Help with 0083 at the end (spoiler alert)

[acsam]

First off I just want to start off by saying Hi everyone its been MANY years since I was on here. I remember this site's forum was blue and with a few members at that time.

But I finally grew up, got a job, and got 0083 DVD set. (back then i only watched 0083 on adult swim)

I understand a lot of whats going on but I lost it at the very end. I want to know why most of the Feddies and Cima wanted the colony to drop to earth?

If I have to guess is it because the guys right before they became the Titans wanted to have a dictator control over the Colonies and Earth?

[Hyakushiki]

I watched 0083 recently, from what I saw, Cima sold out Delaz to the federation because she had been betrayed by Zeon during the war. If anything, she and her troops were trying to help stop the colony as a way to curry favor from their new allies. Jamitov and his supporters wanted to prevent the destruction of Jaburo, circumstances simply worked against them that didn't stop them using the incident to their favor either way.

[zerogradius]

The EF and Cima did not want the colony to hit the Earth. They wanted Stardust to occur up to the point that the colony was in Earth's orbit.

You see, Cima did not care about Gihren's ideals or about Zeon. She only cared about herself. When Delaz involved her in Operation Stardust, she took the info to Bask and Jamitov. She told them about it in exchange for her freedom to carry on her business as she pleased. Bask and Jamitov saw Stardust as a huge opportunity. They wanted to form the Titans, but lacked support for it from the EF. To show them how much of a threat the spacenoids and Zeon still were, they allowed Operation Stardust to go off without a hitch. Everything from the theft of the GP02A to the highjacking of the colonies was allowed by Bask and Ohm to further their ideals. They did not want the colony to actually hit the planet, however. That would be taking it too far. The mere threat of a colony drop was enough. This was why the Solar System II was placed in Earth's orbit to shoot it down. However, Cima failed to surpress Anaval Gato, who went on to damage the Solar System II, reducing its firepower, and rendering it unable to destroy the colony. The colony drop occurred but their goal of creating fear and unrest was successful. The Titans were born because of it.

[acsam]

thanks guys that makes sense now to bad most of the Gundam shows the Feddies are always the bad ones behind close doors.

[Dark Duel]

to bad most of the Gundam shows the Feddies are always the bad ones behind close doors.

I actually disagree with that statement; The typical Feddie depiction in most U.C. Gundam shows is as an entity that is apathetic, self-interested, and/or incompetent - but not evil.
In this respect, the Titans are the exception, not the norm.

Even in 0083, which is arguably one of the top three most pro-Zeon productions ever in the franchise, Most of the Feddies we meet are perfectly decent people. I can count the number of Feddie characters that could conceivably be described as - not evil, necessarily, but dirtbags anyway - on the fingers of one hand: Bask and Jamitov(who don't count as they had already been previously established as essentially complete monsters), Monsha, and that bird-brain who killed Lucette.

[AmuroNT1]

I can count the number of Feddie characters that could conceivably be described as - not evil, necessarily, but dirtbags anyway - on the fingers of one hand: Bask and Jamitov(who don't count as they had already been previously established as essentially complete monsters), Monsha, and that bird-brain who killed Lucette.

What about the guys from 08MST, whose only difference from Zapp Brannigan was the fact that they were better animated?

[acsam]

to bad most of the Gundam shows the Feddies are always the bad ones behind close doors.

I actually disagree with that statement; The typical Feddie depiction in most U.C. Gundam shows is as an entity that is apathetic, self-interested, and/or incompetent - but not evil.
In this respect, the Titans are the exception, not the norm.

Even in 0083, which is arguably one of the top three most pro-Zeon productions ever in the franchise, Most of the Feddies we meet are perfectly decent people. I can count the number of Feddie characters that could conceivably be described as - not evil, necessarily, but dirtbags anyway - on the fingers of one hand: Bask and Jamitov(who don't count as they had already been previously established as essentially complete monsters), Monsha, and that bird-brain who killed Lucette.

im talking about the high brass Feddies, seems like almost every single U.C. most of the high brass guys are just greedy.

[Gelgoog Jager]

to bad most of the Gundam shows the Feddies are always the bad ones behind close doors.

I actually disagree with that statement; The typical Feddie depiction in most U.C. Gundam shows is as an entity that is apathetic, self-interested, and/or incompetent - but not evil.
In this respect, the Titans are the exception, not the norm.

Even in 0083, which is arguably one of the top three most pro-Zeon productions ever in the franchise, Most of the Feddies we meet are perfectly decent people. I can count the number of Feddie characters that could conceivably be described as - not evil, necessarily, but dirtbags anyway - on the fingers of one hand: Bask and Jamitov(who don't count as they had already been previously established as essentially complete monsters), Monsha, and that bird-brain who killed Lucette.

I can think of a few more high-ranking federation officers who are evil, apathic or at elast very naive, but whose actiosn have terrible consequences:

08th team:
-Captain Isan Ryer who not only ordered to sink the Kerguelen which was a hosptial ship, but also ordered Karen and Terry to watch and shoot Shiro if he did anything suspicious.
-Although not quite evil, Commander Kojima does order no one to help Kiki's village, when Topp and her men are at it, under the argument that protecting the Guerillas is not their responsability.

0080:
-The commanding officer at the Federation's base at Libot. When the Kampfer is spotted and the Riah defense forces request the help of the Federation, he turns them down saying that it would be a good combat experience for their soldiers (Riah's). Originally he intended for the Gray Phantom MS to form a defensive line only on their base. Later when Bernie sorties in the Zaku, he orders Christina to fight him in flat ground where the Alex would have the advantage, despite the possible civilian casualties.
-Overall we can assume that whoever allowed the situation of using a neutral colony as a base, which leads to many civilian casualties, is certainly not the most honorable federation officer out there.

0083:
-The politicians and high ranking officers discussing the colony hijack at Jaburo (ep. 11). One even says that even if the colony falls on a lunar city, it is not of their concern and the rest seem to mainly be concentrating on politics rather than actually doing something.
-The Konpeitoh officer who brushes away the casualty report saying that if they still ahve at elast 60% of their forces they have cleary won the battle through numbers.
-Admiral Wyatt, the who wanted to conduct negotiations with Cima without indicating so to the Albion. I consider him indirectly responsable for South Burning's death.
-Even good old admiral Kowen, the only high ranking Federation officer who actually attempted to do something to stop the first phase of Operation Stardust, is evil in a way if we consider that he was the one behind the creation of the Physalis, which itself was a direct violation to the Antartic Treaty.

ZZ:
-When the Argama arrives at Dublin, the Federation officers consider the Argama a nuisance in their negotiations to hand over Side 3 to Haman. They go as far as calling bright a warmonger and the AEUG a bunch of mercenaries working for Anahiem Electronics who wish toi prolong the war. At least Judau manages to give him a good punch right in the face before being arrested.
-Just before the colony drop, Fa is trying to get tickets to get away form Dublin, but some Federation politicians cut in line saying they have a reservation and proceed to discuss how Karaba is a nuisance, about handing Side 3 to Haman and that at least they will now have fewer mouths to feed.
-The Federation officers who ordered their fleet to stand by until the civil war at Side 3 ended, which resulted in the destruction of an entire colony.

0093:
-Simply remember that we are talking about the Federation officers who sold Char an asteroid right after he had just dropped another one on their capital.

0123:
-The federation offcier interviewed who compares the Cosmo Babylonian conflict to fight between drunkards.

[mcred23]

-Even good old admiral Kowen, the only high ranking Federation officer who actually attempted to do something to stop the first phase of Operation Stardust, is evil in a way if we consider that he was the one behind the creation of the Physalis, which itself was a direct violation to the Antartic Treaty.

...Except the Antarctic Treaty became null and void at the end of the OYW, and since I don't think it's ever been made clear which elements of it carried over into the Granada peace accords, I don't think it's clear that the Physalis would be be violating that.

And just to throw in my two cents on the Federation thing, their higher command is generally shown to be corrupt or evil or however you want to phrase it. Those are the guys in 0083 and the folks who form the Titans and give Char Axis and all those highly questionable things we all know about, and the same pretty much goes to the civilian leaders of the Federation based on what little we see/hear of them. However, the regular Federal soldiers are generally shown to be, if not always the best trained or equipped, then certainly willing to fight for what appears to be right, even if their commanders don't want them too. These are the guys who choose to go help Londo Bell during CCA, who stick around and fight in a totally lost cause during F91, and break orders to fight the Zanscare a few times during Victory. There are certainly some bad people among them, cue the EFSF officer who wanted to use kids as human shields in F91, among others, but it's a common theme in Gundam that every side has both good and bad people fighting for it, so I don't think it's really fair to criticize the Federation for that more than one would any of the other factions...

...But now we're getting just a bit beyond 0083.

[TheGundamMKII]

This is one of the things I love about Gundam~

there is no real clear-cut line on who is 'Good' and 'Evil'. The 'Good Guys' aren't always good and the 'Bad Guys' aren't always bad.

... And I thought the Antartic Treaty still applied after the OYW. Side 3 reverts to being the Republic of Zeon, it doesn't lose it's autonomy entirely. As long as the two governments still exist, shouldn't the treaty still be valid?

I know they used nukes against Axis during the Second Neo Zeon War, but I thought those were exceptional circumstances, since they were only intended to change Axis' course/break up the asteroid.

[mcred23]

... And I thought the Antartic Treaty still applied after the OYW. Side 3 reverts to being the Republic of Zeon, it doesn't lose it's autonomy entirely. As long as the two governments still exist, shouldn't the treaty still be valid?

Nope. As the Gundam Official page notes...

When the Principality is dissolved at the end of the One Year War, the Antarctic Treaty becomes officially defunct. However, most of its provisions are enshrined as international law with the signing of the Granada peace accords.

[YazanGable]

To play the devil's advocate on a couple of these

-Although not quite evil, Commander Kojima does order no one to help Kiki's village, when Topp and her men are at it, under the argument that protecting the Guerillas is not their responsability.

He has a point. While they shared a common enemy, the EF wasn't obligated to protect the guerillas. Their dealings were almost exclusively with the 08th team and hadn't been approved by Kojima. To the base at large, they WEREN'T recognized allies. If anything, Shiro's giving them supplies for their assistance in the pillbox assault likely made them a detriment in high command's eyes.

-The commanding officer at the Federation's base at Libot. When the Kampfer is spotted and the Riah defense forces request the help of the Federation, he turns them down saying that it would be a good combat experience for their soldiers (Riah's). Originally he intended for the Gray Phantom MS to form a defensive line only on their base. Later when Bernie sorties in the Zaku, he orders Christina to fight him in flat ground where the Alex would have the advantage, despite the possible civilian casualties.

With regards to this first part, that wasn't just him figuring "Eh. Let them fix the problem." Remember, this was after the Riah government worked them over for the EF forces fighting Zeon within their airspace. The commander's actions there weren't just "Eh, they need the experience" as much as they were "They want us to stay out of it? Fine, let them fix this one themselves." A bit petty, but not as careless as you make it sound.

-Overall we can assume that whoever allowed the situation of using a neutral colony as a base, which leads to many civilian casualties, is certainly not the most honorable federation officer out there.

Honestly, this one's just as much on the Riah government's heads as it is the EF. They could have easily turned them away at any time. They let them in with open arms since they could see the war was turning in the EF's favor and they wanted to get in bed with the winners.
I almost wouldn't be surprised if someone in Side 6's government even offered the colony up in hopes of currying EF favor.

Any word in any of the supplemental materials about how this went down?

-Admiral Wyatt, the who wanted to conduct negotiations with Cima without indicating so to the Albion. I consider him indirectly responsable for South Burning's death.

Considering the nature of the game, both espionage and writing, this one actually makes sense.
From the meta sense, they naturally couldn't bring the Albion team in on things since it'd blow the reveal for the audience too soon.
From the in-universe sense, you're looking at a drop of some very confidential information being relayed by an insider who happens to be VERY close to the target you want taken out. I mean, comparatively, Cima was one of the highest ranked players in Delaz's circle next to Gato. If word that she was a double-agent got out, it would completely bungle everything she'd been arranging with the EF. To this end:
1) the information drop was supposed to be a private proceeding. The Albion team were NOT supposed to be there.
2) Under the circumstances, there was no way Wyatt could explain the situation without blowing it wide open. I mean really, an EF MS team blows in on a Zeon cruiser...and suddenly stops their attack and the cruiser gets away with no casualties? That's considerably harder to explain than the initially planned drop.

While Wyatt may have been a putz, Burning's death wasn't his fault. He never asked for assistance. No distress signal was sent. Burning saw something strange and he and his team charged on in. Burning's team broke up the drop prematurely. Burning intercepted the documents against orders. The documents were destroyed when Burning's suit went up. If anything, that failure was all on South.
Wyatt's big mistake wasn't until Operation Stardust itself began.

[domtropen]

If the wmd ban become international law then developing GP02 does violate the law instead, so whoever order its development is still in hot water.

Ryer also try to make MS go kaboom with mushroom cloud during the base attack. Fortunately we all know MS reactor won't blow up like what he imagine that easily.

Off topic but what does Kiki's people fight against before Zeon? Who are they exactly? Why they won't join the fed? Are they illegal people whose ancestor escape mass emigration?

[Black Knight]

Whether or not the GP-02A violated anything depends a lot on the exact wording of the clauses of the Antarctic & Granada treaties, which has never been released. It clearly isn't banned for governments to own nuclear weapons. What's most likely banned is the use of them (which Zeon repeatedly attempted to violate, always being stopped by the federation before the explosion, and for which fans often give them a free pass). In which case arming the GP-02A with a nuclear weapon is no more illegal than installing nuclear weapons on a modern ballistic missile submarine. Gato actually using it, however, would be extremely illegal, just as the Titans repeated use of poison gas was.

[JEFFPIATT]

The way the dialog is written the earth federation did not see that part of the treaty valid since the other government that signed it no longer existed. Delaz does not see the war as over so he announces the gundam GP02A as a violation but still deployed it to destroy the bulk of the new ships of the federation space fleet. The planning of the project seems to have been run by Kowen but he may not have written all 4 of the gundam specialization plans. The GP02 built was the A type but there are two other sub types to the GP02 witch is the "support" model of the 4 gundams.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I can't remember where, but I think I recall reading something stating that the GP02A's creation was in response to a rumor about Zeon remnants possessing their own nuclear weapons (or at least had their own plans for such things), so the GP02A was made as their own form of nuclear deterrent, making it pretty Cold War-like...

[domtropen]

Well Delaz is no saint but the fed is no saint either. From 3rd person point of view what Delaz and Gato do is no good, but what Ryer tried to do and Cowen's GP02A exposure is also no good, illegal or not. Developing wmd just because the other side is rumored to have it doesn't make the fed look better than Zeon in the eyes of lunarians and spacenoids [saying that simply mean they are ready to use it to retaliate if the other side use it or maybe using it preemtively... and what they are gonna do with it if the other side is not a threat anymore, and Titans prove it with the use of poison gas and colony laser against colonies and their civilians].

[zerogradius]

The Antarctic Treaty banned the use of nuclear weapons, not the construction of them. Both sides had nukes after the treaty was signed, so it had nothing to do with disarmament, only use. I would imagine that any treaty agreed upon thereafter would have done the same. The EF did nothing wrong by arming the GP02A with a nuke, and as far as we know, there were no plans to use it. Delaz, however, stole the GP02A for the sole purpose of using that nuke to kill EF soldiers and damage their fleet. They are the ones at fault, not the EF.

[domtropen]

I doubt spacenoids in general would be happy to learn that the fed has developed nuke-equipped MS in the era when people died en massed [spacenoids on neither fed nor Zeon's side included] just a few years ago due to the use of nuke and other wmds. The fed can broadcast to the whole space that they don't break any treaty all they want, but the damage to the spacenoids' mind is done.

[Black Knight]

I doubt spacenoids in general would be happy to learn that the fed has developed nuke-equipped MS in the era when people died en massed [spacenoids on neither fed nor Zeon's side included] just a few years ago due to the use of nuke and other wmds. The fed can broadcast to the whole space that they don't break any treaty all they want, but the damage to the spacenoids' mind is done.

I don't know, the Federation is shown to be a lot more limited in its use of nuclear weapons than Zeon is, since Zeon destroyed three entire Sides while the Federation helped Zeon destroy a fourth. And who kept trying to use nukes in the OYW? Oh, yes, Zeon.

Personally, were I a spacenoid, I'd be much more concerned in 0083 to learn that a rabid group of Zeon diehards had stolen a nuke than to learn that the Federation still had nukes of its own. The Zeon zealots have a much lower reputation for ethical use of superweapons.