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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:57 am 
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Newtype Emo Guy
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Yeah, it does demonstrate how the Salamis are launched. Another thing that does make me wonder if it's official in this regard, considering this provides more for the background of the series.


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:58 am 
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NewtypeS3 wrote:
Yeah, it does demonstrate how the Salamis are launched. Another thing that does make me wonder if it's official in this regard, considering this provides more for the background of the series.


It probably doesn't, and either way it's not necessary since IGLOO episode 4 shows how a Salamis launches into space.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:06 am 
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Kiff, we have a conundrum...

As mentioned before, conflicting filmed works have been a problem ever since the old MSG Movies, however, the MSG TV show and movies have an almost identical ending. The Zeta Gundam TV series and a New Translation, however, have two completely different endings, the latter possibly leading the continuity into a totally different direction than the TV series (though how much of a different direction is debatable.) Now my question is this:

A New Translation might have negated or at least dramatically changed the First Neo Zeon War, yet according to the filmed works rule, the units in sentinel are pretty much accounted for in terms of officiality thanks to the cameo appearance of the Gaza E...

...but the original TV series is considered the more "official" version of events...

...and the better half of Sentinel happens to take place during the First Neo Zeon War (which was, for most intensive purposes, negated by ANT, which contained the cameo of the Gaza E,) and the FNZW aggressors, the Neo Zeon forces, actually played a role in Sentinel...

...might this affect it's magical officializing powers in this particular case? Or is it so minute of a detail that, as far as Sunrise is concerned; "It was 'there' during the TV series, as in resting in the same hanger during that particular point in time, it's just never shown because, well, it hadn't even been concieved yet!"

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:25 am 
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To answer that question:

Quote:
It's possible that the English-speaking fandom is just being too absolutist about this. There hasn't been a single official Gundam continuity in twenty-five years, since the original Gundam TV series and its movie adaptations contradict each other in a bunch of minor details. And yet the decades of sequels that followed have happily referenced both versions of the original story, without needing to choose one over the other.

I'd suggest taking the same view of the Zeta Gundam series versus the New Translation movies. Essentially, we now have two paths to choose from; one that goes from the Zeta TV series to Char's Counterattack by way of Gundam ZZ, and the other that goes directly from the Zeta movies to Char's Counterattack. Both versions of the story are canonical or official or whatever you want to call it, and you can reference one or the other or a little bit of both, as you prefer.

This sort of thing seems to happen with a lot of anime and manga stories (such as Yamato, Macross, the Battle Angel series, et cetera). And of course, Yoshiyuki Tomino does this kind of thing all the time; his Mobile Suit Gundam novels are completely different from the animated story, his Zeta novels are different from both the TV series and the movies, and he wrote two different Char's Counterattack novelizations which both vary from the movie, and then wrote a Gundam Evolve episode which contradicts all three versions of Char's Counterattack. If the creators have no use for continuity, why should the fans tie themselves in knots?

-- Mark


According to Mark, neither movie nor TV series is considered 'more canon' than the other. There is no truly absolute timeline when it comes to official animated sources, so it all comes down to preference.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:01 am 
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Apparently I'm not the only one who's fully caught on to this, as everyone here seems to have a totally different attitude about that. :shock:

I understand that nothing is truely "canon," and that there isn't a such thing as a permanent, absolute timeline anymore, but it's no arguement that the Zeta Gundam TV series seems to be the most referanced, (I guess is how you would put it,) in terms of what leads to what in most timelines/continuity, be they officially recognised material or not. Personally, I "prefer" that Gundam publications like AOZ and Sentinel (even Meaningless War: 0091, which is a doujin that I have not even read, just seems interesting...) and even stories that happen to be game material like The Midnight Fenrir and Thoroughbred to have "happened", all in my own little version of UC continuity that I wish to follow in my head. My question is more one out of curiosity of what Sunrise themselves think, as not everything is official to them, and that's what was the point of my post, as what seems to be the main point of the topic.

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Last edited by J-Lead on Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:08 am 
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Aside from the fact that this is the first post I've seen where Mark put his foot down on the matter, different attitudes, perhaps, and yet within the context of this topic, it's the most sensible of them all. Given that anything animated is official, and given discrepancies within animation itself, it works well for me.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:41 am 
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Therefore, 'officiality' is relative.

Seriously, I still can't understand why the canonicity of fictional material should matter at all.


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:45 am 
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If the whole fan preferance way is followed in full diligence, games like Gundam vs Zeta Gundam and Encounters in Space would then seem to be the most fan relevent games out there, no matter how much Sunrise sees it as "unofficial." GVZG pretty much gives you many different options for the outcome of the Grypps war and it's many fighting soldiers. EIS gives you a choice between the Movie and TV versions of the story, and also gives you a chance to vary the Thoroughbred events. :P

Recon 5 wrote:
Seriously, I still can't understand why the canonicity of fictional material should matter at all.


To be honest, it doesn't really, as any form of material, official or not, is still enjoyable (I liked Lost War Chronicles, after all, despite a few skepticisms here and there.) But the topic seemed to be focused on what Sunrise approves as official, and sometimes I just get curious. :P

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:02 am 
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Well, it seems pretty clear that Sunrise doesn't find anything official unless it is animated. And it would seem logical that Sunrise would consider the series more official than the movies, just because they obviously haven't taken Gundam ZZ out of the official list, and things like that. But, like Mark said, it seems to be a mix of both. Because if something is seem in the movies that doesn't contradict the series, it seems like that would also be considered official. The only real iffy thing is whether or not shorts are considered official, such as the Astray shorts or the Gundam Unicorn promo. And since the "not official unless it's animated" thing is before the time of the Astray manga, or Advance of Zeta, or the Evolves (if I recall the date of that correctly), we don't have clear answers for that. Would be nice to have that explicated by Sunrise, but it may never happen, and the fans will have to live with that.

However, like what's been said in this thread, official/canon is what you make it. It seems really easy to consider only Tomino's UC to be canon for Universal Century. Makes things pretty simple, and less contradictory. However, then you're missing a lot of things. So another way to look at it is all animated UC. Then there's tons of novels, manga, games, and whatnot to add as you wish. Each fan must make their own line of canon to match themselves, as corny as that sounds. I pick-and-choose what I consider to be canon with novels and stuff. Some things I think make sense, and others I think are too far fetched or don't fit in tightly enough. But just because I don't consider it canon or whatnot doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it or want to learn about it. Fans don't have to limit themselves to what's canon and what's not. Make your own canon, but don't limit yourself to that.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:47 am 
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Okay, let me ask everyone why they think that the Zeta Gundam movies change the continuitiy of Gundam from that point onward? It doesn't. Tomino stated himself that it was NOT meant as a replacement for the series, but rather an alternative telling of it. People REALLY need to get this into their heads.


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:02 pm 
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I certainly don't mean to speak for everyone, but the sentiment I've gotten regarding the Zeta movies is that the people who hated ZZ for being goofy, silly, and occasionally nonsensical WANT the movies to de-canonize ZZ, just so they can feel it is officially "under the rug", as they say.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:22 pm 
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
I certainly don't mean to speak for everyone, but the sentiment I've gotten regarding the Zeta movies is that the people who hated ZZ for being goofy, silly, and occasionally nonsensical WANT the movies to de-canonize ZZ, just so they can feel it is officially "under the rug", as they say.


I know there are people who have that sentiment, but the sentiment is foolish. Whether or not the series is "official," it still exists. The DVDs and model kits will always be produced. The characters and mobile suits will continue to show up in manga and video games. Short of hopping back to 1986 to change history, ZZ will always be around, whether people like it or not.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:26 pm 
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Deacon Blues wrote:
Okay, let me ask everyone why they think that the Zeta Gundam movies change the continuitiy of Gundam from that point onward? It doesn't. Tomino stated himself that it was NOT meant as a replacement for the series, but rather an alternative telling of it.

It's an alternative telling, but it's one that doesn't segue into Gundam ZZ. In one of the interviews that accompanied the release of the Zeta Gundam III movie, Tomino suggests that the viewer think of this as the beginning of a new story for Haman and Mineva, one that's different from that of ZZ. (The interview itself is in volume 12 of Zeta Historica, and the old Char's Custom Blog recounts some highlights here.) In short, Tomino acknowledges that Gundam ZZ wouldn't take place after the movie ending, but he doesn't really care--he's more interested in telling a satisfying Zeta Gundam story than in maintaining continuity with other series.

So on the one hand, it's perfectly reasonable for fans to wonder about the impact this has on Universal Century continuity, and the Japanese fans have raised a lot of the same questions. This is a real contradiction, not just a case of fandom getting the collective vapors. On the other hand, Tomino has never felt the need to choose one of his alternate story versions over another, and by Sunrise's rule of thumb both versions qualify as official. Perhaps the mental flexibility required to accept multiple versions of a fictional "truth" is an important step towards humanity's Newtype awakening. :-)

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:14 pm 
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toysdream wrote:
Perhaps the mental flexibility required to accept multiple versions of a fictional "truth" is an important step towards humanity's Newtype awakening.


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:18 pm 
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Deacon Blues wrote:
Okay, let me ask everyone why they think that the Zeta Gundam movies change the continuitiy of Gundam from that point onward? It doesn't. Tomino stated himself that it was NOT meant as a replacement for the series, but rather an alternative telling of it. People REALLY need to get this into their heads.


I'm assuming you already know that the movies exclude ZZ altogether considering the number of times the story has been discussed, so I don't think that part is an issue.

According to the rules laid out by Sunrise, neither the TV series nor the movie trilogies are considered more official than the other. Literally, you now have two different paths to choose from, and whether you choose the series path that leads to ZZ or the movie path that skips ZZ and goes straight to CCA, both choices would be right. That's what's now being stressed, and I don't know a whole lot of people who could accept this without their minds imploding. Still, no matter what, it's more important to realize that ZZ has, is, and always will be an official part of the UC timeline, and until Sunrise pulls a G-Savior, not even a rewrite will change that stance. Does that mean that Mark has become a newtype? :shock:

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:00 pm 
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Aegis wrote:
According to the rules laid out by Sunrise, neither the TV series nor the movie trilogies are considered more official than the other. Literally, you now have two different paths to choose from, and whether you choose the series path that leads to ZZ or the movie path that skips ZZ and goes straight to CCA, both choices would be right. That's what's now being stressed, and I don't know a whole lot of people who could accept this without their minds imploding. Still, no matter what, it's more important to realize that ZZ has, is, and always will be an official part of the UC timeline, and until Sunrise pulls a G-Savior, not even a rewrite will change that stance. Does that mean that Mark has become a newtype? :shock:


See, to me that makes perfect sense. You take one path, or you take the other. Neither is wrong, just one takes a more roundabout route getting to its final destination - via ZZ in this case. Where's the confusion in that?

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:59 pm 
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Some time ago I went to a lecture about Etruscan hand mirrors (an exciting topic, I know). The woman giving it was a Classicist, of course, and she discussed the difficulty she had in making her students understand that there is more than one version of the various Classical myths. The Orestes myth, for instance, is told by all three of the tragedians, Homer, and a smattering of others, such as Pindar. Of course, none of these are more "right" or "true" than any of the others, but her students simply could not wrap their minds around this.

For whatever reason, there is a deep seated need in people to know that there is one "true" version and that everything else is wrong.

It reminds me of a Jorge Luis Borges story called "The Garden of Forking Paths." The title of the story is also the name of a book in the story, in which the author writes every possible outcome for each scenario the protagonist finds himself in, creating a continuously branching narrative. It takes many years for anyone to understand that, however, as everyone is convinced the narrative must follow a single consistent path.

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:16 am 
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It's like talking a walk. If I take a particular path going home, does that mean I'm denying the existence of the other paths, and the path that I'm taking is the one true path?

But yeah, I don't want to put too much thought into this.


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:17 am 
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padre wrote:
It reminds me of a Jorge Luis Borges story called "The Garden of Forking Paths."

That's exactly the comparison I keep wanting to make, but I was afraid that if I mentioned it, nobody would get the reference. :-)

The thing about Borges's metaphorical garden is that, even if different people take different paths, they can still encounter each other at the same place later on. Just like Gundam continuity, it allows multiple routes to the same point.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:18 am 
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You know, I hadn't considered things like that, but since you put it that way it makes a lot of sense. I'm quite the fan of mythology myself (primarily Greco-Roman, but they're all good in my book), and I'm quite used to seeing slight variations in each story, depending on who's doing the telling. Considering that a lot of traditional stories were passed on entirely by word-of-mouth, it's no surprise that there would be so many variations.

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