Is ZZ really retconned by the Zeta Movie Trilogy?

[lt_amuroray_5114]

Now perhaps this has been discussed in the past, to what extent I have no idea, but from my long ventures around the net I've found that there's quite a consensus that the trilogy movies for Zeta Gundam effectively kills the chance for ZZ to happen in it's version of the timeline... barring word of god Tomino himself saying to the contrary... I wish I had a better source then TV Tropes, can someone confirm or deny this?. For the sake of discussion and pondering, I want to see if this is indeed true or not.

Before I get into my opinion on whether or not ZZ can happen anyway, let's list the reasons that are usually cited as the reasons why ZZ can't happen in the movie's timeline.

1) Kamille, who is meant to be brain fried and bed ridden by Paptimus Scirocco's brainhax.... doesn't get brain hacked and is just fine.

2) The Axis Fleet retreats from the battlefield and leaves the Earth Sphere.

Now like I said earlier, barring Tomino's word of god statement it isn't retconned unless it gets sourced, lets analyze these two statements and see if ZZ can't happen just because of these two things.

So right off the bat we have a conscience Kamille, which makes it hard to give a reason why Judau should be let ANYWHERE near the Zeta Gundam, let alone the Argama without receiving some consequence for it. The whole reason why Judau was allowed in the first place to be it's pilot was because he stole the damned thing and Bright, on whim and needing a replacement for the vegetable Kamille... along with seeing Judau persistently trying to steal it three times, gave in and made him pilot... if I remember my facts right. However, theoretically, with Kamille awake as ever and still fit for being a pilot... having Judau around would be useless, right?

Well... this brings us to reason number 2, which incredibly affects reason number 1... Axis leaving Earth Sphere. Now, senior veterans of Zeta Gundam.... what exactly does the Axis Fleet do when the battle for Gryps at the end of Zeta Gundam wipes out the Titans Fleet and leaves the AEUG in a bad position with very few ships? Do they pounce on the opportunity and strike the AEUG at their weakest? No.... No they don't.

The movies pretty much follow beat to beat and even FORESHADOW Gundam Unicorn and ZZ by revealing Haman plans to send Mineva Zabi to Earth to be educated there. Where was Mineva according to Gundam UC this whole time? On Earth... in a private school. So far, no disharmony from the movies on this account. As for the Fleet Leaving, there is a very reasonable explanation for why the retreat rather than advancing their goals so quickly for taking the Earth Sphere. As we see during said battle, not all of the Axis Fleet is at Earth's Sphere yet, Haman's little group was primarily a scouting/ emissary group... not the tour de force. Haman is most likely retreating to gather the remaining Axis Forces to return to Earth Sphere to cause trouble.

Which brings us back to reason 1. Although Kamille is fine for the most part, the Argama is still battle damaged, most of their suits are trashed, and they lost Char. Although Kamille is fine physically... does anyone think he's alright mentally... and no I don't mean brainhax. I severely doubt Kamille is fine after witnessing the deaths of so many of his companions and after this pause in the fighting... the effects of PTSD that afflicted the likes of Amuro and many OYW aces probably are settling into Kamille now. After the end of Zeta Gundam.... Kamille is probably sick and tired of fighting... and probably isn't in his best condition for Axis Zeon when they decide to rear their head as Neo Zeon.

Why would Axis Zeon decide to return if Mineva is on Earth? Well, according to Gundam UC, since Mineva was on Earth the whole time in the primary timeline it must've not stopped Haman back then. We can reason that most likely Haman would prefer to keep the fighting in certain places on Earth, not put Mineva in the direct line of fire since Haman probably knows where the real Mineva is at.

Anyway, with Axis Zeon bound to return, this once again brings up the question of Kamille. Is he mentally fit to continue fighting after the events of Zeta Gundam? Probably not.... not at first anyway. Which brings us back to Judau at last. With Kamille probably stewing in survivor's guilt and Fa helping him move past it, this leaves the need to have someone fill in as the Zeta's pilot till Kamille can recover. Enter Judau and his gang who can help pick up the slack.

As one can guess from my prior analysis on the movie and how badly it disrupt's the timeline, I am of the opinion that ZZ can indeed happen in the movie's timeline... it just needs some changes in order to accommodate Kamille. In a way, the ending of the trilogy leaves open an interesting avenue for ZZ that the original series couldn't have... Kamille being able to actually interact with Judau. The two would be perfect foils for each other: The experienced numbers guy who at heart is a good guy but can be an insufferable genius, and the wiseass rookie who while is relaxed and a slacker at times is responsible and true to his word. Second: Kamille would pretty much be Quattro Bajeena to Judau, a mentor who helps Judau become worthy of being pilot of the Gundam.

As for the other's in Judau's entourage... I honestly have no clue, so I'm more than excited to hear your opinions on how they'd fit into the movie's timeline. Likewise, I'm more than open to critique and counter arguments to the contrary, this is a brain exercise... not a political debate. Finally...... if this topic has been indeed thoroughly analyzed to death and I missed out on all the discussions about it and might as well be beating a dead horse.... I apologize for wasting time.

[ShadowCell]

Is ZZ really retconned by the Zeta Movie Trilogy?

no.

if it was, nobody told Unicorn.

[Destiny_Gundam]

ZZ is still pretty hated by a lot of people, so they'll cling to any excuse to pretend it doesn't exist.

But yeah, in the Zeta movie timeline, ZZ probably didn't happen. However the Zeta movies are not replacements for the TV series and were never intended to be such. It's simply a branch in the timeline.

[Xenosynth]

Well, in terms of it 'invalidating' it, no. Zeta Trilogy does not, was not meant to, and never will displace ZZ, no matter how much haters from other parts of the fandom try to say it does. They also seem to forget that 1. We have modern works that reference ZZ, not the least of which is Unicorn. 2. If ZZ didn't happen, then the events of CCA onwards also would occur quite differently, especially if the machines from ZZ weren't made. But yeah, this definitely seems to be something everyone sees offsite a lot.

As for the points you presented, it's interesting to look at how you feel ZZ fits in the movie's timeline, but yeah, it definitely would need to change quite a few things.

One of the main threads that it was brought up in (Which is a very interesting look at canon/non-canon/officiality in Gundam):
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7298&p=347115&hilit ... ZZ#p347115

I'm sure there are others as well, but at the moment, it's quite late and I am sleepy, so yeah. If you look around here though, there are definitely other discussions, I just can't seem to find them atm @_@

[DoubleZero]

Googling "Zeta Gundam Trilogy canon mecha talk", I've found this:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 14&start=0

This has been tackled before Unicorn was even made, it seems...

[Zeonista]

Now perhaps this has been discussed in the past, to what extent I have no idea, but from my long ventures around the net I've found that there's quite a consensus that the trilogy movies for Zeta Gundam effectively kills the chance for ZZ to happen in it's version of the timeline... barring word of god Tomino himself saying to the contrary... I

Word of God, to use the trope, states that the Zeta movies are an alternate version of the TV story, with an alternate result. Tomino does like to give us alternate versions of existing works, see the MS Gundam movies and Beltorchika's Children for further details. The finale of the movies do suggest though that Gundam Double Zeta will not take place, and that the Neo Zeon wars may be delayed or even put off altogether.

1) Kamille, who is meant to be brain fried and bed ridden by Paptimus Scirocco's brainhax.... doesn't get brain hacked and is just fine.

This does not necessarily mean Judau will never awaken as a Newtype (in the esper sense; he is already a "new type" of space dweller) but unless there is an actual reason for him to grasp Camille's hand for the trigger, there will be no third Gundam pilot. Camille Vidan will continue as the Zeta Gundam pilot, and will probably supervise the testing of the Double Zeta Gundam with Roux Ruka as chief test pilot & Fa Yuri as copilot. he might even rebuild the Mark II to Mark III specs with Astonage in his free time not spent in "recreation"!

Indeed, in a post-movies ZZ timeline Judau may get into trouble for providing a plot complication by rescuing Yazan Gable! Not too much trouble though, it wasn't his fault the cockpit capsule contained the Titans' killer ace instead of a Pokemon. Camille would get some closure for Emma by stomping Yazan like the cockroach he is in the crane-MS fight. Then Judau & friends would get a lecture & possibly a Brightslap for being stupid kids & be sent back to school.

Now as for Camille as an anti-Axis/Neo Zeon force, like the other AEUG veterans he is not really interested in further fighting following the end of the Gryps War. If Haman wants to back down from further conflict, it's fine by him! He would be suspicious of the Neo-Zeon movement, if only because of events in the previous story. However, Camille would give peace a chance, so if Endora never comes to Sweetwater, there will be no battle.

2) The Axis Fleet retreats from the battlefield and leaves the Earth Sphere.

This is the BIG change that pretty much excludes Gundam Double Zeta as a sequel, at least as we know it from the main timeline. The anime is straightforward in the scene setting. It is Haman Karn's decision to aggressively expand into the power vacuum at the end of Zeta Gundam that brings on renewed fighting between Axis Zeon & AEUG, and leads to the First Neo Zeon War. She doesn't back down either, continuously escalating events throughout the anime story.

Now in the wake of the Zeta movies, Haman decides to de-escalate and pull back from her belligerent stance circa episodes 46-48, and her opportunistic advance in episodes 49-50. The retreat from the Earth Sphere would not be all the way to the Belt again, it would probably be close to Side 3, where she could track events along with the main Axis Fleet. Since Axis would not engage in belligerent policy, that would lead to a period of time where AEUG's leaders and their Federation allies could negotiate a truce with Axis resulting in some stability, and consideration of future diplomatic gains. ( No promises, but the shooting has stopped as a mutual agreement for the first time since A Baoa Qu.) There would be a watchful peace, with the prospect of a negotiated settlement of some kind to inspire both sides to come down heavy on violators of said peace. Also, if Haman-sama decides that "Neo Zeon" will indeed live up to its billing, then she will take a Char-like stance and begin working on wooing Zeon Republic support, and working towards general Spacenoid cooperation instead. After all, Minerva-sama is attending a suitable school on Earth as a conspicuous public gesture of detente.

So the Argama at Shangri-La would have little excitement following the stomping of Yazan the cockroach. They would replenish stores, take on replacement crew & the ZZ Gundam, and then leave for Von Braun at their own pace. If Endora did show up, it might only be to convey a personal message to Argama for future developments, and politely enquire as to the whereabouts of one Char Aznable....

Postulating a return to war from the Neo Zeon side of things means giving Haman Karn or one of her subordinates a reason to start fighting again. However, a delay in fighting caused by her "wait and see" policy at the end of the movies would allow both sides time to catch their breath, mend their losses some, and consider what to do. And Haman would have an in-story reward for playing the detente game, since it would encourage Char Aznable to come out of hiding & recognize her as a valid Zeon entity. So it's also in her own interest not to start again, after stopping.

AEUG of course has no motive for continuing hostilities, since as a pro-status quo force they & their political allies on Earth would be busy sweeping up the last of the Titans' mess. Anything that caused de-escalation of hostilities would be readily acceptable. The New Decides would be a brief squib without Axis support, and the Remnants would still be out in the bush waiting for the "go" signal. A new person with a causus belli would be needed to make the conflict occur, and then it would have to be asked if the new antagonist could really succeed without a lot of eye-rolling event manipulation.

EDIT: I talk too much, but you all know that.
EDIT 2: I can't spell 'Beltorchika' either.

[Deacon Blues]

The entire point of "a new translation is just that: a different take on the story. When derived from Latin, it means "to carry across" or "to bring across". The Zeta movies are bringing across an alternative angle on the story.

Plus, Mark put it perfectly that we've yet to have a single unified continuity for Gundam since its inception. So, don't sweat it.

Zeonista: it's Beltorchika btw

[Heaven Piercing Man]

Zeonista: You mean Shangri-La, not Sweetwater

[Dark Duel]

I personally consider the ANT movies to be something more akin to D.C.'s "Elseworlds" publications or the "Star Wars: Infinities" comics.
Kind of a "What if we change this?" sort of take on the same story that's NOT meant to retcon the previous versions, but just to be a possible alternate version of how events played out.

[Zeonista]

Zeonista: You mean Shangri-La, not Sweetwater

Of course I meant Shangri-La! Dammit, this name confusion thing is starting 15 years early.... Aside from that, did it sound good as a refutation?

[YokozunaBulldozer]

If you want to watch Yazan Gable become Federal Wildlife Marshal Willenholly from Jay and Silent Bob Strikes back ZZ is the thing for you. Or if you are the curious type that wants to know what voice actor Yao Kazuki sounded like pre-One Piece.

[Zeonista]

I personally consider the ANT movies to be something more akin to D.C.'s "Elseworlds" publications or the "Star Wars: Infinities" comics.
Kind of a "What if we change this?" sort of take on the same story that's NOT meant to retcon the previous versions, but just to be a possible alternate version of how events played out.

That's pretty much it as a concise summary.

[gunform1010]

Take Unicorn into account? Yes? Then ZZ is canon for you.

[zerogradius]

Well... this brings us to reason number 2, which incredibly affects reason number 1... Axis leaving Earth Sphere. Now, senior veterans of Zeta Gundam.... what exactly does the Axis Fleet do when the battle for Gryps at the end of Zeta Gundam wipes out the Titans Fleet and leaves the AEUG in a bad position with very few ships? Do they pounce on the opportunity and strike the AEUG at their weakest? No.... No they don't.

The AEUG at the end of the Gryps War was in far better shape at the end of the third movie than it was at the end of the TV series. At the end of the movies Bright was organizing his forces, at the end of the TV series the only pilot he had left was Fa. So that's a major difference.

And the Neo Zeon did have Mashymyre and Gottn pursue the AEUG in the TV series so it's not like they left them alone.

[Chris]

Guys, how much more discussion does this need? We've already established that the whole "Zeta movies retcon out ZZ" is just a bunch of fanboy nonsense. There's nothing more to say, so I'm not sure why this thread needs to continue.

[Amion]

Guys, how much more discussion does this need? We've already established that the whole "Zeta movies retcon out ZZ" is just a bunch of fanboy nonsense. There's nothing more to say, so I'm not sure why this thread needs to continue.

It doesn't.

I'd almost like to see it locked down and buried beneath the thread corpses just so it isn't an eyesore anymore, honestly and no offense.