That's because you're dwelling on supporting plot points that aren't embelished because they don't serve the story. Yes, we could spend an entire episode developing Killing as a character and motivations. But Gundam 0080 isn't a story about Killing; it's a story about Bernie and Al. Yes, Gundam 0080 also sends a message on the true tragedy of war, but that's secondary. It's Bernie and Al, the characters and their own personal tragedy that is the focus of the story.
The ending is not contrivance, it is proper drama. The story focuses on character and we are shown the characters involved from the beginning. They are the people involved in the story, not the story trying to involve people. Gundam 0080's strength as drama is the characters; the atypical hero is an everyman fighting for the supposedly bad side; the stereotypical villain we expect to be piloting the Gundam is instead displaced by a fully three dimensional antagonist with whom we can relate. We don't what happens to Killing, or military operations or the Cyclops team. We care about Bernie, Al and Chris and what will happen to them.
The brilliance is that Gundam 0080 uses science fiction and a limited scope to create that tragedy and take it furtrher than it could in a more conventional narrative. The story is total fiction in the future and thus the audience cannot favor sides. The audience is intially far removed from this conflict, much like Al himself. This could only be achieved by science fiction, since a more conventional story told in a real world context would instantly provoke the audience to take sides. Then thanks to the likable characters, the audience is suddenly absorbed by their tale. Yet Gundam 0080 remains small in scope, realizing the fictional universe in which the characters exist only in as much as it serves the story. The result is a gripping drama that fulfills everything it setups using the strength of science fiction and the visual style unique to anime to deliver a truly powerful OVA.
Gundam 0080 on the ANN's "Buried Treasure" Feature
Granted, but Killing's actions are at the center of the story. If his actions are just there to set up the proper ending, then they are a contrivance. If not, then I would at least expect them to be plausible. While I don't think that Killing should be at the center of the drama or even that his character should be explored to any great degree, but if he really does want to nuke a colony just because (there are probably decent reasons that he could have had, but you have to speculate on them because the series doesn't offer any), it makes the whole situation seem less real to me because that's the type of motivation I expect to see in more cartoony situations rather than a serious look at a war. Even a short line about not being able to accept a colony aiding the federation would have been great.MrMarch wrote:That's because you're dwelling on supporting plot points that aren't embelished because they don't serve the story. Yes, we could spend an entire episode developing Killing as a character and motivations. But Gundam 0080 isn't a story about Killing; it's a story about Bernie and Al.
The reason that I am confused so much about Killing is because as far as I can see the entire point of his existence is to make life horrible for Bernie in particular and also everyone else on Libot. I actually would have preferred that he not be present in the story at all, because then we could assume that there is some miscommunications or difference of opinions in the command structure that lead to the situation. But to make it pretty much the master plan of one person... you have to wonder why.
I'm not disputing that Bernie and Al are the main characters of the series or that they shouldn't be (though I never cared much about Chris to be honest... but that's probably because I didn't like her characterization). Sure the ending is important for the characters but the situation they are put into has to make some amount of sense. I guess what bothers me is that Bernard never really questions why the nuclear threat is so written in stone, and why it is so absolutely essential that this one prototype be taken out.The ending is not contrivance, it is proper drama. The story focuses on character and we are shown the characters involved from the beginning. They are the people involved in the story, not the story trying to involve people. Gundam 0080's strength as drama is the characters; the atypical hero is an everyman fighting for the supposedly bad side; the stereotypical villain we expect to be piloting the Gundam is instead displaced by a fully three dimensional antagonist with whom we can relate. We don't what happens to Killing, or military operations or the Cyclops team. We care about Bernie, Al and Chris and what will happen to them.
It doesn't help that the person he must fight just so happens to be his love interest from the past few episodes. This doesn't bother me so much because it's pretty obvious from the start that they'll end up fighting each, but adding that on top of the "Bernie must head into a hopeless battle for no good reason" factor is a bit much to take. And then the threat just happens to be neutralized just in time for Al to hear about it but too late for him to do anything about it but get to the battle just in time to see Bernie die.
You have to admit that the circumstances leading up to Al witnessing Bernie's Zaku go down are at the very least unlikely, and that the only reason that the occur like that is to maximize the end tradegy. But for me, at some point I just disconnected, because the writers were so clearly making a situation that no one could make. Not that writers shouldn't do that, but I think they could have been less obvious about it.
Don't get me wrong I don't hate 0080 and I do think it has it's moments. I just don't see why the ending is so adored. Perhaps it is just a difference in individual tastes.
The point of Killing wanting to attack Libot and antagonize the Cyclops Team is to show how treacherous and disorganized Zeon hierarchy is. As seen in MSG, we've got Zabis fighting each other to the detriment of the war, and their loyal subordinates do the same. In MSG, we've got M'Quve shorthanding Ramba Ral and refusing to supply him merely because Ramba serves under Dozle and M'Quve under Kycilia. Killing is obviously a Gihren man, and an MS Era illustration shows him committing suicide in front of a portrait of Gihren when the war ends. We've seen Zeon officers perform radical actions just to get a message across, such as when M'Quve fired a nuclear missile at the end of the Odessa campaign. Even at the end of war, with the tide turned against them, Killing probably wanted to send a message to the two-timing Side 6 that their assistance to the Federation wouldn't be tolerated. It could also just be a naked abuse of power after his seizure of Granada. You can infer either (or both) of these from the series, so it's not like every detail has to be explained.Saikuba wrote:Granted, but Killing's actions are at the center of the story. If his actions are just there to set up the proper ending, then they are a contrivance. If not, then I would at least expect them to be plausible. While I don't think that Killing should be at the center of the drama or even that his character should be explored to any great degree, but if he really does want to nuke a colony just because (there are probably decent reasons that he could have had, but you have to speculate on them because the series doesn't offer any), it makes the whole situation seem less real to me because that's the type of motivation I expect to see in more cartoony situations rather than a serious look at a war. Even a short line about not being able to accept a colony aiding the federation would have been great.
The reason that I am confused so much about Killing is because as far as I can see the entire point of his existence is to make life horrible for Bernie in particular and also everyone else on Libot. I actually would have preferred that he not be present in the story at all, because then we could assume that there is some miscommunications or difference of opinions in the command structure that lead to the situation. But to make it pretty much the master plan of one person... you have to wonder why.
Co-founder/editor-in-chief, MAHQ
Pronouns: he/him/his
Pronouns: he/him/his
Killing is not the center of the story. He’s a flat character whose actions, like the actions of many in the story, play a role in challenging the motivations of the main characters; in this case, Bernie. You're seeing circumstances of narrative form and flow and declaring it all contrivance because it serves the script. I can only say that's a path with no end and a benchmark no story written could meet. Subject any the story you hold in higher regard than Gundam 0080 to the same criteria and they all fall before it. In fact, subject the best stories ever written and the result comes out the same. This reminds me of a discussion I recently had about Frank Herbert’s Dune where this one fella tried to distill the entire story down to a single event (Jessica's choice to bear a son) that supposedly determined the fate of the entire narrative. It’s a slippery slope that begins placing relevance on plot points from the major to the mundane.
Personally I see this as a failure to take into account off screen actions that may work against your theory while exaggerating those same possible considerations that support it. Perhaps Killing’s plan was to nuke Libot all along. Perhaps circumstances for the losing side of this war pushed Killing into a desperate plan. To go further, why stop at Killing in our script analysis? What about Al? Doesn’t the story CENTER on his first meeting with Bernie and that video recording falling into Zeon hands? What about Chris? Doesn’t the story CENTER on her decision to run into the hangar to pilot the Gundam Alex rather than let it be destroyed? What about the inspection officer at the Libot dock. Doesn’t the story CENTER on his decision to accept Steiner’s emotional ploy? What about the bravery of the Feddie GM pilot at the beginning that prevents the Cyclops Team from their final assault on the shuttle carrying the Alex? Any of a thousand circumstances can be broken into deep discussions of minutiae ultimately irrelevant to the whole story and are being discussed for no better reason than because contrivance was thought to be seen where it is not.
If I had to examine Killing at his most functional as an element of Gundam 0080, he would most obviously represent one human facet of the greater events affecting our main characters. He isn’t contrivance, he’s the embodiment of the reality of the setting as it affects the fictional context; the greater events affecting the individual. He’s one of the human faces for the forces that place the main characters within a tragedy to begin with; just like the Feddies who develop the Alex on Libot, who blame the Zeon for everything bad, who abandon the Riah Forces to the Kaempfer. Killing could have been anyone but the point is not to dwell on Killing’s effect as a flat character that we must know more about. It’s his role as one of several representations of the forces shaping the lives of our characters that puts his existence in a valuable context.
At this point I’m willing to chalk this up to misunderstanding and distaste for unconventional stories. I’ll be the first to admit Gundam 0080 probably deserves better than a mecha anime because it’s written far too well for such; a genre typically made for disposable entertainment that even I enjoy when watching Gundam, Macross and Patlabor. I can confidently say that if a story as well written as Gundam 0080 doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, there is no other Gundam that wouldn’t fall apart just as fast. Don’t even get me started on CCA and it’s deus ex machina from hell
Personally I see this as a failure to take into account off screen actions that may work against your theory while exaggerating those same possible considerations that support it. Perhaps Killing’s plan was to nuke Libot all along. Perhaps circumstances for the losing side of this war pushed Killing into a desperate plan. To go further, why stop at Killing in our script analysis? What about Al? Doesn’t the story CENTER on his first meeting with Bernie and that video recording falling into Zeon hands? What about Chris? Doesn’t the story CENTER on her decision to run into the hangar to pilot the Gundam Alex rather than let it be destroyed? What about the inspection officer at the Libot dock. Doesn’t the story CENTER on his decision to accept Steiner’s emotional ploy? What about the bravery of the Feddie GM pilot at the beginning that prevents the Cyclops Team from their final assault on the shuttle carrying the Alex? Any of a thousand circumstances can be broken into deep discussions of minutiae ultimately irrelevant to the whole story and are being discussed for no better reason than because contrivance was thought to be seen where it is not.
If I had to examine Killing at his most functional as an element of Gundam 0080, he would most obviously represent one human facet of the greater events affecting our main characters. He isn’t contrivance, he’s the embodiment of the reality of the setting as it affects the fictional context; the greater events affecting the individual. He’s one of the human faces for the forces that place the main characters within a tragedy to begin with; just like the Feddies who develop the Alex on Libot, who blame the Zeon for everything bad, who abandon the Riah Forces to the Kaempfer. Killing could have been anyone but the point is not to dwell on Killing’s effect as a flat character that we must know more about. It’s his role as one of several representations of the forces shaping the lives of our characters that puts his existence in a valuable context.
At this point I’m willing to chalk this up to misunderstanding and distaste for unconventional stories. I’ll be the first to admit Gundam 0080 probably deserves better than a mecha anime because it’s written far too well for such; a genre typically made for disposable entertainment that even I enjoy when watching Gundam, Macross and Patlabor. I can confidently say that if a story as well written as Gundam 0080 doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, there is no other Gundam that wouldn’t fall apart just as fast. Don’t even get me started on CCA and it’s deus ex machina from hell
First off, I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that we are misunderstanding each other in this converastion (because we certainly are, as is evident by your assumption that since I have problems with the execution of 0080 that I must ignore the plot foibles of other series), or that I only don't love 0080 because I misunderstand the plot or the genre? The "distaste for unconventional stories" angle leads me to think that you are saying that, and I have no idea where you are getting that from. I actually like 0080. I have no problem with the concept. I just think that there are some parts where the execution is pretty off, and I don't understand why it's so widely held as the best mecha anime ever that you must love and that you have no class if the ending didn't affect you. I know that I'm reading a bit into what you are saying there, and some of this is coming from past conversations I've had both on 0080 and on other series that I like but not nearly enough as the fans of such series would like me to.At this point I’m willing to chalk this up to misunderstanding and distaste for unconventional stories. I’ll be the first to admit Gundam 0080 probably deserves better than a mecha anime because it’s written far too well for such; a genre typically made for disposable entertainment that even I enjoy when watching Gundam, Macross and Patlabor. I can confidently say that if a story as well written as Gundam 0080 doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, there is no other Gundam that wouldn’t fall apart just as fast. Don’t even get me started on CCA and it’s deus ex machina from hell
And by the way:
This is not what I am doing at all. I'm not trying to focus on Kililng but rather the effect his actions have on the story, which is a big one because it more or less determines the course of the last two episodes. Without the imposed nuclear threat there isn't much to wrap up after the cyclops team gets decimated (though I suppose I can concede that the nuclear agenda isn't as arbitrary as it has always felt to me, though I don't think the series does a good job of not making it feel that way. I don't know, maybe that is intentional to create a higher sense of hopelessness in the last episode and thus increase the drama as everything else at that point is tailored to heighten the drama, but to me it seems a bit overmuch).This reminds me of a discussion I recently had about Frank Herbert’s Dune where this one fella tried to distill the entire story down to a single event (Jessica's choice to bear a son) that supposedly determined the fate of the entire narrative. It’s a slippery slope that begins placing relevance on plot points from the major to the mundane.
But enough about that. We aren't getting anywhere and I don't think we will get anywhere.
The one thing that I am wondering about at this point is whether I can walk away and say that I liked the series and thought it was above average as anime go without getting another lecture on how I've been watching the series the wrong way. I guess it's my fault though, since based on experiences on the internet I'm the only person online who would give it anything less than 11/10.
...(though I've yet to find anyone in real life who will watch the series the whole way through with me)
I think I love the last episode most of all similar to the reasons ANN points out.
Even after seeing the Cyclops team get ripped apart, Al is still thinking of war as a game while Bernie starts to realise the gravity of the situation he's in now. However, Bernie decides to listen to Al's foolishness and the series returns to its lighthearted nature as they fix up the Zaku. You can see how cheerful they are as they work together to fix the MS. They even go so far as having Bernie drop Al home and wish he could see Christina again.
The thing about is that Bernie KNEW he was going to die and that's what makes it so sad and emotionally gripping. Even when Al found out the nuclear attack had been halted, he still couldn't tell Bernie and ends up being witness as Bernie is killed in action and a few minutes/hours later, he sees the Gundam pilot was Christina. Talk about a shocker since Christina was practically his idea of a big sis and Bernie his idea of a big brother/father-figure.
Another thing that was put in to emphasize the horrific nature of the turn of events is when the Federation soldier checks to see if Bernie is still alive and says "Nothing left, sir. A pile of hamburger..."
Now tell me that didn't make you feel sad for Bernie to get killed by his growing love-interest and because he listened to a naive little boy who knew no better. Bernie's last speech and clear devotion to fight the Gundam no-matter-what doesn't make it any easier either.
That's not to say you watched the show the wrong way. Everyone's open to their own opinions and the reason why you can't find anyone to physically watch it with you is one of the reasons why ANN listed it as a hidden treasure and why, like ShadowCell said, most only recognise 0080 for its mecha.
Even after seeing the Cyclops team get ripped apart, Al is still thinking of war as a game while Bernie starts to realise the gravity of the situation he's in now. However, Bernie decides to listen to Al's foolishness and the series returns to its lighthearted nature as they fix up the Zaku. You can see how cheerful they are as they work together to fix the MS. They even go so far as having Bernie drop Al home and wish he could see Christina again.
The thing about is that Bernie KNEW he was going to die and that's what makes it so sad and emotionally gripping. Even when Al found out the nuclear attack had been halted, he still couldn't tell Bernie and ends up being witness as Bernie is killed in action and a few minutes/hours later, he sees the Gundam pilot was Christina. Talk about a shocker since Christina was practically his idea of a big sis and Bernie his idea of a big brother/father-figure.
Another thing that was put in to emphasize the horrific nature of the turn of events is when the Federation soldier checks to see if Bernie is still alive and says "Nothing left, sir. A pile of hamburger..."
Now tell me that didn't make you feel sad for Bernie to get killed by his growing love-interest and because he listened to a naive little boy who knew no better. Bernie's last speech and clear devotion to fight the Gundam no-matter-what doesn't make it any easier either.
That's not to say you watched the show the wrong way. Everyone's open to their own opinions and the reason why you can't find anyone to physically watch it with you is one of the reasons why ANN listed it as a hidden treasure and why, like ShadowCell said, most only recognise 0080 for its mecha.
Yeah, you're definitely bringing in baggage from something else, which I certainly can't speak to. I really can't offer any more than my word that I'm not trying to insult or anger you intentionally. Yes, I do believe it is a misunderstanding, in some ways mutual and not in others. No, my analogy is not a personal swing at you, only an attempt to apply the same methodology to critiquing Gundam 0080 as you would any other Gundam because the plot in this anime is by far stronger than that written in any other Gundam I've ever seen (perhaps even any anime I've seen). Really, I'm at a loss when it comes to this "Killing" angle and I'm trying hard to rationalize it. It's like someone saying to me: "Damn, Mr. March, I really like Macross but why the hell was Claudia so central to the character arch of Hikaru when she told him about Misa?" I'm honestly and truly dumbfounded by the statement and can't grasp why one disparate plot point should suddenly be given such monumental importance within the context of the story. And then to label it as contrivance on top of that, I mean...what can I say?Saikuba wrote:First off, I don't understand what you are saying here.
*snip*
But enough about that. We aren't getting anywhere and I don't think we will get anywhere.
The one thing that I am wondering about at this point is whether I can walk away and say that I liked the series and thought it was above average as anime go without getting another lecture on how I've been watching the series the wrong way. I guess it's my fault though, since based on experiences on the internet I'm the only person online who would give it anything less than 11/10.
...(though I've yet to find anyone in real life who will watch the series the whole way through with me)
For my part, I think I will say this much: this is just a discussion so far and I'm having a good time talking about it. I certainly don't think any less of you because you don't bow down to Gundam 0080 like it's a religion. Nor is my goal some silliness to make you do so. Gundam 0080 is very unconventional and it's obviously not to your tastes in the degree that it is to mine. That's all. No modus operandi or ulterior motive. Not everyone is a death-dealing fanboy that screams "No prisoners!" like Lawrence of Arabia when a difference of opinion arises. I'm (hopefully) safe to assume that kind of fan is what you've encountered in the past. And that's fair enough.
Anyway, back to our original thread, currently in progress
Oh, I disagree with that view. Aside from seeing the Cyclops Team killed off one by one, he also watched as the body of a child got dug out of the rubble; given his reaction, he practically realised that the war he so glorified was so merciless that even an innocent boy can be killed. After that, he became utterly horrified seeing his school turned to nothing but burnt rocks, practically frantic knowing full well that his friends could very well be dead like that child he saw. Luckily, no one was at the school at that time, and was in tears when he found his buddies were still alive and as naive as ever. So at that point, Al actually saw war for what it really is, and no longer saw it as something playful and fun.jam! wrote: Even after seeing the Cyclops team get ripped apart, Al is still thinking of war as a game while Bernie starts to realise the gravity of the situation he's in now. However, Bernie decides to listen to Al's foolishness and the series returns to its lighthearted nature as they fix up the Zaku. You can see how cheerful they are as they work together to fix the MS.
It's not foolishness that made Al beg for Bernie to fight the Alex, it was desperation for the sake of his very home that eventually got the two of them repairing the Zaku and preparing to fight the Alex. The whole scene with the two repairing the Zaku had everything to do with the two just being together than any sort of game, which made the scene rather touching and innocent. I suppose if you wanted to point out an area that could be considered foolish, it'd be in putting his hopes on Bernie saving the whole colony.
So, really, as the ANN article pointed out, 0080 could've gone with the cop out ending and simply left it with Al learning his lesson about war, since he very well was witness to its grizzly effects, yet instead decide to continue this angle further, and flat out traumatize the boy at the end. What happened right there was just plain unfair, and something no person should ever see let along a young boy, and that was something that 0080 drove across in spades. It's why as sad as the ending is, I found the delivery to be very good and not contriving whatsoever. Contrivance is more like the Feds being lax in their security and allowing a Zeon fanatic steal a nuclear armed Gundam while making a big huge giant hour long speech on front of a bunch of witnesses.
As far as 0080 goes, I think it's the perfect way to end a series that was as brutal as it was innocent in its theme.-
wing zero alpha
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Hm. I myself have some mixed feelings about Gundam 0080. On one hand, I liked the animation, appreciated the switch from the usual Gundam boy storylines to the more hypothetically "Down to Earth" tones (I also agree with the poster about Tomino's methods), and all Izubuchi's mecha revamps; he even turned a hideous mech like the Gogg and made a neat design out of it. Oh yeah, and Megumi Hayashibara in the star role, that's always a winner for me.
On the other hand though, I just could never get into the characters myself. That's not to say they were horrible, just not my thing. Al's naivette on war at the beginning was perfectly fitting for the turnout he was undoubtably going to receive, Bernie being a rookie draftee that was dragged in the middle of a losing war was a good switch from the usual Zeon ace (here's looking at you Gato), and although I question the decision to put a person like Chris as the test pilot for a Gundam that was made for Amuro Ray, she played the soldier girl next door angle pretty well. I guess my problem here is that from the start of the series I knew what was going to turn out at the end just from the initial build ups: I knew Al was going to learn war wasn't a video game from the way he worshipped it, and chances were Bernie was going to die due to being a rookie and the brotherly friendship he was gaining with Al, and in Gundam fashion the Cyclops Team were all going to die out at some point. About the only thing that I figured would happen that didn't was Chris getting killed to add further trauma to Al, but it looked like the revelation that she was the Gundam pilot was good enough.
That said, I thought the ending came together beautifully, and I actually applauded at the scene where the Gundam and Zaku were rushing at each other with Al running to stop them since the nuke attack was called off; that was superbly done. But on the other side, I didn't feel any real emotion for Bernie dying, and I actually laughed at the hamburger comment, but then it takes a lot to draw me into an emotional state over fiction.
Other than all that, about the only real problem I had with it was how the Zeon were depicted (namely the Nazification) and how much ass they were kicking. I'm usually for the "good guys in the evil empire" angle to a story, and I also know there's a certain appeal to using World War II themes in modernistic/futuristic stories, but I thought the writers were going overboard with all the Nazi Germany inspirations (from the German names like Graf Zeppelin and Jaeger to the weapons, equipment and character designs) while at the same time making more sympathetic characters for the Zeons. That didn't really feel right. Fortunately, there was Colonel Killing to remind us who the real villains were.
At the same time I had some problems with how "kickass" the Zeons were being shown: I loved the attack on the Arctic base, but I thought the Side 6 attacks were so one sided it was bothersome. I wouldn't have minded the Zeons winning over and over as much if the Feddies were shown to be doing damage themselves; this was especially annoying with the Kampher attack and how easily it took out the Scarlet Team with all of its advanced MS (they could have at least tried to dodge the big blue mobile suit's attacks).
All in all I agree with the general assessment on Gundam 0080; personally it's not my favorite Gundam series (that's reserved for Turn A), and the storyline wasn't my kind of thing, but I think it accomplished what it set out to do and then some. Certainly a true classic.
On a side note, since this is an 0080 thread, did anyone else scratch their head when the Federation soldier confronted Bernie on the right seasons in Sydney? Last I checked Sydney was wiped off the face of the Earth (literally), so either the guard was a moron or he somehow wasn't informed about Operation British.
On the other hand though, I just could never get into the characters myself. That's not to say they were horrible, just not my thing. Al's naivette on war at the beginning was perfectly fitting for the turnout he was undoubtably going to receive, Bernie being a rookie draftee that was dragged in the middle of a losing war was a good switch from the usual Zeon ace (here's looking at you Gato), and although I question the decision to put a person like Chris as the test pilot for a Gundam that was made for Amuro Ray, she played the soldier girl next door angle pretty well. I guess my problem here is that from the start of the series I knew what was going to turn out at the end just from the initial build ups: I knew Al was going to learn war wasn't a video game from the way he worshipped it, and chances were Bernie was going to die due to being a rookie and the brotherly friendship he was gaining with Al, and in Gundam fashion the Cyclops Team were all going to die out at some point. About the only thing that I figured would happen that didn't was Chris getting killed to add further trauma to Al, but it looked like the revelation that she was the Gundam pilot was good enough.
That said, I thought the ending came together beautifully, and I actually applauded at the scene where the Gundam and Zaku were rushing at each other with Al running to stop them since the nuke attack was called off; that was superbly done. But on the other side, I didn't feel any real emotion for Bernie dying, and I actually laughed at the hamburger comment, but then it takes a lot to draw me into an emotional state over fiction.
Other than all that, about the only real problem I had with it was how the Zeon were depicted (namely the Nazification) and how much ass they were kicking. I'm usually for the "good guys in the evil empire" angle to a story, and I also know there's a certain appeal to using World War II themes in modernistic/futuristic stories, but I thought the writers were going overboard with all the Nazi Germany inspirations (from the German names like Graf Zeppelin and Jaeger to the weapons, equipment and character designs) while at the same time making more sympathetic characters for the Zeons. That didn't really feel right. Fortunately, there was Colonel Killing to remind us who the real villains were.
At the same time I had some problems with how "kickass" the Zeons were being shown: I loved the attack on the Arctic base, but I thought the Side 6 attacks were so one sided it was bothersome. I wouldn't have minded the Zeons winning over and over as much if the Feddies were shown to be doing damage themselves; this was especially annoying with the Kampher attack and how easily it took out the Scarlet Team with all of its advanced MS (they could have at least tried to dodge the big blue mobile suit's attacks).
All in all I agree with the general assessment on Gundam 0080; personally it's not my favorite Gundam series (that's reserved for Turn A), and the storyline wasn't my kind of thing, but I think it accomplished what it set out to do and then some. Certainly a true classic.
On a side note, since this is an 0080 thread, did anyone else scratch their head when the Federation soldier confronted Bernie on the right seasons in Sydney? Last I checked Sydney was wiped off the face of the Earth (literally), so either the guard was a moron or he somehow wasn't informed about Operation British.
I'll agree about the Nazification issue, as 0080 is the first Gundam series to be guilty of this trend. But I really don't see what's "wrong" with having sympathetic Zeon. It's not as if MSG didn't have sympathetic Zeons like Ramba Ral or Cucuruz Doan, or those guys who rescue that refugee mother and her son. What makes the characters of the Cyclops Team any different from those?wing zero alpha wrote:Other than all that, about the only real problem I had with it was how the Zeon were depicted (namely the Nazification) and how much ass they were kicking. I'm usually for the "good guys in the evil empire" angle to a story, and I also know there's a certain appeal to using World War II themes in modernistic/futuristic stories, but I thought the writers were going overboard with all the Nazi Germany inspirations (from the German names like Graf Zeppelin and Jaeger to the weapons, equipment and character designs) while at the same time making more sympathetic characters for the Zeons. That didn't really feel right. Fortunately, there was Colonel Killing to remind us who the real villains were.
One side's grunts will always have its ass handed to it - that's just the way it is in Gundam. I could believe up to a certain point that the Federation pilots just suck - many of them have just recently switched to being MS pilots and don't have the same experience that Zeon pilots do.wing zero alpha wrote:At the same time I had some problems with how "kickass" the Zeons were being shown: I loved the attack on the Arctic base, but I thought the Side 6 attacks were so one sided it was bothersome. I wouldn't have minded the Zeons winning over and over as much if the Feddies were shown to be doing damage themselves; this was especially annoying with the Kampher attack and how easily it took out the Scarlet Team with all of its advanced MS (they could have at least tried to dodge the big blue mobile suit's attacks).
Ahh, but it wasn't (at least when 0080 was made). From what I recall, I don't think it had been set in stone in 1989 where exactly the Operation British colony hit on Earth. It's not until episode 1 of 0083 that it's explicitly mentioned (and shown) in animation to be Sydney. Before that, MSG's depiction of it was just some random major city.wing zero alpha wrote:On a side note, since this is an 0080 thread, did anyone else scratch their head when the Federation soldier confronted Bernie on the right seasons in Sydney? Last I checked Sydney was wiped off the face of the Earth (literally), so either the guard was a moron or he somehow wasn't informed about Operation British.
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wing zero alpha
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Actually, I have no problems with good guys in Zeon either; in fact, I'm always for otherwise "good" characters being part of the bad guys, as it balances the story out more. My problem, and this is more from being a World War II nut, is from the depiction of all the Zeon characters except Killing as sympathetic while at the same time trying to establish them as "space nazis". Granted, it's not as bad as the later Gundam series, but it just doesn't feel right. To me it's like sticking an otherwise morale protagonist in a Schutzstaffel uniform and expecting him to still be taken as a good guy in spite of the real life implications, which was a major problem I had with MS IGLOO on many occasions.Chris wrote:I'll agree about the Nazification issue, as 0080 is the first Gundam series to be guilty of this trend. But I really don't see what's "wrong" with having sympathetic Zeon. It's not as if MSG didn't have sympathetic Zeons like Ramba Ral or Cucuruz Doan, or those guys who rescue that refugee mother and her son. What makes the characters of the Cyclops Team any different from those?
Heh, then again, it cracks me up thinking that the writers were trying to make a stereotype Russian boozer (Kaminsky) and a hispanic knife fanatic (Ramirez) as otherwise misunderstood protagonists, even more so that they succeeded in the end.
Except out of the whole of Gundam 0080, I don't recall any big Federation kills aside from Andy being killed off in the first battle, and even then Steiner returned fire and killed off the oppressors easily. It's one thing to have sucky pilots, it's quite another to have clearly one sided battles, which is something I remember you faulting different Gundam series for in your reviews. The distraction battle to Side 6 was pretty much a Zeon slideshow with the animators going to lengths to make the Rick Dom II and the Gelgoog Jaeger look larger than life. Then the Kampher was literally shooting the GM Sniper IIs, Guncannon MP Types and GM Commands out of the air without its pilot breaking a sweat (in fact if I remember correctly, he was using a close-combat shotgun to do it initally), and it took a sneak attack from the Gundam Alex to bring him down.One side's grunts will always have its ass handed to it - that's just the way it is in Gundam. I could believe up to a certain point that the Federation pilots just suck - many of them have just recently switched to being MS pilots and don't have the same experience that Zeon pilots do.
That said, I don't think it would have killed any of the writers or animation staff to show some of the Fed suits during the Side 6 battle scoring victories; it's not like the Zeon didn't have MS to spare with the Graf Zeppelin's carrying capacity plus its two Musai escorts. And much more, it wouldn't have been bad either to have Kaminsky have some difficulty with the Scarlet Team; I don't mind that he eradicated them, I just think it would have been better if he at least had to go to an effort to do it.
Hm, that could be the problem, and certainly not a first for Gundam. I wonder if Mark has any specifics on that.Ahh, but it wasn't (at least when 0080 was made). From what I recall, I don't think it had been set in stone in 1989 where exactly the Operation British colony hit on Earth. It's not until episode 1 of 0083 that it's explicitly mentioned (and shown) in animation to be Sydney. Before that, MSG's depiction of it was just some random major city.
Last edited by wing zero alpha on Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Granted I'm no expert, but I always did get the impression the Feddies were lesser pilots, generally speaking. They were brave indeed and ultimately better equipped for most of the OYW, but the Zeon's always seemed more experienced/accomplished mobile suit pilots.
Honestly, I never saw the german visualization and nomenclature used for the Zeons in Gundam 0080 as anything but a stylistic choice and an obvious reference to WWII era militaries. I don't see this whole Nazi angle with gulags, ethnic cleansing and master race stuff in the Zeons of Gundam 0080. If there's a political angle, I think more is being read into it that is there. I do see typical japanese fascination with all things german/french, just as I do in most anime.
A comment on the mecha battles, I think the idea is to show Zeons as the aggressors more in Gundam 0080 and then only slowly reveal the Federation's own indiscretions as the story really starts to develop and challenge the viewer. But I will agree the battles seem a little lopsided. But as noted, this is a problem in a lot of Gundam and to a certain extent, mecha anime in general.
I will say, Gundam 0080 did a REALLY good job capturing scale in the mecha battles, something I've not seen done well outside of Macross Plus or Neon Genesis Evangelion. I think a lot of mecha anime has a tendancy to forget how important scale is when animating giant robots, especially fast moving, human-like movements when created in the animated medium. It's so easy to just look at certain mecha sequences and feel like the scale has been sucked out and you could just as easily be watching human sized robots or grunts in exoskeleton armors like the Master Chief. I guess that's why when it comes to anime, the less obviously human looking the mecha, the better the suspension of disbelief.
Ahem, anyway...
Honestly, I never saw the german visualization and nomenclature used for the Zeons in Gundam 0080 as anything but a stylistic choice and an obvious reference to WWII era militaries. I don't see this whole Nazi angle with gulags, ethnic cleansing and master race stuff in the Zeons of Gundam 0080. If there's a political angle, I think more is being read into it that is there. I do see typical japanese fascination with all things german/french, just as I do in most anime.
A comment on the mecha battles, I think the idea is to show Zeons as the aggressors more in Gundam 0080 and then only slowly reveal the Federation's own indiscretions as the story really starts to develop and challenge the viewer. But I will agree the battles seem a little lopsided. But as noted, this is a problem in a lot of Gundam and to a certain extent, mecha anime in general.
I will say, Gundam 0080 did a REALLY good job capturing scale in the mecha battles, something I've not seen done well outside of Macross Plus or Neon Genesis Evangelion. I think a lot of mecha anime has a tendancy to forget how important scale is when animating giant robots, especially fast moving, human-like movements when created in the animated medium. It's so easy to just look at certain mecha sequences and feel like the scale has been sucked out and you could just as easily be watching human sized robots or grunts in exoskeleton armors like the Master Chief. I guess that's why when it comes to anime, the less obviously human looking the mecha, the better the suspension of disbelief.
Ahem, anyway...
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Well, there was also the Fascism thing, and in the place of master race stuff, the Zabis did keep spouting about Spacenoid superiority. Still, I think they're probably a little more like WWII era Italy or Japan in actuallity, in that they are a fascist, nationalistic state with obvious racial superiority issues.MrMarch wrote:Honestly, I never saw the german visualization and nomenclature used for the Zeons in Gundam 0080 as anything but a stylistic choice and an obvious reference to WWII era militaries. I don't see this whole Nazi angle with gulags, ethnic cleansing and master race stuff in the Zeons of Gundam 0080. If there's a political angle, I think more is being read into it that is there. I do see typical japanese fascination with all things german/french, just as I do in most anime.
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wing zero alpha
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Except that after Operation Odessa and the Jaburo campaigns, Zeon began losing its experienced pilots, with the Battle of Solomon being the straw that broke the camel's back. This is the reason why that during A Bao A Qu, the Gelgoog, despite being the most advanced production MS fielded, was largely ineffective against the Federation's GMs. So really I wouldn't say Federation pilots are lesser pilots, even at that point where Zeon still had some vets and aces still going for them (since IIRC that battle happened either before or shortly after Solomon).MrMarch wrote:Granted I'm no expert, but I always did get the impression the Feddies were lesser pilots, generally speaking. They were brave indeed and ultimately better equipped for most of the OYW, but the Zeon's always seemed more experienced/accomplished mobile suit pilots.
For the record, a gulag is a Soviet prison, not German.Honestly, I never saw the german visualization and nomenclature used for the Zeons in Gundam 0080 as anything but a stylistic choice and an obvious reference to WWII era militaries. I don't see this whole Nazi angle with gulags, ethnic cleansing and master race stuff in the Zeons of Gundam 0080. If there's a political angle, I think more is being read into it that is there. I do see typical japanese fascination with all things german/french, just as I do in most anime.
As for the Nazi referencing, if Gundam 0080's Zeon was a standalone faction from the rest of UC, I could see what you're talking about. But it's not. Although the characters present are sympathetic and good people, they're still part of the "evil empire" of Gundam, one that loves dropping colonies and nuking things thanks to M'quive and Killing, as well as being run by a tyrannical government. That's why I really didn't appreciate the Nazification; Zeon was bad enough before the "space Nazis" theme was established, and it's all the more worse with certain Gundam writers (not necessarily those on 0080 thank god) trying to establish Zeon as the "true" protagonist faction of the One Year War.Sorry, but if a series like 0083 can have mecha battles that depict the Federation, while still getting their asses kicked in the grand scheme of things, at least doing damage and keeping it "balanced", then 0080 has no excuse. As well, people love to hit up Wing, SEED and Destiny for having one sided battles, and while I'm not saying you're one of them March, I don't think 0080 should be given a Get Out of Jail Free card because "it's a problem with Gundam and mecha anime in general." Otherwise we might as well excuse the problem "in general."A comment on the mecha battles, I think the idea is to show Zeons as the aggressors more in Gundam 0080 and then only slowly reveal the Federation's own indiscretions as the story really starts to develop and challenge the viewer. But I will agree the battles seem a little lopsided. But as noted, this is a problem in a lot of Gundam and to a certain extent, mecha anime in general.
I'll give you that one. Despite my opinions, the battle sequences in Gundam 0080 were spot on for the most part. Not bad for a series that wasn't concentrating on battle sequences over the story like most Gundam series do.I will say, Gundam 0080 did a REALLY good job capturing scale in the mecha battles, something I've not seen done well outside of Macross Plus or Neon Genesis Evangelion. I think a lot of mecha anime has a tendancy to forget how important scale is when animating giant robots, especially fast moving, human-like movements when created in the animated medium. It's so easy to just look at certain mecha sequences and feel like the scale has been sucked out and you could just as easily be watching human sized robots or grunts in exoskeleton armors like the Master Chief. I guess that's why when it comes to anime, the less obviously human looking the mecha, the better the suspension of disbelief.
Why do some cringe over the nazification of the Zeon over the years during the serializations that followed First Gundam (0079)?
I mean, Gihren Zabi was referred to as the herald of Hitler by his own father (or something to that respect) and I really think that's where the issue of Zeon=Nazi began to develop and the OVAs like 0080 and MS Igloo just took it to the next level. That's not even considering the myriad of comparisons which may be drawn between the OYW and WWII. I just don't see the issue since it seems to be pop up a lot with fans and I especially don't see how it relates to 0080 because unlike MS Igloo which made the Nazification very blatant, 0080 hardly does save for a few names and circumstances which are not very crucial to the storyline imo.
While we're talking about the one-sided battles, remember that when 0080 was made these Zeon MS were brand-new machines and not simply retcons of the designs shown previously. That may serve to explain why the Gelgoog Jaeger, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer practically trounce the Federation guarding forces. It's also important to consider that the pilots placed at colony garrisons are hardly going to have the combat training/experience as the other Federation pilots on the frontline especially when they're guarding in a neutral zone. Looking at the Mahq profiles for the Federation MS and for the Gray Phantom itself, it's really unlikely the pilots of the GM Space Commands (designed for colony defence) or the Scarlet Team itself had much combat experience whereas we know that the pilots given the Gelgoog Jaeger, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer would've been through quite a lot. Looking at it that way, sure the battle is one-sided but understandable.
It's the same reason why A Baoa Qu fell to a diminished Federation space force...the Fed pilots were in worse or equal machines but were better at using them. The tables were simply turned at Side 6 Libot colony.
I mean, Gihren Zabi was referred to as the herald of Hitler by his own father (or something to that respect) and I really think that's where the issue of Zeon=Nazi began to develop and the OVAs like 0080 and MS Igloo just took it to the next level. That's not even considering the myriad of comparisons which may be drawn between the OYW and WWII. I just don't see the issue since it seems to be pop up a lot with fans and I especially don't see how it relates to 0080 because unlike MS Igloo which made the Nazification very blatant, 0080 hardly does save for a few names and circumstances which are not very crucial to the storyline imo.
While we're talking about the one-sided battles, remember that when 0080 was made these Zeon MS were brand-new machines and not simply retcons of the designs shown previously. That may serve to explain why the Gelgoog Jaeger, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer practically trounce the Federation guarding forces. It's also important to consider that the pilots placed at colony garrisons are hardly going to have the combat training/experience as the other Federation pilots on the frontline especially when they're guarding in a neutral zone. Looking at the Mahq profiles for the Federation MS and for the Gray Phantom itself, it's really unlikely the pilots of the GM Space Commands (designed for colony defence) or the Scarlet Team itself had much combat experience whereas we know that the pilots given the Gelgoog Jaeger, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer would've been through quite a lot. Looking at it that way, sure the battle is one-sided but understandable.
It's the same reason why A Baoa Qu fell to a diminished Federation space force...the Fed pilots were in worse or equal machines but were better at using them. The tables were simply turned at Side 6 Libot colony.
I think it's become an overall kind of thing. The Nazi/WWII comparisons have always been there, you're right about that, but in MSG and Zeta and whatnot, they were more or less subtle. 0080 was really the first show to come out and obviously base things on the Nazi's, be it elements of the MS-06FZ or a guy like Captain Von Helsing who looks ready to invade Poland. Granted, 0080 isn't as blatant as the more recent MS IGLOO, but I still think they do go a bit further with the Zeon/Nazi thing than they really needed too.jam! wrote:Why do some cringe over the nazification of the Zeon over the years during the serializations that followed First Gundam (0079)?
I mean, Gihren Zabi was referred to as the herald of Hitler by his own father (or something to that respect) and I really think that's where the issue of Zeon=Nazi began to develop and the OVAs like 0080 and MS Igloo just took it to the next level. That's not even considering the myriad of comparisons which may be drawn between the OYW and WWII. I just don't see the issue since it seems to be pop up a lot with fans and I especially don't see how it relates to 0080 because unlike MS Igloo which made the Nazification very blatant, 0080 hardly does save for a few names and circumstances which are not very crucial to the storyline imo.
An assortment of errors in that part I quoted. First, when 0080 was made, every MS except for the Kampfer and Alex was ment to be a revamped version of the original MSG or MSV designs, they were only made into new, original models after the series had been created. Second, you assume that the Zeon pilots we see have "been through quite a lot" when that's not exactly true. We know Zeon was grabing anyone who could fly a MS (Bernie), and while some of the pilots are clearly experianced (Those Jager pilots, for example), the majority of Zeon's pilots by that time in the war were becoming of lower and lower quality, even those given high performance MS (Bernie in the Zaku II Kai, those Gelgoog pilots at A Baoa Qu).jam! wrote:While we're talking about the one-sided battles, remember that when 0080 was made these Zeon MS were brand-new machines and not simply retcons of the designs shown previously. That may serve to explain why the Gelgoog Jaeger, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer practically trounce the Federation guarding forces. It's also important to consider that the pilots placed at colony garrisons are hardly going to have the combat training/experience as the other Federation pilots on the frontline especially when they're guarding in a neutral zone. Looking at the Mahq profiles for the Federation MS and for the Gray Phantom itself, it's really unlikely the pilots of the GM Space Commands (designed for colony defence) or the Scarlet Team itself had much combat experience whereas we know that the pilots given the Gelgoog Jaeger, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer would've been through quite a lot. Looking at it that way, sure the battle is one-sided but understandable.
It's the same reason why A Baoa Qu fell to a diminished Federation space force...the Fed pilots were in worse or equal machines but were better at using them. The tables were simply turned at Side 6 Libot colony.
Also, while not exactly going with this topic, but your comments on A Baoa Qu are wrong. The Federation pilots were mostly in GM's, which were better than Zeon's two most common MS, the Zaku II and Rick Dom, and so they'd usually have the better MS in that battle.
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Well, as you said and I implied, the 'Nazification' in 0080 is mostly in appearance and a few names...really doesn't impact the series or it's meaning in anyway. The Zaku II kai could've been modelled after George Washington and the Zeons likened to the American colonial army and it wouldn't have changed the main message of the anime. I don't think so at least.
My mistake about the origins of the MS, I got it mixed up but my point remains that the Zeon were using high-performance suits and yes, they were grabbing anyone who could pilot but as I intended to imply, their remaining seasoned pilots were given the best of equipment i.e. the Jaeger pilots, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer. That's why even when things were looking bad, the Zeong was reserved for Char and not for whoever may have newtype potential. That said, it further explains why the Federation guard at Libot had a difficult time.
I'm not sure about the numbers at A Baoa Qu but weren't there a lot of Gelgoogs there? You're right that the GM is better in space than the Zaku II and Rick Dom but I was referring to the Gelgoog.
My mistake about the origins of the MS, I got it mixed up but my point remains that the Zeon were using high-performance suits and yes, they were grabbing anyone who could pilot but as I intended to imply, their remaining seasoned pilots were given the best of equipment i.e. the Jaeger pilots, Rick Dom 2 and Kaempfer. That's why even when things were looking bad, the Zeong was reserved for Char and not for whoever may have newtype potential. That said, it further explains why the Federation guard at Libot had a difficult time.
I'm not sure about the numbers at A Baoa Qu but weren't there a lot of Gelgoogs there? You're right that the GM is better in space than the Zaku II and Rick Dom but I was referring to the Gelgoog.
As far as I'm concerned, I criticize mecha battles based on how they're depicted. 0080 doesn't get a free pass because it doesn't need one. I really wouldn't call the battles "one-sided" because even though the Cyclops Team does well, every one of them ends up dead by the end of the series. Whether it's in man-to-man or suit-to-suit combat, they're not invincible. And in the Kampfer fight, for all the cool moves Misha had, he got taken down like nothing by the Alex's machine cannons. That's a far cry from Kira Yamato blowing away tons of things in DESTINY without so much as suffering a scratch.wing zero alpha wrote:Sorry, but if a series like 0083 can have mecha battles that depict the Federation, while still getting their asses kicked in the grand scheme of things, at least doing damage and keeping it "balanced", then 0080 has no excuse. As well, people love to hit up Wing, SEED and Destiny for having one sided battles, and while I'm not saying you're one of them March, I don't think 0080 should be given a Get Out of Jail Free card because "it's a problem with Gundam and mecha anime in general." Otherwise we might as well excuse the problem "in general."
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wing zero alpha
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And yet up until the Alex came around and pulled its surprise attack, Kaminsky was doing exactly what Kira Yamato does on a regular basis. Again, my point isn't the fact Kaminsky won that fight with the Scarlet Team, it's the fact he did it without even putting much of an effort into it. It was more than a little lopsided, and even if he did get killed in the end, it was more or less a twist of bad luck and nothing really on Chris' skill level as a pilot nor Kaminsky being exhausted from the battle. As far as I'm concerned, one-sided battles are one-sided battles; you don't just fault one series for it and then turn around and dismiss it from another because you like that one more.Chris wrote:As far as I'm concerned, I criticize mecha battles based on how they're depicted. 0080 doesn't get a free pass because it doesn't need one. I really wouldn't call the battles "one-sided" because even though the Cyclops Team does well, every one of them ends up dead by the end of the series. Whether it's in man-to-man or suit-to-suit combat, they're not invincible. And in the Kampfer fight, for all the cool moves Misha had, he got taken down like nothing by the Alex's machine cannons. That's a far cry from Kira Yamato blowing away tons of things in DESTINY without so much as suffering a scratch.
Besides, it wasn't just Kaminsky's fight, you also have the Arctic base infiltration and the battle of Side 6 as I've highlighted before. The former I can dismiss because the infiltrators were Zeon special forces and they had the drop on the Feds, but the Side 6 battle I can't because it was pretty blatant.