A Mobile Suit design question or 2 to throw out at you guys

[Mu La Flaga]

Ok so this is something I remember bringing up with a friend of mine once.
Well this thought crossed my mind again after watching MSG in part recently.

The first thing I wanted to ask is, what made Lunar Titanium the RX-78-2 was built from so very resistant to bullets and missiles ect?
When beam weaponary and all that could damage it far easier.

And this leads in to more the main question and is kind of Zeta related.
The Gundam Mark 2/RX-178 was the first to be built with a movable frame concept and all that.
If Lunar Titanium proved to be pretty good defensive wise and the idea was to have less armor in some areas, why not use this material for the unit's durability instead of having the Mark 2 being built out of standard Titanium alloy?
(I assume maybe unless there is a weight difference between the 2)

Anyway it's just something I've been curious on and thought I would see what the tech heads in here reckoned
Thanks in advance.

[Hyakushiki]

Luna Titanium is manufactured in space where materials can be made stronger and lighter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_manufacturing Beam weapons hit with more penetrative force than kinetic weapons since more of the beam's energy is concentrated on a single point. Beam weapons exceed Luna Titanium's impact tolerance losing it's effectiveness as an armor material. Making armor to stop beam weapons would make Mobile Suits heavier and bulkier hence too slow to be effective therefore they made then lighter, faster, and more agile to dodge enemy fire. From what I recall the Mk II's armor materials were no different from the RX-78, regardless armor durability seemed a secondary concern to improved speed and mobility.

[Wingnut]

From what I recall the Mk II's armor materials were no different from the RX-78, regardless armor durability seemed a secondary concern to improved speed and mobility.

Gundamofficial and just about everywhere else would disagree with you. The Mk. II is listed as having titanium alloy ceramic composite for the armor materials. Presumably something that can and was created on Earth rather then the spaceborn Luna T.

[mcred23]

The first thing I wanted to ask is, what made Lunar Titanium the RX-78-2 was built from so very resistant to bullets and missiles ect?
When beam weaponary and all that could damage it far easier.

Luna Titanium is simply a very strong alloy that is more bulletproof (Or resistant, whatever the proper phrase should be) than other metals, which is why it's so effective against conventional weapons. However, the nature of beam weapons is that they'll burn through pretty much any armor almost instantly (Unless it's extremely thick, like on The O), so it is not that Luna Ti is unusually weak against beam weapons, but armor in general isn't effective against beam weapons, which is why you see the movement toward lighter, more agile MS as Hyakushiki mentioned.

If Lunar Titanium proved to be pretty good defensive wise and the idea was to have less armor in some areas, why not use this material for the unit's durability instead of having the Mark 2 being built out of standardm Titanium alloy?
(I assume maybe unless there is a weight difference between the 2)

Weight was probably a consideration. It's said that the difference between Luna Titanium (AKA Gundarium Alpha) and Gundarium Gamma is that the latter weighs less, so it is something that comes into play during this time frame. Cost might also be an issue, but I'm not sure it'd be a big one to the Titans...

However, the titanium ceramic composite armor used by the Mark II is somewhat hard to define how effective it really is. A number of mobile suits, including many mass production models use it, but the armor they have isn't shown to be as strong as the Mark II, so one would imagine that the exact nature of the composite can be changed, with the Mark II's being stronger than those other MS and closer in strength to Luna Titanium...

[Geoxile]

IIRC I believe it is Char or Kamille that mentions that the Titans intended to replace the Mk. II's armor with gundarium after testing. But until then the testing phase would explain why they simply used Titanium instead of Gundarium (luna titanium). There simply wouldn't be a real need to pour money into manufacturing Gundarium for a testbed. Plus, beam weapons were becoming more common by the time of Gryps, meaning the main advantage of Gundarium was beginning to lose significance.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

As mentioned, Gundarium Gamma is a result of pretty much a different formula and/or processing done at Axis that allowed it to retain Alpha's defensive power while being less costly and weighing less (considering it becomes the standard MS armor from Zeta and onward after its full introduction when Alpha was clearly stated to be too costly for full mass production).

The other reason why it may have seemed so "weak" isn't just because of beam weapons becoming widespread, but the general concept of the movable frame in using minimal armor and only on more vital areas for greater speed and mobility to dodge rather than absorb damage. Very few MS ever take the heavy armor route after this besides The O and others. So while Gamma may still be durable, it's also thinner than previous MS, so it's more susceptible to damage from even heavier conventional weaponry like bazookas and such.

Last I can recall, the Mark II was really just being used to test the full body movable frame (as MS before with the Titans Test Team just had portions of their body here or there that all culminated with the Mark II) and was going to be phased out entirely after testing. As mentioned, using Gundarium Alpha for a mere testbed of a frame concept would be a bit of a waste. The Titans weren't really desperate to get the Mark IIs back because they really needed them, but really more to keep the AEUG from getting them and, subsequently, access to the movable frame which, as we see, greatly helped progress Project Z. Not like it took the Titans very long to start getting out their own MS after and getting access to Gundarium Gamma through Anaheim handing over the Marasai.

[Mu La Flaga]

The first thing I wanted to ask is, what made Lunar Titanium the RX-78-2 was built from so very resistant to bullets and missiles ect?
When beam weaponary and all that could damage it far easier.

Luna Titanium is simply a very strong alloy that is more bulletproof (Or resistant, whatever the proper phrase should be) than other metals, which is why it's so effective against conventional weapons. However, the nature of beam weapons is that they'll burn through pretty much any armor almost instantly (Unless it's extremely thick, like on The O), so it is not that Luna Ti is unusually weak against beam weapons, but armor in general isn't effective against beam weapons, which is why you see the movement toward lighter, more agile MS as Hyakushiki mentioned.

If Lunar Titanium proved to be pretty good defensive wise and the idea was to have less armor in some areas, why not use this material for the unit's durability instead of having the Mark 2 being built out of standardm Titanium alloy?
(I assume maybe unless there is a weight difference between the 2)

Weight was probably a consideration. It's said that the difference between Luna Titanium (AKA Gundarium Alpha) and Gundarium Gamma is that the latter weighs less, so it is something that comes into play during this time frame. Cost might also be an issue, but I'm not sure it'd be a big one to the Titans...

However, the titanium ceramic composite armor used by the Mark II is somewhat hard to define how effective it really is. A number of mobile suits, including many mass production models use it, but the armor they have isn't shown to be as strong as the Mark II, so one would imagine that the exact nature of the composite can be changed, with the Mark II's being stronger than those other MS and closer in strength to Luna Titanium...

Yeah, like for instance just reading one of the profiles.

Good old Ashimar Burran piloted, it's mostly built out of the same stuff as the Mark 2, yet it seems fairly sturdy.

And then we have like Galbaldy B built out of the same stuff.

I mean I suppose I just wondered about why they did that for a Gundam type machine.
I mean if you cover the lesser armored parts with a stronger then average metal if bullets or missiles hit you chances are it wont blow off an arm or a leg as what seemed to happen to the Mark 2 often if it was made more so in some areas out of Lunar Titanium.

But I kind of had the feeling that was why they went that way.
I mean the Zeta was built out of sterner stuff(and yes a Transformers the Movie reference )

[Zeonista]

Lunar Titanium is basically a Titanium-based alloy, found on the Moon in great amounts. It is derived from ilenite FeTiO3, refined into a metal alloy, and machined to high levels of strength using production methods not possible on Earth. Gundarium is the refined (and possibly patented ) version produced by Anaheim Electronics and others. (Hat tip to the High Frontier web site for their helpful information. )

As armor material, Lunar Titanium & Gundarium has great strength; the SR-71 Blackbird had a titanium skin, allowing it to endure high mach speeds without disintegrating or shaking itself apart, or cooking itself due to speed-induced friction. Now imagine that strength as several centimeters' thickness, and one can readily imagine the RX-78-2 shrugging off mere 120mm APEX rounds, or performing atmospheric re-entry with a shield and veil! The original MSG series made a point of indicating the Gundam was very difficult to damage with conventional weapons. Amuro owed his life to it several times!

The light weight made the armor strength to weight ratio very favorable, since one layer of lunar titanium could do a better job of protection than the thick, heavy chobham-style sandwich that was previously considered the appropriate standard of armor. The Abrams and Challenger tanks owe a lot of their high survival factor to this sort of armor, but its trade-off is massive weight, a lot of engine stress, and absurd fuel consumption. The Gundam could carry the UC-equivalent level of production, but move with more speed and agility than the lumbering Guntank and Guncannon.

Gundarium added on to the weight advantage; combined with a new generation of power plants, MS of 0087 could skip about the battlefield! Gundarium armor meant that big beam weapons quickly became the weapon of choice. In the high-speed MS combat of the Gryps era, it would be folly to pelt a fast-moving Gundarium-armored MS with shells and rocket warheads, hoping for a lucky disabling hit, when 1-2 hits with a 4 mw beam rifle would disable or destroy it. Even better would be a beam weapon with autofire capability, raising the chances of a hit. Now, Gundarium Gamma and other tweaks could increase the performance level of the armor, or one could just make the improved armor thicker, and laugh at the foe's frustration as even direct hits fizzled. I call this The O Principle of MS combat. The counterbalance was to obviously up the megawatt levels on the beam guns, in true gun versus armor mode again. The UC had other options, such as going for flank shots with bits/funnels, or just manning up and go to hand-to-hand with a beam saber.

[flamingtroll]

I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned much in the armor vs weapon discussion is the possible advancement solid projectile weapon themselves. They are still around even in late UC for some reason, so they might not be as useless as they are made to be. Crossbone vanguard has them on their lances. Shokew had an experimental gatling gun in an age of ubiquitous powerful beam weapon.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

1.) @Zeonista:

Lunar Titanium Alloy IS Gundarium Alloy (obviously in honor of the RX-78-2 Gundam); named so after the One Year War. It's just the Alpha version that was too expensive to allow full mass production. Gundarium Gamma is the more common one we know of from Zeta onwards and even that originated from Axis, IIRC, brought to the Earth Sphere by Char with the exact formula and/or processing unknown to us, but it obviously made it lighter, and easier and cheaper to produce without short-changing the defensive capability.




2.) I usually chalked conventional weapons still being heavily used because...

A.) Despite beam weapons becoming standard since Zeta, conventional weapons were still most likely infinitely cheaper to produce and maintain in extremely large numbers compared to beam weapons, especially more powerful/larger ones. And then there's some more specialized MS/equipment meant to be more loaded like the F90D Gundam F90 Destroid Type and such.

B.) With the down-scaling of Mobile Suits in the UC 100s, the armor was also made comparatively thinner, thus further compromising armor capabilities like the movable frame did a bit, also to allow a greater increase in speed and mobility. With the thinning of armor, that also means less powerful weaponry have a greater chance at damaging/penetrating it than before. Most likely meant to be buffered by extra things like the various neo/super/etc ceramic composites also mixed in with the Gundarium late UC.


Even today in modern times, we see how powerful smaller weapons can be against larger, more armored targets like miniguns on tanks and armored vehicles and such (can also depend on ammo type used).

Machine guns have been shown to go from simply larger bullets to more penetrating bullets by the end of the One Year War, with many later MS using the 90mm machine gun with higher velocity as opposed to the 100mm or 120mm ones.

[marasaidw]

Just a thought as to late UC conventional weapons such as shot lances. If you want
to fight inside a colony without destroying it conventional weapons are going to be the way to go, possibly less penetration against the walls and no beam/reactor explosion.

[Geoxile]

@ Zeonista, not to nitpick but most resources, apart from High Frontier apparently, list Gundarium as Luna Titanium, named after the original site of its creation, Luna II. As for ilmenite, I don't think any source actually ever explained if it's truly a titanium derivative or the relation is simply some sort of moniker.

As for the use of conventional weapons in the future. Other than the armor simply being thinned, isn't it also possible that conventional weaponry was also improved? IIRC during Victory the shrike team use a minigun to mow down a large section of forest with ease, something I doubt was possible during the OYW. If it were I doubt the jungles of Southeast Asia would be intact.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

At the very least, like with modern firearms, we'd probably see things like increased muzzle velocity (greater penetration at greater distances) and/or knock-down power, higher rates of fire, and so on which, coupled with thinner armor due to MS down-scaling, would equal much more effective weapons.

We also have the F90II-L F90II Long Range Type having the option of using shells as well as beams with its sniper rifle.

Despite beams being more powerful, they're also far more visible compared to bullets, making them easier to dodge if you're quick enough and see them coming.