Jumping The Shark

[Kavik Ryx]

Please, please can we have a thread like this without it reverting to some bashing war. It almost makes me want to suggest making SEED taboo. It's such a can of worms to get into that it's aggravating. This thread had nothing to do with the general quality of a series, just when everything good about it went down the toilet.

[MechaGear]

08th MS Team: Episode 7. Contrary to what people constantly say, I don't think this series is the perfect example of what makes Gundam so great. Between an idiotic lead, fancy weapons the common guy never dreamed ofpiloting, and a horrible love-across-the-battlefield premise, 08th did everything wrong that Gundams usually do wrong, but worse. All of that came into focus for me at episode 7. It was more Shiro and Aina pandering when, in reality, they had about zero chemistry and no reason to be falling for each other. After that, Shiro began acting increasingly moronic while Ginias spirals into one-dimensional madman. Norris's raid in the Gouf Custom was incredibly well done, but the poorly written finale of the battle negated much of what he had done.

O_O Man, I never thought I'd find a fellow Gundam fan who agreed with me about 08th MS Team. I sorta lost all hope when Shiro got out of his MS and was climbing around on the Apsalus, and then later when he stands in the line of fire of those Dopps, yelling at them to stop... Suspension of disbelief kinda disappeared. = /

[Chris]

Huh? The only high ranking EA staff we saw aside from Halberton at the beginning were Gerard Garcia and Fllay's dad, with the former easily passed off as another Wakkein and the other not doing anything memorable. All in all hardly a representation of the Alliance as a whole. And we never saw Sutherland or his chronies until the Archangel arrived at Alaska, which was really the first time we saw that the Alliance was run by racists; you wouldn't have been able to tell that with Halberton or even a self-serving scumbag like Garcia.

To say whether something represents the Alliance as a whole or not doesn't really matter, since we can only judge by what we're shown on screen, and what's shown is not a group of nice people. Flay's dad doesn't count because he's not military, and Garcia is certainly shown to be worse than Wakkein. Wakkein was just a stickler for rules, but Garcia was petty and opportunistic. Also, as I said before, Sutherland and his schemers are shown BEFORE the Archangel arrives at Alaska, not after. The Alliance being evil was no surprise... my April Fool's 2003 prank for the fake SEED sequel predicted them becoming evil with the Archangel turning on them months before those events actually happened.

[wing zero alpha]

Rather than go into a drawn out debate that would derail the thread and force you or one of the mods to close it, can you point out the episode where Sutherland and company first appeared? I don't remember Sutherland showing up at all until later in the series; certainly not around the time of Gerard and Halberton.

[Ork_dreadnought]

O_O Man, I never thought I'd find a fellow Gundam fan who agreed with me about 08th MS Team. I sorta lost all hope when Shiro got out of his MS and was climbing around on the Apsalus, and then later when he stands in the line of fire of those Dopps, yelling at them to stop... Suspension of disbelief kinda disappeared. = /

Pfft, while I'd agree that the romantic aspects could have been handled better, I think the critisms of Shiro and his actions aren't being made in context. Shiro is quite possibly the only pacifist in Gundam who does not come across as a plot sheilded emo, and the reason why this works is because he actively cares for those around him, and gets into trouble because of it. If you think his actions are a bit dumb, consider that the anime also agrees; his superiors laugth their asses off at him at his trial. One of the anime's main themes is good people and good intentions versus the reality of war, as Shiro epitomises that (see also Norris, Aina's attempts to care for the Zeon Soldiers, the mishap at the village, and the tank battle).


I'm sorry, Wing Zero, I had say that.

[Recon 5]

Plus, I don't think we have many Gundam heroes getting horrifically maimed in the end, right?

[NewtypeS3]

[Spoilers for Evangelion, Big O, New Getter Robo and DBZ in this post - as well as some Kamen Rider shows.]

Neon Genesis Evangelion:
Around episode 20 or so, just after the battle with the 14th Angel. It wasn't a bad jump, so to speak, but it was a serious shift in tone and spirit that many people I've spoken to find to be distasteful in terms of where the shift went. I personally liked the shift, but it was a definate jumping moment.

Big O:
Episode 13, to me. While Season II is excellent and works well, it all started from episode 13's philosophical moments and strange mysteries. It's another jump that I still enjoyed, but one that others have yet to voice positive things about.

New Getter Robo:
Episodes 5 and 6, for me. While the opening episodes of this series were enjoyable and fun, the random jaunt through time was just... off. And the series never fully recovered, if you ask me. It was still entertaining, but was nowhere near as fun anymore.

Dragonball/Z:
The Buu Saga. While it started off great with Gohan's adventures and a new world tournament - and the basis of some other solid things... the way it all unfolded with Goku coming back once more just... didn't work right. Especially with Gohan having supposed to be the main after the Cell Saga.

And while not anime, these also apply...

Kamen Rider Kabuto:
When the Perfect ZECTer showed up in episode 37, the combat in the series took a turn for the lazy - with Tendo spamming the Maximum Hyper Typhoon and Maximum Hyper Cyclone being akin to Kira Yamato's stock footage spams in late Seed. The plot was still somewhat entertaining, but refused to resolve several problems - as well as turning some of the fiercest villains into pure jokes. It was still a solid ending, but nowhere near as great as the series had once been.

Kamen Rider Den-O
Somewhere between episodes 33 and 36, to me. Episode 33 replaced one actor for another in the same role, with the overall effect being detrimental to the show in the long run. Meanwhile, episode 36 introduced yet another upgrade for the main (Liner Form) that seemed to undermine the previous upgrade (Climax Form) while looking horridly ugly and having almost no point in the first place. Combine this with a useless final villain being introduced during this time and... oi.
There were still some great episodes focusing on one of my two favorite characters and it still had a great ending, but that doesn't mean it didn't jump.

[Duraham]

for a more realistic version of the 08th MS team, try the manga Lost War Chronicles. here, we have a much more Shiro Shiro, and he actually caused the death of a teammate because of his Shiro-y attitude, among a host of other problems.

[Chris]

Rather than go into a drawn out debate that would derail the thread and force you or one of the mods to close it, can you point out the episode where Sutherland and company first appeared? I don't remember Sutherland showing up at all until later in the series; certainly not around the time of Gerard and Halberton.

Sutherland and his cronies appear at the beginning of episode 32, just before the Archangel arrives at Alaska. They're talking about how fortunate it is that Kira is dead because they don't want it known that a Coordinator is using their suit, and they examine the specs of the druggie Gundams before going on about their "blue and pure world" crap. That's several episodes before the battle of Alaska and the big "reveal" that the Alliance is evil.

[Draco Starcloud]

Dragonball Z: After the whole Namel Saga

I'd heard that Dragonball Z was supposed to end shortly after Goku died, which would've been great in my opinion. Everything after that just seemed like trite "Oh no! A new evil who is more powerful than the last has appeared without foreshadowing and the Z Fighters must achieve the next level of Super Saiyan to defeat him!" garbage.

Big O: Last two, three episodes

I didn't like the "everything is fake lol" ending they gave. It's like the "It was only a dream" cop-out with no resolution except that the bad guy got disintegrated or something.

[Qwerty]

Zeta Gundam- the last ten episodes, we start out with the Titans have the upper hand over the AEUG with thier Colony Laser. What should have been epic struggle, we instend get the stupid Rosamia subplot, Haman and Axis popping up as threat thus taking away important time from the AEUG vs Titans battle, Scirocco all of sudden becoming the main villain of the show after doing nothing sit arond in the background for most of the series, Lots of characters dieing pointless deaths for nothing and ending that doesn't really end at all.

Gundam Seed Destiny-Episode 41, when you have a clipshow during the last most important part of the series you know there a problem.

[Imperial]

Shiro is quite possibly the only pacifist in Gundam who does not come across as a plot sheilded emo, and the reason why this works is because he actively cares for those around him, and gets into trouble because of it.

Not a plot-shielded emo, you say?

Look at how his Ball ignored those Zaku machine gun bullets fired at point blank range into his machine. Now, unless he got his hands on the one Ball with luna titanium alloy in the entire Federation fleet, there is absolutely no excuse for him surviving the first episode.

As for his supposed pacifism...the guy was going on about how badly he wanted to get back at Zeon in the first episode. He was angry for the colony gassing and wanted someone to pay their pound of flesh. It was only after the Aina romance sub-plot took off that he's suddenly touchy feely.

If you think his actions are a bit dumb, consider that the anime also agrees; his superiors laugth their asses off at him at his trial. One of the anime's main themes is good people and good intentions versus the reality of war, as Shiro epitomises that (see also Norris, Aina's attempts to care for the Zeon Soldiers, the mishap at the village, and the tank battle).

We're getting into personal perception here, so I can't really prove you wrong but I will give my side.

I didn't see Shiro as particularly good or noble. I saw him as foolishly naive, fooling himself into thinking he could avoid killing others even though he was a soldier. Did he think they could just talk out all of their problems? The Zeons invaded Earth and dropped colonies on it to get their point across. There isn't going to be the cathartic epiphany that makes both sides sit down and have a nice time with each other.

He earned some brownie points for standing up to his obviously corrupt superiors, but he took his idealism way too far, passing into the realm of delusion. And all for what? An enemy soldier he barely even knows and has spent only a few hours with. It seems more like a teenage crush than true love.

[Kavik Ryx]

Zeta Gundam- the last ten episodes, we start out with the Titans have the upper hand over the AEUG with thier Colony Laser. What should have been epic struggle, we instend get the stupid Rosamia subplot, Haman and Axis popping up as threat thus taking away important time from the AEUG vs Titans battle, Scirocco all of sudden becoming the main villain of the show after doing nothing sit arond in the background for most of the series, Lots of characters dieing pointless deaths for nothing and ending that doesn't really end at all.

Gundam Seed Destiny-Episode 41, when you have a clipshow during the last most important part of the series you know there a problem.

It seems that there are two differing opinions on Z Gundam's last 10 eps. There is the view you stated, though mine is more that the Titans had become a lot more desperate after Char's epic speech and other, more ambitious individuals found the right time to make their power play.

Though on that note, I would say that A New Translation jumped when something happened which I'm not going to say because I don't know how to shrink text. It disallowed for the Kilimanjaro arc and made it impossible for my favorite scene in the series to happen, ie Char's speech.

Oh yeah, and you can't forget about Ideon's last couple of minutes. Luckily it was redeemed with Be Invoked and ultimately turned out in the series's favor.

As for GSD, I'm approaching that point with the next dvd, and I see that as the straw that may break the camel's back. Either that or Neo GENESIS and Requiem.

[MechaGear]

He earned some brownie points for standing up to his obviously corrupt superiors, but he took his idealism way too far, passing into the realm of delusion. And all for what? An enemy soldier he barely even knows and has spent only a few hours with. It seems more like a teenage crush than true love.

Yeah, that's really what it boils down to for me. Maybe it's worth noting, though, that poorly developed romances and improbable survivals are common problems of pretty much every military/mecha anime ever, it's really all about to what extent these problems overpower the show or not.

I think we're all on the same page in saying that 08th MS Team's love story was pretty flat and out of place. There's a lot to like about Shiro and the story around him, but as long as we're talking about "jumping the shark" moments, I think this certainly counts, right, Ork? I do apologize, though, for casting doubt on the quality of the show in general, in retrospect I should've worded my reply better (in the end, I still own all the DVDs, so I can't dislike it too much ^_^).

Duraham, I will check out that manga, thanks for the suggestion.

[turkishproverb]

for a more realistic version of the 08th MS team, try the manga Lost War Chronicles. here, we have a much more Shiro Shiro, and he actually caused the death of a teammate because of his Shiro-y attitude, among a host of other problems.

WTF? SHiro was at least enough of a soldier that he was WILLING to fight.


LWC is totally insane. Anyone who doesn't get drummed out of the service after that....

Anyone who complains about 08th MS team REALLY shouldn't be touting the merits of that book.

[Ork_dreadnought]

I think we're all on the same page in saying that 08th MS Team's love story was pretty flat and out of place. There's a lot to like about Shiro and the story around him, but as long as we're talking about "jumping the shark" moments, I think this certainly counts, right, Ork? I do apologize, though, for casting doubt on the quality of the show in general, in retrospect I should've worded my reply better (in the end, I still own all the DVDs, so I can't dislike it too much ^_^).

Well, its difficult to describe something as jump the shark when its part of the concept of the series from the start, although I do argee the romance was flat. That's what I'm objecting to, saying the romance jumped the shark, its a contradiction in terms. All the comments are largely valid.

Not a plot-shielded emo, you say?

Look at how his Ball ignored those Zaku machine gun bullets fired at point blank range into his machine. Now, unless he got his hands on the one Ball with luna titanium alloy in the entire Federation fleet, there is absolutely no excuse for him surviving the first episode.

As opposed to say, getting into a mobile suit you've never seen before, launching it, flicking through the manual as you go, killing two experienced MS pilots, and then fighting the most feared ace of the war to the standstill? No series would be that cheeky

I kid, I kid. Of course that's plot sheilding, but its the only instance associated with Shiro, and you could chalk that up as an continuity error or animation mistake. Unlike what tended to happen in Seed and Wing, for instance.

As for his supposed pacifism...the guy was going on about how badly he wanted to get back at Zeon in the first episode. He was angry for the colony gassing and wanted someone to pay their pound of flesh. It was only after the Aina romance sub-plot took off that he's suddenly touchy feely.

Yes, a man changed his mind after actually meeting with one of his hated foes. And not just meeting, working with that hated foe to survive a deadly situation, twice.

I didn't see Shiro as particularly good or noble. I saw him as foolishly naive, fooling himself into thinking he could avoid killing others even though he was a soldier. Did he think they could just talk out all of their problems? The Zeons invaded Earth and dropped colonies on it to get their point across. There isn't going to be the cathartic epiphany that makes both sides sit down and have a nice time with each other.

And doesn't episode 10 show him realising just that? You claim the character is naive, but you don't acknowledge the development of the character. Still, its your opinion and you are welcome to it. I agree that Shiro having a massive change of heart because of a hottie isn't hugely beleivable, but I'm a romantic, so I don't mind. I also don't hold up to be noble as such either, more likable.

[Recon 5]

To reinforce what dreadnought said, we have to make a distinction between something that suddenly nosedived mid- series and something that was bad from the very beginning. Also, let me add that the drop of one aspect is not called jumping the shark, neither is the gradual decline of a series from a clearly idenfifiable point.

What we are looking for is for a series to go from very good (or at least watchable) to downright rubbish in the span of a single episode or less (maybe halfway through an episode).

[Commissar Bright Noa]

Big O: Last two, three episodes

I didn't like the "everything is fake lol" ending they gave. It's like the "It was only a dream" cop-out with no resolution except that the bad guy got disintegrated or something.

According to Wikipedia (I know bad source but Adult Swim has hinted on this as well as most Big O sites have talked about it) Big O II wasn't intended to be the end, a third season was to be made but Adult Swim likes horrible Fox cartoons better so it got axed.

[Quiddity]

Neon Genesis Evangelion:
Around episode 20 or so, just after the battle with the 14th Angel. It wasn't a bad jump, so to speak, but it was a serious shift in tone and spirit that many people I've spoken to find to be distasteful in terms of where the shift went. I personally liked the shift, but it was a definate jumping moment.

Ah, good point. Eva's general criticism point is episodes 25 and 26, but I'd say the decline actually starts 4 episodes before that, episode 21. The narrative format of episode 21 where so much information was blatantly told to us is a big clash with the narrative style up to that point where there was so much mystery about what was going on. It's also around that point where the ridiculous pauses in the animation start. Rei dies in a great climatic scene, only to appear again minutes later, completely destroying all the impact that her death had. Kaworu appears and suddenly becomes the most important character in Shinji's life after 10 minutes of being on screen. And so on. The fact that they wasted so much time earlier in the series catches up to them big time and the show completely blew up until it was somewhat redeemed with End of Eva.

[Hyakushiki]

Rei's death and return was foreshadowed earlier in the series and was meant to setup the revelation that she is a clone and that it wasn't the first time she died. Kaworu's whole goal was to get close to Shinji and gain his trust so he would let down his defences, at the time he was the only person in his life that cared about him, only to betray that trust and force him into another no-win situation which made for good setup for the story's conclusion.