Dragonball Super

[Lord Dearche]

New TV series confirmed after almost 20 years. It's going to follow Battle of Gods and FREEZA, FREEZA FREEZA FREEZAAAAAAAAA, so yeah, GT is pretty much officiall non canon entirely now.
http://www.toei-animation.com/en/conten ... ball_super

Yes I know there's that other thread but that's seemingly a general shounen thready with DB, this one is specifically for this new show.

[Raikoh]

I heard GT is one of the twelve universes Beerus mentions in Battle of Gods, so it's still semi-canon unfortunately.

The new Dragon Ball stuff has been rather good. Battle of Gods was awesome and Revival of "F" looks great (and return of best antagonist). Toriyama doesn't seem to be writing, but if he came up with the plot then things should turn out okay. I await the details with bated breath.

[Lord Dearche]

It's not, it's just now non canon. Toriyama simply wanted to get rid of it since it wasn't his work. Even in Xenoverse it's non canon and they simply refer to it as an "alternate" timeline to have it in the game.

Another issue that BoGs brought up was the stupid saiyen feetus with a pure heart thing. Uh....Bra is older than Pan, where the hell was she? They also established Vegeta's brother as canon.

[monster]

Oh wow, and I loved GT too. Well, I hope I don't need to watch any of the movies to get into this new series.

[Raikoh]

Another issue that BoGs brought up was the stupid saiyen feetus with a pure heart thing. Uh....Bra is older than Pan, where the hell was she? They also established Vegeta's brother as canon.

If my sources are accurate, one of the Daizenshuu places Pan's birthdate as 779 and Bra's as 780.

And they mentioned Tarble but said he was in some podunk in the middle of nowhere, not nearly the kind of guy they could get to help on such short notice. And no, Goku shouldn't be able to just Instant Transmission to Tarble because he's so far away and his ki signature is too weak.

[Destiny_Gundam]

GT was far from terrible. The first bit when they were just collecting dragon balls was a bit dull, sure, but once the big fights started up again it was your typical Dragonball affair.

[Henyo]

this announcement surprised me. really. it's like the shonen series form the 80s are making a comback and saying to the current series' "THIS! IS! SHONEN!"(not that i have absolute hate for the current batch of series.)

gotta get myself used to japanese Goku then. tagalog Goku's voice is pretty stuck in my head. GT Kid Goku is also Doreamon's Nobita. one reason its hard to get used to the original japanese.

[Raikoh]

gotta get myself used to japanese Goku then. tagalog Goku's voice is pretty stuck in my head. GT Kid Goku is also Doreamon's Nobita. one reason its hard to get used to the original japanese.

I feel ya. I always watch Dragon Ball dubbed even though I barely watch any dubs and I have some pretty strong animosity towards Funimation. I considered watching it subbed, but every time I hear any of Goku's family members voices, I just think "NOPE I'll just wait for a dub"

I get why they do it but it just doesn't sound right having an old lady's voice come out of them and for each member of the family to share the same voice when even Funimation with their approx. five talented voice actors can manage to give them different actors.

[AmuroNT1]

The issue with Bra is nothing new; Daizenshuu 7 lists her year of birth as Age 778 while the GT Perfect Files list it as Age 780. It wasn't an issue in Z, where she only appears near the very end as a young child, but it became a lot more important in GT when she's shown acting like a typical teenager (and getting hit on by grown men) despite the fact that she's 12 at the oldest.

Also, the thing with Xenoverse is that Future Trunks is the one who calls it an alternate timeline, because he never experienced those events personally. But we already knew that he came from an alternate timeline, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything; in the same game, he doesn't know about Beerus either.

However, it seems that they were indeed implying that GT didn't happen in these last couple of movies, which were written with involvement by Toriyama. If you remember, GT kicked off because Pilaf was trying to make a wish, Goku interrupted him, and Pilaf angrily shouted "I wish you were a little kid again so I could beat you up!" In Battle of Gods, Pilaf and his minions are children, which implies that he got to make his wish this time around (and it didn't go at all as planned). However, shifting events so it happened during the ten-year gap between Buu's defeat and the end of Z means Pilaf could easily have used the regular Dragon Balls rather than the Black-Star DBs.

[Raikoh]

The Black Star Dragon Balls were some of the most ridiculous things in the entirety of GT (which is really saying something) and heavily contradict the point. You know, namely the idea that they blow up your planet in a year (and they're made by the planet's Guardian?), which is almost assuredly to happen unless you have a really good Dragon Radar AND the ability to traverse space at great speeds (which means ONLY Earth), plus the idea of them being made by a Namekian who hasn't split its good and evil halves doesn't hold water when there were no Black Star Dragon Balls on NAMEK even though Guru never split (as far as I know).

The question still goes to follow, though, is whether or not GT is an alternate timeline or one of the twelve dimensions. Until we figure out what these other dimensions are like (which I'm betting will happen in Super) we don't know if they follow the "similar with minute changes" dimensions (like a lot of American comic books' alternate dimensions) or "completely different" (like Orguss) definitions.

Either way, GT was at the least rendered irrelevant by Battle of Gods since it's pretty obvious that Beerus was stronger than the Shadow Dragons (Shenron's reaction to seeing him).

[AmuroNT1]

The main issue with the BSDBs was that the Nameless Namekian was much more powerful, which allowed the dark Shenlong to grant greater wishes. And the "dark side" component came about because Nameless was one of the vanishingly rare Namekians to have any kind of evil side, which the series attributes to his growing up on Earth and seeing all the horrors that humanity can achieve, etc. etc.

Still, as maligned as GT was, I did actually like the idea that there were negative consequences to overusing the Dragon Balls. I've been watching DB Kai lately, and it's starting to really bug me how the cast leans on the Dragon Balls to solve all their problems. It's especially bad in the Buu Saga, where the complete eradication of humanity is treated as no big deal because "We can bring them back".

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

The main issue with the BSDBs was that the Nameless Namekian was much more powerful, which allowed the dark Shenlong to grant greater wishes. And the "dark side" component came about because Nameless was one of the vanishingly rare Namekians to have any kind of evil side, which the series attributes to his growing up on Earth and seeing all the horrors that humanity can achieve, etc. etc.

Still, as maligned as GT was, I did actually like the idea that there were negative consequences to overusing the Dragon Balls. I've been watching DB Kai lately, and it's starting to really bug me how the cast leans on the Dragon Balls to solve all their problems. It's especially bad in the Buu Saga, where the complete eradication of humanity is treated as no big deal because "We can bring them back".

Agreed, it did really feel that the cast came to rely so heavily on the Dragon Balls. Whenever there seemed to be a lot of doubt or worry about something, it's "Don't worry, we can <whatever> with the Dragon Balls!", so it was nice that there was a such a downside to using them so much. Well, not so much as using them numerically in general, but using them so much in such short amounts of time in between each use, before the built up negative energy within them has had a chance to dissipate.

I also wonder if perhaps that could've been a reason for Porunga being the way he was aside from simply being different; having an Eternal Dragon that is both more powerful, yet not at the same time, as Shenlong; more powerful in that he could grant three wishes as opposed to just one (or two in terms of Dende's Dragon Balls), could revive people more than once regardless of how, and the Dragon Balls would be restored after three months instead of a year, but it came at the cost of Porunga not being able to do any sort of mass revivals, only able to revive people one at a time and, of course, the way he was made meant that you could only summon him and make your wish in native Namekian, ensuring only Namekians could use them (which is ironic since, aside from the Dragon Balls turning to stone if their creator dies, even if Frieza or Vegeta had managed to collect all seven on Namek, they would've been useless to them since they tended to kill the Namekians after getting them, so it would've left no one to talk for them).

[HEDGESMFG]

Here's the thing with the whole GT/canon issue.

Any speculation that GT's been replaced by Super is literally just that, speculation and western fan rage. We're literally hearing nothing but "I don't like it so thank god Super will make it non-canon."

Am I saying that Super WON'T render it non-canon? No. Am I saying the 2 movies don't already render it questionable? Also no. But we don't yet know enough to say that's the case. The simple truth is that until we know where in the timeline Super is set, or until an official statement is made, fans can't assume anything. Maybe the god/super god forms are just stopovers until SS4. Maybe they're not. Dragon Ball Heroes is still using elements from GT.

In short, people need to wait until we have plot/timeline details before assuming anything. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling Super will fit somewhere in the gap before the end of Z, not long after Revival of F. Of course, that could easily be wrong, but we just don't know yet.

But GT is non-canon when they say it's non-canon. So far, like it or not, there has been nothing released that makes its occurrence absolutely impossible, yes, even with the Pilaf de-aging (which I'd argue is the strongest direct contradiction so far, but could just as easily be reversed if they wanted to).

[Lord Dearche]

Toriyama pretty much has it that Battle of Gods and Resurection of F make GT non canon.

[Raikoh]

Except it's been all but stated that Super Saiyan God is a superior transformation to SS4 based on the two fights we saw with Beerus.

SS4 is generally thought of adding a 10x multiplier to the power level while at SS3 (though considering Golden Oozaru has either a 500x or 1000x multiplier - depending on whether the original Saiyan was in SS1 or SS2 - and was about equal to SS4 Goku, giving SS4 a 4000x multiplier may not be accurate). We don't know how much power Beerus was using during his utter obliteration of SS3 Goku, but considering it was one finger it's probably not even 5% (and that's being generous) while his fight with Super Saiyan God Goku brought him up to let's say 50% (while Goku was going by his own admission about 80%) and at maximum he went all the way up to 70%. Just by that alone it can be believed that Super Saiyan God is just a higher improvement than SS4, even with the time limit. Either way, the sparse numbers we're given in addition to what we know about multipliers suggests SS4 would be a step down from God outside of the time limit.

Also, the more interesting thing is that Super Saiyan God altered Goku, drastically boosting his power just by being in the form once. I think that alone is what set it apart from the other Super Saiyan forms. It's true that most characters have tended to get a boost just by being able to transform but it was never as drastic as turning God allowing Goku to fight Beerus while only in Super Saiyan 1.

Plus, I think Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically the last transformation we'll be seeing (unless Toriyama wants to do more stuff with all the colors of the rainbow, or make SSGSS2 and SSGSS3).

[Lord Dearche]

One is a god. Almost on par with Beerus. The other, was just another level that gave a boost which quickly didn't last long when Baby went Oozaru.

And these multipliers you speak of don't exist. Nowhere was this stated anywhere or in anything that any form multiplies into anything.

[Raikoh]

Daizenshuu states that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier. This is supported by evidence in that Freeza at max power was 120 million and Super Saiyan Goku was 150 million. Extended material states that Goku at the start of the Freeza battle was 3 million. It makes sense - his power level against Ginyu was at somewhere around 200,000 (he got to at least 180,000 powering up for an instant without even using Kaio-ken) and he never had any trouble in that fight suggesting his maximum would be much higher - plus he got a Zenkai boost after the body change. Super Saiyan 2 adds another x2 making it a x100. Super Saiyan 3 adds a x4 to make it a x400 multiplier.

Vegeta says that Oozaru is a x10 multiplier to a Saiyan's power level. That means Golden Oozaru is, logically, just stacking the Oozaru multiplier with a Super Saiyan multiplier.

There was never an official listed multiplier for SS4, though. I've just dug up that speculation is something like a x10 in addition to the previous Super Saiyan multipliers.