Zaft Vs Civillians

[Windknight]

Ok, I'll be honest and say I haven't watched much of Seed or Destiny, so what I'm talking about is based largely on the synopses on MAHQ, and some discussions with friend who had watched it.

One thing that bothered me jumping from Seed to Destiny was that Yzak appears to had had no come-back for shooting down the shuttle full of civilians in episode 13. He committed essentially a war crime, but as far as I can tell received no punishment (and even got promoted over Dearka, as one friend told me).

Factor in to the Zaft mechs in Destiny's Orb Assault actually breaking in to civillian shelters and slaughtering people inside, I'm wondering if Zaft in general has disturbing ideas about Non Coordinator civillians.

[Areku]

The language Yzak uses when he shoots the shuttle shows he thinks it's full of Federation officers fleeing from the battle, and in actuality he had no way of knowing that shuttle was full of civilians. Yes, he knew that the Archangle was carrying civilians, but in the heat of battle he forgot about that, so his killing of civilians was accidental.

[RedBlitz]

I second that, Yzak may have been an ass back then. But he would never attack civillains just for the sake of doing it. Had he known it was innocent people.. he wouldnt of shot it odwn.

Also Yzak got promoted over Dearka because Dearka betrayed ZAFT by helping out the Archangel, he got a pardon from Chairman Dulindal but was demoted to a green uniform. But I think at the end of the special Edition he's wearing a black uniform... so it's all good.

[Thundermuffin]

I think it was stated somewhere...(someone help me out) that both Yzak and Dearka were put on trial for their respective crimes and Durandal defended them and got them pardoned.

[Kenji]

I don't think the question is "Is Yzak personally exonerated," I think he was asking why Yzak didn't get court-martialed. Basically, he's asking whether there's a ZAFT policy that looks the other way when Natural civilians are killed.

[Phantomexe87]

I think it's safe to say that a lot of people in ZAFT don't think too highly of Naturals (non-Coordinators), but they're still generally more humane than their Natural counterparts. Zala and his people had no problem with destroying all of Earth, even though millions of Naturals were allied with the PLANTs, like those in Oceania.

However, from a realistic point of view, not everyone is trialed for war crimes, even in real life, a lot of war criminals have gotten off the hook, and they did far worse things than Yzak, who to his defense, didn't know they were civilians. However, even if they were not civilians, shooting down an unarmed shuttle (even if it is filled with soldiers) is pretty despicable. I see it akin to destroying a life boat with enemy combatants today.

I'm also guessing that given all the war crimes going on, Yzak shooting down a Shuttle in an isolated event wasn't too big of a deal. And apparently Durandel got him off the hook.

[Phoenix012]

As the posters above already mentioned, Yzak's killing of civilians were unintentional and therefore did not constitute a war crime.

Was it bad form shooting a fleeing shuttle? yes definately, but the whole event was probably more or less overlooked anyways. The issue might have come up at one point but a lot of coordinators were bit lax in their rules of engagement and their enforcement of them because of the Bloody Valentine.

Yzak was promoted for his performance in the last few battles leading up the end of SEED. Dearka was reinstated as a normal soldier (green uniform) but regained his status over the course of GSD.

[Toxicity]

'But who can forget the Bloody Valentine Tragedy?'

You hear that said a lot during Seed, and Destiny as well I'm sure. Compared to the complete annihilation of a Plant filled with civilians, destroying a single shuttle wouldn't be seen as a very big deal in the eyes of the Council. At some point during Seed, someone says something to the point of "If Zaft had retaliated in full, there would be no Earth right now", so IMHO, tough toe nails EAF - Yzak is just returning the favor.

Also, one more thing: Is it ever mentioned why exactly Junius Seven got nuked? If so, where is it mentioned and how did the EAF justify doing it?

[Recon 5]

The nuking was the climax of an irrational anti- Coordinator jihad by the EF. Simple as that.

[Phantomexe87]

I believe the official EA Government stance is that Junius Seven deliberately self-destructed. Though I'm sure they dropped that stance after the end of the war.

[Zero Revenge]

I believe the official EA Government stance is that Junius Seven deliberately self-destructed. Though I'm sure they dropped that stance after the end of the war.

Yes, if I recall correctly some Blue Cosmos asinine fanatic snuck a Nuclear Missile onto a carrier (although to do that probably had help) and shot it from a Moebius and it hit Junius Seven.

I love how everyone is justifying all of the atrocities that ZAFT committed when Junius Seven was like what? A little more than 100,000 people? Millions of people died when ZAFT drops the N-Jammer Cancelers all over Earth. Two wrongs don't make a right. I will not disagree that the nuclear "accident" at Junius Seven was an accident, but after all of the harsh things ZAFT did, they deserved more. ZAFT did ignite the powder keg that was the war don't forget (The Bombing of the UN [all except the ZAFT representative] at Copernicus City{sp?}).

It's a shame Yzak and Dearka got in the way of Requiem. I find it tastefully ironic that 90% of the EAF's plans are halted by either the ZAFT Aces or Kira & Co, but whenever ZAFT has some devious plan, it gets to go off and do atleast some sort of series damage. (Destroy Gundam and Initial Requiem aside).

The EAF seriously got the short end of the stick as seen in both series. Who can honestly blame these Naturals who are only defending their planet from these hostile Coordinators. Granted, it's unfortunate that alot of the EAF Chain of Command is led by RETARDS, but what's happened cannot be undone.

PS: For a Blue and Pure World!

Seriously though, after the garbage that ZAFT put Earth through, i'm a tad more sympathetic with the Blue Cosmos movement. It is fully understandable why a majority of Naturals would feel the way they do.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

At some point during Seed, someone says something to the point of "If Zaft had retaliated in full, there would be no Earth right now", so IMHO, tough toe nails EAF - Yzak is just returning the favor.

Yeah but, as I recall that shuttle was full of mostly ORB refugees from Heliopolis.

[Phantomexe87]

I really don't see why anyone would bother with "Blue and Pure" and all that. In less than half a decade, Coordinators have nearly destroyed the Earth on two seperate occassions. First with Zala and his radical ZAFT, then again with the attempted drop of Junius Seven. Durandel gets some genocide points, but he apparently was content with just wipping out individual nations, rather than destroying the entire planet. That said, most people would rationally hate Coordinators, or at the very least PLANT, without Blue Cosmos or its seemingly nonsensical reasons for hating Coordinators.

[Antares]

Back to Yzak's case, I thought it was all too conveniently left out. And sure, he might not have known it was civvies, but as so many have pointed out, it was an unarmed shuttle fleeing a zone of battle. A pot shot because he couldn't hit the Strike. Court martial, but apparently in PLANT but with Durandal appearing for the defense (was he already a chairman then?). Oh yes. I like Yzak's character, but that point definitely got Yzak off the hook a bit quicker than his act would've justified. Oh well, as far as official CE narration goes, I suppose that's all water under the bridge now.

I would also think that having your planet nearly vaped twice makes many Naturals fearful (=responding with hostility) towards Coordinators. Naturally (har har) the same goes for Coordinators. Zala loyalists definitely were the most violent of that bunch that was given any screen time, and usually they were in quantity and quality overwhelmed by Blue Cosmos.

[Recon 5]

Actually, it was probably the EA that started everything in the first place. Glenn was from Earth after all. If they hadn't allowed such a controversial thing to occur right under their nose (if it wasn't all planned in the first place), there wouldn't even be Coordinators, and by extension there would be no war.

Also, its their fault for putting the Coordinators in space.

[Indicible]

Durandel gets some genocide points, but he apparently was content with just wipping out individual nations, rather than destroying the entire planet.

Wiping out? From what I remember of Destiny it only escalated to Requiem's use after Blue Cosmos nicely built it. Then Durandal simply said that whatever nation was not with ZAFT was against ZAFT. And planned for a special ORB barbecue. At that point, I agree he was genocidal (does the word even exist in English?).

I don't think Coordinators were set against Naturals, at least at the beginning: they were not numerous enough to really form a nation or a race, so they were just humans with a few extras.
However, Blue Cosmos attitude led to the emergence of Zala and his zealots.
Two bunches of sociopathic fools against each other. No wonder they nearly destroyed Earth.

Concerning Yzak, it was in the heat of the battle, I wonder if he wasn't even already hurt. It's not as if every soldier who kills civilians in a battle gets sacked. Even (or especially) nowadays.

[Dean_the_Young]

Durandel gets some genocide points, but he apparently was content with just wipping out individual nations, rather than destroying the entire planet.

Wiping out? From what I remember of Destiny it only escalated to Requiem's use after Blue Cosmos nicely built it. Then Durandal simply said that whatever nation was not with ZAFT was against ZAFT. And planned for a special ORB barbecue. At that point, I agree he was genocidal (does the word even exist in English?).

Of course, Orb had already been fighting ZAFT since nearly the beginning of the series (and the AA, which has been in conflict with ZAFT for longer, is "officially" made a Orb ship and shipped into space before the DP is announced), had already mobilized their forces before anyone else got to weigh in on whether they wanted DP or not, and otherwise intended to fight Durandle whether or not he had announced a DP.

[Dark Duel]

love how everyone is justifying all of the atrocities that ZAFT committed when Junius Seven was like what? A little more than 100,000 people?

243,721, actually.

Seriously though, after the garbage that ZAFT put Earth through, i'm a tad more sympathetic with the Blue Cosmos movement. It is fully understandable why a majority of Naturals would feel the way they do.

Now, I'm going to have to disagree. On the one hand, it's true that after what happened (The April Fools Crisis, the GENESIS Incident, Break The World), I sympathize to some degree with the fear and distrust that many Naturals would feel towards ZAFT.
But Blue Cosmos are, for all intents and purposes, terrorists, and it is my personal opinion that NOTHING justifies terrorism, no matter how high-minded the ideals behind it(I'm not just talking about BC here, but in general. BC is an example).

[Dean_the_Young]

love how everyone is justifying all of the atrocities that ZAFT committed when Junius Seven was like what? A little more than 100,000 people?

243,721, actually.

Well, disproportionate response is a hallmark of ZAFT policy. Honestly, it's the automatic response of many small, potentially fragile, but powerful nations.

Seriously though, after the garbage that ZAFT put Earth through, i'm a tad more sympathetic with the Blue Cosmos movement. It is fully understandable why a majority of Naturals would feel the way they do.

Now, I'm going to have to disagree. On the one hand, it's true that after what happened (The April Fools Crisis, the GENESIS Incident, Break The World), I sympathize to some degree with the fear and distrust that many Naturals would feel towards ZAFT.
But Blue Cosmos are, for all intents and purposes, terrorists, and it is my personal opinion that NOTHING justifies terrorism, no matter how high-minded the ideals behind it(I'm not just talking about BC here, but in general. BC is an example).

[/code]More to the point, Blue Cosmos are speciest-motivated terrorists. One can feel plenty of sympathy for anti-ZAFT/PLANT sentiment, but Blue Cosmos was hating them long before the war, mainly due to their own (sometimes brainwashed) prejudices.

[Zero Revenge]

Actually, it was probably the EA that started everything in the first place. Glenn was from Earth after all. If they hadn't allowed such a controversial thing to occur right under their nose (if it wasn't all planned in the first place), there wouldn't even be Coordinators, and by extension there would be no war.

Also, its their fault for putting the Coordinators in space.

How is the government suppose to stop one man from being genetically tampered with? (And it was in absolute secrecy no less) I highly doubt anyone knew about his genetical difference until after he had already done everything that he did (including being an Astronaut) and being a total jackass saying "Let's create another divide between humanity! Let's have Coordinators! Yay!".

So you're saying that it's the EA's fault that George Glenn was born and did what he did? The EA wasn't even formed till the Alaska Convention after the UN Bombing. How can one Nation be held responsible for someone's birth? Is it Austria's fault that Hitler was born there?

The Coordinators choose to leave, there were some Nations that were not hostile (or not as hostile) to Coordinators. I don't recall the entire Earth forcing the Coordinators up in droves to space. (There is always Orb)

love how everyone is justifying all of the atrocities that ZAFT committed when Junius Seven was like what? A little more than 100,000 people?

243,721, actually.

Seriously though, after the garbage that ZAFT put Earth through, i'm a tad more sympathetic with the Blue Cosmos movement. It is fully understandable why a majority of Naturals would feel the way they do.

Now, I'm going to have to disagree. On the one hand, it's true that after what happened (The April Fools Crisis, the GENESIS Incident, Break The World), I sympathize to some degree with the fear and distrust that many Naturals would feel towards ZAFT.
But Blue Cosmos are, for all intents and purposes, terrorists, and it is my personal opinion that NOTHING justifies terrorism, no matter how high-minded the ideals behind it(I'm not just talking about BC here, but in general. BC is an example).

Ah, Thank you on the exact number.

How are you really disagreeing with me since you just said you can understand how people would turn to Blue Cosmos? I'm not saying they are morally correct or without fault - no way. I'm merely stating that the Coordinators (indirectly) keep feeding into the very organization that they want to stop.

Terrorists or Freedom Fighters (as the phrase is "One man's terrorist, is another's freedom fighter"), you can understand why it would have the support it does, no?