MP Zam

[Zangetsu]

Why didn't Zeon mass produse the Big Zam or a similar suit? As Dozle said if they had put the Big Zam into mass production they would have won.

Also why didn't Neo Zeon mass-produce/ improve Neue Zeil? It took on and beat abything the Federation sent at it. And it's pilot wasn't even a newtype.

[ORegan]

Both of them are expensive projects to MP, and in the case of the Big Zam MP, the war ended about a week after Solomon, which was when the Big Zam debuted, so there wouldn't be enough time.

[Zangetsu]

Ok! I can acept the Zam due to date. However Axis had four years and with the stuff I've seen them pull out I don't think one or three would be a streach.

[Phantomexe87]

Actually, given how fast the Zeon work, they could probably have mass produced the Big Zam (as it was created quite a while before the Battle of Solomon), but they'd probably half-ass it, like this.

http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/Gundam/gg/ma-09.htm

The Neue Ziel first appeared in 0083, so when ZZ Gundam was made, there of course was no Neue Ziel. Now for an in-story explanation, Axis didn't exactly have the resources to MP NZs.

[mcred23]

Why didn't Zeon mass produse the Big Zam or a similar suit? As Dozle said if they had put the Big Zam into mass production they would have won.

Just because Dozle said it doesn't make it true.

That said, the Big Zam was hugely expensive, hugely complex, and had a very limited operating time, plus no time in which to put the machine into production, as ORegan noted. It may have been effective in combat, but it was in no way a machine you'd want to put into limited production, let alone complete mass production.

Also why didn't Neo Zeon mass-produce/ improve Neue Zeil? It took on and beat abything the Federation sent at it. And it's pilot wasn't even a newtype.

Again, the cost and hugely complex nature (Even more so than the Big Zam) of the Neue Ziel make it far too impractical to mass produce, inspite of how effective it turned out to be.

EDITU: Replies to more stuff!

Ok! I can acept the Zam due to date. However Axis had four years and with the stuff I've seen them pull out I don't think one or three would be a streach.

By the time Axis came back to Earth in UC 0087, they had other things to use. They had Newtype weapons, which were more effective, and many other designs in development (As well as their swarms of Gaza-based units). While a Neue Ziel would still probably have been effective in combat, again, it's cost and complex nature were still probably a major issue that kept it's numbers down.

[Zangetsu]

Really so they can go crazy with experimental mobile suits and small mobile armors but, they can't find room for one to three Neue Zeils? It didn't seam such a problem to just give one away.

Edit: Asw I live in the States I have never seen only heard of ZZ.

[Imperial]

Why didn't Zeon mass produse the Big Zam or a similar suit? As Dozle said if they had put the Big Zam into mass production they would have won.

Dozle wasn't exactly in a position to make that call. He was spouting rhetoric after ambushing the Federation fleet with a weapon they had never seen before. He had yet to encounter its Achilles heel (and what a heel it was).

Besides, Mobile Armors are, for the most part, impractical. They eat up the time and resources that Zeon just didn't have. Most of the Mobile Armors that appear during the One Year War have a rather poor showing, which may account for why they more or less die out after that conflict. There are exceptions, of course, but the mobile suit is generally a smarter way to go. Even the Titans' deadly transformable mobile suits had a humanoid form to fall back on when the armor mode wouldn't suffice.

Also why didn't Neo Zeon mass-produce/ improve Neue Zeil? It took on and beat abything the Federation sent at it. And it's pilot wasn't even a newtype.

Seriously? The Neue Ziel didn't exist when Tomino wrote ZZ.

Meta-references aside, I can only assume it was another case of the Mobile Armor being an unwieldy proposition. For every Neue Ziel that Axis churned out, that's probably a dozen (or more) conventional mobile suits that they'll have to shelve.

As Zeta suggests and ZZ more or less confirms, the only thing Axis really had going for it was numbers. Most of Axis Zeon's mobile suits were lackluster at best and the typical Axis pilot was a greenhorn who had never seen real combat before. Putting a newbie in a moving weapons platform is a waste of money, as it will likely go down in flames before said newbie can accomplish anything with it. You've wasted all that time and money building it for nothing. On the other hand, if you flood the enemy with MS, even a novice pilot can do something of use. Even if it's just firing his weapon and drawing enemy fire, something is accomplished. All those enemy units will likely bury an enemy pilot. Quantity over quality was the name of the game and the Mobile Armor concept wasn't a very good player.

Really so they can go crazy with experimental mobile suits and small mobile armors but, they can't find room for one to three Neue Zeils? It didn't seam such a problem to just give one away.

In all likelihood, Axis just put the finishing touches on a half-finished mobile armor they had lying around from the One Year War. As powerful as it was, the Neue Ziel would likely be overwhelmed by the super-suits of the Neo Zeon War (Quin Mantha, Geymalk, Qubeley team, etc.). Giving it to Gato let them get the thing off their hands while maximizing the damage done during Stardust. Axis had little reason to keep or recreate the Neue Ziel.

[Zangetsu]

However in my opinion one Ace in a good suit, armor, whatever is worth an army of nameless soon to be dead grunts.

Edit: Still they put some money into it and look how well that turned out. Delas' goals were meet and for once Zeon won.

[Phantomexe87]

Except that it didn't seem like Axis had any aces, at least, not any that I could distinguish. Considering they are led by Haman, a 21 year old girl with no combat history, and were giving out advanced prototype mobile suits to people of questionable mental stability. I don't think they had any Gatos lying around.

[Imperial]

However in my opinion one Ace in a good suit, armor, whatever is worth an army of nameless soon to be dead grunts.

Possible, but Axis was short on aces. They didn't have that luxury.

Besides, most of the aces they had eventually wound up with a Newtype death machine. As great as the Neue Ziel was, it couldn't compete with beasts like the Quin Mantha. Axis didn't need to rebuild it simply because they had something better on hand.

Delas' goals were meet and for once Zeon won.

The Delaz fleet was ravaged by the Federation pursuit fleet, with only a scant few surviving the gauntlet. What's more, the whole thing backfired horrifically. Stardust was designed to help spacenoids, but it only gave the Federation an excuse to spawn the Titans. It was a Pyrrhic victory, at best.

[Zangetsu]

I consider an ace any pilot with good skills or luck (Heck they need both), and from what I know of ZZ they had good pilots. At least good enough to give expensive prototypes.

Edit: Quin Mantha might be better but, what if you gave Neuel Zeil acsess to they same technalogical improvments, hm?

[Phantomexe87]

I consider an ace any pilot with good skills or luck (Heck they need both), and from what I know of ZZ they had good pilots. At least good enough to give expensive prototypes.

You really need to watch ZZ. Most of Neo Zeons pilots were people who grew up on Axis, not One Year War vets. After they started invading Earth, their soldiers got some experience, and they got a lot of help from Zeon OYW vets, but at the start, they undeniably lacked good pilots, much less, experienced pilots.

[mcred23]

However in my opinion one Ace in a good suit, armor, whatever is worth an army of nameless soon to be dead grunts.

Zeon tried doing that. It was one of the reasons they lost the OYW.

Edit: Quin Mantha might be better but, what if you gave Neuel Zeil acsess to they same technalogical improvments, hm?

Then not much would change, mainly it's weapons would now be wireless. An improvement, to be sure, but it wouldn't change the machine very much.

[Zangetsu]

Exactly how am I suposed to watch it? And furthermore are you trying to tell me that they just gave random nood expensive and powerful prototypes for no reason?!

[Imperial]

I consider an ace any pilot with good skills or luck (Heck they need both), and from what I know of ZZ they had good pilots. At least good enough to give expensive prototypes.

Not really

They didn't give their prototypes to good pilots. They gave them to whoever was on hand. Mashymre and Chara are two such examples. The former couldn't defeat a fourteen-year-old street urchin in singles combat despite his access to high tech Zeonic weaponry. The latter suffered violent mood swings, trying to kill Judua one moment and hug him the next.

Axis Zeon fielded what they had with whoever they could.

Edit: Quin Mantha might be better but, what if you gave Neuel Zeil acsess to they same technalogical improvments, hm?

Why bother? The Neue Ziel is a lot bigger, so you have to pour more resources into constructing its armor, hydraulics, etc.

As Gundam F91 proves, bigger is not better in the Gundam realm. Smaller makes for lighter, more agile weapons, which is what made mobile suits so revolutionary in the first place. The Neue Ziel is practically a battleship. It's really a miracle it performed as well as it did in the era of mobile suits.

[Zangetsu]

So the had no OYW Vets? Only Char made it from the OYW and what happen to those Stardust vets? I know Stardust came after but wouldn't that mean that they should've had some pilots?

[mcred23]

So the had no OYW Vets? Only Char made it from the OYW and what happen to those Stardust vets? I know Stardust came after but wouldn't that mean that they should've had some pilots?

In all likelyhood, no. Most of the Delaz Fleet was wiped out by the Federation pursuit forces, and only a handful (If even that many) of them got through (Like Karius). No matter how you may try to spin it, Axis didn't have any great numbers of pilots left over after the OYW or Stardust.

[Zangetsu]

You don't need great number to have good pilots. One like Karius would probable been better than a noob.

[Phantomexe87]

You realize, there was a huge war, right before ZZ? Where a lot of those OYW vets fought in, and a good chunk of which died or were crippled in it.

[Zangetsu]

But plenty survived. Also weren't there some zeon on marz?