Most idealistic and Most Cynical Gundam Series

[Nikkolas]

So back on topic, how would you all assess 0080? It's depressing yes but I dunno if I could call it cynical.

Also thinking more about it, Wing is pretty idealistic. I guess that's another trait it took from G.

[monster]

I don't think War in the Pocket is cynical at all. At the end of the day, there's a feeling that the kid will take this experience to heart and still have a bright future ahead.

[latenlazy]

The cynical/idealistic optimistic/pessimistic framework is a rather limited one that doesn't offer much substantive and meaningful insight. One of 0080's greatest traits is that it tries to stay away from such simplistic binaries, so I'm not sure we could make a call on this in any definitive way.

[Dark Duel]

So back on topic, how would you all assess 0080? It's depressing yes but I dunno if I could call it cynical.

Cynical? Absolutely not, in my opinion. Is it a sad story? Absolutely. It's a tragedy, in the absolute most literal sense of the term. But at the same time, it is not the least bit cynical, in my opinion.
At the same time, it is, in my view, probably one of the very few titles I have seen that I would describe as absolutely not idealistic. AT. ALL.
It's a series that takes a real hard look at not just a war, but the human consequences thereof on an emotional level, and how it shapes the interactions of its participants. Short though it may be, I know I'm not the only one who counts it among his favorites for exactly that reason.

[HellCat]

A friend once said 0083 was like talking Bernie's tape, smashing it and spitting on the remains. Not sure I'd go that far, since I think 0083 does a good job of showing a mix of personalities in Zeon with a focus on the hardline extremists and even Gato was shown to have doubts and regrets. I think there's a big difference between someone like that and Bernie, a young draftee clearly in over his head and trying to leave something positive behind for a kid he's about to give his life for.

Now MS IGLOO on the other hand, with it's oddly proud devotion to comparing OYW Zeon to Nazis and the Hitler Youth....

[Powerman293]

For idealistic, I'd say 00, both seasons and the Movie. Considering at the end of the movie everybody undergoes innovation, Setsuna becomes the Ultimate Innovator, the main pilots are still alive and well, and peace is accomplished between both the ELS and Humans, that's really optimistic.

For cynical, obviously Zeta.

[Erisie]

Perhaps the most cynical Gundam series of them all were SEED and Destiny. It's clear that the message the writing intended was one of peace, communion and all that shyte. The brutality displayed on screen, however, makes those ideas worthless. It's all empty preaching by Lacus and her cronies, who seem to be the only people in the whole CE who are interested in peace (although, some might argue, for their own selfish purposes).

There is no chance to even maintain a prolonged détenté in the Cosmic Era. Destiny ends with ZAFT making a peace treaty with Orb. The other global power, the Earth Alliance, was obliterated halfway through the series. Both sides of the conflict in SEED attemped to actively wipe out the other. Has there been any Gundam series before or after on which both sides in a war jump the gun to genocide? Apart from Stargazer and those Eurasian defectors that join ZAFT, we never see any Earth Alliance forces not being in league with the idea of killing Coordinators and their enablers.
You got your insane whackos that are OK with murdering civilians for a greater good, like Casval Deikun, Carozzo Ronah, Master Asia or Fezarl Ezelcant. But all of those examples have an ulterior, philosphical motivation that goes beyond the mass murder of other people for the sole reason of being "other people". Even during 0079, Zeon's brutality during the One Week War was rationalized as a means to an end. Collateral damage. Ditto for Stardust or the Titans' regime of terror.

[monster]

Perhaps the most cynical Gundam series of them all were SEED and Destiny.

I agree. After all, cynicism is the primary motivator for Rau and Durandal for wanting to destroy and control humanity, respectively. Destiny proved Rau right, and Kira admitted that Durandal was right as well, as far as their assessment of humanity is concerned (not necessarily their solutions).

[Erisie]

I agree. After all, cynicism is the primary motivator for Rau and Durandal for wanting to destroy and control humanity, respectively.

My argument is that all the cynicism present in SEED was accidental in nature. The "good protagonists" serve as mouthpieces for the writing and its message of peace and mutual understanding (which gets hammered on and on and on). A message that's in dissonance with the actual events of the series and their portrayal.

To exemplify what I'm saying, take a look at the work of somebody that is considered the worst director in history. No, not Mitsuo Fukuda: Ed Wood. His movies are cheap, poorly-made craptacular classics. Yet Wood's vision was grand and serious in tone, like if he never realized at any point how awful his movies actually were to audiences.

[monster]

My argument is that all the cynicism present in SEED was accidental in nature. The "good protagonists" serve as mouthpieces for the writing and its message of peace and mutual understanding (which gets hammered on and on and on). A message that's in dissonance with the actual events of the series and their portrayal.

To exemplify what I'm saying, take a look at the work of somebody that is considered the worst director in history. No, not Mitsuo Fukuda: Ed Wood. His movies are cheap, poorly-made craptacular classics. Yet Wood's vision was grand and serious in tone, like if he never realized at any point how awful his movies actually were to audiences.

Everybody wanted peace, they just had different solutions to achieve it. And mutual understanding wasn't really hammered.

Neither of which negates the cynicism which highly motivates the villains, as well as influencing the other side to one extent or another. I wouldn't call that as being accidental.

[Erisie]

Everybody wanted peace, they just had different solutions to achieve it.

You think? Does that include Blue Cosmos/LOGOS, Zala-era ZAFT and Rau?

And mutual understanding wasn't really hammered.

Of course it was. Did you watch the show? That's all the spiel of the "good" characters: Kira, Lacus, Athrun, Siegel Clyne, Uzumi Nara Attha...

Neither of which negates the cynicism which highly motivates the villains. I wouldn't call that as being accidental.

I'm speaking from the logic of the writing itself. The series wants to say (mainly through Lacus' preachy monologues) that mankind is good in nature and wishes for peace. But the events on-screen and their brutal nature contradict that notion.

as well as influencing the other side to one extent or another

Eh? I'm not following.

[monster]

You think? Does that include Blue Cosmos/LOGOS, Zala-era ZAFT and Rau?

Of course. That's what the word everybody means.

Of course it was. Did you watch the show? That's all the spiel of the "good" characters: Kira, Lacus, Athrun, Siegel Clyne, Uzumi Nara Attha...

I did, and they hardly talked about mutual understanding. They talked about peace and not being in such a hurry to get revenge, especially the kind that involves genocide.

Neither of which negates the cynicism which highly motivates the villains. I wouldn't call that as being accidental.

I'm speaking from the logic of the writing itself. The series wants to say (mainly through Lacus' preachy monologues) that mankind is good in nature and wishes for peace. But the events on-screen and their brutal nature contradict that notion.

as well as influencing the other side to one extent or another

Eh? I'm not following.

Lacus prepares weapons and soldiers to fight for her cause and is not at all a pacifist. She obviously doesn't think too highly of human nature. You can still realize the evilness in human nature while still wanting peace.

And while mankind can wish for peace, the show is also quick to point out that mankind can also wish for war, either for profit or some ideological divide.

[Erisie]

Of course. That's what the word everybody means.

Are you sure? At least in the case of Rau, his goal wasn't peace. His sole motivation was mankind destroying itself in the flames of war.

I did, and they hardly talked about mutual understanding. They talked about peace and not being in such a hurry to get revenge, especially the kind that involves genocide.

Every time Orb's politics were on the table, the discussion was about mutual understanding.

[monster]

Are you sure? At least in the case of Rau, his goal wasn't peace. His sole motivation was mankind destroying itself in the flames of war.

Because he has judged mankind to be hopelessly wicked. His version of peace is the end of humanity itself.

Every time Orb's politics were on the table, the discussion was about mutual understanding.

No, the discussion was usually on Orb being neutral and standing up to its beliefs and whether or not that would be beneficial to Orb. They don't expect other countries to understand Orb or for Orb to understand other countries.

[Erisie]

His version of peace is the end of humanity itself.

He, at no point whatsoever, talked about peace. You're trying to fit Rau's words in a way that it forcefully fits your argument.

Orb being neutral and standing up to its beliefs

They don't expect other countries to understand Orb or for Orb to understand other countries.

I'm talking about UNDERSTANDING (remember this, right?) between Naturals and Coordinators, which is one of the core "ideals" of Orb that Uzumi was constantly blabbering about.

[monster]

His version of peace is the end of humanity itself.

He, at no point whatsoever, talked about peace. You're trying to fit Rau's words in a way that it forcefully fits your argument.

He talks about human creating conflict and how bad it is. The end of humanity is his solution to that. So yes, I am interpreting that to be his version of peace.

I'm talking about UNDERSTANDING (remember this, right?) between Naturals and Coordinators, which is one of the core "ideals" of Orb that Uzumi was constantly blabbering about.

That's not what Uzumi was constantly blabbering about. He was constantly talking about Orb's ideal, which does not include understanding between Natural and Coordinator. That's simply a byproduct of Orb accepting both types of people.

[Erisie]

He was constantly talking about Orb's ideal, which does not include understanding between Natural and Coordinator. That's simply a byproduct of Orb accepting both types of people.

I won't yell that what you're saying is false, but it sure is incorrect. Orb's ideals are related to both its neutrality and acceptance of Naturals and Coordinators. Key term here is "ideals" (principles, guidelines), not "ideal" (utopia).

[monster]

I won't yell that what you're saying is false, but it sure is incorrect. Orb's ideals are related to both its neutrality and acceptance of Naturals and Coordinators. Key term here is "ideals" (principles, guidelines), not "ideal" (utopia).

Acceptance of both Naturals and Coordinators is an ideal in Orb, but it is not part of the main ideals that concerned Orb the most as far as its involvement in the war. The main problem Orb faces in SEED and SEED Destiny is its stance on neutrality. This is tangential to its acceptance of both Naturals and Coordinators. Other nations were also neutral or tried to be neutral, and not all of them were said to openly accept both Naturals and Coordinators.

At the same time, acceptance of both Naturals and Coordinators has nothing to do with mutual understanding in the context of enemies coming to terms with each other and making peace. For example, Kira, a Coordinator living in Orb, did not identify himself with ZAFT and the rest of the PLANTs. So the war between EA and the PLANTs had nothing to do with him.

So no, we were not constantly hammered about mutual understanding, and it shows nothing of the accidental nature of the cynicism in both shows, especially in Destiny.

[Zeonista]

The most optimistic UC series is 08th Platoon, hands down. Love and understanding do cross boundaries, revenge and megadeath schemes come to nothing, characters do selfless actions they know will not benefit them personally, and the hero and heroine limp off together at the end of the big battle, to live happily ever after... Even the cute little Newtype kids are shown to be doing OK. Gundam Unicorn is the UC runner-up for positing that the great cycle of conflict could end without mutual assured destruction...and then actually doing it!

The most cynical UC series is Victory Gundam, in overall tone and result. Especially in light of Reconguista in G, Victory Gundam comes across as a rather hollow victory for the Federation, with all the signs of collapse in place, and the hero's sacrifices don't seem to have been worth the price. Man, I am so glad Tomino-sama started taking the happy drugs.... The runner-up most cynical UC is 0083: Stardust Memory, dedicated to everyone who dutifully cheered for Kou Uraki all the way through to the bitter end. It's Kou who gets the biggest "thanks for nothing", not Amuro Ray.

The most optimistic AU is Gundam Wing, especially the movie. Actually being able to halt war and usher in an era of pacifism? That is pretty much rainbows and lollypops all around for a Gundam series. The most cynical AU is Gundam 00, where Earth has to be saved by a multi-generation conspiracy aimed at uniting Earth at the point of a Gundam sword, even to the extent of being universally denounced as traitors and terrorists. The runners up for AU in both categories are Gundam SEED and Gundam AGE respectively. Gundam SEED dares to have the heroes on both sides join together in the middle to fight against both ends, and actually get away with it! AGE becomes more cynical with each generation, and rather nastily undercuts the third generation's hero in the final ten episodes, which is probably why the series left such a sour taste in so many fans' mouths.

[Kei Katsuragi]

and rather nastily undercuts the third generation's hero in the final ten episodes, which is probably why the series left such a sour taste in so many fans' mouths.

I do believe that is one of the few things people enjoyed about the last couple of episodes of AGE. Less Kio was a well received change.

But that's just me being cynical, I guess.