My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

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Nikkolas
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Compared to a story that spans an entire war, the causes for that war, the numerous battles fought in that war, the complicated motivations of dozens of characters in that war - I can't say 0080 has a deep plot. There's 30 times more things happening in MSG or Zeta or SEED or Wing.

The point is you don't need a "deep plot" to have a good plot.

And the characters are well-written to be sure. But they're normal. I think how simplistic they are is why they are so good. They're just normal people in every sense of the word. Again, you don't need characters with deeply layered backstories or complex motivations to have good characters. Someone like Bernie isn't half as "deep" as Kamille but he doesn't have to be. His purpose as a character is to be very average, very relatable, and he succeeds at that.

It should be remembered that just because your story has greater scope, and your characters have pages of backstory and motivation, it doesn't make your writing better.
Last edited by Nikkolas on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
latenlazy
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Nikkolas wrote:Compared to a story that spans an entire war, the causes for that war, the numerous battles fought in that war, the complicated motivations of dozens of characters in that war - I can't say 0080 has a deep plot. There's 30 times more things happening in MSG or Zeta or SEED or Wing.

The point is you don't need a "deep plot" to have a good plot.

And the characters are well-written to be sure. But they're normal. I think how simplistic they are is why they are so good. They're just normal people in every sense of the word. Again, you don't need characters with deeply layered backstories or complex motivations to have good characters. Someone like Bernie isn't half as "deep" as Kamille but he doesn't have to be. His purpose as a character is to be very average, very relatable, and he succeeds at that.
Different definitions for what qualifies as deep plot, I suppose. And for well explored characters.

The way I always saw it 0080 had the kind of depth that you don't commonly find with every show precisely because it stayed away from contrived characters and situations. It let its own setting and subject matter speak for itself, and I would argue that often creates real dramatic depth in characters and in situations, as opposed to something that simply seems deep on first impression but ends up being rather superficial when looked at closer.
Nikkolas wrote: It should be remembered that just because your story has greater scope, and your characters have pages of backstory and motivation, it doesn't make your writing better.
Greater scope and more backstory and motivation, I would argue, also doesn't mean deep.
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Nikkolas wrote:6. So are we finally seeing some proof of the fact Zeon is only one of the colonies? Because I gotta tell you, MSG always presented it as a war between Earth and the colonies. I had to read stuff online to know the Principality was only one part of the whole because it was always presented as being the leader. So I guess now I'm finally seeing the Spacenoids who didn't side with Zeon, that's cool.
Actually, Zeon is only Side 3 of the colonies. Located in L2 on the far side of the moon. This was established back in MSG itself, so it's nothing really new. Keep in mind though that many of the other colony sides sustained serious damage, or in the case of Side 4 were completely obliterated so there's not much in the way of active resistance left in space until White Base starts running around with the Gundam distracting Zeon so the rest of the EFF can play catch-up in the mobile suit game and crank out as many GMs as they can to counterattack.

Only side 6, which the colony of Libot is a part of, remained neutral through the OYW though it allowed both EFF and Zeon ships to dock within their borders as long as no one started any trouble.
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Nikkolas wrote:Well I'll check the manga and F91 out last after I finish 00.

For now, my thoughts as I watch 0080:

3. The music for the Federation and Zeon battle that breaks out right near the kids is just not appropriate. Maybe for a regular plain old battle in another series but the "light-hearted action" track doesn't fit what should be a horrific event. Those kids could be killed any second now. Then again, I guess the kids aren't worried so why should I fret.
Considering that Al has a childish view of war and the story is mostly about his perspective of war maybe that music track is more appropriate than you think
Nikkolas wrote:5. Ah David Hayter... Everybody knows him because of Solid Snake but he did a few anime roles back in the day.

Yeah my jaw pretty much dropped when I found out the David Hayter voiced Bernie.
Nikkolas wrote:17. Again this goddam awful music. Bernie and Chris fighting for no reason is NOT the right time for this kind of music at all. I'm on the last episode. It's such a tragic and powerful moment and yet the soundtrack is determined to ruin it. I'm biting my nails here wondering if one or both of them will die or fi Al will die and that damned music keeps interfering with the atmosphere.
Actually I really liked the the last segment that plays at the very end when Bernie and Chris are making their final charge at each other. Though i will admit that jazzy part that plays when they falling down the hillside is really off.
Nikkolas wrote:18. That...that ending... I'm...I'm not crying dammit! Just something in my eye...
I know man, hits you right in the feels.
Nikkolas wrote:The reason my constant drivel of thoughts dried up for the last couple episodes is because I was far too engrossed in what was happening. I can certainly see why 0080 is a lot of people's favorites. Maybe it doesn't have the deepest plot, or the most well-explored characters, but it feels real. So real it hits you right where it matters. God bless you Bernard Wiseman.
Years ago before seeing this I never would have thought that one of the most unconventional Gundam series would end up being one of my favorites in the franchise. In fact when I first heard about this i was put off by the fact that it was only six episodes and my thoughts were along the lines of "What only six episodes? Surely that's not enough to tell a well crafted story...right?"

One thing i like about this series is that since its not your typical gundam series its actually quiet accessible to those who aren't familiar with the Gundam franchise and has allowed me to show it to some of my friends without having to give them a giant exposition dump.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed what was a short but memorable entry in the gundam franchise
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HellCat
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Something I appreciate is that 0080 tells its story withba great amount of respect for the original. Sure, the redesigns got retconned into being new designs in story, but this is a short, powerful tale which could easily have happened in the shadows of MSG.

Compare to various other Gundam sidestories that decide to try and show up the framing work.
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Nikkolas
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Thanks for your replies guys. I think I'll be starting 00 S2 later tonight but for the meantime I have a quick question about Wing.

A guy elsewhere said the only problem some people had with Endless Waltz's ending is "the ending narration" and that it was in the dub only? Are they referring to the line about Gundams never being seen again or whatever? Was that really only in the dub? It seemed kinda thematically appropriate enough...
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

That line was present in the original Japanese as well. In my experience, a lot of people back in the day believed that Wing's dub added/removed/changed major plot points, but that simply isn't true.

Part of the reason that line is an issue is because the debate over whether it's unrealistically optimistic or not. And part of it is the Sequel Novel That Shall Not Be Named keeps that line, but uses a loophole in order to allow for more MS action, which annoyed some (like myself).
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HellCat
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

The translation does however fudge a few lines.
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Nikkolas
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Another quick question, inspired by the talk about Char and him being a guy with an agenda in the other thread.

Is there any reason to believe daddy Zabi killed Char's father? In MSG itself all we have to go on is the words of a murderous jerk of the highest order.

If someone actually killed him and he didn't just die of natural causes, maybe it was Gihren who assassinated him. He's kinda evil like that.

I just never once got evil vibes from Sovereign Zabi at all.
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

HellCat wrote:Something I appreciate is that 0080 tells its story withba great amount of respect for the original. Sure, the redesigns got retconned into being new designs in story, but this is a short, powerful tale which could easily have happened in the shadows of MSG.

Compare to various other Gundam sidestories that decide to try and show up the framing work.
That's a lovely short summary of War in the Pocket. I do think a major reason for its success is that the show was made by a "dream team" of anime creators at that time. Six-part side story OAV with no direct connection to main MSG action? No problemo jefe, we will get on that! No goofy manga, no off the wall concept, no need to out-Amuro Amuro or out-Char Char. One colony, two pilots, one Gundam, and one kid to wonder at it all. Oh and one Kampfer so Zeon fans will have a shiny thing too alongside the mighty Alex! :D
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AmuroNT1
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

HellCat: True, but for the most part it's limited to mistranslated but ultimately pointless lines (like Zechs' infamous "No machinegun for him!") or continuity errors (Quatre referring to the buster rifle as a beam Gatling); it's not like the Ocean crew tried to change the actual plot of the show.

Hell, back in the day I remember hearing some Yaoi fangirls insisting that the original show had definitive PROOF that the boys were gay lovers, and it was all edited out by the "prudish" American licensors. When I mentioned this to my sister-in-law (who saw Wing through fansubs long before it was licensed), she died laughing.

Nikkolas: I think the implication is that Gihren goaded or strong-armed Degwin into doing it, then slowly started seizing power for himself. Degwin does confess to the killing in the "Tomino Memo" version of the story (and seems genuinely repentant), but it's unclear if this remains the case in the revised storyline.
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Nikkolas
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

AmuroNT1 wrote: Nikkolas: I think the implication is that Gihren goaded or strong-armed Degwin into doing it, then slowly started seizing power for himself. Degwin does confess to the killing in the "Tomino Memo" version of the story (and seems genuinely repentant), but it's unclear if this remains the case in the revised storyline.
Sweet, thanks for the info.

And since I'm just full of questions lately, I'd like to get your guys opinion on one more thing that I kinda expected to be brought up more. Even I was thinking it during Endless Waltz.

Any hard feelings towards Zechs nearly killing everyone on Earth and then being forgiven for it? At the very least he's not punished for it at all.

Endless Waltz kinda just has this happy, "all's well that ends well" air that makes me overlook it but when you get away from that joyous mindset you get a bit more incredulous. Well I do.

edit:
Ya know I really did enjoy the dub but some of the things it left out are kinda irritating, I asked this question elsewhere and found out about this
http://i.imgur.com/t12rBR9.png

To me, that line by Heero in his and Zechs' final battle is no accident. He could very well be saying that Zechs knew the Earth would be spared. In which case, Zechs' actions take on a whole different meaning. They're certainly less vile.
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Except that Zechs never intended to go through with it; his entire reason for joining White Fang was to STAGE a giant destructive war with Treize in the hopes that it would horrify humanity into moving towards peace. His punishment is that he basically has to spend the rest of his life as Preventer Wind, working to prevent any more wars from starting up.
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latenlazy
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

AmuroNT1 wrote:Except that Zechs never intended to go through with it; his entire reason for joining White Fang was to STAGE a giant destructive war with Treize in the hopes that it would horrify humanity into moving towards peace. His punishment is that he basically has to spend the rest of his life as Preventer Wind, working to prevent any more wars from starting up.
Some punishment :P.
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LightningCount
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

I'll put in a few thoughts:

In Endless Waltz, Zechs worked largely with Noin and Une, and neither of them are going to judge him given their relationships with him and/or Treize. You notice he doesn't choose the name Millardo, and goes with Zechs, the secret defender, who now has become Preventer Wind. Meanwhile, the Barton Foundation and the Marimaia Army have just made themselves public enemy number one by taking over Earth and threatening it with a colony drop. Finally, the Gundam pilots aren't likely to look a gift horse in the mouth, and the fact that Zechs leaves Earth for Mars with Noin in the end says that he's not going to give anyone a chance to cast opinions on him. He's starting over with Noin, and leaving Earth in the hands of Relena and the new generation. (Another something Char never did).

The story isn't about Zechs at this point, really. It's about Relena, Heero, and Wufei, and secondarily, as it concerns his past, Trowa.

All that said, Endless Waltz can come off as sort of trite and truncated, which is why I think of it as a thematic and character-based curtain call and/or coda, which I discussed in a little more detail earlier. It's effective in its hanging threads where it most needs to be, especially in Heero and Wufei finally coming to an understanding in their confrontations. Its animation is really a cut above, though, and it's nice to see Wing get this extra special visual treatment in its "send-off." I don't think it represents Wing's strongest moment, but it doesn't ruin it all, either.

The ending line about Gundams not seen again and such is very idealistic/poetic and really didn't need to be said; but it allows for the stage play's curtains to fall once and for all and let people consider all that has occurred in this stage play reality. That line alone crystallizes the stage play analogy of Wing. I don't think the line was necessary, but I'm not going to let it ruin the whole experience. In the end, I think the reason it had to be there was to close out the AC alternate universe definitively. Sunrise didn't want Gundam to revolve around Wing indefinitely. Ironically, after a string of some quality series with lukewarm receptions following Wing, Sunrise was almost ready to had the UC mantle over to Cosmic Era, which revived Gundam's popularity. (At one point, Cosmic Era was intended to carry on, as I recall, and I don't just mean the scrapped movie). I don't think anything more needed to be milked out of AC, except an Episode Zero OVA, but that ship has apparently sailed, and later developments with the controversial novels have, I've been told and it seems, muddled all things AC.

I read you're going to start 00 Season 2. I'm not sure if I'll have the fortitude to comment on every little thing with that one, but I've been brainstorming on its positives and negatives a bit. We'll see.

I suppose I should offer some thoughts on 0080. I think the music is a mixed bag, but that it largely works, playing off the contrasts of innocent imagination and harsh reality. It has some real standout songs amidst the stranger ones. It does strike me as more in the vein of 08th MS Team than you noted in terms of how it portrays things, but just a more honed, distilled version. In other words, it has more to do with 08th MS Team in tone/approach than mainline UC, in my opinion. I have to say that the "evil" Cyclops Team, in short, is eventually portrayed with a certain amount of sympathy within their camaraderie and concern for Bernie, etc. Anyway, these are my excerpted thoughts from previous conversations I've had in recent years on these boards-->

Gundam 0080 big picture/thoughts:
...You've got the Zeon Cyclops Team basically given an impossible mission that they're doomed, perhaps even setup, to fail in. (Whose leader knows deep down the war is over and lost). You've got Al, who thinks of war as a game and desires its escapism (and even its vindictive/destructive subtexts) to get past his broken family. You've got Chris, who Al trusts as a big sister, but who hides the fact that she is a Gundam test pilot. You've got Bernie, a rookie softy who happens to be a soldier and hides his weakness behind a blowhard attitude. Moreover, Al sees Bernie as the big brother who will allow him to live out his idealized fantasies about war.

The series follows the daily lives of these individuals, and their bonding and growing understanding of one another, as they enter a brewing tragedy. Bernie and Chris have chemistry and are attracted to one another, and both care about Al, and vice-versa. When Bernie's team dies because of his failings, he is stripped of his blowhard mask, and reveals himself as a coward who wants to run away from it all, leaving Al in an impossible position--a kid who guiltily conspired with military enemies, whom nobody will believe, who is having his parents slowly reunite, but who is faced with the reality they will all die shortly from a nuclear attack. As Bernie is about to leave it all, he happens to overhear that phone call of a broken, scared relationship that abstractly mirrors his own situation, and he realizes he has to be brave, because he really has come to care about Al and the colony's fate. Even technologically inferior, he and Al work so hard to get ready to fight the Gundam, not realizing that Chris is the pilot.

When the moment comes, Al learns that Bernie doesn't have to fight--that he could have left--because the nuclear attack has been foiled. He tries with all his might to stop Bernie from his fight--a fight that he doesn't know is between his two best friends. Bernie does a heck of a job in a clever and desperate fight between two main characters, but ultimately loses (the fight isn't the point, but what the fight meant, how it resulted, and how it could have been avoided). Al sees the end of his friend's life before him. Then Al has to play back Bernie's last video--a powerful video that is meant to offer Al hope and understanding. In the end, Al talks with Chris, who doesn't know she has killed Bernie, and whom Al can't bear to share the truth about. (in fact, Al doesn't know that Chris killed Bernie). Instead, he offers Chris what Bernie would have wanted her to know.

Finally, Al sees that his wish to damage the city in his video game has come true, but it's not what he wanted. His friends tell him to get excited about another war, but he knows what war means now, and just has to cry to let it all out. It's beautiful. You combine that kind of emotional writing with well-developed, fun characters and three solid battles, alongside a few nice ambient fights, with unique mecha like the Hygogg, Kampher, GM Sniper II, Riah 35 Draken-E, and Gundam Alex, and this is one for the record books. To quote MAHQ Reviews on the finale: "In some anime, hundreds of people could die in one episode, and it's meaningless. In this series, one person dies, and it means everything. That is the sign of a good series." If you come in expecting a space action-epic, it probably doesn't work. But if you want a tragic human/character story that pulls the heartstrings (and not just for the sake of pulling heartstrings), there's none better that I've run across in anime. (This is the "civilian view" done right, IMO). Rewatching this series, knowing what's going to happen, it's even more heart-wrenching. With all that said, that's why it's usually in my top 2 or 3 Gundam series. Its ending can still get me to this day.

...I often think 0080 has the least flaws of any Gundam series because it knows what it wants to do and does it without wasting time. And the characters, more so than in any other series, just feel so "normal and believable," with their interactions "naturalistic."

...Here's why I like some of the characters so much/find them memorable, despite them being more muted and non-"ace":

Al: A genuine look at a "kid." He thinks he understands things, but he doesn't. He acts out for attention. He's seeking an adventure. And through it all, he learns the truth about war that changes him forevermore.

Bernie: A very human young soldier. He has fears, but he also wants to prove himself, and so he hides those fears behind a facade of confidence and tall-tales. His interactions with Al and the events with the Cyclops Team tear his facade aside, bring forth his compassionate side, and force him to take responsibility headlong.

Christina: The girl-next-door who is grounded and wants to help. She is both strong and compassionate--capable in a fight, but protective and sensitive to Al's situation. Her basic person is so rounded that she's one of my favorite female Gundam characters. (Also, I love the fact in this series that if Chris and Bernie had met under different circumstances, they might have gotten together. In a sub-textual sort of way, it shows you very naturally how two sides in a war are really human underneath it, and ideologies and conflict scenarios warp normal human relationships; but that even then, love could blossom. Both Bernie and Chris had an underlying compassion that was against their duties).

Steiner: The Cyclops Team captain who is war-weary, but takes his work seriously--even in spite of the facts and his underlying personal feelings (as seen with his interesting talk with the Zeon bartender-spy, Charlie).

Mikhail: A lovable, half-drunk blowhard who thinks he's the best pilot out there, but lets himself get caught off-guard when fighting Chris in the Alex.

Garcia: He seems like a total cutthroat, but in the end, you see that he is human by the way he ultimately becomes protective of Bernie.

Plus the English voice actors do one heck of a job delivering the natures of these characters.

And that concludes my thoughts on 0080.

EDIT:

A few last notes:

*The only series that hits as heavy in the gut in singular moments for me as 0080, at least in first watching it, was G-Gundam. I know that sounds ridiculous given how fantastical G is. But the story surrounding Domon's family, master, and would-be girlfriend and how those stories play out, especially in the former two cases, have incredible moments of genuine and powerful emotion.

*RahXephon, a great anime series that's more in the vein of Evangelion than Gundam (and is often unfairly labeled as a straight-up EVA clone), has an episode in its latter half directed (or written?) by the 0080 guy. And let me tell you, he's still got it when it comes to hitting you in the gut with human tragedy.
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Nikkolas wrote:I mentioned way back at the start that Scirocco was one of my favorite things about Zeta but I wasn't too clear about his actual goals. Ya know, what with his whole "I believe a woman will rule everything" or whatever.
From what I gathered, that was "his" belief. The world & space has been not only corrupted and ruined by humans, but war wise specifically by the ideologies of "men". So a woman who "brings" life, not destroys it, would be a better suitor.

Now I thought at one point in time he felt that Haman Kahn was this "ruler" with him being directly by that ruler's side. The most important component was him being present next to the ruler. However, unlike Reccoa and Sarah, Haman wasn't influenced by him or fell under his thrall so to speak so he moved on.

It is/could also be speculated that he was the first attempt by the people from Jupiter of what was to come via the Crossbone era. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jerid or the rest of the Titan team at first thought Scirocco as "odd", but wrote it off as being from Jupiter.
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

While lots of people have touched on all the things that make 0080 my favourite Gundam series, one thing that always stood out was how it gives meaning to life. What's the life of one more low-ranking nobody soldier, defending a strategically unimportant colony by defeating a machine whose existence will (as fans of the franchise know) have no impact one way or the other on a conflict that has already killed billions? The answer that 0080 gives us is "everything", to the right person. Al could have been taught his lesson about war by the wholesale slaughter of his colony, and I suspect a lesser writer might have done that; instead he was taught it in a way that has much more meaning and much more resonance.

I love the heck out of 0080.
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Nikkolas
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

I never realized the Epyon was supposed to only have its giant beam saber and no other weapon.

Apparently it was though and so some people dislike the final fight with Wing Zero where WZ is clearly dodging bullets.
LightningCount wrote: *RahXephon, a great anime series that's more in the vein of Evangelion than Gundam (and is often unfairly labeled as a straight-up EVA clone), has an episode in its latter half directed (or written?) by the 0080 guy. And let me tell you, he's still got it when it comes to hitting you in the gut with human tragedy.

Between this and The Big O, which would you recommend more? I'm in a robots mood and I'm almost done with Gundam.
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Nikkolas wrote:Between this and The Big O, which would you recommend more? I'm in a robots mood and I'm almost done with Gundam.
No Macross Nikkolas?
Mobile Suit Gundam Rebirth A rogue space team called U-FEA is in search for the Beacon of Hope for the future of humanity. They will have to use the blueprints of the Mobile Weapons before them as part of their arsenal to take down the Xen-Dominion.
Nikkolas
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Re: My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

Isn't Macross responsible for Lacus Clyne? Or well her general idea or something was inspired by Macross.
That's what I heard.

I just don't need more Lacus....

Also do you mean like the original SDF Macross? What about Robotech? I know it's a touchy subject with some people which is why I've kinda avoided watching either. (and yes I know all about the sordid history of Robotech and weird anime business dealings and it only being 1/3 Macross and 2/3 something else)
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