Most idealistic and Most Cynical Gundam Series

[Nikkolas]

And the fact Amruo's legendary accomplishments are all ignored and he's kept under house arrest? Why are they doing that for him and him alone of the White Base crew?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Because he's a newtype and they're afraid of letting him use that to whip up another spacenoid rebellion -- you know, like Haman and Char actually do? But the fact that the Federation proper keeps close tabs on Amuro has very little to do with the fact that the Titans gassed a colony. Char's not wrong about the Federation being wary of newtypes, he's wrong about the fact that they gassed the colony because they're wary of newtypes.

[Nikkolas]

Well that's fair enough. I can agree with that.

[monster]

And the fact Amruo's legendary accomplishments are all ignored and he's kept under house arrest? Why are they doing that for him and him alone of the White Base crew?

It's all about control. The rest of the White Base crew isn't really anything special.

The Federation just can't help it that most if not all newtypes they encountered are either on the side of the enemy and/or are civilians who got involved temporarily. They were actually lucky with Amuro. I think it's just the Titans/Federation at the time between MSG and Zeta that was suspicious of him due to how Zeon used Newtypes. The Gundam in War in the Pocket was intended for Amuro, and Amuro was in good standing with the Federation again by the time of Char's Counterattack.

Either way, Newtypes are too few in numbers to be considered the Federation's primary targets as a group.

[latenlazy]

Amuro was in good standing with the Federation again by the time of Char's Counterattack.

Either way, Newtypes are too few in numbers to be considered the Federation's primary targets as a group.

Not quite. The Londo Bell task force was created in part to keep people like Amuro and Bright from advancing in the regular EFSF and exert a degree of control and oversight over their activity. For their experience and accomplishments, both were clearly far more qualified for greater positions of power than they were given.

To add a bit more to what others have said, while Newtypes individually weren't the Federation's primary targets, as Gundam UC makes very clear newtype ideology was. The ideology itself was dangerous to the Federation for its ability to incite the kinds of challenges to its power that we saw over and over again in UC.

And the fact Amruo's legendary accomplishments are all ignored and he's kept under house arrest? Why are they doing that for him and him alone of the White Base crew?

Amuro wasn't singled out. Most of the White Base crew went off to live civilian lives. Bright, the only guy I can recall who stuck around in the EFSF, was stuck in a position where he was clearly overqualified for, and where it was clear he was either being under appreciated or deliberately being supervised/watched/controlled at the start of Zeta. This becomes a theme for Bright and Amuro throughout their years of military service. It's even briefly hinted at by Char in CCA.

[monster]

Not quite. The Londo Bell task force was created in part to keep people like Amuro and Bright from advancing in the regular EFSF and exert a degree of control and oversight over their activity. For their experience and accomplishments, both were clearly far more qualified for greater positions of power than they were given.

Sure, but considering the fact that Amuro and Bright did go against the Titans, which was a legitimate branch of the Federation, I'd say they still got a good position with Londo Bell.

[latenlazy]

Not quite. The Londo Bell task force was created in part to keep people like Amuro and Bright from advancing in the regular EFSF and exert a degree of control and oversight over their activity. For their experience and accomplishments, both were clearly far more qualified for greater positions of power than they were given.

Sure, but considering the fact that Amuro and Bright did go against the Titans, which was a legitimate branch of the Federation, I'd say they still got a good position with Londo Bell.

Regardless, it highlights the mistrust the Federation has for people like Amuro and Bright. This is also expanded on a little in the novel for Gundam UC.

[monster]

Regardless, it highlights the mistrust the Federation has for people like Amuro and Bright. This is also expanded on a little in the novel for Gundam UC's.

The point is, it's still a lot better than what they were doing pre-Zeta.

[latenlazy]

Regardless, it highlights the mistrust the Federation has for people like Amuro and Bright. This is also expanded on a little in the novel for Gundam UC's.

The point is, it's still a lot better than what they were doing pre-Zeta.

Sure, but the point was that it's dubious whether you can regard it as "good standing".

[monster]

Sure, but the point was that it's dubious whether you can regard it as "good standing".

As good a standing (or even better) as a former resistance fighter could hope for.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The Londo Bell task force was created in part to keep people like Amuro and Bright from advancing in the regular EFSF and exert a degree of control and oversight over their activity. For their experience and accomplishments, both were clearly far more qualified for greater positions of power than they were given.

Hm? I've never heard that suggested before. My take on Londo Bell was always that it was meant to fill the same role that the Titans were originally created for -- to police the Earth Sphere for Zeon remnants and other armed anti-Federation groups. Of course, the Titans rapidly went off the rails and decided that they'd rather rule the Earth Sphere than police it, so Londo Bell is rather more constrained in terms of resources and authority in order to discourage them from doing the same.

Still, Londo Bell is essentially an independent fleet within the EFF, and it's clearly the elite branch. Most notably, it has newer and better ships and mobile suits than the main EFSF. If it was a dumping ground for politically unreliable soldiers that the EF none the less wanted to keep an eye on, you'd expect them to be issued old and outdated equipment and have their political overlords keep them on a tight leash. Instead they get shiny new Clop and Cailum class ships, their rank-and-file pilots are running Jegans while their aces get toys like the Re-GZ and the Nu, and they have enough operational independence to go off and fight Char even when the official party line is that Char is surrendering and no military response is needed.

Everything about them fits the mold of "elite independent anti-Zeon taskforce" much better than "make-work unit created to concentrate political undesirables in one place and keep a close eye on them".

[latenlazy]

The Londo Bell task force was created in part to keep people like Amuro and Bright from advancing in the regular EFSF and exert a degree of control and oversight over their activity. For their experience and accomplishments, both were clearly far more qualified for greater positions of power than they were given.

Hm? I've never heard that suggested before. My take on Londo Bell was always that it was meant to fill the same role that the Titans were originally created for -- to police the Earth Sphere for Zeon remnants and other armed anti-Federation groups. Of course, the Titans rapidly went off the rails and decided that they'd rather rule the Earth Sphere than police it, so Londo Bell is rather more constrained in terms of resources and authority in order to discourage them from doing the same.

Still, Londo Bell is essentially an independent fleet within the EFF, and it's clearly the elite branch. Most notably, it has newer and better ships and mobile suits than the main EFSF. If it was a dumping ground for politically unreliable soldiers that the EF none the less wanted to keep an eye on, you'd expect them to be issued old and outdated equipment and have their political overlords keep them on a tight leash. Instead they get shiny new Clop and Cailum class ships, their rank-and-file pilots are running Jegans while their aces get toys like the Re-GZ and the Nu, and they have enough operational independence to go off and fight Char even when the official party line is that Char is surrendering and no military response is needed.

Everything about them fits the mold of "elite independent anti-Zeon taskforce" much better than "make-work unit created to concentrate political undesirables in one place and keep a close eye on them".

I'll probably have to dig through some side material to figure out where I got the claim, but it did leave a big impression on me when I heard it. It could just be a Gundam UC retcon, but note that at least in UC the newest toys point seemed no longer completely true. That said giving them the newest toys is not necessarily in contradiction with being watched. It's easier to keep someone you're supervising obedient by treating them well rather than treating them badly, especially when the task force is composed of AEUG and Karaba veterans that have demonstrated an independence streak before. This is especially the case when you're already sending them off to the most dangerous missions in the Earth Sphere. I get the impression that Londo Bell has a higher casualty and attrition rate than the rest of the EFSF. If the federation were looking to award Bright and Amuro for their years of distinguished service they would have been put into comfier positions (though as Amuro's de facto house arrest in Zeta demonstrates that may not always mean trust. It's also about how much power they're given). I also get the impression (mostly through UC) that the Federation and EFSF are not monolithic, and that Londo Bell did get help and protection within certain arms of the government and military. I don't remember if I observed or deduced this conclusion, but it at least seemed to me that Londo Bell was a compromise, where they could be watched by those who didn't trust them and politically protected by those who appreciated these veterans. Would welcome some revision or clarification on these points.

[monster]

Well, the thing is, if trust is the issue, putting them in charge of preventing rebellion should've been the last thing the Federation would do. As former rebels themselves, it would undermine the Federation's effort to eliminate rebellion if the people in charge may be sympathetic to these anti-Federation causes.

So at the very least, even if it can be considered to be a position with no chance of gaining actual power within the Federation, it's still an important job to do, and one that carries with it an implicit trust that these people will do the right thing for the Federation.

So I still say they have a good standing with the Federation even it's not "worthy" of their accomplishments, which also happened to include being anti-government.

[latenlazy]

Well, the thing is, if trust is the issue, putting them in charge of preventing rebellion should've been the last thing the Federation would do. As former rebels themselves, it would undermine the Federation's effort to eliminate rebellion if the people in charge may be sympathetic to these anti-Federation causes.

So at the very least, even if it can be considered to be a position with no chance of gaining actual power within the Federation, it's still an important job to do, and one that carries with it an implicit trust that these people will do the right thing for the Federation.

So I still say they have a good standing with the Federation even it's not "worthy" of their accomplishments, which also happened to include being anti-government.

Londo Bell's personnel clearly would not have sided with the ideological extremists they were tasked to fight against just from their history. They were also clearly a rather small task force so there would be little risk of effective rebellion.

Your last point about incorporating their rebellion into how they're treated only makes sense if they weren't trusted.

[monster]

Londo Bell's personnel clearly would not have sided with the ideological extremists they were tasked to fight against just from their history. They were also clearly a rather small task force so there would be little risk of effective rebellion.

I don't think size is a good judge of the risk they could pose. After all, the White Base was only one ship.

Also, even if they may not side with some ideological extremists, that doesn't mean there isn't a cause that they wouldn't side with. The point is, if the Federation didn't trust them, they wouldn't take any chance with them getting into contact with rebels and potential rebels or their causes.

Your last point about incorporating their rebellion into how they're treated only makes sense if they weren't trusted.

It's more like they're trusted with the mission they're given, but no one in the Federation government is necessarily going to hail them as heroes. Still, that doesn't change the fact that they're (Amuro specifically) no longer being treated as if they're useless or simply dangerous and only needing to be watched over. Now, they're given actual responsibility and freedom to live their lives, etc.

[latenlazy]

I don't think size is a good judge of the risk they could pose. After all, the White Base was only one ship.

The White Base's exploits, while heroic, wasn't what defeated Zeon. They didn't do that much real damage to Zeon by themselves either. Furthermore the White Base was top of the line. Londo Bell's technology, while certainly good, wasn't really special by UC 0096.

Also, even if they may not side with some ideological extremists, that doesn't mean there isn't a cause that they wouldn't side with. The point is, if the Federation didn't trust them, they wouldn't take any chance with them getting into contact with rebels and potential rebels or their causes.

I'm not saying there wasn't something they wouldn't rebel against, but that it's more than unlikely they would collaborate with the group's they were tasked to hunt. Londo Bell was explicitly for Zeon remnants. One potential rebel group does not necessarily share common ground with another rebel group. In this case the ex AEUG and Karaba members had diametrically opposite causes to Zeon. It's clear the Federation used other forces for other kinds of subversive groups (ECOAS), so they weren't really taking any chances there.

It's more like they're trusted with the mission they're given, but no one in the Federation government is necessarily going to hail them as heroes. Still, that doesn't change the fact that they're (Amuro specifically) no longer being treated as if they're useless or simply dangerous and only needing to be watched over. Now, they're given actual responsibility and freedom to live their lives, etc.

[/quote]

Or one could see their approach as iterative and evolutionary. House arrest and demotion only encouraged deviant and rebellious behavior. At the same time these people at least demonstrated they weren't power grabbing ideologues, so a middle ground was struck where they could be useful and given some purpose and initiative, while still being watched and controlled.

[monster]

Or one could see their approach as iterative and evolutionary. House arrest and demotion only encouraged deviant and rebellious behavior. At the same time these people at least demonstrated they weren't power grabbing ideologues, so a middle ground was struck where they could be useful, given some purpose and initiative, while still being watched and controlled.

Well, if the NSA incident hasn't made it clear yet, governments do watch over people. As far as control, I believe Amuro decided to rejoin the Federation. He could've lived his life as a civilian.

So I don't think either aspect says anything necessarily about their standing with the Federation. They're allowed to live their lives like anybody else and even given important responsibilities.

[latenlazy]

Or one could see their approach as iterative and evolutionary. House arrest and demotion only encouraged deviant and rebellious behavior. At the same time these people at least demonstrated they weren't power grabbing ideologues, so a middle ground was struck where they could be useful, given some purpose and initiative, while still being watched and controlled.

Well, if the NSA incident hasn't made it clear yet, governments do watch over people. As far as control, I believe Amuro decided to rejoin the Federation. He could've lived his life as a civilian.

So I don't think either aspect says anything necessarily about their standing with the Federation. They're allowed to live their lives as anybody else and even given important responsibilities.

I somehow doubt Amuro wouldn't have continued to be watched over as a civilian, though they may have been more tactful about if that was the life he chose after.

If Londo Bell were less trusted than other military attaches and more scrutinized then that does suggest something about their standing.

[monster]

I somehow doubt Amuro wouldn't have continued to be watched over as a civilian, though they may have been more tactful about if that was the life he chose after.

Sure, governments do have their interests in intelligence gathering.

If Londo Bell were less trusted than other military attaches and more scrutinized then that does suggest something about their standing.

Maybe, although I didn't get that impression in CCA.

[latenlazy]

Maybe, although I didn't get that impression in CCA.

I didn't get that impression in CCA either, but I did get the impression that Londo Bell was overstretched and didn't get all the support they would have liked or needed on their missions. As I mentioned earlier, most of the rest of this impression was from Gundam UC and other content I read on the side (that was so long ago I can't really trace back now, tbh). It did make a lot of sense when I read it though, and given how the Federation is portrayed in Gundam UC, if it wasn't how Londo Bell's relationship with the rest of the Federation was originally conceived in CCA, it certainly seemed to have become this by the time Gundam UC was written.