Yuri and Yaoi

The place to discuss anything relating to anime or manga.
Henyo
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Android raptor wrote:I had my yaoi phase as a dumb kid (there are people here who witnessed it firsthand, trust me when I say it was awful for every one) but with maturity I've since lost interest and actually gained a lot of disgust for the genre and fandom. The yaoi genre, as defined by male/male stories written by and for women, suffers from massive amounts of glorification of abusive relationships and even pedophilia amongst many other unsavoury things. The dedicated fandom also leaves much to be desired (even the most misogynistic of gamers pales in comparison to the misogyny I've seen yaoi fans partake in). For the most part, yaoi isn't a great place to look for good stories featuring m/m relationships and certainly shouldn't be seen as anything close to reality (and in many ways is actually extremely demeaning and offensive to queer men).

From my experience yuri is a bit better, probably due authorship being more diverse (many yuri authors are actually women and yuri is a huge shoujo mainstay). However, its less common in fandom especially and what exists often isn't too my tastes (never been big on slice of life or schoolgirl).

Finding stories with same-sex couples is important to me as a queer person, however I personally prefer to seek out individual things I hear are good or content of specific pairings I like (if possible).
i have the same problem. that is, finding good stories.(both official and fanfics.) most of the times writers forget that problems that the gays and bians actually face. most important of which is how hard for people to accept that they're gay. although i read tasteless Yuri every now and then. 8)

have you tried Kanamemo? it may have a young girl as an MC but at the very least she stays at her workplace.

on the yaoi side, what did you eat yesterday is quite a good read. both characters are in their 40s. live together(only one of them is out of the close though.)

is Gravitation any good? i watched the OVA out of a whim, so the only part i recall clearly are the funny parts.
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!
User avatar
MrMarch
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:58 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

I think you’ll find that any sub-culture oppressed by the main culture suffers from a lack of proper/positive representation both outside the sub-culture and from within. This translates to the fiction/entertainment of the sub-culture, in this case gay art and entertainment via stuff like Yaoi. Sub-cultures don’t benefit from structure/support provided by the main culture and as a result many in the sub-culture must stumble through figuring out how it all works independently. I find it no surprise Yaoi should suffer from a lot of exploitation and fan service catering to base gratification.

Also keep in mind that women are the primary Yaoi consumer and women are also an oppressed and underrepresented group in most cultures. To some women, the idea of men (even if it is gay men) being sexually/emotionally vulnerable, abused and exploited in the same way many women are can be a very attractive fantasy escape to some.

I think that just like art/entertainment in our main culture, you will find that over time Yaoi will also improve, offering a healthier, more balanced and accurate portrayal of gay men. There are more positive role models of gay men in our popular culture now than at any time (and our share of bad ones too), but at least sub-genres like Yaoi exist as some level of representation – either good or bad – that has yet to hit the mainstream.
User avatar
SonicSP
Posts: 1533
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

I was at an anime convention last year and one of the panels held was about Yuri and Yaoi and a discussion about them in general.

The consensus from the panelists and the audience (we had people talking about their personal experiences of the genres and naturally it included people who identified as LGBT given the topic of the panel) was that Yuri in general was more generally
more disrespectful than Yaoi.

I don't know the genres well enough personally to have a personal opinion on which and I rarely read discussions topics on them much but this is the first time I've seen Yaoi being characterized as such so I find the viewpoints above to the be interesting. I always assumed that Yaoi was generally more respectful but I guess perhaps there's a chance that's not the case.
User avatar
Android raptor
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:33 am
Location: THE STATE OF GEORGIAAAAAAAAAA

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

I disagree, I think yaoi is more disrespectful. The genre used to be better, for example in the 70's things like Kaze to ki no Uta treated serious issues like rape and child molestation with respect and didn't glorify them, however these days you'd be hard pressed to find yaoi that doesn't glamorize things that should never, ever be glamorized (things like Boku no Pico come to mind). Even things like Gravitation, which has appeal for its humor and music, still glorifies an unhealthy relationship in the same was as the much-hated Twilight series. The fandom, at least on the American end, also has massive issues (I think I mentioned earlier even the most misogynistic gamers don't hold a candle to some of the misogyny I've seen in the yaoi fandom). For example, the series Black Butler, despite primarily being BL, features a creator confirmed trans female character. Despite trans characters being incredibly rare, more of the fandom than not refuses to acknowledge her gender identity and instead insists on treating her as male (from what I hear editing her article on the fan wiki is even a bannable offense).

Not to say yuri is perfect by any stretch, just that if I had to pick which genre was better overall I'd choose it by a landslide over yaoi.

As for stories not acknowledging struggles lgbtq people face in the real world, I think it depends on the setting. I headcanon and write certain Gundam characters as queer, however I think there's a good chance by that point lgbtq people no longer face the same levels of prejudice and oppression and thus its not really seen as a big deal (hell, no one seems to care that Char and Garma act like flirty 14 year olds so I'd argue there's some canon basis for this). Of course in settings where there would realistically be prejudice its an entirely different story, but still.

For anyone who likes things that are so bad they're funny, I highly recommend the yaoi ova Zetsuai Bronze. The series was intended to be dead serious, however the end product is basically the anime version of Tommy Wiseau's The Room. It makes me laugh so hard I cry at points, no lie (the fact that the main characters share seiyuus with Ghinius Sakhalin and Zechs Marquiez doesn't hurt either).
Let me show you my Pokemons!
Liking characters no one else does since 1989.
User avatar
Destiny_Gundam
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm
Location: Canada, eh.
Contact:

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Android raptor wrote:For example, the series Black Butler, despite primarily being BL, features a creator confirmed trans female character. Despite trans characters being incredibly rare, more of the fandom than not refuses to acknowledge her gender identity and instead insists on treating her as male (from what I hear editing her article on the fan wiki is even a bannable offense).
Hm, which character is that... *Looks it up and finds the argument over it* Boy, not enough people know the difference between sex and gender.

I'll admit I haven't had much contact with the yaoi fandom, but the people I have met seem to atleast understand that their fandom is fandom. Some yuri fans I know are 100% convinced that their fandom is completely canon and that anyone who doesn't agree is a blind homophobic troll.
"In the end, the world doesn't really need a Superman... Just a brave one."
User avatar
MrMarch
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:58 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Android raptor wrote:...Zetsuai Bronze...the anime version of Tommy Wiseau's The Room...
lolwhat?!?! With a description like that, I just HAVE to check this out :)
Henyo
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Android raptor wrote:I disagree, I think yaoi is more disrespectful. The genre used to be better, for example in the 70's things like Kaze to ki no Uta treated serious issues like rape and child molestation with respect and didn't glorify them, however these days you'd be hard pressed to find yaoi that doesn't glamorize things that should never, ever be glamorized (things like Boku no Pico come to mind). Even things like Gravitation, which has appeal for its humor and music, still glorifies an unhealthy relationship in the same was as the much-hated Twilight series. The fandom, at least on the American end, also has massive issues (I think I mentioned earlier even the most misogynistic gamers don't hold a candle to some of the misogyny I've seen in the yaoi fandom). For example, the series Black Butler, despite primarily being BL, features a creator confirmed trans female character. Despite trans characters being incredibly rare, more of the fandom than not refuses to acknowledge her gender identity and instead insists on treating her as male (from what I hear editing her article on the fan wiki is even a bannable offense).

Not to say yuri is perfect by any stretch, just that if I had to pick which genre was better overall I'd choose it by a landslide over yaoi.

As for stories not acknowledging struggles lgbtq people face in the real world, I think it depends on the setting. I headcanon and write certain Gundam characters as queer, however I think there's a good chance by that point lgbtq people no longer face the same levels of prejudice and oppression and thus its not really seen as a big deal (hell, no one seems to care that Char and Garma act like flirty 14 year olds so I'd argue there's some canon basis for this). Of course in settings where there would realistically be prejudice its an entirely different story, but still.

For anyone who likes things that are so bad they're funny, I highly recommend the yaoi ova Zetsuai Bronze. The series was intended to be dead serious, however the end product is basically the anime version of Tommy Wiseau's The Room. It makes me laugh so hard I cry at points, no lie (the fact that the main characters share seiyuus with Ghinius Sakhalin and Zechs Marquiez doesn't hurt either).
since you mentioned gundam, anyone else thinking that mecha and Magical Girl animes have become a magnet for yaoi and Yuri? especially, the latter. older series almost always have a prominent male character.

and yeah, i find yuri better. yaoi has too extreme Ukefication. in yuri the characters don't need to be changed much.(unless of course you're going for shock value or anything along those lines.)

lastly,(searches for Zetsuai Bronze images) WHOA! i think i'll try this when i've rendered unhealthy over time at work. 8)
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!
Zeonista
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:47 pm
Location: in ur colony, steelin ur gundam

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Kirby is right, yaoi and yuri stories are written for heterosexual audiences indulging in fantasy, not people who are actual LGBT in origin. If actual LGBT people happen to like a yaoi/yuri story that could be interpreted as the story's appeal to them, not because it actually relates to their sexual identity. Now, because yaoi/yuri fandoms are like all other fandoms, there are always fans that go too far. We all know a particular representative example, there is no need to point fingers. :) But a lot of yaoi/yuri is written to be soap opera for nice normal people who lead nice normal lives and would never stray outside the boundaries...but enjoy thinking about doing so. It's a very Japanese attitude! :D

There is an actual cultural basis for this same-sex attraction story business. Back in the old days, men of the bugei and kukei families (samurai and Imperial court nobles respectively) were often bisexual. They would have wives and concubines, but as tweens and teens they might become lovers of an older warrior to learn in terms of a personalized setting as opposed to a generalized classroom instruction. Apprenticeship or mentorship with benefits, you might say. ;) Some men of the same class also formed very close personal bonds in a highly masculine setting in the Hellenistic mode since nearly all upper-class women lived indoors and rarely ventured out, or were allowed to venture out before they were married. (Or at least the women might titter and gossip behind their fans about bromance between close friends.) This was not regarded as homosexual; true men-only relationships to the exclusion of women were left to the monasteries, and derided as decidedly unmanly behavior.

The formal term for a Japanese wife, oku-san, has as its base meaning "woman at the center of the house." Given the usual arrangement of a Japanese manor as a maze of partitioned chambers, My Lady, her ladies-in-waiting, and the concubines are all sectioned off away from casual contact with all men who are not family or servants who are so well-known they might as well be family. In this context the term yuri is fitting, since lilies are flowering plants where the blossoms are all grouped together in the center. ;) Prince Genji of immortal literary fame was known for stealthily entering these closed-off women's quarters, and the great hero Minamoto Yoshitsune did the same in order to seduce the daughter of a Taira vassal. But what are all the young bored beauties to do when there are no stealthy heroes in the offing? Well, we can think of a few things. :D Again, these were not true same-sex relationships, just gossip (or more) about gratification.

The courtesans of the brothel district were of course mistresses of hot girl-on-girl action. And maybe hot boy-on-boy action if the client was into that sort of thing. It was all part of the job though, whether fantasy play or threesome foreplay for a client. The Floating World (especially the high-end ones) was a wish fulfillment industry for noblemen and merchants who were often married to women they didn't love, or who wanted to try a change of pace since Old Japan was not monogamous as that term was understood in the West.
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
AmuroNT1
Posts: 3420
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:41 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Yeah, I'm pretty much of the same mind as Kirby and Zeonista when it comes to yaoi and yuri. (Before I start on this little rant, I feel the need to clarify that I myself am straight, but support gay rights.)

I discussed this years ago when I was on Gundamn for the Wing recap episode: I do not have a problem with the IDEA of stories that portray established characters as gay, but with the EXECUTION. As I said at the time, I wouldn't have a problem with a story that had Trowa and Quatre get together, provided it respected the source material and actual characterization. The problem is that very few stories actually do, and will instead go to insane lengths to justify hooking up two guys. The joke I always tell is about Trowa being a handsome vampire who sweeps lonely rich kid Quatre off his feet, but the thing is, that's not a joke; it actually happened in a story I heard about. For a while, a friend of mine who was also a Wing fan had this "game" where he'd go on Fanfiction.net and just share with me the plot synopses of the fics tagged as yaoi, mostly because of the laughs we'd get out of how far removed they were from the actual plot and setting of the show.

It also made me laugh back in the day when I heard the yaoi fangirls who honestly believed that Japan is some kind of Wonderland where pretty men make out on the streets while girls like them cheer. The harsh reality is, Japan is a very closed-minded society in that regard, and homosexuality has even less of a foothold there than it does in the US. The only real reason for the proliferation of yaoi, yuri, boys' love and other media focusing on homosexual characters is entirely cynical: it makes the authors money. In effect, it's no different from the cheesy exploitation movies we got back in the 70s.

As for original stories featuring gay characters, the primary problem from my perspective is, it tends to be written by straight people, for the enjoyment of other straight people. And all too often this results in the characters having about as much depth as a kiddie pool. The example that always got under my skin was Family Guy; the creator and writers profess to be big gay rights supporters, yet every single gay character who shows up is horrendously stereotypical, with the men being catty, promiscuous, and worse (such as the implication that Brian's cousin's "husband" was actually just some poor guy who didn't speak English and was going to get raped), while the women are butch, perpetually angry man-haters.

The core of this seems to be the idea that if someone is gay, it dominates every aspect of their being. A few years ago, Marvel Comics outed Northstar (a member of the Canadian super-team Alpha Flight), and in doing so destroyed his character. Before the reveal, he was a well-rounded person; afterwards, every single sentence out of his mouth HAD to remind you that he was gay. In cases like this, it feels like the writers don't understand that homosexual people are, surprisingly enough, PEOPLE. It's not like every waking moment of their lives is spent in pursuit of sex; they have jobs, hang out with friends, read books, own pets, and do everything else that straight people do.

And unfortunately, I think this feeds back into the point about fanfiction: There are some people out there who don't WANT deep, human characterization. They just want to see two boys or two girls making out because it gets them hot. These also tend to be the people who see yaoi and yuri where it doesn't necessarily exist; a prime example that's already been mentioned here is Hibike! Euphonium, but it doesn't take much digging to find countless other shows where the fans are too busy reading between the lines for gay subtext to pay attention to what's actually happening on screen.

I guess if you wanted to me to summarize this rambling diatribe, I'd just say "Hate the player, not the game" - What bugs me isn't the concepts of yaoi or yuri themselves, but rather the vocal minority of fans and creators who I find disrespectful and narrow-minded. To those people I say, if you wanna watch gay porn, just be honest about it and don't act like there's some deeper significance to what you're doing. But at the same time, don't get all pissy with me because I refuse to call your stories full of mindless sex "art", or because I don't interpret two characters of the same sex having a five-minute conversation as iron-clad proof that they're in love. If you want my respect, write a GOOD story with a respectful portrayal of gay men and women, and then we'll talk.
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

-Touhou 07.5 ~ Immaterial and Missing Power
Henyo
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

ASTEEG(tagalog for awesome.)
informative wall of texts. and yeah, i agree with this part
I do not have a problem with the IDEA of stories that portray established characters as gay, but with the EXECUTION. As I said at the time, I wouldn't have a problem with a story that had Trowa and Quatre get together, provided it respected the source material and actual characterization. The problem is that very few stories actually do, and will instead go to insane lengths to justify hooking up two guys.
A few years ago, Marvel Comics outed Northstar (a member of the Canadian super-team Alpha Flight), and in doing so destroyed his character. Before the reveal, he was a well-rounded person; afterwards, every single sentence out of his mouth HAD to remind you that he was gay. In cases like this, it feels like the writers don't understand that homosexual people are, surprisingly enough, PEOPLE. It's not like every waking moment of their lives is spent in pursuit of sex; they have jobs, hang out with friends, read books, own pets, and do everything else that straight people do.
this part too. an LGBT site i happened upon said the same thing. on the subject of a Marvel character, what about Iceman? he was outed this year right? (they made the homo subext on the movies comic canon right?)
oi and yuri stories are written for heterosexual audiences indulging in fantasy, not people who are actual LGBT in origin.
this is the closest aversion i could find. from the review of Okazu.
Strawberry Shake manga - this is a groundbreaking series. A Yuri series for Yuri magazine by a woman who has been drawing Yuri comedy for a long, long time. A must-have for any fan of Yuri.”
Last edited by Henyo on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!
User avatar
AmuroNT1
Posts: 3420
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:41 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Yeah, Iceman was outed, but the problem is it was handled very poorly. What happened was, the teenage versions of the original X-Men were brought to the present (because comic books), and Jean Grey basically outed Iceman by saying "I can read your mind, I know you're gay." In order to make this jive with the fact that Iceman has always been portrayed as straight, it's suggested that his modern self "got over it" or repressed it (the idea that he might be bisexual was shot down by Jean and her mind-reading).

Part of the problem is, as I said before, there was absolutely no indication at any point in the character's 50-year history that he was gay, and they had to come up with excuses to explain that away. And the other part is, obviously, that it was done in such a ham-fisted way and feels less like showing who the character really is and more like rewriting an existing character for the sake of adding another token minority to the universe.

As for the movies, there wasn't really any gay subtext there; Iceman was put into a relationship with Rogue. I think maybe people just read too much into his rivalry with Pyro.
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

-Touhou 07.5 ~ Immaterial and Missing Power
Henyo
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

AmuroNT1 wrote:Yeah, Iceman was outed, but the problem is it was handled very poorly. What happened was, the teenage versions of the original X-Men were brought to the present (because comic books), and Jean Grey basically outed Iceman by saying "I can read your mind, I know you're gay." In order to make this jive with the fact that Iceman has always been portrayed as straight, it's suggested that his modern self "got over it" or repressed it (the idea that he might be bisexual was shot down by Jean and her mind-reading).

Part of the problem is, as I said before, there was absolutely no indication at any point in the character's 50-year history that he was gay, and they had to come up with excuses to explain that away. And the other part is, obviously, that it was done in such a ham-fisted way and feels less like showing who the character really is and more like rewriting an existing character for the sake of adding another token minority to the universe.

As for the movies, there wasn't really any gay subtext there; Iceman was put into a relationship with Rogue. I think maybe people just read too much into his rivalry with Pyro.
whoa. kinda like out of Fujoshi fanfic. that outing...makes me wonder how anime/manga, if ever, handle coming out of the closet. gotta read that Sasameki Koto coming out scene again.

this season we have 2 Yaoi titles.
Junjou romantica(season 3! is this any good?)
Makura no danshi - this one is 4 minutes only. no harm in trying! :D

and i so have to finish seasons 2 and 4 of Maria-sama ga Miteru.
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!
User avatar
Android raptor
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:33 am
Location: THE STATE OF GEORGIAAAAAAAAAA

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

I've heard nothing but bad things about Junjo Romantica from reliable sources. I hear even for yaoi its bad, and is really awful on the front of glamorizing abusive relationships. You might as well just watch 50 Shades or Twilight.

One thing I wish more fanfic authors would do is acknowlege bisexuality as a thing. That way they can pair characters in same sex relationships without having to disregard any canon het relationships they might have. Especially since bi erasure is a pretty big problem even within queer communities, so having bi characters in things can't hurt.

I also like to play around with one-sided attractions, unhealthy relationships (that arent glamorized), poly relationships, and other things that I feel might fit certain characters. I really wish more fic authors did the same.
Let me show you my Pokemons!
Liking characters no one else does since 1989.
Henyo
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Android raptor wrote:I've heard nothing but bad things about Junjo Romantica from reliable sources. I hear even for yaoi its bad, and is really awful on the front of glamorizing abusive relationships. You might as well just watch 50 Shades or Twilight.

One thing I wish more fanfic authors would do is acknowlege bisexuality as a thing. That way they can pair characters in same sex relationships without having to disregard any canon het relationships they might have. Especially since bi erasure is a pretty big problem even within queer communities, so having bi characters in things can't hurt.

I also like to play around with one-sided attractions, unhealthy relationships (that arent glamorized), poly relationships, and other things that I feel might fit certain characters. I really wish more fic authors did the same.
agreed on the Bisexuality. that could be used for more interesting developments.
one sided attractions..Akogare comes to mind. the super extreme adoration to someone that could be mistaken for romantic feelings.

and here i thought Romantica was along the lines of Marimite.(4 anime Seasons of Yuri Baby!)
guess i'll fall back to Hitohira and Strawberry Panic. the latter was the very first Yuri anime i finished.
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!
User avatar
BrentD15
Posts: 961
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:36 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

AmuroNT1 wrote:Yeah, I'm pretty much of the same mind as Kirby and Zeonista when it comes to yaoi and yuri. (Before I start on this little rant, I feel the need to clarify that I myself am straight, but support gay rights.)

I discussed this years ago when I was on Gundamn for the Wing recap episode: I do not have a problem with the IDEA of stories that portray established characters as gay, but with the EXECUTION. As I said at the time, I wouldn't have a problem with a story that had Trowa and Quatre get together, provided it respected the source material and actual characterization. The problem is that very few stories actually do, and will instead go to insane lengths to justify hooking up two guys. The joke I always tell is about Trowa being a handsome vampire who sweeps lonely rich kid Quatre off his feet, but the thing is, that's not a joke; it actually happened in a story I heard about. For a while, a friend of mine who was also a Wing fan had this "game" where he'd go on Fanfiction.net and just share with me the plot synopses of the fics tagged as yaoi, mostly because of the laughs we'd get out of how far removed they were from the actual plot and setting of the show.

It also made me laugh back in the day when I heard the yaoi fangirls who honestly believed that Japan is some kind of Wonderland where pretty men make out on the streets while girls like them cheer. The harsh reality is, Japan is a very closed-minded society in that regard, and homosexuality has even less of a foothold there than it does in the US. The only real reason for the proliferation of yaoi, yuri, boys' love and other media focusing on homosexual characters is entirely cynical: it makes the authors money. In effect, it's no different from the cheesy exploitation movies we got back in the 70s.

As for original stories featuring gay characters, the primary problem from my perspective is, it tends to be written by straight people, for the enjoyment of other straight people. And all too often this results in the characters having about as much depth as a kiddie pool. The example that always got under my skin was Family Guy; the creator and writers profess to be big gay rights supporters, yet every single gay character who shows up is horrendously stereotypical, with the men being catty, promiscuous, and worse (such as the implication that Brian's cousin's "husband" was actually just some poor guy who didn't speak English and was going to get raped), while the women are butch, perpetually angry man-haters.

The core of this seems to be the idea that if someone is gay, it dominates every aspect of their being. A few years ago, Marvel Comics outed Northstar (a member of the Canadian super-team Alpha Flight), and in doing so destroyed his character. Before the reveal, he was a well-rounded person; afterwards, every single sentence out of his mouth HAD to remind you that he was gay. In cases like this, it feels like the writers don't understand that homosexual people are, surprisingly enough, PEOPLE. It's not like every waking moment of their lives is spent in pursuit of sex; they have jobs, hang out with friends, read books, own pets, and do everything else that straight people do.

And unfortunately, I think this feeds back into the point about fanfiction: There are some people out there who don't WANT deep, human characterization. They just want to see two boys or two girls making out because it gets them hot. These also tend to be the people who see yaoi and yuri where it doesn't necessarily exist; a prime example that's already been mentioned here is Hibike! Euphonium, but it doesn't take much digging to find countless other shows where the fans are too busy reading between the lines for gay subtext to pay attention to what's actually happening on screen.

I guess if you wanted to me to summarize this rambling diatribe, I'd just say "Hate the player, not the game" - What bugs me isn't the concepts of yaoi or yuri themselves, but rather the vocal minority of fans and creators who I find disrespectful and narrow-minded. To those people I say, if you wanna watch gay porn, just be honest about it and don't act like there's some deeper significance to what you're doing. But at the same time, don't get all pissy with me because I refuse to call your stories full of mindless sex "art", or because I don't interpret two characters of the same sex having a five-minute conversation as iron-clad proof that they're in love. If you want my respect, write a GOOD story with a respectful portrayal of gay men and women, and then we'll talk.
I think this ties into how often sexual relationships are flanderised in certain fictional works, much like breast sizes. :P The creators draw too much attention to them when it isn't necessary (I bring up the breasts thing because, and I quote, "Tits have a way of making themselves known"). It would work so much better if they presented such relationships as matter-of-fact instead of some circus ringleader trying to make a spectacle out of them.
"To you who will watch, I offer a heart filled with gratitude." -Yoshiyuki Tomino, Gundam Reconguista in G, Episode 25
User avatar
MrMarch
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:58 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

AmuroNT1 wrote:Part of the problem is, as I said before, there was absolutely no indication at any point in the character's 50-year history that he was gay, and they had to come up with excuses to explain that away. And the other part is, obviously, that it was done in such a ham-fisted way and feels less like showing who the character really is and more like rewriting an existing character for the sake of adding another token minority to the universe.
Uh, isn’t that a bit like using the history of gay discrimination against the introduction of gay characters? I mean, if North America 70 years ago was where it’s at today with respect to recognition/inclusion of gay folks, we’d already have gay super hero characters (beyond those very few that did exist). I don’t see any way to avoid at least some “awkwardness” introducing MAJOR gay characters or changing existing MAJOR characters gay given that such characters were very limited in scope and popularity until this current generation of comic book consumers.

I will agree that gay is trendy right now and can sometimes feel inorganic in entertainment. Alongside social progress, mainstream entertainment has found this new hook to rope in viewers/consumers. At times it feels like every show/movie/video game has to have a gay character. Perhaps it’s too cynical to think it’s all profit motivated; one can never underestimate the need for people to feel morally superior. I think a lot of folks feel guilt about what’s been done to gay folks for most of our 5,000 years of history or maybe they are just really motivated to be “inclusive” going forward. But like you said, its feeling forced at times. And the focus on it is problematic as well. Like others have said, the gya characters become defined by their gayness rather than their humanity. The point of these characters is that they are just like everyone else, merely a different sexual orientation.
User avatar
AmuroNT1
Posts: 3420
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:41 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Maybe it's cynical, but I feel like a lot of comics decisions are made for profit-based reasons, often to the point where any semblance of logic goes out the window - and it's not just decisions relating to hot-button issues like homosexuality.

Consider a few years ago when Marvel had the Decimation event, which de-powered a vast majority of the world's mutants in order to reassert the idea that they're isolated in "a world that fears and hates them". Even though there were only about 200 mutants after that event, the closest you got to big names were people like Blob and Jubilee; absolutely none of the A-listers who sell comics like Wolverine and Deadpool were affected.

Over on the other side, we have the well-publicized case of DC slapping Starfire of the Teen Titans into a skimpy outfit (when they weren't finding excuses to strip her naked entirely) and had her sleep around with any guy she met. When a young girl who got into comics through the Teen Titans cartoon wrote DC and asked about it, their official response amounted to "We're not writing comics for YOU," suggesting that it was done entirely to appeal to the stereotypical lonely perv fanboy. Over time they've given Kori more clothing and had her enter a monogamous relationship with Roy Harper, but still feels like they only did it because people complained rather than genuinely feeling contrite.

Now, I think my main issue with the outing of Iceman is how forced it was. If the issue had been handed with any degree of grace or actual character development/exploration it'd be a different story. But they just had Jean Grey walk up to Bobby and say "You're gay. I don't care if you had girlfriends in the past, you're gay now. No, you can't be bisexual, you're just gay." In this situation you can almost see Jean as a stand-in for Marvel's editors, forcing a new status quo and hand-waving away any possible debate.

There are certainly well-written and interesting gay characters in comics today (a prime example is Batwoman), but given the way the Big Two companies tend to announce character outings by shouting them from the rooftops, it feels less like actual development and more like humble-bragging in the hopes that people will praise them for being open-minded and progressive.
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

-Touhou 07.5 ~ Immaterial and Missing Power
User avatar
MrMarch
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:58 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Well, we live in a compromised society, so we're kinda forced to take the bad with the good because so rarely do we get good for goods sake. I simply didn't want to be so cynical. Just because someone has a profit motive that doesn't make them wrong, just their reason for doing so. It also doesn't mean that good can't come of it all. I agree, the motives are ugly and I dislike moral grandstanding of some in these comic companies, but there can be a silver lining.

Making the Iceman character gay - even in the most ham-fisted way imaginable - is still a step forward however unbalanced. It doesn't eternally invalidate the character unless you want it to. Look at the exploitation of black super heros in their early days? Or the sexual exploitation of female super heros even today? Or the horrible dated stereotypes of someone like Marvel's villain Mandarin. Eventually writers came along later down the line and wrote them all as legitimate, respectable characters. But a black superhero had to exist first. Or a female superhero. Or an asian villain. So too will that eventually happen for the gay superheros.

Besides, even the smartest writers have trouble writing outside their own perspective. Look at Aaron Sorkin and his problematic views on women. It may take a while before writers form good habits when writing gay characters.
User avatar
Android raptor
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:33 am
Location: THE STATE OF GEORGIAAAAAAAAAA

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

While I don't know much about comics, from the sounds of it there's a lot of tokenism going on with those characters. IMHO, token "representation" is worse than no representation at all since it presents a shallow, stereotyped, and highly unrealistic version of whatever minority. Of course it can also motivate other writers to include characters of x minority who arent tokens, but still.

That said, weren't Loki and Deadpool recently word of god confirmed as bi? Something that with the former fits in to the mythology the character was inspired by and the latter had been hinted for years? From the sounds of it Marvel might finally be on the right path in how it depicts LGBTQ characters, especially given the popularity of those two.

On an unrelated note my main complaint about yuri is how much of it is schoolgirl/slice of life. I've never been much for those genres and that's the main reason I haven't seen many yuri series. I'm just glad for series like Noir, Madoka, and Utena (which everyone needs to watch, preferably multiple times. No lie, I think its one of the most important anime series of all time) which have yuri undertones and have more diverse genres.

Btw how does everyone feel about sharing lgbtq headcanons?
Let me show you my Pokemons!
Liking characters no one else does since 1989.
Henyo
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: Yuri and Yaoi

Android raptor wrote: On an unrelated note my main complaint about yuri is how much of it is schoolgirl/slice of life. I've never been much for those genres and that's the main reason I haven't seen many yuri series. I'm just glad for series like Noir, Madoka, and Utena (which everyone needs to watch, preferably multiple times. No lie, I think its one of the most important anime series of all time) which have yuri undertones and have more diverse genres.

Btw how does everyone feel about sharing lgbtq headcanons?
i'm all for sharing comrade. although i'm more familiar lesbian than gay characters.

you could try the Iczer series. mechas + aliens + yuri. the third one, Iczelion, is what i think is one of the inspirations for Syphogear.
Simoun, from what i've read, is also good. setting is on a planet where everyone is born female. once they reach a specific age they can choose to remain female or become a man.

on a related note: what are your opinions on Macross Frontier's Bobby and Tiger and Bunny's Fire Emblem?
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!
Post Reply