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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:41 pm 
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To indulge in my twin joys of counterfactuals/alternate history and the Titans, I bring forth this musing session: what if the Titans had either retained Gryps, or had wresteled control of it away from the AUEG at the end of Zeta?

Now this even has some basis in the cannon; in the "next time in Zeta" episode prequel in one of the final episodes, it says something roughly along the lines of "but Scirocco's scornful smile of superiority has not faded", implying that the final outcome of the last battle could have gone either way with the Scirocco-led Titans victorious over the AEUG. And in the (non-cannon) PS2 game Zeta vs Gundam, if you complete the alternate "AEUG annihalated, Axis rises" routes it says that while the Titans crush the AEUG, they enter a rough stalemate with Axis (a rough parallel to the lead up to ZZ Gundam.


So what if the Titans retain/reclaim control of Gryps? What really happens next and later?

It could happen a number of ways; the Arghama crew doesn't prevent Jerid from toasting Haman and preventing further Axis interferance, Jerid doesn't die his pathetic death and delays Kamille long enough for Scirocco to retake Gryps/disable it for a Titan phyric victory, and so on. Just give the scenario you'd think of.


Though the Titans would definately be authoritarian, all hope wouldn't necessarily be lost if they won, especially the later the point of departure from the anime. As Scirocco took control, he was also bumping off the worst of the Titan leadership, the men like Bask and Jamitov who made it the racist genocidal organization it's known for.

But Scirocco wasn't exactly genocidal (he even said he sympathized with them in his first introduction), and most of the rank and file Titans we see aren't racist either, the ones that aren't killed off quickly. Even in the briefing room before Jerid leads the mission to gas a colony, an anonymous Titan pilot stands and says that most of them just want to end the war as quickly as possible, even if it would take measures Hitler would envy. Ruthless and heartless, but not necessarily Earthnoid supremacist.

So with the possibility of eventual reform in mind, what path might a victorious Titans take?

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:52 pm 
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The problem with that is, that the Titans don't really win, Scirocco wins, his agenda has very little to do with that of Titan's like Jamitov. I don't think many would take too well by being ruled over by a Jovian, especially if his power base is the Titans itself.

Then the AEUG being destroyed would be a major set back, but there is still Karaba, which while small, would grow. The AEUG is more than just a military group, it is an idealogy. As long as the Titans continue to be authroitive, they will keep fighting.

So, that said, I doubt Scirocco could ever win, as he has his own back to watch, the AEUG/Karaba or other resistance movements, and of course Haman's Neo Zeon, and lastly but not least, the Earth Federation in its entirety, who when Jamitov died, began backing Karaba.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:54 pm 
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If the Titans were to somehow retake Gryps II from the AEUG, they'd be in a situation little better than the AEUG was in at the start of ZZ. The forces they have, while probably larger than the AEUG survivors after the battle due to the slightly larger size of the Titans at the time, would still be outgunned by the Axis/Neo Zeon forces in Earth sphere at the time.

The only difference here is that the Federation government and the regular forces, whom, following Jamitov's death, started to support the AEUG, may be a third faction in this next conflict, as I'm not so sure they'd go right back to supporting the group that took them into a civil war and really screwed things up. We'd get a three sided take on ZZ; Axis doing it's thing, the AEUG/EFF attempting to rebuild their forces, and a slightly larger group of Titan survivors who probably won't join Neo Zeon as they did in the official series of events.

As for what the victorious Titans may do, well, they could try to do a lot of things. There war with the AEUG and Axis would continue on, they'd probably try to regain control of the Federation, but that wouldn't be easy since they'd be the enemies of the government now, the ones without major support. Sure, they'd have Gryps II, but we know how easy it can be attacked or put out of action or whatever, and the true Titan powerbase was wiped out.

Thinking about all of that, I think they're continued exsistance would only serve to hinder the AEUG/EFF's rebuilding efforts, and knowing Haman, she'd let those forces fight it out and further hurt each other before she'd come in with her hordes of high powered MS and walk all over them and gain control or do what it is she wanted.

Long story cut short, if the Titans took Gryps II back from the AEUG, it could very easily lead to an Axis/Neo Zeon victory in the war that followed. At least, that's my take on things...

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:48 pm 
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I think the AEUG remnants would go to AXIS's open arms as they do in the alternate routes of GvZ. As Haman says in that game "Char, we could've been great together" that coming true could mean hell in a handbasket for the Titans/EF.

Even say, the Titans do beat AXIS just as they are defeated in ZZ, it could prevent Chars Counterattack for many reasons: Char is killed in battle or the titans realize they need a man with the right peacetime ideals to help lead and use him in that way.

Any way, this is all my own logical fallacy because there are infinite possibilities

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:21 am 
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Not to mention, with Scirocco now in control, there's the possibility that there might be some infighting within the Titans themselves. During the Grypps War, Scirroco never had that many loyal and openly willing supporters outside of his own fleet. The Titans were already a huge mess after they lost support from the Federation, with some instances of disloyalty already happening here and there, so it's possible that the Titans might even openly faction off.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:56 am 
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J-Lead wrote:
Not to mention, with Scirocco now in control, there's the possibility that there might be some infighting within the Titans themselves. During the Grypps War, Scirroco never had that many loyal and openly willing supporters outside of his own fleet. The Titans were already a huge mess after they lost support from the Federation, with some instances of disloyalty already happening here and there, so it's possible that the Titans might even openly faction off.


That already happened, though. Remember when Scirroco's Titans attacked and destroyed Bask and his cyber-newtype corps when destroying the Titan's biggest ship? That would seem to imply that Scirroco already swept the Titan house of his enemies, so to speak.

And it's not even like Scirocco is without allies and support. His final fleet, (I heard that some source said it was nearly the entire Federal Space Fleet) is a clear mix of Titan and EF personel working together (federal forces are even the ones who man the Jupitris). And, like him or hate him, Jerid Messa was clearly a man on the rise through the Titans and one with a lot of authority, and he got the Bound Doc from somewhere for the last battle. So with a few key allies and his endless charisma, I don't think it's impossible that Scirocco would sell his force as the "new" Titans, one free of the older corrupt crowd and who will honestly try to emulate the high-sounding ideals Jamitov mouthed off to that the Ashimar pilot at Darkur was parroting.


But on another thought, I do feel it would be reasonable for the AEUG (and even Karabara, despite being more of a EF defector group) to be folded into Axis, and not just because of the game. I've been under the impression that most of the AEUG's real space forces were at the last battle of Gryps, same as the Titans. The remaining forces would likely be the older and less effective units, with no real leadership or ability to regain their former power. But if they join Axis, things would be a bit different. Not only would the Axis forces get a needed boost, but the AUEG would be able to be the local "voucher" needed to help get over the stigma of being, well, the Zeon return. In a time when the Titans can threaten to use the laser on any colony harboring the Axis fleet, even as a bluff, Axis is going to really need local support to have a chance.

But Karabara is a bit different. It was born from EF officers disgusted with the excesses of the Titans, right? They'd have no love for the Axis, and might a reformed Titans seem as the lesser of two evils? You could potentially see a split in the Earth-bound Karabara; one who believes the Titans are a cure worse than the disease and will seek to be Axis's earth advance forces, and those who believe that maybe the worst of the Titans has passed and that the return of the Zabis really is the bigger threat.

Either way, Scirroco and his charisma would play a big role in public perception of the "new" Titans.

But what exactly was his goal, in the end? I've never been clear on that, only remembering that he felt a woman would eventually rule.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Maybe I'm going against the tide here, but I don't think it's automatically true that Scirocco would be able to maintain control of the Titans, or that the AEUG would ally with Axis.

By the end of the series, it seems as if Jamitov's political influence is the only thing that prevents the Federation Forces from renouncing the Titans outright. Char's speech at Dakar doesn't produce any immediate change in Federation policy; in episode 39 Jamitov brags that he's taken steps to prevent the Federation Assembly from revoking the Titans' mandate, and in episode 46 Haman says she's heard rumors that the Federation Forces are on the verge of severing their ties with the Titans, which means that they haven't done so yet. In other words, the Titans retain their power over the Federation Forces up until Jamitov's death, and probably not a moment longer.

In this case, Bask and Scirocco are both fighting for control over what's essentially a group of outlaws. With no home base and no formal mandate from the Federation Forces, the only thing the Titans have going for them is sheer force, which is probably why they're so desperate to recapture the colony laser. Regardless of his personal charisma, Scirocco doesn't have any legitimacy with either the Federation government or the rest of the Titans, so even if he recaptures the colony laser his position seems incredibly tenuous. I figure the best option he has at that point is to team up with Haman, continuing the battlefield alliance formed in the last episode of the TV series, and go to war against the Federation itself.

As for the AEUG, I can't see them turning to Haman at this point. Just like Karaba, the AEUG is made up of Federation Forces personnel who have no affection whatsoever for the Principality of Zeon, and their previous cooperation with Haman was extremely grudging. Now that Haman's betrayed them outright, it seems more likely that they'd return to the bosom of the Federation Forces, especially if the Federation is now threatened by both the Axis fleet and the outlaw Titans. Even if the AEUG suffer a military defeat in the Gryps 2 battle, they've still achieved a political triumph over the Titans, and the Federation establishment has come around to their way of thinking. What reason would they have to fight the Federation now?

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:17 pm 
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Dean_the_Young wrote:
His final fleet, (I heard that some source said it was nearly the entire Federal Space Fleet) is a clear mix of Titan and EF personel working together (federal forces are even the ones who man the Jupitris).


No way. The fleet we see under the control of the Titans is little more than the surviving Titan forces (Mainly their Alexandria class ships), the Jupitris and little else. IIRC, they didn't have any, or very many, Salamis Kais with them which would signify regular EFSF units (Although I think they had a few Republic Of Zeon Musai Kais with their forces). In fact, the only time we see a regular EFSF ship is when one of their Salamis Kais is with the AEUG forces around Gryps II.

As for the whole idea of the AEUG and Karaba (Which are both made up largely of former EFF members), I can't see that happening. The AEUG never seemed to trust Haman or Axis, and they only worked with her because they were forced to. And lets not forget, she used their cooperation to steal Gryps II and Operation Malestrom took Gryps II away from Axis, not the Titans, so there is some pretty bad blood between the two groups.

Dean_the_Young wrote:
But Karabara is a bit different. It was born from EF officers disgusted with the excesses of the Titans, right?


Karaba and the AEUG were both formed by, and largely made up of, former members of the Federation forces, which in part explains why they use Federation gear and Federation-like things.

Dean_the_Young wrote:
They'd have no love for the Axis, and might a reformed Titans seem as the lesser of two evils? You could potentially see a split in the Earth-bound Karabara; one who believes the Titans are a cure worse than the disease and will seek to be Axis's earth advance forces, and those who believe that maybe the worst of the Titans has passed and that the return of the Zabis really is the bigger threat.


I'm not so sure that Karaba, being as small as it is, would split, or if that would really have much of an effect on things. However, given how they (And the AEUG) oppose the Axis forces so heavily in ZZ (They're basically the only ones to do so), it wouldn't suprise me if they (And the EFF) allowed some Titans back into the fold or simply joined with them (In an opposite to the way things really played out, with ex-Titans joining with the Neo Zeon forces to get back at the AEUG/EFF).

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:48 pm 
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toysdream wrote:
Maybe I'm going against the tide here, but I don't think it's automatically true that Scirocco would be able to maintain control of the Titans, or that the AEUG would ally with Axis.


Going against the current trend is half the fun of counterfactuals. Especially when you bring up good things to think about as you have.


Quote:
By the end of the series, it seems as if Jamitov's political influence is the only thing that prevents the Federation Forces from renouncing the Titans outright. Char's speech at Dakar doesn't produce any immediate change in Federation policy; in episode 39 Jamitov brags that he's taken steps to prevent the Federation Assembly from revoking the Titans' mandate, and in episode 46 Haman says she's heard rumors that the Federation Forces are on the verge of severing their ties with the Titans, which means that they haven't done so yet. In other words, the Titans retain their power over the Federation Forces up until Jamitov's death, and probably not a moment longer.

In this case, Bask and Scirocco are both fighting for control over what's essentially a group of outlaws. With no home base and no formal mandate from the Federation Forces, the only thing the Titans have going for them is sheer force, which is probably why they're so desperate to recapture the colony laser. Regardless of his personal charisma, Scirocco doesn't have any legitimacy with either the Federation government or the rest of the Titans, so even if he recaptures the colony laser his position seems incredibly tenuous. I figure the best option he has at that point is to team up with Haman, continuing the battlefield alliance formed in the last episode of the TV series, and go to war against the Federation itself.


Though I'd agree that Jamitov is the biggest element keeping the Titans "legit", there might be a few ways to work about that so Scirocco doesn't ignomiously fail.

First, with the rise of Axis the most legitimate purpose of the Titans, to fight Zeon remanents, rises. Especially with the fall of the largest part of the AEUG (most of the AEUG was at the final battle, right?), the Earth Federation is going to need someone to fight Zeon. And since Scirocco, a spacenoid himself, has had no reservation of using spacenoids. If Scirocco is perceived to be a leader of a "reformed" Titans, a group that not only is dedicated to fighting Zeon but no longer considers any non-Earthling a Zeon sympathizer, I'd bet that his force would be a very attractive alternative to fighting Axis without another significant fighting force.


Second, another option is to retain political legitimacy post-Jamitov. Depending on how you interpret it, it appears that Jerid was potentially being groomed by Jamitov as a political force during the time around the Gate of Zedan, when Jerid both accompanied and counseled Jamitov when dealing with Haman. Would it be such a stretch, then, for Scirocco to utilize Jerid as a political link to Jamitov's old supporters? Jerid himself isn't exactly a racist bigot (Lila smacked that out of him early on), and has always had plans beyond simple piloting.

Also, we can always add a change farther back in the anime to counter the loss of legitimacy. Dakar especially like a promising point to avoid losing the political support.

Two options seem to present themselves; not fighting over Dakar or successfully severing the land line cable. Not fighting would be unlike the Titans and Jerid, though political minded orders from up high could conceivably order Jerid to not enter Dakar airspace as easily as they ordered him to withdraw. This would prevent the impromptu segment of Char's speech, and could make it lack the power that the images of the Titans fighting over Dakar gave him. It could be powerful in the way the underground rumors of the 30 Bunch gassing were, but limited in scope.

Severing the land line seems more likely, especially if done early on in the fight. The speech could be circulated through underground newspapers, but it would hardly have the effect of a live televised event with the Titans overhead. Damage would still be done, but not on the scale the televised speech did to the Titan public relations. If you wanted, you could even site the failure of the speech as to a reason the final battle went for the Titans (no speech -> less support for AEUG -> AEUG not quite as strong in final battle, relies on gamble of using colony laser -> Scirocco disables laser while Jerid delays Kamille, more organized Titan force crushes majority of AEUG force).


Quote:
As for the AEUG, I can't see them turning to Haman at this point. Just like Karaba, the AEUG is made up of Federation Forces personnel who have no affection whatsoever for the Principality of Zeon, and their previous cooperation with Haman was extremely grudging. Now that Haman's betrayed them outright, it seems more likely that they'd return to the bosom of the Federation Forces, especially if the Federation is now threatened by both the Axis fleet and the outlaw Titans. Even if the AEUG suffer a military defeat in the Gryps 2 battle, they've still achieved a political triumph over the Titans, and the Federation establishment has come around to their way of thinking. What reason would they have to fight the Federation now?

-- Mark


I suppose I was mistaken, but I had been under the impression that the AEUG was a more spacenoid-heavy force (with ex-Zeon but non-Axis element support and a healthy presence of EF personel), while Karabara was almost solely EF men. My bad.

You do bring up a good point about the betrayal by Axis. I suppose the next events depend on how decisive a Titan victory is at Gryps 2, and how the Scirocco-led Titans manage the political scene. If the AEUG is decimated as a fighting force or a change in the events of Dakar, Scirocco has more room politically.

It's not even like Scirocco has to seize complete power after Gryps 2 or else ultimately fail. There is still the war against Axis to consider. Even if the Titans are in a somewhat weaker position after Gryps 2 than the video games suggest, they still have pleny of opportunities to gain influence and a final victory.[/i]

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:53 pm 
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Dean_the_Young wrote:
First, with the rise of Axis the most legitimate purpose of the Titans, to fight Zeon remanents, rises.

True, but it seems like the Titans long since put that idea aside, if they ever took it seriously in the first place. Since it was Scirocco who originally traveled to Axis to forge the alliance with Haman - something that the Zeta Gundam movies imply he did without Jamitov's prior approval - he's done more than anyone to undermine the Titans' anti-Zeon stance. After that, I don't think Scirocco would have much credibility as the leader of an anti-Zeon crusade. (Bask Om, on the other hand...)

Quote:
Second, another option is to retain political legitimacy post-Jamitov. Depending on how you interpret it, it appears that Jerid was potentially being groomed by Jamitov as a political force during the time around the Gate of Zedan, when Jerid both accompanied and counseled Jamitov when dealing with Haman. Would it be such a stretch, then, for Scirocco to utilize Jerid as a political link to Jamitov's old supporters?

Ooh, I like that idea! Certainly Jerid always did have an ambition to take command of the Titans, and with Bask Om out of the picture he really has as strong a claim as anyone. His relationship to Jamitov in the final episodes seems to be something like a bodyguard, but that still puts him in the inner circle, and he seems to have Bask's confidence as well. (According to Tomino's novels, Jerid ends up joining Bask's Newtype corps, which is why he appears in a Baund Doc during the final battle.) The question is, would he agree to work for Scirocco, or would he lead a traditionalist revolt against the usurper?

Quote:
Two options seem to present themselves; not fighting over Dakar or successfully severing the land line cable.

This one, ironically, is all Jerid's fault. Some of the Japanese publications have noted that the televised battle over Dakar did more to outrage public opinion than Char's speech itself.

Quote:
I suppose I was mistaken, but I had been under the impression that the AEUG was a more spacenoid-heavy force (with ex-Zeon but non-Axis element support and a healthy presence of EF personel), while Karabara was almost solely EF men.

The only known former Zeons in the AEUG ranks are Char, Apolly, and Roberto, who joined the AEUG after joining the Federation Forces under false names. Recent Gundam Evolve episodes indicate that the Zeon aces Shin Matsunaga and Johnny Ridden served alongside Amuro as Zeta Gundam test pilots, but Amuro and Matsunaga are stationed at a Karaba base, and Ridden and Matsunaga are probably working for Anaheim Electronics rather than Karaba itself.

Quote:
It's not even like Scirocco has to seize complete power after Gryps 2 or else ultimately fail. There is still the war against Axis to consider. Even if the Titans are in a somewhat weaker position after Gryps 2 than the video games suggest, they still have pleny of opportunities to gain influence and a final victory.

Yep. In this scenario, there are a lot of factions in the game, and a lot of possible alliances to consider. It's hard to predict what might happen, and it probably depends a lot on the personalities involved...

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:00 pm 
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I am guessing Ridden is unaware that Char killed his beloved At A Baoa Qu? That would be awkward if they ever met...

I never saw the episode (just played the game scenario in AEUG vs Titans). But what's so outrageous about the Titans trying to retake their capital city (at the time it was) from terrorists (As the AEUG had been labeled)? Did they open fire on the Assembly or something?


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:18 pm 
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Phantomexe87 wrote:
I am guessing Ridden is unaware that Char killed his beloved At A Baoa Qu? That would be awkward if they ever met...

The notion that Ridden was in love with Kycilia, and that he saw her ship destroyed, was invented by a manga artist and isn't part of his official history. So perhaps he wouldn't care at all. :-)

Quote:
I never saw the episode (just played the game scenario in AEUG vs Titans). But what's so outrageous about the Titans trying to retake their capital city (at the time it was) from terrorists (As the AEUG had been labeled)? Did they open fire on the Assembly or something?

Pretty much. Not only do the Titans bring the fighting into the city itself, but they display a reckless disregard for lives and property, while the AEUG do their best to protect the city from damage. The sight of a Titan pilot bailing out of his damaged mobile suit and leaving it to crash into Dakar, and the Zeta Gundam struggling to push it out of harm's way, served as a vivid demonstration of Char's claim that the AEUG were the real friends of the Earth.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:33 pm 
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toysdream wrote:
Phantomexe87 wrote:
I never saw the episode (just played the game scenario in AEUG vs Titans). But what's so outrageous about the Titans trying to retake their capital city (at the time it was) from terrorists (As the AEUG had been labeled)? Did they open fire on the Assembly or something?

Pretty much. Not only do the Titans bring the fighting into the city itself, but they display a reckless disregard for lives and property, while the AEUG do their best to protect the city from damage. The sight of a Titan pilot bailing out of his damaged mobile suit and leaving it to crash into Dakar, and the Zeta Gundam struggling to push it out of harm's way, served as a vivid demonstration of Char's claim that the AEUG were the real friends of the Earth.

-- Mark

From what I can recall, one of the big no-nos of the day was the fact that the Titans weren't supposed to enter Dakar in the first place. It was a protectorate of the Earth Federation, and even the Titans were supposed to require permission to enter. Jerid pursued, however, and the results we know.

However, I was also confused about why the Titans were vilified as they were. It wasn't just the Zeta that stopped an Ashimar from crashing; it was that Titan idealist who used his own Ashimar to slow it down that gave the Zeta time.

I'll have to watch that episode again, though. I've never figured out why Jerid and the Byalant couldn't have just flown over the land line, and either used a beam to severe it from the air or just flown down and used the beam sabre. Beams and sabres are all the Byalant is good for, after all.



But as for Jerid leading a Traditionalist counter-coup against Scirocco, I doubt it. Jerid was ruthless, but he was neither happily genocidal (Bask) or racist (Bask again). So long as Scirocco's agreement with Jerid included Jerid steadily growing more important, I'd think Jerid would follow that path of his ambition with Scirocco (who he already had formed a partnership with during the Operation Apollo arc). Now, this doesn't mean Jerid wouldn't eventually seize power for himself, but I doubt it would be on the behalf of traditionalists. If anything, he and Scirocco might arrange for him to betray the traditionalists at the most conveniant moment.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:36 pm 
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Ah thanks for clearing that up. Really? I always thought that was pretty much official, as Encounters in Space kind of hints at it when we see the two chatting, oh well.

I think the colonies in themselves would pose the biggest threat to the Titans cementing their hold over the Earth Sphere, as it seemed like most of them were openly (if very passively) aiding the AEUG by this point. The Titans don't really have much of a support base anywhere, except maybe that one funky Lunar city who allies with them in Sentinel (Ayers?). Even with Jamitov in charge, they seemed to barely have popular Federation support, so unless Scirocco had some ties elsewhere, he's going to end up like Haman. Earth (Side 3) telling him to go stuff it, his own Titan forces with Earthnoid Supremacy sentiment (an analog to Glemy) trying to get him, and the main problem, the AEUG and possibly Axis/Neo Zeon who want his head.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:37 am 
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Speaking of Jerid, he really does have the history to take up a power struggle with Scirocco. I mean at the earliest of the series he had a relationship with Bask who at the time was bascially at the top. He then gets sent off with Jamican another top ranking guy, and of course towards the end his with Bask and Jamitov so he could very well establish a claim after being around most of the Titans top brass.

Now would he rebel against Scirocco, I believe that he would. Remeber Mour, and how Scircco was always pulling his crap on her, not to mention Scirocco abandoned them after Operation Apollo. Factoring in all of that not to mention his dislike of Yazan, who was a Scirocco follwer; I doubt he would reamin with Scirocco.

The question is, would Scirocco suspect him, becasue we all know he thought very little of Him.

Should Scirocco team up with Haman, that wouldn't last too long either way. Both of them were too ambitious to remain as partners, and given their dislike of each other in the series I don't see them working things out.

Scirocco wouldn't have a definitve victory period. He lacks the politcal influence as Bask/Jamitov, and he seems to only have influence with the Titans that he works with. Now i wouldn't be suprised if he manipulated a woman into being his politcal puppet after all he did mention something about a woman being the leader.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:19 pm 
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Crusader wrote:
Speaking of Jerid, he really does have the history to take up a power struggle with Scirocco. I mean at the earliest of the series he had a relationship with Bask who at the time was basically at the top. He then gets sent off with Jamican another top ranking guy, and of course towards the end his with Bask and Jamitov so he could very well establish a claim after being around most of the Titans top brass.

Now would he rebel against Scirocco, I believe that he would. Remember Mour, and how Scircco was always pulling his crap on her, not to mention Scirocco abandoned them after Operation Apollo. Factoring in all of that not to mention his dislike of Yazan, who was a Scirocco follwer; I doubt he would remain with Scirocco.

I half agree, half don't. Jerid does have ties with a number of senior Titan personnel, but they didn't always work out well.

Bask, if I remember right, looked favorably at Jerid's fighting spirit, but he wasn't around Jerid for very long before he left the scene. While it appears it was he who gave Jerid the Bound Doc, we don't see much of Jerid in the final few episodes so we can't be sure of how they worked together.

Jamican, however, isn't a good match with Jerid anymore than he worked with Yazan. It was Jamican who signed Lila's death warrant by refusing Jerid's plea to launch, and Lila also told Jerid to not be like Jamican. Also add in the fact that Jamican looked down on Jerid as a Titan as far along as post-Operation Apollo, and Jamican could hardly be considered for Jerid's rise.

Jamitov and even Glady, however, both seemed to promote Jerid's career. Jerid's ties with them (especially Glady, who wouldn't die in a Titan victory at Gryps) could very well benefit him in the post-game.


However, Scirocco and Jerid have their own history to consider. Scirocco was the first to offer Jerid a command position that would boost his career, and made that semi-partnership with Jerid in which he said he'd take Jerid under his wing until Jerid gained experience (which one could argue did happen before Jerid and Mour were late and abandoned in Von Braun). Though Scirocco started his impression of Jerid due to Jamican's report on Jerid, he is surprised a number of times at when Jerid does something surprising and is more mature than Jamican suggested. And then there's the fact that Jerid ended up with the Scirocco-led Titans at the end.


If I had to make a guess, I'd bet that the Titans will have three major divisions following Gryps 2; the hardliner faction, Jerid's faction, and the Scirocco faction.

The hardliners would be the extreme right end of the Titans; the racists and bigots who made the Titans as bad as they were. In it would be people like Jamican, Bask, and Jamitov. However, while they are well entrenched in the Titan base, the loss of the most important hardliners during the series dooms this side to plotting a coup to seize total control of the Titans, probably hoping for Jerid's assistance.

The Scirocco faction would be the most moderate "new" Titans; a mix of liberal titans and spacenoids enthralled by Scirocco's charisma as Scirocco uses them for his own goals. Due to the end of the power struggle in Zeta they would be the largest part of the Titans, and likely the segment that receives EF backing. Looks to maintain control over the Titans and EF as a whole, but being the top dog has the most competitors.

And finally the Jerid faction. At least initially small, a composite group that includes the part of the Titans that followed Jamitov and the hierarchy, but don't fall into the hardliner camp. Mostly regular soldiers and pilots, more moderate officers like Glady who enjoy being Titans but aren't cluttered by racist baggage or enthralled with Scirocco. Initially the king maker group, who if on Scirocco's side would insure that the "new" Titans would be internally secure, but if allied with the hardliners would make for a new and heavy power struggle. Jerid could learn from Haman about the benefits of alliances, treachery, and conflict-deciding influence.



Quote:
The question is, would Scirocco suspect him, becasue we all know he thought very little of Him.


I've already given my opinion on both parts above, but I'd say that Scirocco would make an alliance with Jerid. As long as their interests run parallel, Jerid won't betray him. And in the end, Jerid is in it for the power while Scirocco is in it for the goal. Should Scirocco achieve his goal, I doubt he would fight too hard if Jerid took over, so long as Jerid doesn't endanger whatever Scirocco has achieved. Scirocco is a hermit, not a power monger. Why shouldn't he be content to watch the tides of history from afar, after he's accomplished his objective?

(What is his objective, though? Is it to make everyone new types? I've never been clear on it.)



Quote:
Should Scirocco team up with Haman, that wouldn't last too long either way. Both of them were too ambitious to remain as partners, and given their dislike of each other in the series I don't see them working things out.


Ultimately, I doubt Scirocco would attempt a real alliance with Haman. Now that the Titans are (temporarily) victorious, Scirocco needs an enemy to rally people behind as he sets forth to accomplish his goals. If he wants to sell himself and his Titans to the Earth Sphere, allying with Zeon isn't the way to go. However, if he decides that conquest is more important and sides with Axis, then he has to face problems from within the Titans and the rest of the EF.

Quote:
Scirocco wouldn't have a definitve victory period. He lacks the politcal influence as Bask/Jamitov, and he seems to only have influence with the Titans that he works with. Now i wouldn't be suprised if he manipulated a woman into being his politcal puppet after all he did mention something about a woman being the leader.


Scirocco's biggest handicap and biggest benefits may very well be that he is an outsider. He doesn't have ties of legitimacy from the previous Titan leadership, but at the same time he isn't encumbered by the past. He can sell himself as an outsider, a new beginning in an era of difficulty, to get support that someone tied to Jamitov and Bask would have a harder time getting.

And it's even possible that Scirocco could have his cake and eat it to, if he enlists Jerid from the very beginning. Jerid, who does have ties to the previous leaders of the Titans, can serve as a bridge to those elements (Titan supporters who distrust the outsider) who would otherwise oppose Scirocco. Jerid could be the keystone of a temporary coalition, if you will, that would last until Scirocco could build a more stable support base.[/i]

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:49 pm 
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As far as the relationship between Jerid and Scirocco, the animation doesn't give us much to go on. After Scirocco ditches Jerid on the moon, Captain Gady has him reinstated as part of the Alexandria crew. At this point both Gady and Jerid seem to share the same resentment of Scirocco, not to mention Scirocco's new favorite Yazan. After his adventures on Earth, Jerid then reappears as Jamitov's bodyguard and appears to spend the final episodes aboard the Dogosse Gier. While this establishes his closeness to Bask and Jamitov, it doesn't tell us anything about his feelings towards Scirocco.

Captain Gady, though, is another story. Although he initially dislikes Scirocco and Yazan, they seem to get on better in later episodes, and in episode 43 he and Yazan decide to abandon Bask's fleet altogether and join forces with Scirocco. (This is discussed in more detail in Tomino's novels.) These unlikely allies may be united by their ethical objections to Bask's tactics; Scirocco spoils the attempted colony drop on Granada, Yazan refuses to participate in a gas attack in episode 29, and Gady pretends that the Alexandria's engine problems prevent him from joining the gas attack in episode 42. You wouldn't think of Yazan as being particularly squeamish, but these three characters seem to share the same revulsion for Bask's dirty tricks.

So would Jerid fall in line behind his old comrade Gady? Hard to say. Jerid is still serving as Jamitov's bodyguard after Gady goes AWOL and joins forces with Scirocco, but once Jamitov and Bask are out of the picture, maybe he'd just go with the flow and join the winning team.


Personal loyalties are one thing, but there are also ideological issues to consider. Dean_the_Young wonders what Scirocco's agenda is, and I think there are a lot of misconceptions about Jamitov, too. Let's look at the goals of the major players.

Bask Om: Easy. A straight-up racist, Earth supremacist, and brute.

Jamitov Hymem: Almost the complete opposite of what you'd expect. In episode 21, Scirocco tells Jerid and Mouar that Jamitov is actually trying to provoke an all-out war in order to destroy Earth's economy and purge the planet of its corrupt elites. Crazy as this sounds, Tomino's novels tell us it's true. Jamitov actually hates Earthnoids and believes that humanity has leave the Earth before it's completely destroyed, just as the AEUG does. The Titans and their Earth-supremacist agenda are just a way to exploit Earthnoid bigotry and lure them to their own destruction.

The problem, though, is that once you create a racist private army and place it under the command of a thug like Bask Om, you can't control the outcome. In the Zeta movies, there are a couple of scenes where Jamitov complains about the destruction that Bask is creating in space, and it's clear that he isn't really in full control of his own army. No matter how progressive Jamitov's goals may be, the means he chooses are guaranteed to produce the opposite effect.

Paptimus Scirocco: In Tomino's novels, the conversation of episode 21 continues a little further. Having established that Jamitov, Scirocco, and the AEUG all share the same basic goal - to get humanity off the planet and complete the migration to space - Scirocco explains that the difference is what happens next. The AEUG want to restore "absolute democracy," Jamitov plans to use this crisis to impose a military dictatorship, and Scirocco prefers the enlightened leadership of the true genius. As his Ayn Rand-esque rants in the final episodes show, Scirocco believes that the masses only hold back the geniuses who really get things done, and it seems likely that he'd try to impose some kind of Newtype dictatorship.

Haman Karn: Like Jamitov, Haman doesn't really seem to believe in the ideals she supposedly represents. To her, Mineva is just a convenient figurehead to rally the support of Principality loyalists, and once her puppet Zabi princess is safely on the throne Haman will be able to build whatever kind of ideal society she likes. In the final episode of Zeta, she even tries to pitch Char on this idea, saying that if he joins her cause they'll have a blank check to reshape the world as they wish.

What's noteworthy here is that, with the possible exception of Bask Om, none of these people are interested in maintaining the status quo. Jamitov in particular wants to create a worldwide crisis, so that he can seize control. Insofar as Scirocco has similar goals, I don't think it would be in his interest to make nice with the Earth Federation, suppress the Axis forces, and earn his good citizenship badge. Since he wants to create a new world order, an alliance with Haman - no matter how unstable or dysfunctional - seems like his best bet to overthrow the established order and impose the tyranny of his genius.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:20 pm 
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I never got why Jamitov placed a genocidal nutjob like Bask in charge of the Titans in space. I mean, maybe if he was an exceptional commander of strategist, though from what I have seen in Zeta and 0083, he doesn't appear to be. Surely Jamitov had more sane, servile and capable commanders to choose from?


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:27 pm 
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Maybe it's because Bask wouldn't/doesn't complain about being ordered to commit mass murder and the other acts of villiany. The saner commanders may or may not have realized that going all-out in oppressing the colonies like Bask did would lead to things like the AEUG being formed.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:43 pm 
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toysdream wrote:
Insofar as Scirocco has similar goals, I don't think it would be in his interest to make nice with the Earth Federation, suppress the Axis forces, and earn his good citizenship badge. Since he wants to create a new world order, an alliance with Haman - no matter how unstable or dysfunctional - seems like his best bet to overthrow the established order and impose the tyranny of his genius.

-- Mark


It was always my impression that Scirocco wanted Haman to be part of his Newtype aristocracy. She's one of the few people he seems to respect, and he looks genuinely surprised when she talks about joining with Char. It's rather telling that he enters the theater with a pistol but doesn't draw it until after Haman has said her piece (and Kamille has started shooting), as if he didn't think he'd need it. After all, Haman had already disarmed Char.

Point being, I think Scirocco is ideologically inclined toward an alliance with Haman in itself, and not simply as a means to an end.

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