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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:08 pm 
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Zeino wrote:
I'd just like to make clear that I was not try to make this a bashing thread. Seed was the series that got me in Gundam in the first place. I was just wondering why it so much flak from the fandom here. Also I have another question that in relation. Is it true that back in the early 2000s, the fandom was fiercely split between the fans of G Gundam and Gundam Wing and the older fans of UC?


In the US, there was definitely a great rift between Wing (AC) fans and UC fans in the early 2000s. Wing affected the expectations of what a Gundam series should have in it/look like for newcomers, while UC stalwarts called Wing "UC cliff-notes." G-Gundam (FC) came along later in the US (about a year before SEED, I think), and really didn't cause much of an uproar in my experience (though I enjoyed it greatly). Over the years, these "camps" have simmered down a good deal, but there are still some who hold to one Gundam timeline and one Gundam timeline only (though probably not so much on this MAHQ site as compared to the internet at large. The "one timeline" phenomenon resurges every time a new timeline starts basically).

As for SEED and SEED Destiny: I originally was excited about SEED, but when I first watched it, it suffered from TV editing, the animation felt stilted, there was too many clip shows, and I found too much of it following 0079 far too closely (making it seem far from the largely fresh takes Wing and G were, or the unique spin the OVAs like 08th Team and 0080 had been). However, when it got to the Alaska Base arc, I found myself drawn in somewhat. In the end, for years, I became a hater on the series because (despite some points) it just didn't live up to the experiences I had had previously with Gundam, and yet there was a lot of people on the net singing its praises. Rewatching the series about a year ago, unedited, I felt better about the whole thing. The problems I noted are still there, but time has helped the series, as a lot of animation today is stilted, and SEED seems sometimes less so. Also, I realized that while the scripts do follow 0079 a lot, the presence of multiple Gundams and the different dynamics brought by Mu/Rau and the like give it some unique charm.

SEED Destiny, I actually think, has a more interesting setup than SEED with more factions and more gray areas when it starts. It begins by taking the best unique elements of SEED, and pushing them to the fore. The animation has also improved from SEED overall. However, Destiny is too inconsistent, repetitive, and too flippant with where it goes. It feels like the last quarter of the series is just thrown together, and only holds a vestige of the potential it started with. Even so, I do find some charm in Destiny. It's not total garbage, and I actually enjoyed it more watching it the first time than I did SEED--or at least it kept more of my attention. (The stuff prior to Junius 7 dropping is very tightly written, and there are some moments of genuinely good and frenetic action that are a lot of fun on their own).

We've forgotten Stargazer here: Too short, but some great stuff in there that shows potential for CE. Personally, though I was once a huge hater on CE, I would like to see one last CE title to round out the timeline given the way Destiny ended. At this time, while I'm not a huge fan of CE, I find parts of it enjoyable, and have certainly stopped hating it.

Because G'00 was brought up in this thread, I'm just going to note that I felt its animation was a big step up from SEED and Destiny (though not always in choreography), but like others have noted, I just didn't like the way the series went, particularly with Season 2. In the end, taken as a whole, I'm not sure its plotting was that much better than Destiny. I contend that 00 was at its best in S1: 1-16 & S1: 22-25. Overall, my appreciation has grown for all the things 00 got right, but it wasn't the mind-blowing experience that I had with Wing, 08th Team, 0080, and G-Gundam when they first aired.

Chris wrote:
vindKtiv wrote:
Seed failed hard not because it sucked, but because kids just didn't want anime anymore. You cannot blame CN or whatnot for giving kids what they want.


I can agree with some of what you're saying, but not this. CN and Bandai had a revenue sharing deal for Gundam toys. By the time SEED was about to air in the U.S., Bandai decided to stop selling Gundam toys in America. With no revenue incentive, CN did hardly any advertising for SEED, and halfway through the show's run they moved it to a late Friday night death slot. So no, it's not at all that kids didn't want anime, because other anime that aired at the time were popular, ie Inuyasha. It's that they didn't buy Gundam toys and thus give CN a reason to be enthusiastic about promoting the show. As to why Gundam toys stopped selling here, there's plenty of culprits that can be blamed, but that's for another thread.


You're both right in my opinion, but then there were some OTHER factors that really made it a perfect storm. As was noted earlier in this thread, CN did one heck of a job tastefully/carefully editing Gundam series prior to SEED and marketing them better than Bandai (so much so that Bandai used Toonami's ads on their DVDs at points). However, SEED's launch in the US corresponded not only with an inconsistent North American identity for Gundam, but with these three deathly trends.

1.) The NA anime market was starting to and was going to crash big with the fall of its major retailers.

2.) CN's Toonami had been stripped of its five-to-six day after-school schedule and was on its way out as CN policy changed to focus on Adult Swim, and with Adult Swim, the focus was quickly moving away from anime toward cheaper endeavors (the fact that THE BIG-O Season 3 was optioned prior to Season 2's airing but then passed on is proof of that).

3.) Censoring was becoming a big deal on TV due to current events, which made CN gun shy (literally), to the point where Toonami probably wasn't sure what would fly and what wouldn't in the current climate. Combine this with the loss of influence to Adult Swim, and Toonami had an identity crisis, causing confusion and inconsistency. (I remember IGPX The Series, Toonami's last gasp crown jewel, being taken off of Toonami allegedly due to the fact that it was attracting too old of crowds, and I remember that show having some swearing in it that usually would have only been shown on the "uncut" Midnight Run version of Toonami (which didn't exist at the time).

PS: For those who missed Toonami's heyday, check out their custom promos (nobody does it better, IMO):
Gundam Wing trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIa7bQfxiMQ
Gundam Wing daily intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51rOp1Ow-NY
Gundam 08th MS Team trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oajULdUM ... re=related
Mobile Suit Gundam 0079 trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c30IcxtrnU
G-Gundam trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRercuwU ... re=related

And really, despite Toonami being marginalized, they did give SEED a shot with this competent promo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToV3SqqD240

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:51 pm 
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I think the CE universe as a whole has a lot to offer. It was certainly the first Gundam universe I really got into (thanks to SEED), and I will admit modern animation was a big help. At the same time, the creative team behind SEED and Destiny took a good thing and drove it into the ground. Destiny started off great, but failed in its execution in a vast number of areas which have been explored in depth here on multiple occasions.

I think the CE universe leaves quite a bit open to explore if Bandai wishes to do so. AC seemed to be pretty much shut down by the end of Endless Waltz when the G-boys blow up their mobile suits and the whole world allegedly smokes a peace pipe. I saw Wing, but I didn't get the love some people did, but I think sometimes, dated animation has played a role in how positively I view a series. I may watch it again someday since I'm older and am appreciating things.

I never watched G-Gundam, so I can't comment there. I suspect the Gundam Fight thing was off the Gundam mold too much to keep it going, but I could be talking out of my ass. Either way, it didn't seem like Bandai gave a rip about expanding that universe.

For somewhat mysterious reasons, the Gundam X timeslot change happened. Thanks to assumptions it was a crappy Gundam series, that's hurt it. Too bad since it wasn't a horrid show by any means, but a bad reputation at a critical time buried this one.

Finally, the CC series ends on a happy note. As far as I know, there really didn't seem to be side stories coming around, so my feeling is that things will stay like that.

Outside the UC era, CE seems to have the most developed universe to work with, warts and all. I'm not sure if Bandai feels the same way, but they're also a business, like it or not. If their primary market has moved on or still wants a pop princess to lead the charge, well, Bandai will follow that. I would love to see something with the idea of Stargazer developed, but its hard to say.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Big B wrote:
I never watched G-Gundam, so I can't comment there. I suspect the Gundam Fight thing was off the Gundam mold too much to keep it going, but I could be talking out of my ass. Either way, it didn't seem like Bandai gave a rip about expanding that universe.


Funny thing about G Gundam, is that due to it's radical departure from the Gundam mold, everyone I know either loves it, or despises it, with no middleground. Usually there are at least a few people that hold an "Eh, it was okay, but not spectacular" attitude fo each series within the fanbase, but G Gundam seems to be the only one with such a black and white reception...

Just an observation.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:31 am 
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Sort of like Turn-A Gundam, if you think about it - fans are either turned off by the 'stache or bear with it and find out it's more than just pew pew lazors and giant robots slugging it out.

Okay, this might come out of left field, but why do Occidental Gundam fans prefer the more "grunt-focused" series like 08th, 0080 and 0083?

And regarding the Cosmic Era, if the suits at Bandai minimally interfere and hire someone with at least a modicum of professionalism, then there's still hope for the CE.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Nitramy wrote:
Okay, this might come out of left field, but why do Occidental Gundam fans prefer the more "grunt-focused" series like 08th, 0080 and 0083?

You sort of answered your own question. There's an appeal to watching normal people just trying to survive and do their job that's different from watching a Newtype super-ace singlehandedly win the entire war. The grunt-heavy series also tend to be the most real robot-ish -- rather than having absurdly powerful Gundams slaughtering grunts left and right, they're fighting on more or less equal terms with the enemy mecha. There's something to be said for a more local, personal focus as opposed to epic, world-changing stories.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Turn-A pulled off both local focus and world-changing story well enough, didn't it? (It also had the Turn-A as a glorified grunt for a good chunk of the story, too.)

Going back to the makers, this just means a series that has multiple demographic appeal can be done, if your director and writing staff can pull it off.

(G-Gundam AFAIK did this too, albeit in a more episodic sense.)

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Every Gundam series has an element of it. Wing had those brief bits where they put the main characters in Leos and stuff, G even managed to stuff in the Nobusshis fighting Death Army for a couple episodes, and there was a couple periods in 00 where the Gundams didn't laughably overpower their opposition.

It's not that the western fanbase has any particular love for this format compared to Japan-Gundam Wing is by far the most popular thing in America after all. It's that the hardcore Gundam fanbase enjoys these shows for their deep portrayal of the setting, extending it outwards from the main plot. Stargazer isn't really a grunt show by any stretch but it has the same appeal for SEED to me. Heck, the UC OVAs feature some of the strongest mobile weapons in early UC even.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Quote:
Sort of like Turn-A Gundam, if you think about it - fans are either turned off by the 'stache or bear with it and find out it's more than just pew pew lazors and giant robots slugging it out.

Amazingly I have never found one person that finds it over rated aside from myself. You'd think with a concept of having the four other timelines merged in one you'd get more than mostly UC with three G Gundam references and nothing Wing or X related. :?
Quote:
Okay, this might come out of left field, but why do Occidental Gundam fans prefer the more "grunt-focused" series like 08th, 0080 and 0083?

Most people like dramatic stuff and want a lot of it in a few episodes rather than small bits over the course of 50 episodes. That and everything pre War in The Pocket may come across as "dated" to the average anime fan.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Part of that is because they try to give a more realistic feel to the mecha.

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