship, Translate alien languages and hack their "internet", and basically does majority of what Sumeragi does on board (except drinking liquor, of course).

Halo technology in general has more or less advanced "soft hardware" compared to Gundam. The AI's, Slipspace technology, Cryosleep technology, Holotanks, etc. Gundam, on the other hand, has advanced "hard hardware"compared to Halo. Mobile Suits, Gundams, GN Technology (for 00), Warships with positron cannons (SEED) (the Covenant would never stood a chance against these ships), Advanced weapons, etc.

Mixing both... you'll get one hell of a setup.
You know that Halo wasn't the first scifi property to use AI a whole lot, right?

User avatar
Kuruni
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:43 am
Location: sitting next to a yandere loli
Contact:

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by Kuruni » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:18 pm

Ah...somehow I forgot Omoikane AI from Nadesico series, which control everything on ship, and also hack Martian Successor network (and it like super robot anime to boost).

And the ship armed with gravity blast cannon (as well as phase transition cannon of Nadesico Y)...so it fit santadi0's bill perfectly.
My girlfriend was a loli.

User avatar
santadi0
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:25 am
Location: Cryosleep in Cryotube 2... Oh, wait, the Covenant are here?!?!

Re: just thinking aloud: plasma technology, planets, and a ring

Post by santadi0 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:22 am

I nkow it's not the first. ^ ^ but then Gundam doesn't have such AI. I figured they'd be (very) useful in future series.
"Don Corleone--I am going to leave you now--- because I know-- that you are busy"

Locked