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 Post subject: Degwin's first wife.
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:29 pm 
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I'm curious as to the fate of Degwin Zabi's 1st wife.

I've heard a lot about his 2nd wife, Nalisse. I know she was 11 years younger than the sovereign & the mother of Dozle & Garma & she died in childbirth with the latter.

There seems to be no info on Ghiren & Cicero's mom anywhere. Does anybody know her name or her ultimate fate? Did she leave Degwin or did she die & if so, how?

Also, there's a bit of confusion on Kycilia's parentage. Some say she was Nalisse's first child, others that she's the first wife's last, & others have gossipped that she's actually the product of an extramarital affair (which may be why the sovereign's first wife left). There's even confusion between different sources about whether she came before or after Dozle. One wonders if this is simply due to sloppy record keeping, or perhaps is an intentional move to contribute to the Rear Admiral's everpresent sense of mystery...

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 Post subject: Re: Degwin's first wife.
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:42 pm 
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Knight Of Zinc wrote:
II've heard a lot about his 2nd wife, Nalisse. I know she was 11 years younger than the sovereign & the mother of Dozle & Garma & she died in childbirth with the latter.

Some of this is probably just fan speculation. The only Japanese source that mentions Naliss is Tomino's novels, which merely establish that she's Garma's mother and that she's no longer alive at the time of the One Year War. I think it's mentioned somewhere that Dozle and Garma share the same mother, but I can't remember where off the top of my head. This business about her relative age compared to Degwin, and her dying in childbirth, is probably just fan invention.

As for the other Zabi children - Gihren, Sasro, and Kycilia - there's no info on their mothers, or whether they were even born within wedlock. (The possibility that Garma may have been considered more legitimate as an heir because of the details of his parentage might explain a lot of the tensions within the Zabi family.)

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Also, there's a bit of confusion on Kycilia's parentage. Some say she was Nalisse's first child, others that she's the first wife's last, & others have gossipped that she's actually the product of an extramarital affair (which may be why the sovereign's first wife left). There's even confusion between different sources about whether she came before or after Dozle.

At this point we're deep into the real of pure fan speculation. The order of birth, however, is clearly documented; Kycilia is 24 at the time of the original series, placing her right in between Dozle (age 28 ) and Garma (age 20).

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:52 pm 
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Who is Sasro? I've never heard of this person?

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:55 pm 
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Volnixshin wrote:
Who is Sasro? I've never heard of this person?

Cicero/Sasro/Saslo (depending on the translator) was Degwin's second son. He was killed a few years before the beginning of the series by a car bomb set by Ramba Ral's father Jinba in retalliation for Degwin &/or Ghiren murdering Zeon Deykun.

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:52 pm 
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Knight Of Zinc wrote:
Volnixshin wrote:
Who is Sasro? I've never heard of this person?

Cicero/Sasro/Saslo (depending on the translator) was Degwin's second son. He was killed a few years before the beginning of the series by a car bomb set by Ramba Ral's father Jinba in retalliation for Degwin &/or Ghiren murdering Zeon Deykun.


Cicero? LoL... that spelling isn't even possible given his name. Sasro (as reflected in Gundam the Origin as well as the Gundam Officials), was the apparently wouldbe successor to the Zabi family regime (as stated in the newspaper). I wouldn't exactly say that Sasro was killed by Jimba, but rather Kishiria herself. They were having a rather heated disagreement prior to the motorcade and he basically bitchslapped her. She didn't look too happy and I wouldn't put it past her to pull something like this off, because it basically painted her as the one that did it.


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:08 pm 
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I doubt she did that, or she wouldn't have been so angry at Gihren for killing their daddy. Or maybe she just wanted to finish what the she started...


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:17 pm 
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Deacon Blues wrote:
Cicero? LoL... that spelling isn't even possible given his name. Sasro (as reflected in Gundam the Origin as well as the Gundam Officials), was the apparently wouldbe successor to the Zabi family regime (as stated in the newspaper). I wouldn't exactly say that Sasro was killed by Jimba, but rather Kishiria herself. They were having a rather heated disagreement prior to the motorcade and he basically bitchslapped her. She didn't look too happy and I wouldn't put it past her to pull something like this off, because it basically painted her as the one that did it.


Usually I wouldn't put it past Kishiria to assassinate someone like that, but as Phantomexe stated, that's uncharacteristic of her considering how she reacted when Gihren killed Degwin. Besides, I never thought of Kishiria as the type to kill one of her own family, otherwise she could have killed off Garma a long while ago to secure a position to the top.

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:31 pm 
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If you look at volume 9 of The Origin, you'll see that Sasro slapped Kycilia. The look on her face after being slapped along with her actions during the bombing of Sasro's car pretty much infer that she's the one who did it. To me she killed Sasro more out of hatred and revenge than ambition for power. Framing Jimba Ral for the assassination was just out of convenience, since the Zabis were pretty much vying for control with the Rals after Deikun's death.

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:35 pm 
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From what I recall, Sasro was killed in a car bombing at some point while Degwin was securing his political power in Side 3 (ie, after Zeon Deikun died, but before he proclaimed Side 3 the Principality of Zeon) -- supposedly this is when Dozle got his lovely facial scars. From what I recall, Sasro was actually Dozle's younger brother (making him Degwin's third son, not second), but I could have the backwards. I'm also fairly certain that Dozle, Sasro, and Garma all have the same mother, while Kycilia and Gihren are their half-siblings (couldn't tell you whether Kycilia and Gihren had the same mother or not, though).

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:50 pm 
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Funnily enough, I've always suspected that Gihren was behind Sasro's assassination. As has been stated, he was second in line to the throne which would have made him an obstacle to Gihren, and we all know what Gihren does to obstacles, don't we?:lol:

Additionally, I think it's been stated that before Sasro's assassination that Degwin was trying co opt the Deikunists rather than eliminate them. The assassination was the pretext that allowed Gihren to go a'purging.

If we go by the law of conspiracy theories, the one who most benefits is always the culprit (cui bono) and Gihren seems to have gained the most from Sasro's assassination. It allowed him to move one step closer to the throne, gave him the pretext to remove all his political opponents and made dear old dad look weak for trying to negotiate with the bunch that eventually murdered his son. A win-win in other words.[/i]

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:55 pm 
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Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
From what I recall, Sasro was actually Dozle's younger brother (making him Degwin's third son, not second), but I could have the backwards.

Nope, he's always been the second son. The "third son" thing was a mistake by the staff of Rapport Deluxe, and one of their Gundam books included a very touching picture of Dozle cradling the corpse of his "little brother" next to a burning car, which probably added to the confusion among Western fans.

Speaking of Sasro: as Deacon notes, "Cicero" doesn't work as a Romanization. The character's name is written in kana as sasuro, which isn't very close to the English pronounciation of the ancient Roman orator's name, and nothing at all like the standard Japanese spelling of "Cicero."

And yes, Gundam The Origin does hint very strongly that Kycilia assassinated her brother Sasro and then blamed it on the Deikun faction. This was pretty surprising, but I don't think it's wildly out of character. Even though Kycilia murders her brother Gihren to avenge their father's death, bear in mind that Gihren freely confesses his crime to Kycilia, and clearly doesn't expect her to take offense. Perhaps Gihren's only mistake was in giving Kycilia a plausible excuse to kill him and take over. In any event, we know for a fact that Kycilia killed at least one of her siblings. :-)

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Funnily enough, I've always suspected that Gihren was behind Sasro's assassination. As has been stated, he was second in line to the throne which would have made him an obstacle to Gihren, and we all know what Gihren does to obstacles, don't we?:lol:

It doesn't make sense for Gihren to kill Sasro in order to clear the line of succession. Gihren is older than Sasro, so killing Sasro doesn't get him any closer to the throne. And if there's a legitimacy issue, then Dozle and Garma would probably be the real obstacles. Note that Gihren and Kycilia turn on each other immediately after Dozle's death.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:15 am 
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toysdream wrote:

And yes, Gundam The Origin does hint very strongly that Kycilia assassinated her brother Sasro and then blamed it on the Deikun faction. This was pretty surprising, but I don't think it's wildly out of character. Even though Kycilia murders her brother Gihren to avenge their father's death, bear in mind that Gihren freely confesses his crime to Kycilia, and clearly doesn't expect her to take offense. Perhaps Gihren's only mistake was in giving Kycilia a plausible excuse to kill him and take over. In any event, we know for a fact that Kycilia killed at least one of her siblings. :-)


Though in the anime, Kycilia really has no problem working with Char who had killed Garma, and even after she confronts him about it, knowing full well who he is, with the knowledge that he brought about her brothers death.
So I would say her assassinating Sasro wouldn't be completely out of character for her. If she was basically willing to keep around the man who killed one sibling, then its not as much of a stretch to say she might have had plans to take out the rest.

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:34 pm 
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Deacon Blues wrote:
Knight Of Zinc wrote:
Volnixshin wrote:
Who is Sasro? I've never heard of this person?


I wouldn't exactly say that Sasro was killed by Jimba, but rather Kishiria herself. They were having a rather heated disagreement prior to the motorcade and he basically bitchslapped her. She didn't look too happy and I wouldn't put it past her to pull something like this off, because it basically painted her as the one that did it.


Don't use "The Origin" as a source. It's full of its own speculations.

Kishiria would have been a whopping 14 at the time of Saslo's death. I really doubt that she had anything to do with it.

I'm afraid some of my fanfic speculation has become taken as fact. This is flattering, but wrong. However, I *know* I've read somewhere that Nalisse Zabi died in childbirth, or at the very least, extremely soon after Garma's birth. Can't tell you where, though.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:28 am 
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I don't agree with that sort of argument. Speculations or not, just because she is "14" at the time doesn't mean she isn't capable of doing something like that. She's a very able minded woman for her age. That, and as Mark stated, it isn't that wild of an idea anyways.


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:40 am 
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unsc117 wrote:
If you look at volume 9 of The Origin, you'll see that Sasro slapped Kycilia. The look on her face after being slapped along with her actions during the bombing of Sasro's car pretty much infer that she's the one who did it. To me she killed Sasro more out of hatred and revenge than ambition for power. Framing Jimba Ral for the assassination was just out of convenience, since the Zabis were pretty much vying for control with the Rals after Deikun's death.

I can post screens if you want to see.

Another possible pointer is that after Sasro's death, Kycilia reported to Gihren in his garden regarding the current situation(she's attempting to take control of the Deikum family). Gihren told her to pray for Sasro's poor soul instead, and Kycilia is visibly disturbed----perhaps he's hinting that he knew about Kycilia's involvment in Sasro's death.

Of course, this is just for G:tO and not canon.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:59 pm 
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I think Kishiria (the writer) makes a good point in reminding us that Kycilia (the character) would only have been 14 at this point in the orthodox Gundam universe. Yas seems to have made most of the Zabi family members a little older, but something that would be feasible for a 20-year-old Kycilia might not be possible for a 14-year-old one, even if her basic personality is unchanged. This is why we need to be very careful in applying stuff from The Origin to the anime universe, just as with Tomino's novels.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:58 pm 
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I think that the only family member Kishiria actually cared about was thier father. She didn't seem to care about the deaths of Garma or Dozle. She said next to nothing in regards to Garma and I don't think she even acknowledges Dozle's. All I have to rely on is the TV series and the movie trilogy.

I'm no OYW buff, But thats just my two cents.


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