Gundam: What's Official?

[Koshernova]

That was a rather interesting post, Mark. Thanks for that!

I have to agree with what you say, in that Western fans will take as canon whatever they like since the definition is so loose (and since even Sunrise are not 100% on what's official, considering that vast grey area...).

I do find it strange that Tomino has no say on what is official or not, moreover the fact that one of his works, Crossbone Gundam, wouldn't be considered Canon, when, you know... he kind of created the franchise (admittedly he didn't do this single-handledly, but the vision is his still). Then again I cannot imagine Tomino wanting to get involved in a discussion of what's official or not considering his conflicted relationship with Bandai/Sunrise (it's probably on good terms by now, but I'm sure there's still some conflict in there, but we'll probably never know for sure).

Finally, although I am not a huge AU fan I am compelled to ask: was it discussed whether non-animated additions to AU stories are official or not? I mean stuff like the myriad Gundam Wing and SEED manga, etcetera.

[Kuruni]

Ehh...call me slow from my understanding after read this thread...

1. MS from Harmony of Gundam instantly got official status even if they aren't animated.

2. "Imaginary" MS (like Monoeye Gundams) is gray, since they never exist (irony?).

3. Variation of existed model is gray (unless it contradict with anime), while completely new model is black.

Did I misunderstand anything?

[Mark064]

1. MS from Harmony of Gundam instantly got official status even if they aren't animated.

Yup totally right due to the input from Sunrise.

2. "Imaginary" MS (like Monoeye Gundams) is gray, since they never exist (irony?).

It seems to depend on the suit itself and how it came about. They really seem to be making a case out of not generalizing game designs. They end up talking about the Ez8 variations, Super Dias, Gromlin and Gromlin 2 from Gather Beat for example.

3. Variation of existed model is gray, unless it contradict with anime.

It depends on the design and if it contradicts with the design parameters and what not. If it doesn't look like a Zaku it's not a Zaku. I think they didn't like the Zaku 50 or Ebirhu Doga for that reason.

4. Completely new model is black.

Same as the past few it depends if it cannot exist or can.

5. Bandai's production are gray, but become white once part of them include in anime.

More or less since Bandai's productions include games so they may be black or gray but white if they make it to anime.

[Kuruni]

Reason why I think Monoeye Gundams are gray because they're like EZ8 Kai, they never exist in official timeline. So their existance as non-exist MS may never threaten by Sunrise (isn't that a paradox?).

[Mark064]

But that seems to be only one factor in their idea. They talked about how the Gromlin 2 was too advanced. Ez8 was ok because it was an idea of something like "Can't I go into space somehow?". So it really depends on how they came about in the game. When something was brought up for Gather Beat the first question asked seems to be "How'd it show up in the game?".

[toysdream]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and observations! This is turning into a very entertaining discussion.

I wouldn't be surprised if Advance of Zeta didn't make it due to the look of the designs compared to the animated stuff that and I can't imagine they are big fans of the story from which I remember is the TTT team attacking the same Zeon Ace over and over again conveniently missing out on every major Titan's operation.

Oddly, Advance of Zeta seems to be a particular Sunrise favorite. It was created as a joint project between Sunrise and Dengeki Hobby magazine, and Sunrise is credited with "planning cooperation" and "setting" (the latter is an all-encompassing term which, in this case, means that Sunrise is taking responsibility for the backstory). Now that a Hazel variant has popped up in the third Zeta movie, Advance of Zeta might actually qualify for the elite "official" category based on the rules laid down in the MS Expert Conference.

If his comment is right wouldn't the animated cameo of the Gaza-E and Hazel suit be exactly what he is talking about. But this is also problematic as for example Crossbone Gundam seems to be popular but there is virtually no way to get an animated cameo as it takes place inbetween F91 and Victory unless a series that took place in that time was created so it's quite problematic...

Yeah, that's tough luck for Crossbone Gundam. Perhaps Sunrise should put together some kind of late-U.C. series just so they can give Crossbone Gundam some cameo love.

Even from your earlier post on Gundam Offical's mecha development chart BD made it into the questionable existance category so it seems like Sunrise's offical stance downgraded BD from almost MSV status to something less with the Zanny (what was the roundtable status on the Zanny again, I recall it being mentioned?).

I'd have to go back and check on the Zanny section again. As for the Blue Destiny machines, I think the Gundam Official chart is perfectly consistent with what we're hearing here. All the anime designs and MSV mobile suits are listed as official (white text in black boxes), while all the game originals and Okawara's M-MSV designs are unofficial (black text in white boxes). No matter how much Sunrise likes Blue Destiny, it hasn't appeared in animation yet and thus remains technically unofficial.

I do find it strange that Tomino has no say on what is official or not, moreover the fact that one of his works, Crossbone Gundam, wouldn't be considered Canon, when, you know... he kind of created the franchise

Maybe this is where the term "canon" might be more appropriate. As far as Sunrise is concerned, none of Tomino's novels or comics are official, period, and since Tomino himself is a freelance director rather than a Sunrise employee he doesn't really have any say in this. But when Western fans talk about "canon," a lot of the time they're concerned with the intentions of the original creator, and if one considers Tomino the creator/author of the Universal Century series then his novels and side projects might have a better claim to being canon than whatever Sunrise management thinks this week. I'd say that's yet another argument for distinguishing between "canon" and "official."

Finally, although I am not a huge AU fan I am compelled to ask: was it discussed whether non-animated additions to AU stories are official or not? I mean stuff like the myriad Gundam Wing and SEED manga, etcetera.

They don't go into it in this discussion, but I'd assume the same rules apply. The Gundam Seed Astray series, which was coordinated closely with Sunrise and received a couple of cameos in the Gundam Seed TV series, probably comes closest to "official" status.


Whew! That's a lot of replies. Fortunately the other Mark has been doing a great job of digging up nifty tidbits and examples from the roundtable feature in the meantime.

-- Mark

[Annon Kaies Zi]

So...what about the two ASTRAY shorts that were animated and given away with DVDs (if I recall). Those are animated, and I believe by Sunrise...so does that lock in the fact that ASTRAY is official?

And, on a similar note, what about the Gundam EVOLVE shorts? They are animated by Sunrise. So does that makes suits like the MSZ-006-3A and MSZ-006-3B official?

If this does make them official, couldn't they do a short with the Crossbone Gundams? Possibly give them out with Master Grades or something. Or are the shorts, such as ASTRAY and EVOLVE, considered to be just shorts, with no official status?

[toysdream]

So...what about the two ASTRAY shorts that were animated and given away with DVDs (if I recall). Those are animated, and I believe by Sunrise...so does that lock in the fact that ASTRAY is official?

And, on a similar note, what about the Gundam EVOLVE shorts? They are animated by Sunrise. So does that makes suits like the MSZ-006-3A and MSZ-006-3B official?

Also good questions. Gundam Evolve, like Green Divers and Gundam The Ride, is a particularly interesting case since most of these CG works are produced by the same guys--Shigeru Horiguchi and Koichi Inoue--who are responsible for deciding what is and isn't official. On the other hand, a lot of the Evolve shorts obviously aren't in continuity (like Tomino's alternate-universe Char's Counterattack scene, or the remake of the Challia Bull episode), and Inoue also produced the infamous G-Saviour. Maybe the interviews on the Gundam Officials site will shed some more like on this.

-- Mark

[Skippy438]

Is it possible that an MS appearing in more than one animated short of "questionable officiality" lend more to something being official. Amuro's Zeta, as mentioned before, has appeared in both Green Divers and EVOLVE. Is this a case of it simply being a fan favorite suit with a fan favorite pilot, or an attempt to create an official place for Amuro during the ZZ time frame?

[toysdream]

Is it possible that an MS appearing in more than one animated short of "questionable officiality" lend more to something being official. Amuro's Zeta, as mentioned before, has appeared in both Green Divers and EVOLVE. Is this a case of it simply being a fan favorite suit with a fan favorite pilot, or an attempt to create an official place for Amuro during the ZZ time frame?

Both these works take place during Zeta Gundam - during U.C. 0087, in fact - so technically they don't tell us anything about the ZZ time frame. Be that as it may, the official status of Amuro's Zeta would presumably depend on the official status of the works it appeared in, and I'm still unclear whether Green Divers and Gundam Evolve are supposed to be "filmed works" on a par with the animated series.

-- Mark

[Cardi Doorl]

That's exactly why I'm not finding this new information all too helpful: they focus on classifying which individual units are considered official, and this doesn't necessarily mean the stories in which they appear are at all official. I wish they'd focus more on listing which stories (manga, video games, novels, etc.) are officially part of the Gundam canon, as that's not only more helpful but more interesting, if you ask me.

[toysdream]

That's exactly why I'm not finding this new information all too helpful: they focus on classifying which individual units are considered official, and this doesn't necessarily mean the stories in which they appear are at all official. I wish they'd focus more on listing which stories (manga, video games, novels, etc.) are officially part of the Gundam canon, as that's not only more helpful but more interesting, if you ask me.

Maybe I didn't communicate this clearly, but none of the stories or mobile suits discussed in this feature are considered official. The comics, novels, and video games are all unofficial works as far as Sunrise is concerned, and only filmed works are official, period. The only way a spinoff work could ever become official is if it's incorporated into a filmed work, as with the MSV machines that appeared in Zeta Gundam. Otherwise, the list you're asking for would be rather short, because it would be empty by definition.

So what's the point of this feature series, and why did I point it out? For starters, because it provides a clear statement of the above-mentioned rule. Other than that, it also provides some interesting insights into how Sunrise views the countless unofficial works, and how compatible they are from a continuity standpoint.

-- Mark

[Volnixshin]

Since Red and Blue frame ARE animated, as well as Miguel's Ginn, albeit all very briefly would that make them official but not Gold Frame for example?

[Melchior]

Well, Miguel's GINN (along with all those other SEED-MSV suits) appear in a clip made for a video game (I forget which) so I presume they would fall under the same category as clips from Gihrens Greed, therefore unofficial.

[Ascension]

But this is also problematic as for example Crossbone Gundam seems to be popular but there is virtually no way to get an animated cameo as it takes place inbetween F91 and Victory unless a series that took place in that time was created so it's quite problematic...

I take it the already extant animated Crossbone Gundam cameo in G doesn't count?

Why, under these rules a great number of mecha from other shows ought to be "official" in the Gundam universe, thanks to G.

Sorry... Somebody was going to point it out eventually, I figured it might as well be me.

[Mark064]

Well I can only hope everything in the animation isn't offical. That is unless Sunrise is willing to accept the fact that the Federation's weaponry on the attack of A Baoa Qu and Solomon included Tetsujin 28, Raideen and Danguard Ace equipped with GM shields. And let's not forget the fact that Xabungle mecha were part of the museum in Zeta Gundam.

[bluemax151]

It's nice to see that they finally recognize the game for Blue Destiny as the source material for once. In the end though no matter how hard they work I'm still going to like whatever designs and series I like regardless of whatever kind of judgement they pass down on them. I mean it's nice to see they're trying to clean the franchise up though...

[Chris]

Since Red and Blue frame ARE animated, as well as Miguel's Ginn, albeit all very briefly would that make them official but not Gold Frame for example?

As was stated earlier, ASTRAY is in a different category because it was planned in cooperation with Sunrise. According to their reasoning, I don't think ASTRAY suits necessarily have to be animated to have some "official" status because the series has Sunrise's stamp of approval anyway.

[Volnixshin]

Well, Miguel's GINN (along with all those other SEED-MSV suits) appear in a clip made for a video game (I forget which) so I presume they would fall under the same category as clips from Gihrens Greed, therefore unofficial.

However Miguel's Ginn appears in the ending song of Gundam Seed in the last episodes.

[Wingnut]

Well, Miguel's GINN (along with all those other SEED-MSV suits) appear in a clip made for a video game (I forget which) so I presume they would fall under the same category as clips from Gihrens Greed, therefore unofficial.

However Miguel's Ginn appears in the ending song of Gundam Seed in the last episodes.

Stuff showing up in OP or ED sequences doesn't mean jack. We see the Red Frame in the Invoke OP and that didn't do anything more or less to make the Red Frame an official unit.