Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formations

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monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

toysdream wrote:As also noted above, a prime minister is BY DEFINITION a member of the legislature who serves as head of government (but not head of state).
So does the UC Federation represent a single government of a global nation or is it more heterogeneous like the United Nations?
degwin_zabi
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

Alright, alright. I think I'm getting it.

Well, from what I understand, no individual nations were mentioned throughout the continuity.
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

monster wrote:
toysdream wrote:As also noted above, a prime minister is BY DEFINITION a member of the legislature who serves as head of government (but not head of state).
So does the UC Federation represent a single government of a global nation or is it more heterogeneous like the United Nations?
From the animation, it would appear that the Earth Federation is a single world government; I'm not sure if there's anything to suggest that in its early days it was a more UN-type body which gradually dissolved the individual member nations, but the fact that there was a Prime Minister of the Earth Federation in the immediate build up to UC 0001 would suggest that by that point at least, the Federation was a unified body.
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monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

Ok, in which case the Prime Minister should be both Head of Government and Head of State, like the US President.
toysdream
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

Then they'd be called a "president".

Just because we've never seen a person identified as the Federation's head of state doesn't mean that no such person exists. But in the meantime, all we know is that they have (or had) a head of government, i.e. a prime minister (首相 in Japanese).

-- Mark
monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

toysdream wrote:Then they'd be called a "president".

Just because we've never seen a person identified as the Federation's head of state doesn't mean that no such person exists. But in the meantime, all we know is that they have (or had) a head of government, i.e. a prime minister (首相 in Japanese).

-- Mark
Not necessarily, assuming the prime minister had taken on the role of head of state, they could've chosen not to change the title.

Sure, it's possible that the head of state has simply never been mentioned, but if even the position of the prime minister had been reduced by UC 0079, it's possible that it's a slow process that began with removing the position of head of state as a separate position.
degwin_zabi
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

This may sound insane, but after looking at all of this, I kind of feel bad that I graduated high school. That's so much a person learns, but can forget. Anyway, maybe this can help the distinction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_state
toysdream
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

Yes, that's exactly the distinction we've been talking about. The theory that the Federation has no head of state because there are no other nations to represent it to, as suggested by Dendribium Stamen, is still a pretty good one. In many modern nations, the head of state does virtually nothing anyway.

-- Mark
degwin_zabi
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

In some cases, of course, but I can imagine a kind of election or appointment among the Federal assembly. The lack of a central leader just has a ring of anarchism to it, which with the Titans and other tyrants would make things more problematic. Were not like the geth from Mass Effect. Our consensus isn't as universal, you see? I'm sorry, it's a lot to process and sometimes it's a bit hard for me to find the right words.
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

But you don't need a head of state to run a government. The Queen of England does diddly-squat, and there are numerous nations in the British Commonwealth - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc - that share her ornamental services as head of state. In practical terms she has virtually no involvement whatsoever in the operation of these countries, and they get along just fine being run by their respective prime ministers.

Really, if you continue reading up on the real-world meaning of these terms, you'll find that the scenario we're faced with in Gundam isn't that strange. The modern U.S. system is just one among many.

-- Mark
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

I've honestly long suspected that the Earth Federation lacks a head of government as well as a head of state. No one to that effect is ever mentioned, even in the heavily-political parts of the franchise, like the arc in Zeta where Char gives a speech to the Federation Assembly. If there's a head of government with real power, then that's certainly someone they'd want on their side -- while if there's a head of state, even if they're just a figurehead with no real power, then you'd probably want them on your side just for the symbolic boost. The fact that they're not mentioned at any point seems conspicuous enough that it seems likely to me that they don't exist.

It would also go a long way to explain why the Federation government is just a bureaucratic quagmire. If there's no executive of any sort, then the whole thing is literally run by committee, which is not exactly a recipe for quick response to rapidly changing conditions.
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monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

toysdream wrote:Yes, that's exactly the distinction we've been talking about. The theory that the Federation has no head of state because there are no other nations to represent it to, as suggested by Dendribium Stamen, is still a pretty good one. In many modern nations, the head of state does virtually nothing anyway.

-- Mark
A head of state doesn't need to represent a state to other state, but to just his/her own people. The question isn't whether a state has its own head, but whether it's filled by a different person(s) than the one that is filling the head of government.
degwin_zabi
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:I've honestly long suspected that the Earth Federation lacks a head of government as well as a head of state. No one to that effect is ever mentioned, even in the heavily-political parts of the franchise, like the arc in Zeta where Char gives a speech to the Federation Assembly. If there's a head of government with real power, then that's certainly someone they'd want on their side -- while if there's a head of state, even if they're just a figurehead with no real power, then you'd probably want them on your side just for the symbolic boost. The fact that they're not mentioned at any point seems conspicuous enough that it seems likely to me that they don't exist.

It would also go a long way to explain why the Federation government is just a bureaucratic quagmire. If there's no executive of any sort, then the whole thing is literally run by committee, which is not exactly a recipe for quick response to rapidly changing conditions.
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monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

degwin_zabi wrote:Is it okay if I blame the real world people in charge for not thinking this far ahead. Not that I mean to insult them, but it's true.
They probably intended not to put a face to the Federation in order to distance the audience from them. The main struggle is between the little guys from the Federation (even though they have the higher manpower, I believe) against the big bad Zeon. So you put a face to Zeon so the audience knows that the war is over when they are killed, but the Federation is just there. Even when it's the Federation who is at fault, they centered it around the subgroup Titans.
degwin_zabi
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

Maybe, but you'd think that in a Zeta episode that included the Federal Assembly, there'd be at least an unnamed guy referred to as "Mr. President", or whatever. I wouldn't ask for a complete list of every head of state/government that's ever led the entire Earth or a lot of things that would make Gundam very much like Star Wars' EU, but some things can't necessarily be interpreted correctly by the audience alone. I didn't even consider that Gihren was so disenfranchised with his family because he got too full himself with his intellect, athletic skills, and so called vision until an associate of mine told me that a few days ago.
monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

degwin_zabi wrote:Maybe, but you'd think that in a Zeta episode that included the Federal Assembly, there'd be at least an unnamed guy referred to as "Mr. President", or whatever. I wouldn't ask for a complete list of every head of state/government that's ever led the entire Earth or a lot of things that would make Gundam very much like Star Wars' EU, but some things can't necessarily be interpreted correctly by the audience alone.
What needs to be interpreted correctly?
I didn't even consider that Gihren was so disenfranchised with his family because he got too full himself with his intellect, athletic skills, and so called vision until an associate of mine told me that a few days ago.
How is that relevant?
degwin_zabi
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

monster wrote:
degwin_zabi wrote:Maybe, but you'd think that in a Zeta episode that included the Federal Assembly, there'd be at least an unnamed guy referred to as "Mr. President", or whatever. I wouldn't ask for a complete list of every head of state/government that's ever led the entire Earth or a lot of things that would make Gundam very much like Star Wars' EU, but some things can't necessarily be interpreted correctly by the audience alone.
What needs to be interpreted correctly?
I didn't even consider that Gihren was so disenfranchised with his family because he got too full himself with his intellect, athletic skills, and so called vision until an associate of mine told me that a few days ago.
How is that relevant?
I meant that last part as an example of the things that TV and such require the audience to explain for them. It's kind of an advantage novels have over films, you see?
monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

degwin_zabi wrote:I meant that last part as an example of the things that TV and such require the audience to explain for them. It's kind of an advantage novels have over films, you see?
Ok, but I still don't see the need to identify the Federation's head of government/state. Like I said, the focus of the story is not at the very top of the Federation.
degwin_zabi
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

I'm not asking for the character himself or herself, just what title it is.
monster
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Re: Discrepancies in Gundam political and military formation

degwin_zabi wrote:I'm not asking for the character himself or herself, just what title it is.
Yes, that's also what identifying means. If you must have a title, then just use Prime Minister as that's already been shown. Otherwise, it's still not relevant to the story, so I think that's the best you're going to get until a future UC work decides to do something about it.
Last edited by monster on Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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