Terminal: Who were they, and what did they do?

[quasadra]

nah, i believe she just dont want to lose face .

[Indicible]

Especially since Cagelli, the supreme leader of Orb, more or less will believe anything from Lacus or Kira (who in Destiny takes his cues from Lacus)

Well, you've got to admit Lacus is generally dead accurate on what's going on. She may act like an ingenue, but she's got the brains the rest of the crew lacks.

Because when Djibril takes out 5 or so PLANT's with Requiem, instead of going after him, she still stays the biggest threat is Gilbert, Right?

Everybody is at that moment conscious of the threat Djibril poses. But nobody sees Durandal as a danger, even though, in a way, he is even more dangerous than Djibril.
Durandal's creed is a seductive one, whereas Djibril's is just that of a xenophobic warmonger.

[auriga]

The point here isn't about who's the greater evil or who people view as "evil." The thing was Lacus Clyne presented herself as a righteous freedom-fighter who opposed conflict, but in the end she did not lift a single finger against Logos (no, condemning them does not count) even though she clearly had the power to do so. Not to mention the fact that all their accusations against Dullindal were based on nothing more but whims and gut-feelings, at the most on an old notebook found in a beat-up colony once inhabited by lunatics who scratchbuilt human beings as a hobby, whereas Djibril was killing thousands if not millions in plain sight. As an "ally of justice and freedom" and one who has the guts to intervene in battlefields, shouldn't she have gone after Djibril as well?

(On a side note, she should take PR lessons from Zero. Heck, even the *currently* lifeless Veda would suffice.)

Anyways, enough of these ramblings. We've led the thread astray as it is.

[Indicible]

in the end she did not lift a single finger against Logos

As I recall, Lacus was in space when Durandal exposed Logos (she was on the Eternal from episode 27, Durandal's speech occurs in ep 33), only coming back to Earth in Infinite Justice (episode 39 or one just after that).
The ones that destroyed the Destroy in Berlin were Terminal. They acted against conflicts that were developing, but did not expose Logos. The effects of such a revelation were seen after Durandal's intervention: more hate, more conflicts. Durandal's bout of sincerity seems to me as a way to prove the righteousness of his views and not out of altruism.

[Dean_the_Young]

RedZaku at the Seed Forums board makes a rather strong case that Gil wasn't the badguy in Destiny, supported strongly with evidence such as a Director's interview post-Destiny, the retconning that was the Special Editions, the Ashtray extra materials, and pointing out some of the holes in Lacus's position, such as how supposedly coordinator commandoes with assault rifles can be overpowered by a cripple and an ex-captain with a pistol, and how Lacus and Cagelli violated their own treaty by keeping a nuclear powered mobile suit in Orb after making N-Jammer Cancelers illegal.

He can lack tact, but he cites sources rather well and can debate. It's actually halfway into the Shinn Asuka rant topic, which I recommend highly.

But as someone already said, this is more fit for another topic. If anyone starts said topic, I'd be happy to bring up this link and RedZaku's reasonings.

Edit: There's a mountain of quoting and backquoting going on in that link, even before RedZaku makes his first page at about page three or four, but I still recommend reading from front to back.

[Dark Duel]

The ones that destroyed the Destroy in Berlin were Terminal. They acted against conflicts that were developing, but did not expose Logos.

Indicible, Terminal is an information network - they don't have military strength.
The one who destroyed the Destroy in Berlin was Kira in the Freedom - a member of the Clyne Faction.
Regardless, not only did Clyne and her cronies not lift a finger against Logos, one should not ignore the part they played in delaying ZAFT's forces from entering Orb itself, thus facilitating Djibril's escape into space.

Because when Djibril takes out 5 or so PLANT's with Requiem, instead of going after him, she still stays the biggest threat is Gilbert, Right?

It was six, actually: Januarius 1 through 4 and December 7 and 8. The Januarius PLANTs were destroyed by a direct hit, the other two collapsed as a result of a collision with the destroyed Januarius PLANTs.

^And she was right, right? She's one step ahead!

Again, that is highly debatable. It all depends on which you think is more dangerous, a restrictive political ideal or genocide.

[Indicible]

Indicible, Terminal is an information network - they don't have military strength.

Who built the DOMs, Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice? Terminal or the Clyne Faction? It's not a counter-argument, it's just it'snot mentionned on MAHQ or in the anime...

[Dean_the_Young]

Indicible, Terminal is an information network - they don't have military strength.

Who built the DOMs, Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice? Terminal or the Clyne Faction? It's not a counter-argument, it's just it'snot mentionned on MAHQ or in the anime...

Terminal steals/builds, Clyne faction pilots. Terminal doesn't have military strength in the same way a military contractor doesn't. They may make guns, but the do not (and aren't trained to) use them.

[Dark Duel]

Indicible, Terminal is an information network - they don't have military strength.

Who built the DOMs, Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice? Terminal or the Clyne Faction? It's not a counter-argument, it's just it'snot mentionned on MAHQ or in the anime...

The Clyne Faction/Terminal built the DOMs.
ZAFT built the Strike Freedom, Terminal then stole it and customized it. Presumably the same holds true for IJ.

[auriga]

Dark Duel, I think SNT1 was being sarcastic.

And thanks for the referral, Dean. That certainly puts a lot of other things in perspective.

[Dean_the_Young]

And thanks for the referral, Dean. That certainly puts a lot of other things in perspective.

Aye, it is a good one, and it changed my view on Destiny from simply atrocious to something that had potential but then got scuttled.

But be careful not to take RedZaku's words too heart too quickly; he can be just as obstinate about a misconception as he can about what is true, and he seems to lack an understanding of various literary techniques, which he sometimes bases his arguments around. Such as a bizzar insistence that any statement or action made by an authority figure must be supported or repeated another few times.

In one thread, for example, he bases most of an argument that Lacus is emotionless around the fact that she only cries at the death of her father once, in the arms of the stranger Kira Yamamato. He argues that the fact that the elder Clyne is never mentioned or weeped over again is proof that Lacus has no emotion, rather than perhaps (bad/iffy) writting style. In literature, something only has to be presented once to be considered important and there, and it doesn't have to be repeated more than once (even if it would be better if done so).

(Similarly, even though an EA officer states early in Destiny that the EA is going to focus on MA, RZ makes the argument that that can't be true because MS are inately superior, his proof being how Athrun and Shinn take them down. Except that the use of an authority to give information is a common trait in all literature, and so the cannn source<him.)

[Zero Revenge]

Because when Djibril takes out 5 or so PLANT's with Requiem, instead of going after him, she still stays the biggest threat is Gilbert, Right?

It was six, actually: Januarius 1 through 4 and December 7 and 8. The Januarius PLANTs were destroyed by a direct hit, the other two collapsed as a result of a collision with the destroyed Januarius PLANTs.

Oh. Do you remember how many casualties they said there were? It's a shame he didn't wipe out all of them. For a Blue and Pure World!

(On a side note, she should take PR lessons from Zero. Heck, even the *currently* lifeless Veda would suffice.)

Me? Eh?

[domtropen]

And a lot of arguments over there in that link were hotly debated in various forums too. Btw isn't the company that make the anime has the final say in what is correct or not rather than the director or producer's idea?

I do not have access to Delta Astray, so how does the story end?

[Dark Duel]

Oh. Do you remember how many casualties they said there were? It's a shame he didn't wipe out all of them. For a Blue and Pure World!

No, but a conservative estimate would be in the whereabouts of 1.5 to 2 million.
And if you're gonna promote Blue Cosmos's pseudo-Nazi genocidal agenda, at least try and get the slogan right. It's "For the preservation of a blue and pure world."

[Zero Revenge]

Oh. Do you remember how many casualties they said there were? It's a shame he didn't wipe out all of them. For a Blue and Pure World!

No, but a conservative estimate would be in the whereabouts of 1.5 to 2 million.
And if you're gonna promote Blue Cosmos's pseudo-Nazi genocidal agenda, at least try and get the slogan right. It's "For the preservation of a blue and pure world."

I've never seen it said like that - always just "For a Blue and Pure World." Never what you said. Never.

Hell, even in the English dub they agree with what I say, as did the subs I watched at the time.

Edit: Okay, I remember once someone said "This is for the preservation..." but 9 outta 10 times, it's the shorter version.

And I don't support their genocidal agenda as you put it, but I just found the Atlantic Federation/OMNI to be a very interesting faction and I root for them. Not to mention in the Astray side-stories I quickly fell in love with the Natural pilots - Ed, Rena, Morgan, and Jane; among all of the others. It's like how people LOVE Zeon. They committed far worse acts of genocide, and I never see anyone getting mad about a "Sieg Zeon" here or there.

I said what I did because I always felt that ZAFT got away with a lot of just as equally bad acts, and no one ever brings up those, it's always just Blue Cosmos, and how they act like idiotic Bond villains.

[auriga]

@Dean: Yup, I agree with your sentiments. I myself would never consider Fukuda's "Kira deviated from the path of justice" etc, etc statement in a debate of this nature. That pretty much applies to most of what flashback 'em all said.

@Zero: No, not you. Code Geass, anyone?

Anyways, guys, we've seriously diverted the thread off course. Let's stop now before a mod has to make us stop.