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who would win in a free-for-all?
Luke Skywalker (Star Wars) 30%  30%  [ 3 ]
Zeratul (Starcraft) 10%  10%  [ 1 ]
The Emperor (Warhammer 40,000) 60%  60%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 10
 
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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:23 am 
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There was a loooooong thread on WH40K Dawn of War: Dark Crusade forum in GameFAQs.

It's all about the Warhammer 40,000 universe against the Starcraft and Star Wars universe. The posts made clear that Warhammer 40,000 will defeat the other two universes even though it was marred by fanboyism on both sides. I also like Starcraft and Star Wars. But with all the arsenal in the Warhammer 40k universe the other two don't have a chance.

One argument was the Death Star. The Galactic Empire only had one at a time and Starcraft has nothing near it. Unlike in WH40k, the Imperium of Man has thousands of batteships that could carry out Exterminatus (the Inquisition order of annilihating a planet).

A funny argument was quantitative in question. If the Zerg are millions, one countered that the Imperial Guard are composed of billions.

My question now is, what other fantasy universe can stand up to the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:58 am 
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As Warhammer 40k is a video game and all comparasons will be made to that game, I am moving this thread to the gaming forum.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:58 am 
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AFAIK, on debates on spacebattles.com, it is not necessarily so that WH40k will beat SW easy. SW side has lots of superweapons that can kill WH40k ships or planets or a star easily. Galaxy Gun, Death Star, World Devastators, Centrepoint Station, Sun Crusher to name the few that I know *shrug*.

Where Exterminatus is concerned, it is just as similar as SW BDZ but from my perspective, at times WH40k goes for overkill for no apparent reason other than to look cool. If a planet is already glassed via orbital bombardment or cyclonic torpedo, why the hell would someone need to let loose a virus bomb on it anyway? Does it make sense? No. Does it look cool (to the fans at least)? Yes. Btw, AFAIK not even Exterminatus as yet equals Death Star style detonation of a planet (where fragments were calculated to be flung outwards at c-frac velocities). I may be wrong though.

The problem with WH40k is that it comes to the interpretation of game stats to a certain extent but the bulk of the canon as maintained by WH40k fans is in the novels or the various descriptions of the game manuals (codexes IIRC). Unlike most novels that I've read however (SF or fantasy), excerpts of WH40k novels posted in forums are literally strewn with hyperboles everywhere. Like so: fireballs or firestorms the size of continents? Sure. How big is the continent? Now that is up to the interpretation of fans. Notwithstanding the probability that such fireballs or firestorms could perhaps be the result of atmospheric distortion due to heat, literal interpretation and speculation by fans have resulted in the "continent" size to be as big as Australia and above.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:05 am 
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The question is sort of silly (no offense) because in his universe the emperor is a God. Where as the other characters are merely mortal or perhaps the equivalent of Demi Gods.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:58 pm 
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I hate these threads but sun crusher anyone? invulnerable ship that can only be destroyed by a black hole maw.

never played the whole warhammer franchise but I'm sure a I'd bet my money on star wars, it has a lot of hocky magic garbage, also if it really came down to do it, the vuusion-vong or whatever are called are apart of the star wars universe.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:02 am 
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Honestly, out of all the major science fiction universes out there (that I'm aware of, anyway), I think Paul Atreides or his son Leto Atreides II are the only people that could rival someone like the Emporer. Of course, I haven't read God Emperor of Dune yet so I'm not familiar with what the Dune universe is like during Leto's reign. Nor do I know much about the WH 40,000 universe aside from the information given by Dawn of War. But anyway, it'd be interesting to see the Imperial Guard take on the Sardaukar. I suppose one could also say Q from the Star Trek universe would be comparable to (if not outright surpass) the Emperor.

I really wouldn't consider Starcraft to be on the same level as the other universes mentioned, however. The problem is that it hasn't had much to expand upon. Even other RTS universes such as Total Annihilation, Dark Reign or Homeworld seem to outclass Starcraft in terms of scope (probably not depth). It's unfortunate there still isn't a sequel to continue the story though.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:31 am 
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Wiki entry on the GEoM of WH40K.

As for Paul & his son, nope. I don't think even they can't stand up against the GEoM. The most powerful feats I've heard of the GEoM is that he unleashed a psychic attack which is supposedly as powerful as a supernova against Horus during the last battle of Horus Heresy (not noted in wiki but so far all WH40K fans quote this info which is supposedly contained in one of the main game codex). What happened after that is contained in the "Present Day" section of the wiki article. Of course, 'supernova' could mean that it is really, really powerful (i.e. a hyperbole) but of course, some would say that that it was really supernova-like.

Even in his semi-dead state, the GEoM supposedly created a permanent Warp storm several light years across. He can be beaten of course but you need psychics of much higher power like Marvel/DC universe which has crazy reality-warpers, some anime/manga like Akira & perhaps some sci-fi out there.

Similarly, between the Imperial Guard vs Sardaukars, most would say that the IG would win. There is the issue of numbers, equipments, and the Guards (especially on Cadia) faces much, much more horrible opponents than those faced by Sardaukars or even the Sardaukars themselves. The info on the Cadia & the Guards can be found in wiki as well.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:20 am 
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The game of WH 40K gotten its fair share of upgrades in the history of mankind. My knowlegde is that of version 2, once they went for the realistic feel in version 3 I lost interest almost immediately.
The universe you see in Dawn of War is just a insignificant spec in the gargantuan mass that is the Imperium, if you read the Codex' and other articles you can see that. But anyhoo.

It must be noted in Blood Angel Chapter History (readable in the BA Codex) that during the final charge on the command ship of Horus something happened before the clash between Horus and the Emperor. Nowadays it looks to be retconned but back when I played, it was a fact.
The Primarch of the Blood Angels Legion, Lord Sanguinius, was the first to reach the bridge where Horus had taken position. Being not really a match against the ascended Demon-Primarch, Sanguinius fell and died the most horrible death at Horus' hands. But not before Sanguinius was able to pierce the Terminator-armor of the Chaos Lord. Without that hole in the armour it was said for the Emperor to be impossible to slay Horus.

But now it has become myth in that universe, perhaps intentionally by the Adeptus Ministorum to make the Emperor look even more powerful.
But in reality the Emperor of Mankind was almost toppled by the Demon-Primarch, if it wasn't for Sanguinius, meaning that the Chaos Gods would be even more powerful.

For the original question, 40K, Star Wars or Starcraft?
40K all the waythe Imperium of Man spands across the universe consisting of millions of inhabited planets. Each planet has its own Imperial Guard Regiment or Space Marine Chapter. Backed up by a space fleet that makes the naval review in 0083 look like a mosquito on the back of an elefant. They have the Grey Knights, the Inquisition, the Adeptus Sororitas and the Adeptus Assasinorum.
Starcraft would fall almost immediately, the two alien races there were already encountered in 40K as the Eldar and the Tyranids. And those normal humans are no match against the genetic supersoldiers in space marine armour.
Star Wars would fall directly if they're invaded in a peaceful time without any giant armies. They could resist a little in the time of the Galactic Empire or Kotor. Let's face it, the Jedi couldn't stop the Trade Federation droid army nor the clone troopers, do you think they have a chance againts space marines, terminators and the imperial guard?

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:10 am 
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There's new flavour text insinuating that the forces of Chaos know that if the Imperium stops sacrificing Pyschers to keep the Emperor alive when he dies and ultimately moves on and into the warp he would destroy them. All of the Primarchs are/were clones of the Emperor himself but they were somewhat tainted and imperfect. Among them all Horus was the strongest and also the only person to bear ALL the marks of chaos substantially increasing his power.

Wiki is as bad a source for 40k info as it is for Gundam. I wouldn't really take anything there seriously. Also Remember 40k is way more than just Dawn of War. There is a wealth of flavour text to be read in all the assorted codexs and rule books for the table top game not to mention the newer books lack the amount that was included in the previous rules version.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:51 pm 
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volrath77 wrote:
The most powerful feats I've heard of the GEoM is that he unleashed a psychic attack which is supposedly as powerful as a supernova against Horus during the last battle of Horus Heresy

From the sound of it, the Emperor is basically to western science fiction what the Ideon is to the mecha genre. I really don't think that there's any single being out there from science fiction works that could match him other than the said Q, perhaps. Honestly, I definitely didn't think a Jedi, no matter how powerful, would have came close to Paul or Leto - let alone someone like the Emperor who appears to be on an entirely different echelon.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:09 pm 
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lets try to get back to the question of what other fantasy universe could stand up or rival that of Warhammer 40,000 universe. i'm really curious of all the sci-fi universes out there, i cannot think of another that could match WH40k let alone the Imperium of Man or the other powers individually.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:23 pm 
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Jericho wrote:
40K all the waythe Imperium of Man spands across the universe consisting of millions of inhabited planets.

The whole universe? I thought the IOM is only within the Milky Way galaxy. IIRC, I've seen a map posted by a member on another forum which showed the whole length & breadth of the IOM and it is only the Milky Way, not the whole universe.
Genocide wrote:
From the sound of it, the Emperor is basically to western science fiction what the Ideon is to the mecha genre. I really don't think that there's any single being out there from science fiction works that could match him other than the said Q, perhaps. Honestly, I definitely didn't think a Jedi, no matter how powerful, would have came close to Paul or Leto - let alone someone like the Emperor who appears to be on an entirely different echelon.

Not really. Q is way over the GEoM, just like the psychics like the following which is essentially reality warpers like Onslaught, Franklin Richards, Akira, Tetsuo (which I was told reached Akira's level of power in the manga), etc. These people are capable of either altering reality at whim or creating universes outright.

A psychic attack of supernova-like intensity simple pales in comparison against...say Akira's recreation of the Big Bang and then shunting that baby universe (which will grow at its own rate) into its own location. It means ripping through branes which separates and contains alternate universes or actually creating a new one outright. This implies a certain degree of control over matter, energy, space, time and the laws of physics themselves.

EDIT: I forgot about the force chart. Grr...Image

Force chart taken from spacebattles.com. Not sure whether this is the most current one or not but yeah, there are lots of other powers that can take on the WH40K universe and win.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:25 pm 
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In response the superweaps part, didnt W40K have the blackstone fortresses ?

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:42 am 
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That force chart has Exo-Squad beating Gundam. That's just preposterous. I'd also say the Masters of Orion races are a wee bit too far up the chart, at least from what I've seen of MOO: 3. That being said, the rest of the chart looks fairly accurate, at least for the groups which I am familiar with.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:14 am 
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Exo-Squad beating Gundam> Maybe true, maybe not. As I remember it, I was not involved in that discussion (just didn't want to) but if you want to see the discussion which resulted in that force chart, click here. All 29 pages of it.


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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:05 am 
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volrath77 wrote:
A psychic attack of supernova-like intensity simple pales in comparison against...say Akira's recreation of the Big Bang and then shunting that baby universe (which will grow at its own rate) into its own location. It means ripping through branes which separates and contains alternate universes or actually creating a new one outright. This implies a certain degree of control over matter, energy, space, time and the laws of physics themselves.


The Emperor is capable of manipulating the energies of the warp itself. Technically he can warp reality itself. The only catch there is the warp is populated by daemons which can attack you in the process. Like I said before the Emperor is a living God, not a man or demi-god. There's an old school official diorama somewhere of him facing down Horus and he's crazy huge.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:52 am 
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Why not Gundam or Robotech i mean come on this IS a mecha site!


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:17 am 
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There is no force that can rival that of the Great Emperor of Mankind... well not really but, WH40k ftw. Although I don't think he can hold a candle against Suzumiya Haruhi >.<

Starcaraft doesn't stand a chance. Maybe SW could pose a challenge but I don't see it winning. It just doesn't have enough fireworks. And what's with the poll? Jedi against the GEoM? Psykers are enough.

Though if you want an WoMD, I'd recommend the Beast Planet. It's from some CG show that I forgot the name... Shadowrangers or something like that. It's a huge machine-planet that "swallows" other planets whole.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:39 pm 
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No. SW can beat WH40K. It'll be a fight no doubt but SW still wins. For one thing there's the various superweapons listed ranging from planet destroyers to system destroyers.

Secondly, there is the gross advantage provided by SW hyperspace compared to Warp travel used in WH40K. Warp travel is dangerous due to the presence of nasty, nasty things in the Warp and as I recall from discussions in other forums, unreliable to the point that travelling a few light years can take years due to Warp currents, eddies, etc. and there are accounts of ships lost (many I think) during Warp transit. OTOH, SW hyperspace is safe (assuming all coordinates are correct), highly reliable point-to-point transit, not to mention insanely fast. If Darth Maul can travel from Coruscant located at the Galactic Core to Tatooine located at the Outer Rim in the space of one day (estimate), that is way, way faster than WH40K can even conceive. SW galaxy is about 120,000 light years across. Thus, Coruscant (Core) to Tatooine (Outer Rim) should be around 60,000 light years apart. If my calculations are correct, that means SW hyperdrive is capable of 21.915 million c or around 0.69 ly per second.

With this gross advantage, entire strike force or fleets can hyper in, BDZ a planet, blitz a small fleet, etc. hyper out and strike another system before many of WH40K races can even respond. Out of the various races, I think the Eldar can match the SW verse technology in this aspect (not really sure on this) but they are the only race capable of doing so whereas the rest will be too slow to react. I mean if the IOM, Ork, etc. ships are still stuck in the Warp, what is the use of their weapons if they can't engage an enemy that can strike at will in this case and between these two universes, most engagements will be in space, I think.

And from other forums, it was mentioned that an ICS-era turbolaser battery has an effective engagement range of 10 light minutes against static targets. This could be planets, moons, etc. & since the GEoM is more or less stuck in the Golden Throne, he can't do anything really and I doubt that SW sensors wouldn't be able to calculate orbital trajectories of target planets or for SW side to just plain bombard the general area until something hits.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:08 pm 
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volrath77 wrote:

Secondly, there is the gross advantage provided by SW hyperspace compared to Warp travel used in WH40K. Warp travel is dangerous due to the presence of nasty, nasty things in the Warp and as I recall from discussions in other forums, unreliable to the point that travelling a few light years can take years due to Warp currents, eddies, etc. and there are accounts of ships lost (many I think) during Warp transit. OTOH, SW hyperspace is safe (assuming all coordinates are correct), highly reliable point-to-point transit, not to mention insanely fast. If Darth Maul can travel from Coruscant located at the Galactic Core to Tatooine located at the Outer Rim in the space of one day (estimate), that is way, way faster than WH40K can even conceive. SW galaxy is about 120,000 light years across. Thus, Coruscant (Core) to Tatooine (Outer Rim) should be around 60,000 light years apart. If my calculations are correct, that means SW hyperdrive is capable of 21.915 million c or around 0.69 ly per second.


Not to drag this off topic, but there doesn't really seem to be a consistent rate of travel in SW. I think there galaxy is 100, 000 light years in diameter. It took the the Millenium Falcon ten days to get from Coruscant to Dathomir. The only hyperspace speed I can recall is Mara Jade saying that a ship with a hyperdrive rating of 0.5 is going 127 light years per hour.

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