Real Robots or Super Robots?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Obviously, each side in every series had a whole mess of forces. The Gundams are never entirely on their own. But the point I'm trying to make is that Gundam are always the miraculous superpowered saviors that defeat the villains in the nick of time to turn the tide of battle and save the day once again. This is not unique to the CE timeline by any stretch of the imagination.

Besides, calling CE super robot because of powerful Gundams and SEED-moding pilots, while calling UC real robot despite Zeta Gundam powered-by-dead-people and Nu Gundam's psychoframe insanity is clearly playing favorites. So you don't like Seed or Destiny. That's fine, they're not my favorite either. But that doesn't make them any more or less super robot-ish than any of the other Gundam series out there.

I'll restate what I said before. The non-Gundam mobile suits in Gundam series are real robot. They're war machines and nothing more. The Gundams themselves, however, in the vast majority of cases, are very super robot styled. This is a holdover from Gundam's super robot roots -- you can't just up and invent an entirely new subgenre like that without showing some influence of everything else that was popular at the time.

[MrMarch]

Good points, but it's also important to recognize the part plot plays in any story. Obviously certain characters are required to survive and achieve victory by virtue of their necessity for the plot to function. Hero characters and their mecha are obviously going to find favor in such a formula. In that respect, it's often easy to call anything super given that level of power within a given story.

[SNT1]

OO...last I checked, OO's Gundams were defeated in the face of superior numbers of 4 VS 30 when their enemies caught up with their uber technology. What were the odds in GSD again? Who won at the end of GSD again?

Quite frankly, there's a misconception here. Super Robots do not necessarily mean plowing into the enemy forces with little effort. Because, uhh, Super Robot shows, most of them at least, tend to have equally strong rivals, more or less. SEED Destiny was bad writing.

If Destiny, Legend and Impulse actually put up a fight without actually changing anything else in the show, I bet more than half wouldn't easily dismiss GSD as hax hax super robot.

Besides, calling CE super robot because of powerful Gundams and SEED-moding pilots, while calling UC real robot despite Zeta Gundam powered-by-dead-people and Nu Gundam's psychoframe insanity is clearly playing favorites. So you don't like Seed or Destiny. That's fine, they're not my favorite either. But that doesn't make them any more or less super robot-ish than any of the other Gundam series out there.

Agreed on all points, but the 25-MS in 2-minutes seem to be stuck on people's heads, and seem to forget ghost summonings in other universes.

The SEED-bashing on this forum lately is almost on /m/-level that it's embarrassing, quite frankly.

[Mark064]

Plot is indeed a very important factor, certainly some elements are invoked by the plot either for the main character to survive or do something to "save the day". Hero characters and their mecha will basically always find some way to survive the encounters with the enemies wheter this is by sheer luck, a new plot element, the mecha's power, the pilot's skill, some outside source or a cominbation. Plot elements deserve special mention as the two most common times they appear are the middle and end.

But an important question here is how much power is too much power? Which reminds me of the ancient quote: "Never use a cannon to kill a fly." Of course there is one way around this, a massive swarm of flies. What am I getting at? If the mecha is so ridiculously overpowered against the enemy forces you need an accurate force against it or you get constant one sided battles which work the first few times but grows stale quickly. These are the swarm shows; Gunbuster and Ideon are two great examples of this. They can kill 100s or 1000s of enemies in a single episode and still be pushed back, barely make it through and above all struggle for victory. Other shows that do this to a lesser extent are the J9 shows (Braiger, Baxingar and Sasuraiger).

This brings us back to the Gundam example. There is no question that all Gundam have super robot elements. Of course not limited to Gundam,but basically all real robot shows. The degree varies though. UC Gundam lives on the level of other shows like Dougram, Dragonar, Layzner, Orguss and so on. SEED, Wing and to an extent 00 pass the tier of the real robot shows but are never quite able to reach the level of super robot. So what of them? They are the quasi-supers. Great armor, and great attack capabilities. If more based on a real robot idea they have great dodge too. Other examples are the above mentioned J9 shows and Acrobunch. If there is a clear cut only real or only super, they are broken into categories by looks. The only difference here is that for half the shows CE goes real then shifts the Gundams to quasi but the story remains real.

[Darkerangel]

0083: Stardust Memory seemed a tad Super-ish. RX-78GP03 Gundam "Dendrobium Orchis" was a one-man band. That thing was a tank.

[Gadget]

That was a prototype spammer. But ramming a Gelgoog with the mega beam cannon is not really super robotish. Beside Kuo did not shout 'MMEEEGAAA BEEEAAMM CAANNNOONN!!!'

Anyway, the Orchis is only one of the many MS. Most of the MS, including the 'stars' (GP01/Fb and GP02) are more grunt grunt suits.

[Darkerangel]

That was a prototype spammer. But ramming a Gelgoog with the mega beam cannon is not really super robotish. Beside Kuo did not shout 'MMEEEGAAA BEEEAAMM CAANNNOONN!!!'

Anyway, the Orchis is only one of the many MS. Most of the MS, including the 'stars' (GP01/Fb and GP02) are more grunt grunt suits.

With your idea I will agree that Kuo didn't go super by naming all his attacks or whatever, but then again not saying that MSZG is super robo by any means, But with your idea, what about Kamille in the Zeta Movie? I recall an attack named by Kamille called "Beam Confuse" in which he throws his beam saber and as it spun he fired his rife at it.

[Recon 5]

I'll say that most UC machines outside of ZZ fall squarely into the Real category. We have to keep in mind that most of the crazy supernatural hanky- panky came from super pilots rather than super robots. In fact, I believe (again with the exception of ZZ) that even legends like the Nu and Zeta would fare no better than a GM or Jegan in the hands of an Oldtype, while Amuro and Kamille would wreak holy havoc with mere Balls .

If any UC machines stray into Super territory (for the last time,ZZ excluded) it would be the gigantic stuff like the Psychos, the Azierus, the Neue Ziel and maybe that new one from Unicorn.

[Dark Duel]

That was a prototype spammer. But ramming a Gelgoog with the mega beam cannon is not really super robotish. Beside Kuo did not shout 'MMEEEGAAA BEEEAAMM CAANNNOONN!!!'

Not to nitpick, but it was the G-Tetra that got ram-blasted by the '03's mega beam cannon, not the Gelgoog.

Now, because I refuse to touch GS/D any more than I absolutely have to, I'm not going to bring that up.
BUT, while I do agree that it's pretty common in Gundam for the main character's mech to at one point or another be overwhelmingly more powerful than a grunt, that alone doesn't necessarily make it a Super Robot.
Show me a Gundam that can compete with the likes of Thrudgelmir, Cybuster or Granzon, and then maybe we can talk about a SR Gundam.

Even the G Gundam Gundams(Devil Gundam aside) were hybrid super/real, and those are the closest Gundam's ever come to SR-level mech (excluding Turn-A, which was only one mech in the series - 2 if you count Turn-X)

Having said that, it's unfair to say that UC Gundam is not without oddly SR-ish moments. Need I point out the Zeta Gundam(it's powered up by dead people), the ZZ Gundam(yep, it's also powered up by dead people), and the Nu Gundam(crazy psychic powers).
But again, those are isolated occurences limited to a single unit in each case. Not enough to slap the whole show into "Super". The other machines in the same series, with a few exceptions, don't stray nearly so far away from what could be considered "real robot".

[MrMarch]

We have to keep in mind that most of the crazy supernatural hanky- panky came from super pilots rather than super robots. In fact, I believe (again with the exception of ZZ) that even legends like the Nu and Zeta would fare no better than a GM or Jegan in the hands of an Oldtype, while Amuro and Kamille would wreak holy havoc with mere Balls .

That's another excellent point. Plenty of real robot shows also feature that kind of situation where its not so much the robot as it is the pilot. Macross also suffers the same thing, with Max, Milia and Roy instantly turning any Valkyire into a juggernaught. With considerations like plot and pilot it can be easy to overestimate the real capabilities and limitations of a real robot.

[Mark064]

It's important to note that super pilots are basically the invention of real robot shows as well. Super robot pilots are generally normal people without any kind of super powers or anything of the like that raises their own piloting skills. Chirico from Votoms is a great example of this, since while he pilots grunt mecha all the time (till the very end at least), he is basically a god who won't die.

Even the G Gundam Gundams(Devil Gundam aside) were hybrid super/real, and those are the closest Gundam's ever come to SR-level mech (excluding Turn-A, which was only one mech in the series - 2 if you count Turn-X)

I'm starting to think you play too much SRW games and think that is equal to the shows itself. That at a certain power level things are super regardless of anything else. That being said it's downright silly to try to call Turn A and Turn X anywhere near to being a super robot. Great technology yes but that's it. Not for one single moment in the entire series are they portrayed near any kind of super robot level at all. And do not even think of uttering the words "Moonlight Butterfly".

Having said that, it's unfair to say that UC Gundam is not without oddly SR-ish moments. Need I point out the Zeta Gundam(it's powered up by dead people), the ZZ Gundam(yep, it's also powered up by dead people), and the Nu Gundam(crazy psychic powers).

Except these aren't "oddly SR-ish moments", as it's really rare to see something like that occur in a super robot show. One example I can think of is Raideen and how it grew giant in the final battle. The rest of the time super robots are super robots. People seem to think because it's a super robot show that super robots can do anything and constantly do that. As we've talked about earlier these are plot events. In the overall scale they mean virtually nothing. If Zeta was using it's bio sensor all the time it'd be different.

[Vate]

You guys...

If there wasn't a pilot and/or a mobile suit who's power stood over the rest, it wouldn't be Gundam. Think about it.

Think more about it. Is there such thing as a Real Robot anime without such elements?

The Freedom was designed to take out multiple targets (even before the DRAGOONS) Wing 0's twin buster rifle specialized in destroying a single target. (But both suits could also do each other functions pretty well, I guess.) Keep in mind that they were both wiped out, Wing 0 by the 'grunts', even.

But I digress, Strike Freedom/Infinite Justice's performance was just out of place in a real robot setting. Maybe if they had equal opponents, we wouldn't be bashing them so much, like "the tank" Dendrobrium getting pwned by such. Personally, I wanted Shinn to have done better...

FTR, the "which is better, pilot or the suit" has been heavily explored in S Gundam.

This theme doesn't even seem to be that common in super robot shows. Of course the obvious ones are Combattler V, Votles V and Go Lion but really after that I draw a blank. So common isn't exactly the word I'd use for this. The only other 5 man robot team that comes to my mind off the top of my head is the team from Baxingar. Of course there are the more sentai teams in Chouja Reideen and Dagwon but even then they went the all male route. Of course Gundam has been going down the latter path since the AUs.

What about Voltron, the Voltes 5 copy?

That was a prototype spammer. But ramming a Gelgoog with the mega beam cannon is not really super robotish. Beside Kuo did not shout 'MMEEEGAAA BEEEAAMM CAANNNOONN!!!'

Anyway, the Orchis is only one of the many MS. Most of the MS, including the 'stars' (GP01/Fb and GP02) are more grunt grunt suits.

Considering what happened to Cima, that would be....I don't know, but THANKS you just made me lol and broked my Gundam depression there. Now I need something to get over the shock of Bernie vs. Chris...

[Kavik Ryx]

Go Lion is Voltron. Or more accurately Voltron is Go Lion.

[Wingnut]

The Freedom was designed to take out multiple targets (even before the DRAGOONS) Wing 0's twin buster rifle specialized in destroying a single target. (But both suits could also do each other functions pretty well, I guess.) Keep in mind that they were both wiped out, Wing 0 by the 'grunts', even.

The Freedom was a fluke of plot where Kira seemed to suddenly lose most of his skills for no reason other than it was time to get an MS upgrade.

And Wing Zero was never taken out by grunts. Not even close.
Altron and the fall into the ocean weakened the suit to the point where it couldn't fire the TBR at full power and still keep itself together. The final blow as it were was dealt by the firing of its own weapon.

[flamingtroll]

Except these aren't "oddly SR-ish moments", as it's really rare to see something like that occur in a super robot show. One example I can think of is Raideen and how it grew giant in the final battle. The rest of the time super robots are super robots. People seem to think because it's a super robot show that super robots can do anything and constantly do that. As we've talked about earlier these are plot events. In the overall scale they mean virtually nothing. If Zeta was using it's bio sensor all the time it'd be different.

I also like to point out that such psychic related power is actually quite common is Sci-Fi, especially those in the 60s that probably influenced Gundam. I think the key difference between Super and Real robot is that real robot usually would have a decent amount of attempts in rationalizing whatever plot device introduced and try to maintain some sort of consistency to the settings of the story. On the other hand, such things are not necessary in super robots. So Super->Real robot should really be a scale rather than two distinct entity and people draw their lines differently.
Like for example, Ideon is considered by some to be closer to Real robot that super robot despite its superrobot-esque powers. And here on the other hand we have people arguing how freedom with Kira in it is super-robot.

[Kavik Ryx]

For the record, super powered does not necessarily equal super robot. All the Strike Freedom is is a Gundam, making it powerful, with a **** load of weapons. It's comparable to taking an MA like the alpha Aziaru or the Raphlesia, and compacting into a Mobile Suit.

Personally, I find the Wing Zero and its TBR to be closer aligned with super robots. The sheer power to completely obliterate an entire colony in only a couple of shots. Not even the Requiem could do that much damage.

As for Ideon, I'm split on that one. It's Combattler V like combination and transformation give it super leanings. But its performance is closer to that of a 100 meter tall walking tank. If it weren't for its infinite energy, I'd align it much more with real robots.

[Dark Duel]

I'm starting to think you play too much SRW games and think that is equal to the shows itself.

Sorry, but you'd be wrong there. I don't play SRW at all.

[Wingnut]

I'm starting to think you play too much SRW games and think that is equal to the shows itself.

Sorry, but you'd be wrong there. I don't play SRW at all.

Neither do I, but the mentality is still there.

[Gadget]

A note of interest:

Height of RX78-2 - 18m.

Height of Mazinger Z - 18m.

No missile punch - check.
No rust hurricane - check.
No breast missile (Pleases no jokes about Aphrodite A's missiles) -check.
Main pilot is an immature jerk that needs to be slapped by the captain - check. (Have to put that one in.)

So size is not the main issue in real robots or super robots. It's the weapon system and the pilot's background.

The problem with MSG is that it's a transition from super robots into 'real' robots. It will have elements of both robots. And I recall Tomino wanted to do a story about war, not monster of the week. I don't really care if Gundams are super robots. And it does not matter if the hands of the RX78-2 could detached and becomes a missile, or do spinning drop kick. All I want is a GOOD story line.

BTY, I am SURPRISE that Wikki list Zoids and Superior Defender Gundam Force as 'real' robots. Oh well, that's wikki.

[Mark064]

Pilot background means nothing at all. There is no pattern that you can find in either real robot or super robot shows. Another thing is looks, generally you can tell a super robot from a real robot.

I think the key difference between Super and Real robot is that real robot usually would have a decent amount of attempts in rationalizing whatever plot device introduced and try to maintain some sort of consistency to the settings of the story. On the other hand, such things are not necessary in super robots.

Not really, super robots do a good job of rationalizing plot devices too, but of course like real robots not all are, at least not in the context of the show. For example the bio sensor is never once mentioned in the show, Zeta and ZZ just did it.

Like for example, Ideon is considered by some to be closer to Real robot that super robot despite its superrobot-esque powers.

I agree with this 100%. Ideon is definetly closer to being a real robot. The combination is definetly super robot based same with some of the attack robots, any mind wave attacks and what not. However we see no monsters of the week and the weapons until Ideon Gun and Ideon Sword are totally standard missiles and guns. Even with the introdution of them they aren't even really super robot based, they are just really strong real robot weapons. Ideon is probably the first hybrid robot.