Gundam: What's Official?

[Kratos]

If this mysterious Origin project ends up being a full-length series, we may very well get another long OYW series. I think it's unlikely that there'll ever be a 50-episode spinoff OYW story, but I think MSG's story is the only full-length OYW one necessary, to be perfectly honest. Even with just the OVAs, it's a crowded time. What more could really be covered, and need 50-odd episodes to do it?

[Darrien]

What more could really be covered, and need 50-odd episodes to do it?

That would be just the thing with it though. Every so many episodes would be a self contained arc with its own characters, events, story line. Something like episodes 1-4 or so focusing on the Battle of Loum and the One Week War from the eyes of an important pilot such as Char or the Black Tri-Stars. Then the next set of episodes could move focus to another event, say, Johnny Ridden's exploits in his 06R-2 and promotion/transfer to the Ace Corp and Operation Clarion. And so on, and so on.

It'd be a good chance to get exposure to a variety of new machines (and therefore model sales), add some official-ness to whatever Sunrise considers "whitest of gray", and flesh some more of the history.

Sadly though, this will never happen, I admit. I just see it in my head as something I'd personally love to see. Hopefully, though, we'll find out some more about Origin really soon, though honestly, I'm not really looking forward to more White Base OYW stuff... that, in my opinion, has pretty much been beaten into the ground... I'm hoping that we could see some of the Loum Battle and young Casval/Artesia segments in it though...

[ShadowCell]

dear god, dozens of irrelevant, disconnected microstories all meandering towards the twisted goal of turning UC Gundam into the Star Wars EU, which all fit into a context that only makes sense or has any meaning to you if you're already so steeped in UC Gundam lore that a full-length series is a triviality...

especially since all that stuff doesn't actually need to be official. it's fine the way it is. you can accept it all as part of the story told in Mobile Suit Gundam if you want, or you can not, but if someone else doesn't, that doesn't stop you from doing so. it's the same thing that's thus far allowed me to pull off the cognitive trick wherein Char's Deleted Affair and the 00 manga sidestories never happened.

it's weird. Sunrise's policy basically gives us free reign to create whatever backstory we want. why does this seem to break the gears in so many fans' minds?

[Dendrobium Stamen]

it's weird. Sunrise's policy basically gives us free reign to create whatever backstory we want. why does this seem to break the gears in so many fans' minds?

I think it's because of that creative freedom that parts of the fandom get a bit... edgy, and demand there to be a "canon" of some description.

Personally I revel in the "create your own canon" nature of Gundam lore - it's a bountiful buffet, with the officially-recognised animation at its core, and whichever sidestories one chooses to accept or reject added on.

[Baund Doc]

Although the Gaza-E and Advanced Hazel appeared in the Zeta movies, they're still basically cameo appearances, and with how with how AoZ's mobile suits worked (with the ability to dock with multiple mobile suits and even a ship). They basically didn't play a big a part as original mobile suits created for that series.

The first MSV was created to display mobile suits that didn't appear in the original series due to it's premature cancellation, but has become something of a tradition of a MSV to be created for when an animated series in the universal century is created (the only exceptions being SEED and 00).

But if Sentinel and AoZ were to be considered canon then would the characters be considered canon as well. For example Shin Matsunaga appeared in an episode of Evole and Johnnh Ridden must have some popularity to appear in all three Gundam Dynasty Warriors series.

Basically the whole what is canon can be attributed to other long running TV series and movies that have numerous side stories or spin offs like Star Trek, Dr. Who, and Star Wars created in the form of comics, novels, and radio dramas. In the case of these series which ever format they were created in first (which is basically animated/live-action) is the main canon, at least to me.

[SonicSP]

The first MSV was created to display mobile suits that didn't appear in the original series due to it's premature cancellation, but has become something of a tradition of a MSV to be created for when an animated series in the universal century is created (the only exceptions being SEED and 00).

AGE has continued this trend so it's kinda of a normal thing for AUs these days with the last three AUs in a row doing it and stuff.

I do wish Sunrise would clarify a bit more about their canon but I guess the white, grey and black levels sort of work. I know I take great liberties about which grey materials I want to believe. It does also mean making more subjective judgement calls about Wikia editing and decision making though.

[Kratos]

Why does it affect Wikia stuff? Just record things as they are - there's no subjectivity involved.

When canon has never existed in the first place, and none of the franchise entries are produced with it in mind, why would further clarification be necessary?

[ShadowCell]

the white/gray/black thing works extremely well, because it means you can hack together your own storyline based on the animation and whatever non-animated material you like. so if you want to pretend that things like Char's Deleted Affair and the 00 sidestories never happened, and if you want to pretend that Gundam Sousei is a completely 100% factually accurate and totally unembellished telling of how Gundam was made, you can do that!

what you can't do, though, is point at your headcanon and say that it's The One True Canon because the official account agrees with you. and damned if that doesn't jam sand in a lot of Western Gundam fans' gears.

[Deacon Blues]

Well that's the Western fans problem, they are using the term CANON which as Mark (and I took up later) have stated over and over again DOES NOT EXIST in Japan. It's either official or its not. I don't know why that concept is so hard for people to understand! filmed = official! Simple!

[Xenosynth]

Agreed with the above. Why do western fans NEED this canon so damned much? Can anyone explain why they want to know if something is canon? It's pointless and silly. Even for fanfic writers, they can just say 'Well my story is considering x,y, and q happened, but t did not happen.' This really just seems to rustle the jimmies of people for no logical reason at all. Anyway, as far as I see it? *points at signature*

[monster]

Agreed with the above. Why do western fans NEED this canon so damned much? Can anyone explain why they want to know if something is canon? It's pointless and silly. Even for fanfic writers, they can just say 'Well my story is considering x,y, and q happened, but t did not happen.' This really just seems to rustle the jimmies of people for no logical reason at all. Anyway, as far as I see it? *points at signature*

The concept of canon is useful in setting a common base in discussions and/or debates among fans. Fanfic writers may do whatever they want, but if you're discussing a particular fanfic, you're still treating that fanfic as the new canon/base for your particular discussion.

[Kratos]

Except canon as a concept was nonexistent (outside of religious contexts) until Star Wars EU stuff used it. Now it's applied to literally everything, whether the work ever used it beforehand and often to the detriment of discussion. Hell, it's often used in a way that actively contradicts the medium: look at how often "canon" is applied to comics...when no such thing really exists, or is so nebulous and shifting that it may as well not exist. Most works don't have "canon" in mind when writing, they're just trying to tell a good story.

And that's a problem, because unless the idea of canon is explicitly in mind when something is created, then the "canon" is fan-crafted...and, like anything fan-crafted, it will change person to person. Canon is ALWAYS head-canon, in other words, except in Star Wars (which itself has "tiers" of canon, not one monolithic structure) or anything else that pays obsessive attention to what applies to the story. That means that it doesn't help to guide discussion at all, and actually serves to make conversation more difficult and restrict the possibilities of examination.

[Amion]

Loved Mark's quote in your sig, Xenosynth.

My view is that official work is just adding sand to our sandbox so we can build whatever we want from it; a giant and hopefully fun exchange of differing viewpoints on Gundam Lore.

But while we Western viewers enjoy sharing our views, we for the most part tend to be very defensive of our ideas while actively attacking everyone elses' carefully built castles while setting up our own as the one true canon.

And Bandai just says everything in the sandbox is official, and it doesn't matter what we make out of the sand, the sand itself is still the true material.

[SonicSP]

Why does it affect Wikia stuff? Just record things as they are - there's no subjectivity involved.

When canon has never existed in the first place, and none of the franchise entries are produced with it in mind, why would further clarification be necessary?

Certain articles involves writing things involving taking things from multiple sources (for example talking about a specific mobile suit or character which makes appearances in multiple media). The less clearer the canon structure, the more judgement calls are required when writing about a singular topic especially when the articles are written from an in-universe narrative structure. You'll also have direct contradictions between two sources sometimes. It isn't a problem when writing an article about the media source itself; like a particular anime episode or the actual manga.

Clarifying contradictions in an out-of universe notes at the bottoms of the page is one good way to give out information to readers and something I'm thinking about implementing.

[Kuruni]

As one who do contribute there, I think when the word "canon" is used on Gundam Wikia, it mean "White and all gray" work. I think they use the term less now, but don't quote me on that.

[monster]

Except canon as a concept was nonexistent (outside of religious contexts) until Star Wars EU stuff used it. Now it's applied to literally everything, whether the work ever used it beforehand and often to the detriment of discussion. Hell, it's often used in a way that actively contradicts the medium: look at how often "canon" is applied to comics...when no such thing really exists, or is so nebulous and shifting that it may as well not exist. Most works don't have "canon" in mind when writing, they're just trying to tell a good story.

And that's a problem, because unless the idea of canon is explicitly in mind when something is created, then the "canon" is fan-crafted...and, like anything fan-crafted, it will change person to person.

Well, that's obviously not the type of canon I'm talking about. I'm simply answering the question of why some people would like to have a canonical body of related works. The basic idea here is that the canonical body of works can and/or should be taken into account together as context when discussing anything within that particular body of works.

Take, for example, Kira surviving the Aegis explosion in Gundam SEED. Some people might like the idea of being able to choose whether or not to account for the Astray explanation to that event in the story while others might rather have the people in charge of the franchise decide for them.

That means that it doesn't help to guide discussion at all, and actually serves to make conversation more difficult and restrict the possibilities of examination.

That depends on the particular discussion and what common base the people in that discussion have. Again, a proper canon can help to define that common base and get all the parties on the same page, which should make a discussion easier, barring any other obstacles.

[SonicSP]

As one who do contribute there, I think when the word "canon" is used on Gundam Wikia, it mean "White and all gray" work. I think they use the term less now, but don't quote me on that.

We do try to intergrate grey materials whenever possible.....especially since most mecha info is elaborated in those forms.

I dont recall the Wikia using the word canon all that much though in practice we intergrate white and grey materials.

[AmuroNT1]

monster: You can talk all you want about how the Western concept of canon would help a discussion...but for the purposes of Gundam discussions, it does not exist. The concept of "black and white" is as close as we're going to get.

Besides, you speak as if Westerners automatically accept the canon of a fictional universe as is with no debate. In response to that, I have just three words: "Han shot first".

[Kratos]

As for the Wikia issue, it's the writing of it from an in-universe perspective that's causing these problems, not the way "canon" is approached. For particular characters/MS that differ media to media, just have a section titled "In [media title here]". Bam! Problem solved.

[SonicSP]

It would solve some issues but it would be fairly complicated to separate each mecha detail based in what each book/kit manual says about them especially when more often than not they really don't contradict each other. That's also usually what happens in most media too since. I'm thinking more of minor detail contradictions that usually don't affect the biggest things.

It is a fairly efficient solution in cases where the timeline is usually THAT much different which do happens in the case of certain manga/novel adaptations of a main series. One example that comes to mind is the AGE novels in respect to the anime. The policy is usually to cover the anime stuff (or for mechs and characters that donhave in those, whatever their media is) and the add in other grey supporting materials that seemingly support those. Most "in-universe narration" is usually covering those.