Mediocre Okawara?

[Ork_dreadnought]

It's not as if Hyaku Shiki isn't a cross of Zeta, Gundam Mk.II and Rick Dias painted gold people...

How is that relevent? Hyaku Shiki was a fairly distinct design at the time, Akatsuki is clearly not. Background isn't really being discussed here, except to demonstrate the faintly rediculous idea that machines built by several different powers with different technological resources still manage to be so similar in design to each other AND much of the previous work by this artist.

[Deus EpS Machina]

Oh, and Akatsuki is a Strike ripoff in universe. Deal with it. Them Morgenroete dudes took that X-105 thing they'd be helping develop and tried to make a mass-production MS for Orb. Couldn't do Phase Shift, did Yata No Kagami, went "Wooooooooaaaaaaah" when they saw the cost, and threw it in a hangar to go focus on the Astrays. It actually precedes the M1 as such, though not its final equipment (as for how everything down there looks like it hasn't been touched in years when it would have had to have been, I just don't know.)

I dont see how Akatsuki can ever be called a Striek ripoff IN universe. Morgenroete has quite a history with the Strike design so i cant see why they wouldnt mess about with a design that worked.

For the purposes of THIS discussion, you may want to change that to Akatsuki is a Strike rip-off as a design, but even in that form your argument might possibly not hold true. IMO as far as Akatsuki is concerned it isnt a complete rip-off or a completely original design. Yes it looks like Strike but we dont know Okie's situation when he made the design. It could have been just that Fukuda or Bandai asked for such a design for it to /fit/ the CE. The CE has a certain design style in its mobile suits and that is there in Akatsuki. Possibly that design feature (as far as ORB is concerned) may have centred around Strike, so Okie made Akatsuki similar to it. Its all about relevance. Do you think GP03 would have been liked as a design had it not fit that particular era in UC?

Its why i think it isnt always the designer's fault a certain design is meh. Once that first batch of mobile suit designs hits animation, its got to be incredibly hard for them to allow any sort of paradigm shift.

Background relavance is extremely important. If for example, Katoki used a Hucky in UC, do you think people would revere it as much as they do? Or what about the reverse? A GP03 in Wing? Hell, take 00 just now where we see 0 Gundam which looks like RX-78, to me it looks completely out of place with the other designs.

It's not as if Hyaku Shiki isn't a cross of Zeta, Gundam Mk.II and Rick Dias painted gold people...

hahwhut? Shiki preceds them all.

[DeltasTaii]

I think the point was generally that you can apply this same mix and match mentality whereever you want, if you try hard enough. There are a lot of common elements in UC MS, including the Gouf being a lightly redesigned Zaku, AEUG family similarities (even when they don't make much sense in universe, ie. Mk.II->everything else) and the tons of Neo-Zeon remakes.

And really, it's actually the one time something is a rip-off-well, other than the Enact. Orb shouldn't have the Strike and machines developed directly from it, and the same actually applies to the Rouge. The fact that they do is rather underhanded, as were the Astrays even. It's similar to the AE crap, except Morgenroete represents a specific country.

Stealing things is only marginally different, as Jerid's initial take of the Hyaku Shiki being a "a cheap Mk.II knockoff" shows.

[Deus EpS Machina]

What, exactly, does that have anything to do with the discussion at hand?

In-universe 'rip-offs' shouldnt at all be looked down upon since most these designs follow a set lineage. This holds especially true to the UC. There is a reason for design feature similarities between designs that are only a few years apart, or are based on another successful design. Its justified.

[Dark Duel]

Regarding the Akatsuki, my take on it is as follows:
IN-UNIVERSE: We have to remember that, although Phase-Shift Armor technology originated with the Atlantic Federation, all five of the original GAT-X-series mobile suits were built by Orb - Specifically, by Morgenroete.
Now, since we already know Morgenroete had spare parts for the Strike, and that they'd done considerable R&D on the frame - developing, for example, the IWSP and Lightning Striker - since we also know that the Strike is superior to the Astray in several key ways, it stands to reason that Morgenroete would use the Strike's internal frame and design concept as the basis for a new Mobile Suit. So the fact that the Akatsuki is by and large a conceptual upgrade of the Strike basic frame is excusable
OUT-OF-UNIVERSE: As is clear, the Akatsuki is a Strike with only minor aesthetic differences. But there are so many of them (the sides of the head and antenna, the "goatee", the design of the torso and of the legs, the design and placement of its weapons) that it stands well enough alone - it's a blinged-up Strike, but it's also different enough to be distinct, and the resemblance has a plausible in-universe explanation.
I'd place it on an even footing with the Strike E/Noir, actually, in terms of difference. Though I do prefer the latter.

In fact, now I think of it, the Oowashi Akatsuki and Strike Noir are remarkably similar, but they went in completely different directions: The one is armored against the by-now much more common beam weaponry, and is equipped with beam cannons. The other retains ballistic/kinetic protection and is armed with somewhat less energy-consuming ballistic weapons - the linear cannons. Also, the basic Strike E is better equipped for ranged combat, at the detriment of its melee capability, while the Akatsuki retains the same ranged capability as the original Strike, but has improved melee.

Same concept, different design philosophy. It's similar to comparing the Assault Shroud and the Blu Duel: the former is built to give the Duel greater ranged capability, while its melee capabilities are unchanged; the other enhances both the close- and long-range capabilities of the mobile suit.

Minor nitpick addressed to Deus EpS Machina: Not quite right when you say the Hyaku Shiki "preceeds them all." It only preceeds the Zeta - both the Rick Dias and Gundam MkII preceed the Hyaku Shiki.

[Deus EpS Machina]

Minor nitpick addressed to Deus EpS Machina: Not quite right when you say the Hyaku Shiki "preceeds them all." It only preceeds the Zeta - both the Rick Dias and Gundam MkII preceed the Hyaku Shiki.

Yes yes, i know. I always mix Hyaku Shiki and Delta Gundam up, in which case Delta would preceed them (maybe not Rick Dias as it was a simultaneous project).

[flamingtroll]

Yes it looks like Strike but we dont know Okie's situation when he made the design. It could have been just that Fukuda or Bandai asked for such a design for it to /fit/ the CE. The CE has a certain design style in its mobile suits and that is there in Akatsuki.

That is true. I am almost irritated by comments like "OH that ZAKU is a complete UC rip-off". I am pretty sure it is called a ZAKU, GOUF and DOM because it is supposed to look like their UC counter part and not a spiritual successor like a GINN to a UC Zaku. Okawara does not have the finally say in how everything should look. If the director or the plamo department at Bandai doesn't want it this way, they would have not used the designs, just as how they choose to use newer designs and designers for Gundam 00. Let's not have all the blames of a collective failure to please everyone onto Okawara alone.

[Aegis]

Calling Freedom a Double X franken is always...freaking silly (once again, ZOMG BACK CANNONS, but with ZOMG WING LIKE SHAPES this time. No, Master, and every Wing variant didn't have the latter either). DX is a big, bulky monster of a Gundam whereas Freedom is on the elegance side of MS design. It's leagues closer to F91 anyways, if you feel the need.

Nevermind that the DX itself is a speedster in its own right. Who said anything about function? If that were the case, every mecha designed would've been considered a rip. With the Freedom, if only it were as simple as fan wings and shoulder cannons. It's also the rest of the torso as well with Strike head, ZAFT arms, and the typical Okie legs. Put those two side by side and it's amazing as to how blatantly alike they really are. Given the uniqueness of the overall DX design, you really can't call this as being anything BUT blatantly cutting corners. On the other hand, the comparisons between the 00 machines to, say, a Zaku, based on having arms and legs, THAT'S being superficial.

I think the point was generally that you can apply this same mix and match mentality whereever you want, if you try hard enough.

Key words: try hard enough. No one is saying that there wouldn't be similarities, especially when certain MS happen to follow a distinct lineage like it was with every single Gundam ever made. Thing is, while a person can see the similarities, you can't call them rips due to the fact that they were, at the very least, modified well enough to stand out. What's the issue some of us have with the current SEED designs? It takes more effort to find the differences than it is to find the similarities.

[auriga]

That is true. I am almost irritated by comments like "OH that ZAKU is a complete UC rip-off". I am pretty sure it is called a ZAKU, GOUF and DOM because it is supposed to look like their UC counter part and not a spiritual successor like a GINN to a UC Zaku. Okawara does not have the finally say in how everything should look. If the director or the plamo department at Bandai doesn't want it this way, they would have not used the designs, just as how they choose to use newer designs and designers for Gundam 00. Let's not have all the blames of a collective failure to please everyone onto Okawara alone.

This argument was already debunked posts ago. If you want to make a tribute, that doesn't mean you're limited to simply copying. We've had years and years of Zaku II tributes and they looked nothing like the Zaku and yet they achieved what they set out to do: pay tribute to the UC's great workhorse cannonfodder. If anything, the Tieren is present proof of this.

And mind you, IMO, Destiny's ZAKU was on the right track. Hence I don't see the logic of completely copying the Gouf and the Dom.

What's the issue some of us have with the current SEED designs? It takes more effort to find the differences than it is to find the similarities.

True that. The making of comparisons in Destiny mechs is already quite a ritual. It's sad that they're being remembered because they're anchored onto MS X and Y. Whatever happened to the good 'ol days when they're called "the robot with a 'stache" or "the one with feathers in its wings?"

[Recon 5]

Whatever happened to the good 'ol days when they're called "the robot with a 'stache" or "the one with feathers in its wings?"

Mind you, those were the reasons quite a few people gave for absolutely despising those designs.

[flamingtroll]

This argument was already debunked posts ago. If you want to make a tribute, that doesn't mean you're limited to simply copying. We've had years and years of Zaku II tributes and they looked nothing like the Zaku and yet they achieved what they set out to do: pay tribute to the UC's great workhorse cannonfodder. If anything, the Tieren is present proof of this.

And mind you, IMO, Destiny's ZAKU was on the right track. Hence I don't see the logic of completely copying the Gouf and the Dom.

Debunked what? What Argument? It's a comment not an argument. Why would Okawara need to make a tribute to his very own designs? I am saying that making almost identical looking suits with slightly modernized features IS the intention of the entire SEED Destiny production to begin with and such a production decision is not Okawara alone to make. It 's not like Okawara marches into the Bandai CEO's office and says, "Uses these designs for SEED Destiny or I will quit and your company will go bankrupt". I am pretty tired of how they are used as examples of Okawara getting uncreative. On the contrary, seeing how he is able to adopt different styles and made his designs to match it (like his various Turn A designs to match that of of Turn-A's features) and how he clean up designs to blend different MS styles form different designers into a more coherent continuity, as well as ease in making model kits and animation while still maintaining their uniqueness. And I honestly can't see how you can like the ZAKU while hating the GOUF and DOM. Seems like a pretty natural step to me. They are pretty much the same level of similarity as their UC counter parts.

[auriga]

...Debunked the argument that the designs are borne out of the fact that it isn't Okawara who calls the shots. I suggest reading back.

Mind you, those were the reasons quite a few people gave for absolutely despising those designs.

It's not about liking or hating a design. I said those examples to show their uniqueness. Take the Destiny, for example; you can't refer to it as the "robot with glowing particles for wings," because the V2 also fits the description.

[Kavik Ryx]

Just look at each factions style. Zeon, solid and rounded; Feddies, thin and boxy; X-Bone, rather 1984ish Jin Roh like; Zanscare, exotic; Gundam fighters, cultural stereotype; Colonists, medieval; Oz, like weapons; UNE, interesting combination of polygons; SRA, without corners; Moonrace, larger than life I guess; Union, sleek,; AEU, Union ripoff; HRL, mechanical. The Alliance on the other hand has the same thin and boxy look of the Feds. Zaft goes between thinner Zeon knockoffs to total bastardizations of all other style, they don't have a solid one. Neither side has a style that belongs to them and only then, and that's where the mediocrity comes from.

[flamingtroll]

...Debunked the argument that the designs are borne out of the fact that it isn't Okawara who calls the shots. I suggest reading back.

Er, Where? I did read back. I see nothing but arguments over opinion on how much recycled "parts" were present in his designs. Does someone in this forum actually work at Bandai or Sunrise and know how their shows are made? That I have to see. As far as I can tell, from reading bits from various sources over the years, the business decision always has a great impact on what the suits look like. Inferred examples are everywhere: The miniturization of F91 and up suit due to the rising cost of plamo production during the bubble economy of the early 90s in Japan. That's probably a reason why V gundam suits are greatly simplified in details compared to F91 suits. The original Gundam being tri-colour instead of white. The various transformation MS you see in in Zeta due to popularity of transforming mecha brought on by Macross. The combining ZZ because it is a kid's shows and meant to reintroduce some super-robot elements.
Introducing the Strike Freedom as a almost entirely same suit of the Freedom is a business decisions. And the sales of their respective kits shows that they were right - people will buy any gundam with nice looking wings.

[Koshernova]

You're debunking your own argument, flamingtroll. The debate here is about how Ohkawara has become mediocre, not the commercial viability of his designs, which obviously remains high.

[Strike Zero]

Just look at each factions style. Zeon, solid and rounded; Feddies, thin and boxy; X-Bone, rather 1984ish Jin Roh like; Zanscare, exotic; Gundam fighters, cultural stereotype; Colonists, medieval; Oz, like weapons; UNE, interesting combination of polygons; SRA, without corners; Moonrace, larger than life I guess; Union, sleek,; AEU, Union ripoff; HRL, mechanical.

The Alliance on the other hand has the same thin and boxy look of the Feds. Zaft goes between thinner Zeon knockoffs to total bastardizations of all other style, they don't have a solid one. Neither side has a style that belongs to them and only then, and that's where the mediocrity comes from.

I think Kavik just summed up the entire problem here. As it has been stated however many hundreds of times before in this thread, The designs in SEED are solid, but have been seen many times before. You could stick any one of ZAFTs mobile suits in with a bunch of Zeon ones, and somebody who knows jack about Gundam wouldn't be able to distinguish what belongs to what faction. The same goes for the EAF mobile suits and the Earth Federation's long line of GMs.


About the ZAKU, GOUF and DOM:

I honestly can't see how you can like the ZAKU while hating the GOUF and DOM. Seems like a pretty natural step to me. They are pretty much the same level of similarity as their UC counter parts.

No. No they are not.

To put this ZAKU, GOUF and DOM thing to rest once and for all, let's do a side by side comparison of each one.

First, the UC Zaku and CE Zaku. There are definitely similarities in the design, but at the same time there are also several differences. The CE version looks like it was made by ZAFT. It has its own set of design floureshes, enough to be considered a completely different mobile suit.

The same does not apply to the GOUF and DOM. If you were to compare them to their UC counterparts and look at them closely... you see they are the same. Exactly the same right down to every last detail. The only real difference is that the CE versions are more angular in their design.

Hence, you can see why people have a problem with them. The ZAKU looks like there was actual effort put into thinking up the design, while the GOUF and DOM don't even come close.

As far as I can tell, from reading bits from various sources over the years, the business decision always has a great impact on what the suits look like. Inferred examples are everywhere: The miniturization of F91 and up suit due to the rising cost of plamo production during the bubble economy of the early 90s in Japan. That's probably a reason why V gundam suits are greatly simplified in details compared to F91 suits. The original Gundam being tri-colour instead of white. The various transformation MS you see in in Zeta due to popularity of transforming mecha brought on by Macross. The combining ZZ because it is a kid's shows and meant to reintroduce some super-robot elements.
Introducing the Strike Freedom as a almost entirely same suit of the Freedom is a business decisions. And the sales of their respective kits shows that they were right - people will buy any gundam with nice looking wings.

It's true that making the lead mobile suit look pretty is pretty much required of the designer, since Bandai's primary goal is to sell model kits. However, there is no way you can tell me that that completely influences the way the designer actually designs the mobile suits. Gundam 00 is proof enough of that.

[Aegis]

My personal issue with the ZAKU has always simply come down to preference; even when comparing with both Zaku I and II, I also agree that they're not quite the same deal. In other words, I simply hate it because it looks bland and ugly.

And, yes, the whole Sunrise control would've been great proof of why Okie's MS are made the way they are... except that it totally flies in the face of the Astray Gundams, and the five original Gundams. As has been pointed out, even with Sunrise control, they don't come in and flat out whip you into drawing the foot in a certain bland way as much as they approve the design or not (hence why the Destiny Gundam design was originally supposed to be the Freedom Gundam before Sunrise went with the fan winged Freedom we know today), thus note the huge, sharp contrast between those designs. If there was true total control, then at least the EA designs should actually reflect more of the likes of the Blitz, Strike, Aegis, Buster, and Duel. Instead, the later Gundams and mobile suits end up tossing much of the established styles there, and replaced much of that with the more typical smoothed leg boxy look.

Oh, and clean-up has less to do with making a design flow with the rest, and has alot more to do with taking the rough draft and drawing them out into good draft and making them animation friendly. The original designs actually remain as roughs until they get approved for clean up. Whatever flow is needed, it should've already been established well before clean up itself. It's why typically, there would be more than one mecha designer on a show splitting their efforts between either certain designs or certain factions (eg. Okie doing the Gundams while Katoki doing the Oz designs). SEED and especially Destiny basically gave all the work to Okie and thus the problems really arise.

I think Kavik just summed up the entire problem here. As it has been stated however many hundreds of times before in this thread, The designs in SEED are solid, but have been seen many times before. You could stick any one of ZAFTs mobile suits in with a bunch of Zeon ones, and somebody who knows jack about Gundam wouldn't be able to distinguish what belongs to what faction. The same goes for the EAF mobile suits and the Earth Federation's long line of GMs.

Taking this a tad further, an excellent mecha artist I know once said this specifically about the Freedom Gundam: the design would've been considered a nice, fresh design if SEED actually came well before most Gundam series, yet since that isn't the case, it's considered bland in his eyes.

[DeltasTaii]

Same down to the last detail but more angular? Uh, that's a Katoki or Fukuchi redesign, the GOUF and DOM are if nothing else different at the last detail. Unless you're putting DOM against the RF Dom from the F90 design series rather than the original or even 0080 and 0083 Dom, the only thing they share is the basic shape, which has been true of every MS with the letters "d-o-m" in them ever. GOUF admittedly has no definingly different features other than ZAKU feet, but if you can't tell which is Zeon and which is ZAFT, I doubt you could tell a ZAKU from a Zaku (as many people apparently can't). Totally different approach to its design geometry.

That's not to say I think the GOUF Ignited was all that well executed-its crapton of geometrical shapes seem over simplified and toyfully awkward, with only the modern ZAKU elements feel in the design as an upside. DOM on the other hand, does as good of a job as the ZAKU to my eyes, it just had a much harder problem to work with to seem unique. (since while the Zaku is kind of generic and has been seen again in everything from Goufs to Marasais to Dogas to Den'ans to Death Armies to Jenices to GINNs, a Dom is a Dom is a Dom, and the specific colour scheme more iconic)

[flamingtroll]

You're debunking your own argument, flamingtroll. The debate here is about how Ohkawara has become mediocre, not the commercial viability of his designs, which obviously remains high.

No . My argument is that SEED Destiny is not a good indication of his ABILITY to design becoming medicore. As a lot of things go into designing other than the person's own creative license alone. Yet destiny designs seem to come up and up again as a "evidence" of Okawara being mediocre as a designer because it is all his fault that resulted in such uninspired designs, which I don't think is justified at all. Yet people talk as if they have designed mechas for years and know what Okawara is doing thoughout and therefore he has became mediocre. It is the same as saying Fukuda is medicore as an anime director just because of SEED Destiny, or he has to retired because is becoming mediocre just because he had done better before. It would be more fair to say that the entire production was itself mediocre in effort.

And, yes, the whole Sunrise control would've been great proof of why Okie's MS are made the way they are... except that it totally flies in the face of the Astray Gundams, and the five original Gundams. As has been pointed out, even with Sunrise control, they don't come in and flat out whip you into drawing the foot in a certain bland way as much as they approve the design or not (hence why the Destiny Gundam design was originally supposed to be the Freedom Gundam before Sunrise went with the fan winged Freedom we know today), thus note the huge, sharp contrast between those designs. If there was true total control, then at least the EA designs should actually reflect more of the likes of the Blitz, Strike, Aegis, Buster, and Duel. Instead, the later Gundams and mobile suits end up tossing much of the established styles there, and replaced much of that with the more typical smoothed leg boxy look.

Except there has yet to be multiple MG iterations (I honestly think Freedom and Strike Freedom is the samething, not to mention various versions of them), various scales HG or just normal grade, MSIA and so on of the Astray Gundams and the 5 GAT-X. Which mean Okawara wins again in doing a good job in doing what Bandai would want- a design that sells. Your reasoning would apply to any suits that look different in any series. They approved things like Babi, Zno and all kinds of fugtacular things. That doesn't mean Sunrise suddenly approve of "original" designs. And IMO, The Okawara gundams followed GAT-X's designs pretty well, due to probably the fact that he also cleaned up the original 5, which allow their styles to blend better together.

Oh, and clean-up has less to do with making a design flow with the rest, and has alot more to do with taking the rough draft and drawing them out into good draft and making them animation friendly. Razz The original designs actually remain as roughs until they get approved for clean up. Whatever flow is needed, it should've already been established well before clean up itself. It's why typically, there would be more than one mecha designer on a show splitting their efforts between either certain designs or certain factions (eg. Okie doing the Gundams while Katoki doing the Oz designs). SEED and especially Destiny basically gave all the work to Okie and thus the problems really arise.

Not just that. The perfect example would be the original sketches of the 5 GAT-X that was posed not too long ago and the resulting line art of the actual thing. Their proportions and some details are quite different from what you see in the final product due to the different styles. Just look at the legs and the head proportion for example. The head design is also somewhat modified to have a more conformed "gundam face" style.

The same does not apply to the GOUF and DOM. If you were to compare them to their UC counterparts and look at them closely... you see they are the same. Exactly the same right down to every last detail. The only real difference is that the CE versions are more angular in their design.

Well it really depends on how detailed you want to look at it. Sure it doesn't have the vents that ZAKU has to distinguish itself from Zaku. The legs for example are still very much inline of ZAKU leg design with the Gouf twist. The same go for the arms. The shield is different. The mono-eye track tend to looks like it is curving up the head rather than around the head like UC Goufs. And of course the flight pack. DOM, as it had been said alreayd is quite different. The head visor is now a upside down T with a long chin and now a cross, that is a very notable feature change. Bulkier armor, feet guard like that of ZAKU, thruster pack that looks like ZAKU one. The feet are not flat hoverbed and look more normal feet.

It's true that making the lead mobile suit look pretty is pretty much required of the designer, since Bandai's primary goal is to sell model kits. However, there is no way you can tell me that that completely influences the way the designer actually designs the mobile suits. Gundam 00 is proof enough of that.

And that isn't what I am saying either, I am just saying that you cannot say everything shows that Okawara is mediocre, especially when it is obviously done on purpose like the case of the ZAKUs up to DOM ,or the general designs of SEED which IMO tries quite hard to become simplified and "blocki-size" to try to look some what closer to UC drawing style. Because creating marketable gundams is what mecha designers is trying to do, not trying to design the most unique gundam ever.

It has yet to be seen how popular Gundam 00 designs would get, not to mention possible upgrades that they can get along the way. And of course it is quite obvious that they were setting out to make a some what different gundam show to begin with, and the designs match that goal natrually.

[Recon 5]

(as many people apparently can't).

And here I thought that was simply a confusion between lower and uppercase letters .