EFSF Fleet Numbers (Not Amount of Ships- Numbered Fleets)

[lt_amuroray_5114]

Now I know topics similar to this have been brought up in the past and I've been digging around Mecha Talk to find if the answer I was looking for was already given or not. Since I wasn't able too, I'll go ahead and fire away and if perchance I was wrong and the question I asked WAS answered, I apologize beforehand.

Alright, lately I've been curious about how the EFSF Fleets are structured and organized, along with how many Fleets it has maintained throughout the Early Universal Century. This means by extension how were the fleets distributed (From what I gather, the largest of the Fleets were stationed at Luna II and later Solomon, and A Boa Qu when they became part of the EF). I Also remember once reading about how the EFSF originally had 12 Fleets, one of which being a Transport Fleet while the others are Combat Units, but other times I hear about a 13th Fleet or more, so I want to know where this info came from and if it holds weight. I was also curious as to how this factored in with the Titans since originally they were a small unit and wondered if they were considered the size of a fleet in their own right or were smaller.

[Deathzealot]

The 13th Fleet isn't really a fleet but the Thirteenth Autonomous Corps which is only the White Base if I remember my Early UC Lore correctly. As for numbered fleets I don't think we get that around the show's ending. Instead the fleets are named after their commander, Tianem (sp?) Fleet, Revil Fleet and then the Luna II Fleet. During the early battles of the war we do have a few times that numbered fleets are mentioned. Also if you really want some hard core bit about the Federation Fleets you should pick up the English Translation of the original Gundam Novels for there are plenty of info in there that never was put into the show.

[lt_amuroray_5114]

Alright, I'll go read through my copy of The Original Novel much more carefully to see what I can pull out and discover about the EFSF during the One Year War.

However, this doesn't help me understand how the EFSF changed after the One Year War and what changes to how it's fleets are arranged, because from what I understand through watching all of UC and from I did glean on Mechatalk (Albiet rather vaguely since most topics talk about the size of the fleets, not how the fleets and task forces are organized) the EFSF changed how their fleets operate as a result of what they learned from the OYW.

In fact, the only time I saw anything which described how the EFSF arranged itself was in Gundam Sentinel and how the Home Fleet was broken up into three smaller Detachment Fleets, followed by Task Forces. Is this the only story that describes how Post-OYW EFSF operates or is there other material that I could look at?

[toysdream]

Most of the specific info about numbered Federation fleets during the One Year War comes from Entertainment Bible 39 and Hobby Japan's "Mobile Suit Gundam the RPG" books, which draw directly on EB 39. In particular, I think that bit about the 13th Fleet being a transport fleet comes from the RPG books.

I don't feel like these sources are all that reliable, but I'll give you a quick summary in a minute. First, though, what do we know from the anime and other sources?


Like Deathzealot says, they tend to refer to the fleets with nicknames in the anime (and the novels). There are really just a few exceptions.

The Tianem Fleet is part of the Earth Federation Second Combined Fleet (地球連邦第二連合艦隊). As I noted in this thread, although later writers tend to treat this term as synonymous with "Tianem Fleet," in historical terms you're only supposed to have one Combined Fleet at a time. I suspect the writers called it the "Second Combined Fleet" because the first one was destroyed at Loum.

During the attack on Solomon, Wakkein's fleet is described as the Third Fleet (第三艦隊).

In the TV series, the White Base is initially assigned to the Tianem Fleet as the 13th Autonomous Corps (第13独立部隊), or "13th Independent Unit" or whatever combination of terms you prefer. In the Gundam II movie, we're told that the White Base was originally meant to be part of the 13th Autonomous Squadron (第13独立戦隊), but after the Jaburo attack "the Earth Federation Forces general staff decided that the Zeon forces had a high regard for the White Base's strength. Thus, it would be best to entrust the mission of the 13th Autonomous Squadron to their single ship." Presumably, the original squadron formation would have included a couple of escort ships, as with the 16th Autonomous Squadron (第16独立戦隊) the Thoroughbred is assigned to.

In any case, after the capture of Solomon, the White Base is rolled into a renamed 13th Autonomous Fleet (第13独立艦隊). This fleet is pretty much wiped out in episode 41 of the TV series, but it appears to include at least two Magellans, six Salamis cruisers, and one Columbus - basically two standard squadrons, plus support craft.

After the One Year War, the Federation Forces seem to get reorganized a few times. There are fleets devoted to defending Earth - the Earth Orbital Fleets featured in Gundam 0083, which are referred to as the Home Fleet in Gundam Sentinel - as well as garrison fleets (the Birmingham is the flagship of Luna II's Second Garrison Fleet) and periphery fleets (the Toulon is the flagship of Konpeitoh's Sixth Periphery Fleet). Based on standard Federation procedure, I assume the garrison fleets just sit around at Luna II, and the periphery fleets are responsible for patrolling the colonies.


Okay, now back to those dubious claims from EB 39 and the RPG books. EB 39 indicates that, at the start of the war, the Federation has at least six main fleets. During the space offensive at the end of the war, it appears to have more and smaller fleets. In addition to the Third Fleet, which spearheads the attack on Solomon, EB 39 says that the Solomon attack also involves the Fifth and Ninth Fleets, and the Second Combined Fleet (the main force) which is escorted by the Second, Eleventh, and Thirteenth Fleets.

During the Battle of A Baoa Qu, EB 39 says that the Federation Forces use the Second, Third, Fifth, and Sixth Mobile Fleets. This doesn't really match the terms used for Solomon, or the numbered "battalions" mentioned in the anime.

Recently, there was a two-part "Another Century Chronicle" book series which provided detailed breakdowns of fleet formations, also based on EB 39. According to this book, the Second Combined Fleet consists of the Second, Eleventh, and Thirteenth Fleets, plus the 11th through 14th Autonomous Corps. Wakkein's group is promoted to the Third Combined Fleet, consisting of the Third, Fifth, and Ninth Fleets (but not the White Base, which seems weird). During the Battle of A Baoa Qu, the surviving fleets are reorganized into three "battalions" as per the animation.

-- Mark

[lt_amuroray_5114]

So, for the sake of summary, would it then be accurate to say that the Federation Space Forces were organized like this?

OYW:
Three Combined Fleets (Yeah, makes no sense to me either)
Each Consisting of 3 to 5 Fleets
Each Fleet is then made up by 4 or more Squadrons
And a Squadron is made up of a grand total of 4 or more ships

Post OYW (For the sake of simplicity, we'll say 0087 onward since 0083 makes a lot of weird claims)
The Home Fleet, The Garrison Fleets (Luna II, with most Likely Zedan as well unless you think otherwise), and the Periphery Fleets (Which we can guess there are four of to cover the four EF Alligned Colonies; Side 1,2,6,7 since 4 and 5 are gone and 3 is still Zeon at this point... which makes me wonder if they could be the 4th Fleet since I remember you once mentioning the 4th Fleet is several fleets put together; and Konpei Island's Fleet's)

Each Fleet is made up of three Battle Fleets (or Detached Fleets to use your words from your Topic about Fleets) or more (Much like a Air Group is made up of several Air Wings), and each Battle Fleet is made up of 1 to 4 Task Forces made up of a Capital Ship (A Sallie or Alexandria during 0087) and 3 or more escorts.

Slightly related, how big were the Titans prior to Jamitov successfully convincing the E.F.F to unite the Military with the Titans? Would they be as big as their own Fleet or were they smaller than a Fleet? I'm under the impression that they maintained three garrisons (Gryps, Zedan, and Konpei Island) and had at each Garrison 4 Alexandria's and a couple of Salamis's, dragooning extra Sallie's from the EFSF if they need a larger force.

[toysdream]

I'm still unwilling to accept the notion of multiple "combined fleets." As far as I can tell, this was invented out of whole cloth by the generally lousy and error-riddled EB 39. The division into the Revil, Tianem, and Luna II Fleets is much better supported by the anime and other more credible sources.

As for the basic units - I guess we're back to ship-counting after all! - it goes like this.


Squadrons: In the One Year War era, as well as Gundam 0083 and Gundam Sentinel, a standard Federation squadron consists of four warships. Typically these are one Magellan and three Salamis, when available, but you also see squadrons of four Salamis (especially in the Gryps Conflict era, when the Magellan's largely been phased out). The smallest squadron we've seen has three ships - as with the Thoroughbred's 16th Autonomous Squadron - and the largest has five - as with the Pegasus III's Taskforce Alpha. So let's say we have 3-5 ships per squadron, with four being the overwhelming standard.


Fleets: As per the 13th Autonomous Fleet in First Gundam, it seems a Federation fleet can have as few as two squadrons. Technically, the 13th Autonomous Fleet would have nine ships - two regular squadrons, plus the White Base - but it loses three cruisers before the White Base joins it, so it's never actually at full strength. In any case, fleets simply appear to be the next organizational level above squadrons, so any formation with two or more squadrons would be a fleet of some kind or another. Wakkein's Third Fleet, likewise, is usually depicted as having only ten ships or so.

Of course, some fleets are bigger than others. Wakkein's Third Fleet is presumably detached from the larger Luna II Fleet, and the Revil and Tianem Fleets are also pretty big. During the Battle of A Baoa Qu, the White Base is lumped in with the makeshift Luzal Fleet - also identified as the First Battalion - which consists of about 25 ships.

Likewise, in Gundam Sentinel, the overall Home Fleet has about 40 ships which are subdivided into three "detached fleets" of 13 ships apiece. So in general, the Federation Space Force seems to be organized into "little fleets" of about 10 ships (2-3 squadrons) and "big fleets" equivalent to 2-3 of these little ones. Aside from EB 39 and its imitators, these big fleets are never referred to as "combined fleets" - they just use the term "fleet" (艦隊) for all of them.


Postwar Fleets: There's no point in disregarding Gundam 0083 as a source of info on the periphery fleets, since this is the only place they're even mentioned. Based on the 0083 novels, there are at least six, and they seem to be based at Solomon. (Just like the Zeons, the Federation evidently prefers to base its patrol fleets at Solomon rather than garrisoning them in the colonies.)

Otherwise, the postwar Federation Forces still seem to use the same organization as before. Aside from the dedicated "taskforces" of Gundam Sentinel and Gundam Unicorn, the basic units are still squadrons of 3-5 ships, which are then lumped into fleets of various sizes.

In the third Zeta movie, we see a tactical display during Operation Maelstrom in which the AEUG fleet is divided into squadrons of three ships apiece. In addition to the Argama, Radish, and Irish squadrons - presumably consisting of these respective ships and two Salamis escorts apiece - we also see labels for the 01st and 02nd squadrons of the Thirteenth Fleet, and what looks like the Eighth Fleet. So there's another data point.

There are a few other obscure sources we can dredge up - a recent issue of Model Graphix had an interesting U.C. 0084-era org chart, for example - but that's probably enough for now.

-- Mark

[lt_amuroray_5114]

It seems I might have been hasty to say that amount of ships wouldn't be needed to discuss the way these fleets are organized after all. The reason I worded my topic this way was to make it a bit easier on everybody and not have to repeat everything that was said in previous topics about Fleet Size (Of which I particularly enjoyed your Thread, "Untitled Fleet Thread" and found it to be immensely helpful in many ways). Also... quite frankly I wasn't aware there's no other source that talks about the EFSF's Periphery Fleet's other than 0083 and I remembered how previous discussions mentioned the rather large size of said fleets which was why I said no need at the time. However, as you pointed out, it's a worthwhile source of information and I apologize for my lack of foresight in that regard.

Hearing how the Federation seems to just lump Squadrons into Fleets with varying sizes, it makes me wonder what their logic behind how they arranged their fleets was? You'd think they'd keep their largest fleets at Luna II and the Moon due to being respectively the HQ of the EFSF and the doorstep to Earth with the Periphery Fleets being smaller in size due to their primary duty of patrolling the space around the Colonies and the Home Fleet being kept mid to small size as a reserve force. However, now I'm getting the feeling that might not be so and the Federation simply has no clue where to best devote their space assets, thus the strange fleet sizes.

[toysdream]

"The Federation simply has no clue" is often a good explanation.

It does seem like the Federation doesn't have much of a presence in the colonies. I think the only time we even see docked ships in port is in Gundam F91, where the Frontier Side is still under construction. That makes a fair amount of sense when you think about it - aside from the issues of logistics, security, redundancy, etc, which make it more efficient to centralize your military facilities in just a few a few places, we should also remember that it simply doesn't take very long to get around the Earth Sphere. Luna II, the most remote base, is less than a week from the moon; you can get from one Side to another in a day or two, and travel within a Side is a matter of hours.

According to Gundam Sentinel, the Federation does maintain garrison fleets in the Sides. The New Desides and Aeno Fleet have minor skirmishes with the Side 2 and Side 4 garrisons, and Taskforce Alpha borrows ships from the Side 5 garrison to replace the ones it loses at Pezun. There's also a Lunar Orbital Fleet, headquartered at Von Braun, which joins in the final attack on Pezun but isn't involved in the fighting over Ayers City. It's possible that these local fleets are all based at a single city or colony in their assigned area.


On that note, here's the Federation Forces org chart from issue 213 of Model Graphix magazine. Totally unofficial, of course, but it seems roughly consistent with what we're told in Gundam 0083 and Gundam Sentinel.

Code: Select all

EARTH FEDERATION FORCES CHAIN OF COMMAND (U.C.0084)

Federation Security Council
--  Supreme Staff Council
    --  General Staff Headquarters

        --  Titans

        --  Space Forces Ministry
            --  Space Force Operations Headquarters
                --  Military Police
                --  Minovsky Tactics Corps
                --  Schools
                    --  Training Battalion
                --  Supply Corps
                --  Minesweeper Corps
                --  Maintenance Corps
                --  Earth Orbital Fleets
                --  Periphery Patrol Fleets
                --  Independent Mobile Fleets
                --  Lunar Defense Force
                --  Area Forces
                    --  L1 Division (Side 4)
                        --  MS Regiment
                            --  MS Battalions
                        --  Fleet
                            --  Taskforces
                        --  Land Warfare Units
                        --  Rear Support Corps
                        --  Training Corps
                        --  Minesweeper Regiment
                        --  Minovsky Tactics Regiment
                    --  L2 Division (Side 3, Gate of Zedan)
                    --  L4 Division (Side 2, Side 5)
                    --  L5 Division (Side 1, Side 6, Konpeitoh)
                    --  Luna II Division (Luna II, Side 7)

        --  Earth Forces Ministry
            --  Joint Forces Command
                --  Naval Operations Headquarters
                --  Army Operations Headquarters
                --  Air Force Operations Headquarters

        --  Colony Reclamation Plan Headquarters
            --  Colony Reclamation Plan Enterprise Group
            --  Operations Command
                --  Minesweeper Battalions
                --  Defense Fleets
                    --  MS Battalions

        --  Jupiter Resource Development Enterprises

--  Military Council
--  Central Intelligence Bureau

Of these, the main fleet-type elements would seem to be the Earth Orbital Fleets, the Periphery Patrol Fleets, the Independent Mobile Fleets, the Lunar Defense Force, and the Area Forces (essentially one for each Lagrange point). The chart provides a breakdown of the L1 Division, which indicates that it has one MS regiment consisting of three battalions, and one fleet consisting of three taskforces. If we were using Gundam Sentinel as a reference point, you'd expect four ships per taskforce, and thus 12 per area fleet (plus flagships), so each area fleet would be equivalent to one of the Home Fleet's detached fleets.

In Gundam Sentinel, a company of 9 mobile suits is assigned to each Salamis cruiser, so each taskforce has a battalion of 36 mobile suits and each detached fleet has about 120 (including flagship units). That doesn't seem unreasonable for these area fleets, either.

It's not clear whether each of the other areas would have a single fleet and a single MS regiment. Side 4, at this point, is basically just rubble, so you wouldn't think it would require as big a garrison as Luna II or the L4 and L5 areas. But hey, see what you think.


Incidentally, the chain of command here is pretty similar to the One Year War-era one. The current consensus is that the wartime EFSF was divided into Colony Garrison Forces (stationed in the Sides and Luna II), Lunar Surface Garrison Forces, and Independent Mobile Forces (subdivided into Area Forces and Periphery Patrol Fleets).

-- Mark

[lt_amuroray_5114]

I think the only time we even see docked ships in port is in Gundam F91, where the Frontier Side is still under construction.

Not so, we do see The Alexandria docked at Gryps in Episode 3 and in the 1st Zeta Gundam Movie version of the same scene we see 2 Salamis Kai Class ships leaving Gryps with the Alexandria and we know that Londenion can hold a number of ships being that Adenaur Paraya leaves on that unknown Londo Bell ship that wasn't part of the Ra Cailum's Squadron (Although I'm not sure if there were other ships that left with Adenaur's ship).

However, I have to wonder what the difference is between the Peripheral Fleets and the Area Forces, unless The Peripheral Fleets are stationed at the Area Forces.

Also, seeing General Staff Headquarters is making me think of the General Staff Office that's mentioned in Gundam Unicorn, could they be one in the same?

Finally, hearing you mention how a detached fleet alone has 120 ships makes me think the EFSF overall must've expanded greatly in size after the OYW beyond the original 320 Tomino said in the Novels and setting notes.

[toysdream]

Gryps and Londenion: Ah, good examples! Gryps is (at that point) the Titans' headquarters, and Londenion is the Londo Bell's base of operations, so this actually supports the idea that the Federation only maintains military ports in selected colonies. (Just as the US military doesn't have a base in every town.)


Periphery Fleets versus Area Forces: These consistently seem to be different things on all the org charts, so there must be some difference. In the One Year War-era chart, the key word is probably Periphery Patrol Fleet - in other words, these roam around watching for trouble, so presumably the area forces are different because they stay put.

At the beginning of the One Year War, one of the first targets of the Zeon surprise attack - aside from the colony garrisons - are the patrol fleets in Earth orbit. (This is mentioned in both EB 39 and Gundam The Origin.) Since the wartime org chart doesn't have a heading for a Home Fleet or Earth Orbital Fleet, perhaps the Periphery Patrol Fleets are responsible for patrolling Earth orbit? If so, then their job description must have changed after the war.


120 ships: No, I said 120 mobile suits. Each of the detached fleets in Gundam Sentinel appears to have 13 ships and about 120 mobile suits. The entire Home Fleet has about 40 ships (three detached fleets plus a couple of extra flagships), and a little under 400 mobile suits.

-- Mark

[lt_amuroray_5114]

Whoops, my mistake on the 120 ships figure, I must've glanced at the next line and got MS and Ships mixed up, now I feel like an idiot.

So, with the average Fleet having 40 ships, and perhaps the Luna II along with the Periphery fleets having a bit more ships, would you say it's likely the Federation Space Forces as a whole like to keep their figures around the original 320 mark or after the OYW they downsized their forces significantly? If they wanted to rebuild their forces to the original numbers they had, then 0083 would make sense given the number of ships chasing the Delaz Fleet and your calculations about how many ships were at the review and the number of ships after the attack... which begs the question of how the EFSF respond to the Conflict. Yeah they formed the Titans to mop up the remaining Zeon forces, but did they opt to downsize their fleet to make them harder to target, or bulk up on more Salamis Kai's and Alexandria's and maintain/ increase the size of the Space Forces?

You make a good point about the idea that the Periphery Fleets pull the work of the Home Fleets, but somehow I don't think that's likely. From what the name implies, the Periphery Fleet's job would probably imply patrolling the edges of Earth Sphere... like keeping an eye out for Axis's return (surprise-surprise they failed on that account). Though like you said that it doesn't take too long to travel from one edge of Earth Sphere to the other, I'd think it'd be a logistical nightmare for ships stationed at Konpei Island to pull the work that Ships already stationed at Earth's Orbit could do.

On a side note: Whatever happened to Gryps 1? We know thanks to Unicorn that the EFSF despite the fact that it's a symbol of everything wrong with the Titans that the EFSF decided to keep and even modify Gryps 2, could it be possible then that Gryps 1 is still parked next to Green Oasis and serves some military role?

[toysdream]

There are some caveats around that 320-ships figure. It originally came from Tomino's novels, describing the armada that attacks A Baoa Qu later in the story. We don't get a breakdown of its components, but earlier on, in the attack on Granada at the start of the second novel, Tomino gives us a detailed tally of the two Federation fleets involved...

Revil Fleet: Trafalgar, Magellan x 2, Coral x 17, Salamis x 20, Public x 65, space fighter x 60
Karel Fleet: Garibaldi, Magellan x 1, Coral x 7, Salamis x 8, Public x 30, space fighter x 60

The Trafalgar and Garibaldi are carriers, which presumably house the space fighters. The Coral is a heavy cruiser that doesn't appear in the animation. All told, the Revil Fleet has 39 battleships and cruisers, plus the Trafalgar; the Karel fleet has 16 battleships and cruisers, plus the Garibaldi. So both these fleets are well within the normal range we discussed above.

These two fleets have a total of 152 combat vessels between them, but 95 of these are just Publics. In other words, the full-size warships (battleships, cruisers, and carriers) account for only 3/8 of the total number of combat vessels.

The MSV books, which seem to have borrowed the 320-ship total from the novels, make the same assumption. From Mobile Suit Variation 3:

Between the Revil, Tianem, and Luna II fleets, the Federation Forces' huge fighting strength amounted to 12 regular carriers, 36 auxiliary carriers, 128 battleships and heavy cruisers, 144 space boats, and more than 600 carrier-based craft and RX mobile suits.

That comes to 320 combat vessels, but only 128 of them (40%) are actually warships. The "auxiliary carriers" are most likely unarmed Antietam-class transports; the regular carriers are unknown, but could include some surviving Trafalgars and possibly Pegasus-class ships.


Entertainment Bible 39 and its imitators, of course, claimed far larger numbers of Federation ships. For the Battle of Solomon alone, we're told the Federation deployed 145 battleships and cruisers, plus 280 Publics. But these numbers are far larger than anything we ever see in the animation, so if I have to choose, I'm going with Tomino's novels and the MSV books.


So yeah, the postwar ship totals probably wouldn't be that big either. Gundam 0083 makes it look like the Federation rapidly builds a million billion new ships, and then instantly loses them all in a single nuclear attack, which is physically impossible anyway. So the whole thing pretty much cancels itself out, and we end up with the Federation fleet trimmed back down to the size you'd expect it to be if you weren't totally deranged.

-- Mark

[lt_amuroray_5114]

Okay, so if I understand what you said correctly, it's very likely that the EFSF maintains it's active forces around the same numbers they did during the OYW (barring 0083 and it's insane numbers), which would imply more or less they maintained the same structure in their fleets, just shuffling around how many fleets are stationed where and what their job entails depending on the current situation.

Also... why do I get the feeling the Titans simply just get no love and have very little information about how they operate compared to the Federation and Zeon? We know that after Jamitov secures the Federation's vote to hand over a significant amount of the EFF to the Titans that the Titans boost their total number of ships to somewhere around 100, and loose 40 of those ships at Zedan. However, how many of those ships were a part of the Titans in the first place? I'm gonna bet the answer is: Tomino/ Sunrise didn't care to elaborate on how small/big the Titans were prior to the EFF expanding their forces in Z Gundam.

[toysdream]

I never got the impression that the Titans cared much about having a huge fleet - I mean, what would they use it for? Who would they fight with it?

The basic unit of the Titans is the Alexandria-class cruiser, which can carry a whole company of mobile suits and conduct operations with a single ship. If they need escort ships for whatever reason, they can just borrow them from the local Federation Forces. So the limiting factor on the Titans' operations would be the number of Alexandrias they have at their disposal.

-- Mark

[lt_amuroray_5114]

Ah, thanks, one less mystery about the Titans cleared up... for the most part lol. It makes sense however, being that their job would (ostensibly that is) put them in contact with MS forces often, meaning operating a carrier would service their needs quite nicely over a Salamis which is most likely needed for firepower. I guess my original hypothesis of 12 Alexandria's divided into 4 ships at three different garrisons would cover their needs nicely...

Back to the EFSF, I have to wonder what exactly Gundam Unicorn means when the story states that the EFSF has once again reorganized their forces. Other than the presence of the General Revil (which I might add is unbelievable because the whole point of building the original Dogosse Giar was to spend ludicrous amounts of money to further ruin the economy of the Earth Federation... I have to wonder whose bright idea was it to build a new one.... though that's to say her presence isn't welcomed lol) and the formation of ECOAS, the EFSF as a whole doesn't seem that much different from how it always operated.

[lt_amuroray_5114]

Bumping this Topic of mine because Im currently making a chart based on what I learned so far to create a hypothetical organizational chart of the EFSF Circa 0087 (due to Sentinel and 0083 being prime sources amongst other things)... but I have some holes that are making it tricky to finish. Do we know how many Fleets/ ships are stationed at the Moon and at Luna II around this time... or are there any clues that might help fill this gap of information in?