The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

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The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

Post by swordoath » Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:20 am

What, exactly, is the deal with the people in F91 and anything that came before them? When Leahlee sees the Gundam-styled face of the F91, she starts talking about "mobile suits from long ago called Gundams." Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that whole conversation just seemed totally backwards. Maybe she was specifically referring to the RX-78-2, but it didn't come out that way in the dialogue at all, and it's not like this is the first Gundam anyone's seen in hundreds of years or something. Even if we discount F90 as an after-the-fact addition, CCA happened only 30 years beforehand.

She's not the only case of it either, although that one really hit me the most as being weird. I've been sitting on it for a while, but this has been eating at me.

And while we're talking about F91, why did everyone have the sudden urge to use "Acting Captain" when referring to Leahlee? She is not the first, nor the last case of a junior officer being put into a position of ship command, and yet this is the only time I know of the "Acting" label being added in Gundam.
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Post by Phantomexe87 » Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:58 am

What you have to keep in mind, is that the RX-78 was the most famous Gundam, the other ones, while more powerful, etc, never became so well known by the public. The RX-78 was the embodiment of hope to the entire Federation against Zeon. The Nu Gundam for example, was probably pretty obsucre to most, as really only Londo Bell had one, and it died pretty fast, even if more were made, it would not exactly be known to the general public. In UC Gundam even a few decades can seem like centuries, or so is the impression I got in Victory and F91. I mean in Gundam Victory are the Zeon mentioned much? If at all? How about the Titans? Seems like that all happened centuries ago.

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Post by mcred23 » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:54 am

swordoath wrote:What, exactly, is the deal with the people in F91 and anything that came before them? When Leahlee sees the Gundam-styled face of the F91, she starts talking about "mobile suits from long ago called Gundams." Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that whole conversation just seemed totally backwards. Maybe she was specifically referring to the RX-78-2, but it didn't come out that way in the dialogue at all, and it's not like this is the first Gundam anyone's seen in hundreds of years or something. Even if we discount F90 as an after-the-fact addition, CCA happened only 30 years beforehand.
Like Phantomexe87 said, with the exception of the RX-78-2 used by Amuro Ray in the One Year War, most of the other Gundams weren't all that well known by the people even during that time period (or people outside the military).

Also, these are people who grew up in a period of relative peace. Unlike the UC 0080's, which were full of armed conflicts that affected basically everyone. The late UC 0090's to when F91 takes place have few conflicts at all, I don't think any ever reached the scale of the Gryps War or the One Year War. The people in those eras knew of Gundams because of the OYW and what was going on around them, but the people in the UC 100's really wouldn't, and to them, it'd just be some stuff from the past they probably don't remember.
swordoath wrote:And while we're talking about F91, why did everyone have the sudden urge to use "Acting Captain" when referring to Leahlee? She is not the first, nor the last case of a junior officer being put into a position of ship command, and yet this is the only time I know of the "Acting" label being added in Gundam.
IIRC, Leahlee is the only one who was actually placed in command of her ship, rather than assuming/inheriting command of it due to people being killed and/or wounded (Which is what happened with people like Bright).
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Re: The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

Post by Chris » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:03 pm

swordoath wrote:What, exactly, is the deal with the people in F91 and anything that came before them? When Leahlee sees the Gundam-styled face of the F91, she starts talking about "mobile suits from long ago called Gundams." Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that whole conversation just seemed totally backwards. Maybe she was specifically referring to the RX-78-2, but it didn't come out that way in the dialogue at all, and it's not like this is the first Gundam anyone's seen in hundreds of years or something. Even if we discount F90 as an after-the-fact addition, CCA happened only 30 years beforehand.
First of all, F90 is not an after-the-fact addition, as it was published before F91 was released. As others have pointed out, F91 takes place in an era of long peace where there hasn't been any conflict. Sure, the RX-78-2 Gundam was famous, but that was during the biggest and most destructive war in UC history. While the Zeta Gundam was famous (as evidenced by Judau recognizing it before he steals it), that was at the time of a conflict. I doubt that by UC 0123, the general public remembers anything about the Gryps War, the Neo Zeon Wars or any of the mobile suits that appeared in them. And even with F90, I'm sure that situation with the stolen Gundam was kept classified and away from the public.
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Re: The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

Post by Rei Murasame » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:34 pm

Chris wrote:First of all, F90 is not an after-the-fact addition, as it was published before F91 was released.
Exactly!

Lately I've been seeing a lot of people around here trying to claim that F90 was anything a 'retcon', 'tacked on contrivance', and even 'not canon'.

Where are they getting that idea from?
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Re: The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

Post by Mwulf » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:35 pm

Chris wrote: I doubt that by UC 0123, the general public remembers anything about the Gryps War, the Neo Zeon Wars or any of the mobile suits that appeared in them. And even with F90, I'm sure that situation with the stolen Gundam was kept classified and away from the public.
But Leahlee's words are still... odd. She's not some random civilian, she's a soldier... and I think it's logical to assume she had some sort of military history classes at some point in her training... and then there's the fact that the Earth Federation seems to be developing Gundams almost constantly... it just makes her wording "long time ago" seem ~really~ out of place.

Though for all I know that could just be a translation hiccup.
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Post by Phantomexe87 » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:39 pm

Well given the vastness of Space and how secretive most Gundams are, it is possible she just never heard of any outside of the One Year War. We've seen weirder lapses. She would have been borin in 0101, and as far as we know, with the exception of some Zeons on Mars, there was no major conflict at that point, or at least not one retconned in there yet.

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Re: The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

Post by Wingnut » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:55 pm

Mwulf wrote:
Chris wrote: I doubt that by UC 0123, the general public remembers anything about the Gryps War, the Neo Zeon Wars or any of the mobile suits that appeared in them. And even with F90, I'm sure that situation with the stolen Gundam was kept classified and away from the public.
But Leahlee's words are still... odd. She's not some random civilian, she's a soldier... and I think it's logical to assume she had some sort of military history classes at some point in her training... and then there's the fact that the Earth Federation seems to be developing Gundams almost constantly... it just makes her wording "long time ago" seem ~really~ out of place.

Though for all I know that could just be a translation hiccup.
It's not a translation hiccup. In the Japanese track you can hear them add something else on before they say kancho. Also the crew didn't know if any higher ranking officers were still alive or not after she was placed in command and the kids got to the Space Ark, though by the end of the movie she likely was the most senior officer left alive.
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Post by Crusader » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:11 pm

Lt. something (guy who shot at the kids ) seemed to be the highest ranking soldier there (and he was a junior grade), considering all the important people fled. Not to mention cosmo was killed and i don't know what happened to the Lt. plus the weren't really using that ship to mount an offense, it was more of a civilian ship. I don't even think the ship was seen in combat. It was being used as a medical ship as far as i can remember.

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Post by Wingnut » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:17 pm

Crusader wrote:Lt. something (guy who shot at the kids ) seemed to be the highest ranking soldier there (and he was a junior grade), considering all the important people fled. Not to mention cosmo was killed and i don't know what happened to the Lt. plus the weren't really using that ship to mount an offense, it was more of a civilian ship. I don't even think the ship was seen in combat. It was being used as a medical ship as far as i can remember.
The Space Ark was a training ship actually, and thus was mostly crewed by cadets and such with only a small number of actual commisioned officers and enlisted personel. So when the fighting broke out Leahlee was left in charge with no more than a skeleton crew aboard while everyone else went off to fight.

Oh and that Lt. did have a name. Lt. JG Bardo.
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Post by Mwulf » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:15 pm

Er... I meant the "long ago" being a hiccup, not the part about her being an acting-captain. She was an acting-captain, after all. :roll:
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Post by mcred23 » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 pm

Mwulf wrote:and I think it's logical to assume she had some sort of military history classes at some point in her training...
Yes, but that doesn't mean they'd tell her every detail about every Gundam ever built (Let alone ones that weren't built and/or used by the Federation). Learning about the iconic RX-78-2 and knowing what a Gundam is can be expected, but I doubt they'd go into much detail (if any) about the machines that followed it and their less than stellar histories (The ill-fated Gundam Project units and stolen Mark II's aren't high points of the Federation).
Mwulf wrote:and then there's the fact that the Earth Federation seems to be developing Gundams almost constantly...
Yes, but much like the F90 and F91 units, they usually keep these sorts of units classified, less they become targets for some of the Anti-Federation groups out there and the Gundams get stolen (again). It's not like every member of the Federation knows about every machine to bear the name Gundam.
Mwulf wrote:it just makes her wording "long time ago" seem ~really~ out of place.
Well, all of the famous, publically known Gundams came and went well before Leahlee was born (She is 22 during the events of F91), so events that occured ten years or more before she was born can easily be seen by her (or by many people in a similar situation) as a 'long time ago'.
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Post by Zeonic Glory » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:04 pm

Yeah, the RX-78-2 gave the Federation some good publicity while:

Other OYW Gundams are less famous in comparison and seem obscure.

Getting a nuke armed Gundam stolen then sending another new one with a rookie pilot and they both get trashed and then the newest one is stolen from Anaheim.

Rebel group steals one and makes an even better one which proceeds to destroy units in what is a corrupt part of the Federation.

Merging with old rebel group while having former using a Gundam that was made for them and not the Feddies.

Secret Taskforce making fights using Gundams that are not known to the general public.

Having a Newtype Gundam sent to a part of the Federation which later gets destroyed pushing Axis away from Earth.

So, as you can see, the Feddies had a shining moment with the 78-2 while others are caught in situations that embarass/makes the Federation look bad.
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Re: The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

Post by swordoath » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:16 am

Chris wrote:First of all, F90 is not an after-the-fact addition, as it was published before F91 was released.
Ah, sorry, my mistake. I'd just been going on what I heard previously. :?
mcred23 wrote:Yes, but that doesn't mean they'd tell her every detail about every Gundam ever built (Let alone ones that weren't built and/or used by the Federation). Learning about the iconic RX-78-2 and knowing what a Gundam is can be expected, but I doubt they'd go into much detail (if any) about the machines that followed it and their less than stellar histories (The ill-fated Gundam Project units and stolen Mark II's aren't high points of the Federation).
I'd imagine that the whole situation with Axis and the Nu Gundam was mentioned in a textbook somewhere during the Federation training courses at the very least. It was just too big of an event, and too recent in the timeline, to go completely unmentioned.

And as far as the others are concerned, even if the general public remains unaware of the specifics regarding each Gundam, would they not have at least some idea that a new unit bearing the name and likeness was out there somewhere? Delaz makes his speech in 0083 in front of the GP02A, which should get the ball rolling. The Psyco Gundam fight in Hong Kong couldn't have gone unnoticed by the populace. Each time there's a new Gundam series, something tells me that more people should know about the events therein than the number that actually seem to. The Fedeation surely can't go around offing the people that know about these things. Try as they might to cover up the facts, it seems like there should be some "civilian records" or something.
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Post by Phantomexe87 » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:24 am

Well I never considered 0083 canon, due to Tomino's complete absence, and it's continuity flaws. However, if 0083 is canon, then the Federation would have covered the whole thing up. So it would be remembered as the UC Roswell of sorts... anyone who claims it happened is discredited and deemed a nutjob by the media. And given that the Federation somehow covered up a nuclear attack on their main space base, and deemed a colony drop on North America (which should have killed millions) to be a technical error, they certainly can cover up a giant robot tearing up Hong Kong, or they blamed the AEUG for it. You'd be amazed how easy it is to cover things up when you are the government, and even more so when you are the entire world's government.

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Post by wing zero alpha » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:22 am

Phantomexe87 wrote:Well I never considered 0083 canon, due to Tomino's complete absence, and it's continuity flaws.
I hate to break it to you, but even if you don't consider it, 0083 is as much canon as 0080, 08th MS Team and any other spin-offs (Tomino had nothing to do with them either). Believe me, we all have problems with 0083 in one way or another, but that doesn't change the fact.

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Post by "Kamille! Kamille! » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:30 am

I've always found the whole "canon/not" argument really annoying. Believe in what you want to believe in. If you don't want to consider 0083 canon, then don't. Whatever makes it more enjoyable for you.

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Post by Chris » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:35 am

[quote=""Kamille! Kamille!"]I've always found the whole "canon/not" argument really annoying. Believe in what you want to believe in. If you don't want to consider 0083 canon, then don't. Whatever makes it more enjoyable for you.[/quote]

No, you can't say 'believe whatever you want." There has to be a line somewhere. I can understand manga/novels/games being up to question, but for the sake of discussion here, denying the canonicity of anime will create problems. This issue with 0083 already popped up and has taken this thread off topic. In any discussion anywhere, someone could gum it all up with "well I only think of the original series as canon" or whatnot. It doesn't matter what anyone personally thinks or likes/doesn't like about a show - you cannot deny that animated works are canon.
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Post by Phantomexe87 » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:27 am

I'm not trying to start some big controversy, but I see the OVAs as just fun little side stories, which do not pertain to the actual story. Like Dragon Ball GT to Dragon Ball Z, if you consider them canon, great, if not, fine. 0080 at least gets a mention of sorts in Turn A Gundam, so I consider that one semi-canon. But that's me.

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Re: The Before-Time, The Long-Long-Ago

Post by Cardi Doorl » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:29 am

swordoath wrote:I'd imagine that the whole situation with Axis and the Nu Gundam was mentioned in a textbook somewhere during the Federation training courses at the very least. It was just too big of an event, and too recent in the timeline, to go completely unmentioned.

And as far as the others are concerned, even if the general public remains unaware of the specifics regarding each Gundam, would they not have at least some idea that a new unit bearing the name and likeness was out there somewhere? Delaz makes his speech in 0083 in front of the GP02A, which should get the ball rolling. The Psyco Gundam fight in Hong Kong couldn't have gone unnoticed by the populace. Each time there's a new Gundam series, something tells me that more people should know about the events therein than the number that actually seem to. The Fedeation surely can't go around offing the people that know about these things. Try as they might to cover up the facts, it seems like there should be some "civilian records" or something.
Right, these Gundams could be quite well-known to the public, but they were used/destroyed long before Leahlee was born (if I'm not mistaken), so to her even the Nu Gundam, which was most recent, would seem like something long ago.
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