My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

[LightningCount]

Playing catch-up here with everyone...

Not trying to derail the thread, honest! Just a momentary interlude, and then I’ll be right back with Gundam:

I will admit that I'm not a fan of the ADV dubs at all. Could never get in with them. Started with, incidentally enough, Evangelion, but have seen plenty of other mecha anime released/dubbed by ADV including RahXephon, Gasaraki and Dunbine and never particularly liked them. And this is coming from someone who usually enjoys dubs a lot. I absolutely hated Asuka's voice in Eva. Although I'll also admit that I absolutely hate the Asuka character.

I sort of know what you mean about ADV. It can really be hit or miss, and/or YMMV. Gasaraki's dub, for instance, is adequate, but not outstanding, and definitely not as good as RahXephon’s (despite sharing a lot of the same cast). Gasaraki’s dub is not one that instantly clicks, and while it's grown on me for the most part, there are still some parts that are hard to listen to. (I have to say I'm glad a series like that has a dub, though). As I understand it, part of ADV's issues early on had to do with them doing non-industry-standard dubbing techniques. (Like going into lines without the three "timing" beeps).

Eureka 7 is a fairly strong show. I just finished a rewatch of it within the last month or so. I would say that both RahXephon and Big O are superior to it. The biggest complaint I have with Eureka 7 is that its a 50 episode show that they could have completed in a much shorter time. I think you could have cut it down to 39 episodes without the show suffering tremendously. I'm not one who denounces character development over plot (after all I do enjoy a lot shows like Escaflowne and RahXephon where mecha battles are sacrificed quite often for increased character development), but I think it swung too far in that direction with Eureka 7. In any case, the design of the show is terrific, fabulous world building, fairly strong music and an excellent English dub. Aside from it dragging out too much it is a quality show that is worth seeing. Have not seen the movie or AO.

I had the same reaction the first time watching Eureka 7, and you're kind of right. In essence, it could have been a shorter series. However, now that I'm more patient and was able to enjoy it more for what it was trying to do with all those extra episodes, I largely liked the extra world building and character development. But, yes, it could have been shorter (and newcomers to it should not expect its pacing to be brisk and concise by any means). However, if it was shorter and faster, it may have lost some of its unique charm. This is one of those series that is really about the journey as much as anything. Oh, and its dub is outstanding. But yes, I personally like RahXephon and The Big-O more, too.

I personally would say at its peak that Eva is better than RahXephon and Big O, but that isn't often. A huge portion of Eva is filler. I'd agree that if simply judging the shows as a whole from beginning to end in terms of level of quality they're both better. Eva wildly fluctuates from extremely frustrating episodes to absolute greatness.

That's more or less what I was saying. I'm not downplaying EVA, but I was never satisfied by EVA as a "series," whereas The Big-O and RahXephon clicked with me when all was said and done. (Though, I'll admit that The Big-O clicked a little faster than RahXephon; despite leaving a strong first and lasting impression, it took a second watching of RahXephon to get its structure and appreciate the nuances of its entire journey). With these Rebuild of EVA movies, and I’ve only seen the first two, it feels like they were trying to address some of EVA’s weaknesses by inserting tones and interactions closer to those of later shows like RahXephon and Fafner. The first Rebuild of EVA movie is probably the best take on EVA I’ve seen in terms of bringing out the series’ strengths.

1. Space Magic was in full effect for drama's sake with Saji and Louise. I was waiting and waiting to see how they'd eventually find out they were "on opposite sides"

but Inever saw that one coming. Bleh.

The use of "Space Magic" becomes very strong in these latter parts. Given the length of 00 Season 2, I found it a tough transition. By the time we're into the Movie that follows Season 2, I was somehow a little more comfortable with it. I think it just has to do with how gritty and grounded the first season was, that the soul-to-soul Newtype-style stuff didn't seem to fit for me. Then again, the Quantum Brainwaves were present, and seemed all right throughout. But that seemed more developed scientifically in-world. Somehow the GN particles' expanding abilities, while fascinating in some ways, felt too rushed and exploited in the plot in Season 2 rather than gradually introduced in some other fashion that might have not made it so tonally different. Not that other series aren’t guilty of such things, but GN particles sort of became more and more used like a deus ex machine. (Speaking from my opinion and memory, mind you). Oh, and by this point, I was fed up with the Saji and Louise subplot, personally. The fact that Saji is sort of “along for the ride” more than anything wasn’t to my liking. If you’re going to bring him into CB here in Season 2 and he’s going to be working with Setsuna, why not have him get to be a little more hands on for the sake of trying to meet and save Louise, and thus deal with the consequences of all the things he was criticizing in Season 1. I mean, he sort of is, but it sort of feels like Haro is doing as much as or more than he is.

2. So Setsuna was about to finish off Ali and then he randomly could hear singing so he stopped? I kinda wish that had happened in MSG or SEED. Char doesn't blow off Kycilia's head or the Archangel doesn't kill Azrael because singing out of nowhere. (I'm just drwing analogies to other evil, evil people who should be killed without hesitation)

The Marina and the children's song part was another element that bugged me. Not because it was there so much as how it's apparently a mass catalyst toward changing minds and moving things toward peace at an accelerated rate. And then, having to still put up with Al-Saachez, who seems to be still in the story because I guess they weren't confident in developing their newer villains, is another problem for me. Aside from his lucky poison bullet trick (a rather shaky subplot in the long term), he's been pretty ineffectual in Season 2. I guess all of this shows Setsuna developing. But it seems strange/hokey to me that some of these elements, like a song, create such spontaneous and drastic development for Setsuna in the plot. He was developing subtly before just fine, but the plot’s number of episodes needs him to develop to a whole new level pretty fast.

3. So is Soma/Marie not going to be fighting ever again? I mean, I kinda get the point in an in-universe sort of way. She never had a choice in the matter and is a victim. She should be kept away from all the violence. But from the perspective of a viewer, it's disappointing.

For one reason or another, planned or unplanned, they didn’t have a place for her or Al in the plot very much, and sort of sidelined them, which, as they were very interesting characters, is disappointing. It started back with that rushed island meeting and the montage, which was an element that didn’t necessarily have to happen so soon in the plot if it was going to totally kill the tension between them and their place in the plot for such a chunk of Season 2.

4. OH NO1 Not Bring Stabity! ...yeah that name is hilarious, even by Gundam standards. Someone really screwed up their English there. His name doesn't fit in with any of the others.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I assumed they meant it to be a play on Bring “Stability.” But people say that’s not the case, so who knows. Maybe it’s just to point out that he’s an enforcer. The best thing about this Innovator was how Tieria defeated him. That was a memorable moment.

5. I do approve of this coup d'etat though. Nobody in the Federation ever said "hold on a minute, these Titans are nuts. We should stop them." So the fact a group had enough sanity to do that in 00 is points to them. Seriously, this colonel guy is pretty cool. His name is...Pang Hercury? The 00 writers are just having a ball with these names aren't they?

One of the best subplots in Season 2, which is resolved rather quickly to make a point about media control, I suppose. I thought Hercury might be a play on Hercules, but I think I was told that’s not the case, either. Anyway, he’s a great character. This is why I said they could have milked out a little more in terms of interesting scenarios from the Kingdom of Suille earlier on, and maybe that would have given Marina a place to flex her character development, since I think they had ties to her kingdom. The flashbacks to the old days with Hercury and Sergei’s wife are very nice, too. I’ve seen and have also been told I had misconceptions about what Season 2 was about, but for me, I would have liked them to play with ideas of larger resistances to A-LAWS like this. Katheron just doesn’t seem to carry enough weight in the plot compared to its presence, especially with Lyle being one of them. The elements are all there, but I felt we were getting a cliff’s notes version. But again, the reason these are quickly moved on from is because there is a certain development regarding GN particles that needs to be made, but I don’t think it had to be one or the other so much.

As an aside, Mr. Bushido’s cameo fight with Trans-Am is amusing, but once again he’s sort of forced away without particularly doing anything.

The part with the falling debris of the tower is interesting and creative. It reminds me of the Break the World incident early in Destiny a little, except, it is given very little on-screen plot significance.

Momento Mori 1’s battle was a great episode; a Momento Mori 2’s sudden appearance and sudden defeat by the suddenly outrageously super-powered 00 Raiser is not very inspired.

There was a time jump after Momento Mori 1’s defeat, and there’s another one after Momento Mori 2. And thre was one somewhere with Anew and Lockon getting together. There is too much happening off screen that we’re supposed to care about later on.

6. Wow, way to go Andre. You already weren't likable and now you killed your very likable father because you're a dumbass. He's gonna go right down there with Nena Trinity in 00 Characters Who Burn For Eternity.

I really did not like this scene. I forget if it was spoiled for me or not, but it struck me as so random in its final placement. I understand that was kind of the point, but it just felt too forced for me, personally. And yes, losing Sergei AND Hercury to get more focus on Andre was not a good trade-off. The Andre plot, despite what it has to say about “understanding,” is made too much of in terms of screen time. I don’t know that any of us really ever “care” for Andre. You know, that guy who was Louise’s superior, he was an A-LAW guy that I thought was better developed than Andre. There is just a lot of these here for one minute, gone the next character moments, even for semi-important ones, that irk me. It’s like, “hey, you’re here, I’m here, I don’t like you, and I’m going to knock you off with extra blind rage to create some tension.”

7. So Soma is back to fighting. If nothing else, Sergei's death did have a positive consequence.

Yes. But it’s sort of annoying that Soma is now defined by that in the plot, and Al is trying to rein her in. I guess they were trying to play off the idea of Sergei’s “children” fighting for his memory.

8. Ya know what my biggest complaint about this second season is? Inconsequential characters. There's so many damned people running around and barely any of them matter. How many Innovators are there and only Ribbons and that Tieria lookalike chick have been given anything resembling a personality. Well I guess there's Anew but whatever. I know i might be contradicting myself here a bit but I really like the character of Klaus, the resistance leader. I like him in part because he's so inconsequential. He stands no chance but he keeps fighting. Contrast with Marina who continues to be useless but doesn't even try to be of help to anyone. Seriously, if the writers of 00 were trying to "criticize" the message iN Wing or whatever they're doing a poor job of it because there was literally an entire episode in Wing dedicated to Relena having to come to terms with the fact that a defense force is necessary, even for a pacifist nation. Refusing to have any arms at all or to fight back when the Evil Empire is right next door is just stupidity, not idealism.

I think my previous comments covered my thoughts on this one. And Klaus is the kind of character that seems like he could have been more than he is, but Katheron just wasn’t going to be that central in meaningful ways throughout, so he can’t do much.

10. Well Lockon's and Anew's relationship has to be the most Sudden and then Abruptly Ended romance in Gundam history. Bleh.

This is one of the elements they seem to stick on to show that Lyle was different than Neil. It does sadly come off as sticking in a UC-style doomed love element for the sake of helping certain audience members relate to the plot. That wasn’t a good sign for me. It sort of works in an artificial way, because you get this sudden injection of betrayal, action, emotions, and tragedy…but I wasn’t comfortable with it in the overall sense given that Lyle is supposed to be one of the main leads. Like Andre killing his father, it’s so sudden. Again, it feels like we meandered around with all these characters, not really getting a full feel or development for many of them, and then there’s a rush to get to the end, and so people come in and out, one way or another.

This is kind of a random thought that isn't a criticism of 00 or anything but has there been an increase in "religious stuff" in more modern Gundams? Like, 00 has a lot of mentions of God and stuff and wasn't there like a church and cross in one of the Unicorn episodes? Treize talks about God a few times too. Like I said, not really a critique but an observation since I don't remember much talk about God or religion or any of that back in 0079, Zeta or CCA.

I think it connects with the cultural consciousness. As religion plays more into cultural and political history, Gundam probably feels the need to include it. It makes a lot of sense. And with 00, in particular, the director said he wanted to reflect the modern world’s conflicts for young people to discuss them.

Per some sources Anew and Lyle were originally supposed to be competing spies, working for Ribbons and Katharon respectively. However, apparently sponsors complained there wasn't a tragic adult romance for housewife viewers and told them to instead turn their interactions into a redo of the Lockon and Tieria stuff from late season one. But hey, I liked Anew

It’s OK to like Anew! She was all right enough, but she deserved a more planned intro and exit. I apologize if I come off as too blunt or flippant with some of my reactions in this process. It all comes down to perspective, and we’re all allowed to like or dislike different things. Right there, the spy story you’re mentioning, I could see that totally working! It would give a lot more meaning to both characters and intrigue to the plot and involvement for Katheron and the idea of Innovators as observers. Too often, we see one-note combat-type Innovators, that it’s easy to forget they were developed to be observers of happenings in different places and such for Veda. I would have loved to see that more involved in the plot. Anew could have been the perfect one to do that with, too, since she wouldn’t have to be Tieria, who was always piloting for CB, or Ribbons, who just seemed like a servant for Alejandro. Those two were spying in a way, but we didn’t know about what Innovators were all about, and so their placement makes that secondary.

Spoiler

In the Movie, we see Innovators are still around in normal situations and in political places, so it makes you wonder how this could have played out earlier in Season 2.

I would have liked the idea of Innovators observing events taken a little further.

Well, that’s all I’ve got for now. It's not all bad, and I don't mean to sound overly harsh. I'm just expressing my gut reactions from my own experience. Everyone's experiences are skewed in one way or another, though, so that's part of it.

[Nikkolas]

1. Wow, Lu Mei, her bro and Nena all killed in one episode. Translation: we don't know what the hell we're doing, wrap this up as soon as possible, kill all side characters with their own subplots as soon as possible. I guess I shouldn't complain, they killed tow lousy characters off. However I can totally understand the complaints about Saji and Louise returning. It's not even a matter of them being in he military now, at least not for me. it's that they have almost hijacked the main plot. They used to just be side characters who had to deal with the fallout of war but now they're pretty much right in there with the main story and they don't deserve to be.

2. Setsuna defeating Graham at the start of Episode 22 and shouting philosophy at him really hammers home how far he has kinda falen. I mean, I liked Kamille, I even liked (SEED) Kira and Amuro and Heero but they are all very different types of heroes from Setsuna. Heero was teh closest to him but he was never quite as bad as Setsuna and so when he started yelling MY IDEOLOGY at Zechs I didn't mind it so much. It's a tried-and-true staple of Gundam that I expect at this point. But Setsuna doing it to Graham felt really out-of-place when you take into account his S1 personality. Robo-Setsuna was pretty unique as Gundam protagonists go but what he has become is much less compelling simply because it's been done before and quite a lot. (Probably even more than I am aware of given the other Gundam series out there like ZZ, A, X and Victory. Do the various protagonists there indulge in mid-fight philosophical arguments too?)

3. This has nothing to do with anything but everytime they say "the 0 Gundam" it makes me think of Scirocco's Gundam, The O. I wish they would just call it the Zero Gundam.

4. And thus died Regene Regetta Why did she even exist?

5. This whole "the dialogues to come" stuff, is that alluding to the aliens in the movie? The best method for human-alien interaction is to have the Innovators speak for us? That's...an interesting take on things, although I'm probably wrong about all that.

6. Some pretty rockin' music in these last few episodes though. Whatever track is playing as the Meisters attack Ribbons' ship in Episode 23 is pretty great.

7. So Tieria being killed was the best thing he could do for the plot as now he's part of Veda and can not only disable the villains' forces but reveal the entire Plot. How handy. Looks like my thoughts about the "dialogues to come' were right. Yay.

8. Well that was at least a pretty sweet ending with Pat and Kati. Rest I can take or leave.

So that's 00 Season 2. It...wasn't Destiny-bad. I'd say it was more underwhelming than outright awful. I think most of the hate comes from people who really loved Season 1 and I only liked Season 1. I was never in love with 00 at any point so while I can see the changes and dislike them, I don't hate them. I'll give my thoughts on all of 00 after the film.

Later I'll watch the 00 movie and F91 and then I guess that will be the end. Well of the visual dubbed material. I still wanna read Crossbone Gundam.

Oh and I gotta say that one of my favorite voices in the 00 dub is Soma's. I can't believe i didn't realize it was Fllay's voice-actress. She has this kind of lisp that is great because for Fllay it makes her even more irritating while with Soma it makes her kinda endearing. Tabitha St. Germain is her name.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/C ... aStGermain


EDIT:
This has nothing to do with any of the rest of my post but I'm gonna get Gundam vs. Zeta Gundam next time I have some cash and so I was watching videos of it on YT.
http://youtu.be/h9qvaMRkMb8?t=2m43s

Kamille's "you're someone who shouldn't be allowed to exist anymore!" to Haman is really kinda..it's very strongly worded I guess. I'm pretty sure it's in the anime too but I guess I just never noticed it before. I realize in effect he's just saying he's gonna kill her but the chosen word "exist" makes it sound so much more....visceral, like he's saying her very act of being is a cancer to the universe and he needs to vaporize her in body and soul.

I never watched ZZ obviously but it seems people have kinda lax feelings about Haman like she wasn't actually so terrible or evil so that's why the quote stuck out to me.

[LightningCount]

1. Wow, Lu Mei, her bro and Nena all killed in one episode. Translation: we don't know what the hell we're doing, wrap this up as soon as possible, kill all side characters with their own subplots as soon as possible. I guess I shouldn't complain, they killed tow lousy characters off. However I can totally understand the complaints about Saji and Louise returning. It's not even a matter of them being in he military now, at least not for me. it's that they have almost hijacked the main plot. They used to just be side characters who had to deal with the fallout of war but now they're pretty much right in there with the main story and they don't deserve to be.

This is the kind of frustrating handling of characters, especially S1 characters, I was getting at in my unfortunate wall of text above this latest post of yours. It was sort of neat how Louise got her hollow and tearful revenge on Nena, but the way the characters were treated all season, it's like they were just saved for that moment rather than making them really breathe within the plot in an engaging way. I did like some of the sneaking around/information exchanges that happened with Setsuna and Wang Lu Mei toward the end, though. (I wish she and her brother had been given more time and missions, as they had interesting potential).

As I recall, GN magic healed Louise from death's door, and Setsuna, too. That made me sort of wish they hadn't even brought in the red particle poisoning if that's what was going to happen. I think the creators decided that Saji and Louise encapsulated what 00 is all about, but then had trouble putting them into the plot with the established players, and so thing started to get jumbled in awkward ways that made everyone have a place, but not much of an organic impact in the plot. There were moments where it worked, like Setsuna talking to Louise, or Setsuna first meeting Saji. But in the end, not so much for me.

2. Setsuna defeating Graham at the start of Episode 22 and shouting philosophy at him really hammers home how far he has kinda falen. I mean, I liked Kamille, I even liked (SEED) Kira and Amuro and Heero but they are all very different types of heroes from Setsuna. Heero was teh closest to him but he was never quite as bad as Setsuna and so when he started yelling MY IDEOLOGY at Zechs I didn't mind it so much. It's a tried-and-true staple of Gundam that I expect at this point. But Setsuna doing it to Graham felt really out-of-place when you take into account his S1 personality. Robo-Setsuna was pretty unique as Gundam protagonists go but what he has become is much less compelling simply because it's been done before and quite a lot. (Probably even more than I am aware of given the other Gundam series out there like ZZ, A, X and Victory. Do the various protagonists there indulge in mid-fight philosophical arguments too?)

The mid-flight arguments are a part of Gundam and the mecha genre. I think what bothered me in terms of Setsuna was the way that Marina's song, and this memory of Lockon saying he had to change for him, and the 00's GN particles themselves made Setsuna go from being a child soldier being humanized gradually into this enlightened being who is screaming by the end for everyone to "change." It's one thing for a Gundam hero to spout off to his rival, but it's another for the Gundam hero to be calling out to everyone. And you have Andre at the end crying about how he wishes there had been more communication and understanding between him and his father, and such. (We endured Andre's antics and plot-chewing just for that one line?) It just had too much of that UC ethereal, do-aything Newtype stuff that I'm not crazy about, and especially not crazy about given the impressions 00 S1 left me with. At least it saved Graham to be able to be his old self again. But couldn't he have been saved from his extremism earlier and done something else in the plot?

7. So Tieria being killed was the best thing he could do for the plot as now he's part of Veda and can not only disable the villains' forces but reveal the entire Plot. How handy. Looks like my thoughts about the "dialogues to come' were right. Yay.

It seems the series was ultimately about getting to this point. I kind of wish that had been clearer or more developed earlier. In of itself, Season 2 seems like it's mostly about setting up the Movie rather than being interesting in a self-contained way. For me, without the Movie to back it up, Season 2 feels sort of hollow.

The final S2 confrontations are pretty entertaining, but this season's climax was not as powerful as Season 1's for me. The Gundams fighting until they're all but trashed and trying to make you think all the pilots are going to die was a little overdone. The one final fight I didn't like as much as I thought I would was Setsuna vs. Ribbons. I'm not sure why that was, in spite of the twist of their past history revealed earlier, which was nice. But I will say that the final part of the battle where they're able to swap Gundams and such felt crammed in just to deliver a thematic message about the beginning of the series and the Gundam series at large. Unfortunately, it came off a little corny and fan-servicey to me. (Speaking of which, there was a lot of new hardware coming out of the woodwork at the very end with minimal explanation).

And Al-Saachez vs. Lyle...it's entertaining, but it just sort of repeats the fact that Al-Saachez could have been left dead in the plot of Season 1. The fact that Lyle said earlier how he wasn't his brother and didn't get hung up on old vendettas made this final confrontation all the more odd in some ways. I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the second Lockon in the end.

I really liked Al/Hal taking it to the Innovators, though.

It was ironic how Lasse finally got to pilot 0 Gundam, since he was supposed to be backup Meister all along, and yet this is the first time he actually gets to fight, when there have been openings before. (Wait, wasn't he miraculously cured by GN particles, too?)

The Gagas didn't do much for me, and Billy's character and confrontation with Sumeragi...I didn't think it was totally off, but it didn't feel as meaningful as one would think. I just think Billy's development in this season was too piecemeal and extreme for me to really get a feel for him. And by the epilogue, he's turned it all off, like a switch, and is back to his old self with Graham.

The final involvement of Kati and Katheron coming to the rescue was nice enough, but also very sudden and convenient. I think I would have preferred more on-screen development of this stuff.

8. Well that was at least a pretty sweet ending with Pat and Kati. Rest I can take or leave.

Pat always comes out smelling like a rose. It's a really odd element for a series like this, but I can understand its charm in a way.

You mentioned music at one point, and S2 does have about 2 or 3 really standout BGMs that I noticed.

So that's 00 Season 2. It...wasn't Destiny-bad. I'd say it was more underwhelming than outright awful. I think most of the hate comes from people who really loved Season 1 and I only liked Season 1. I was never in love with 00 at any point so while I can see the changes and dislike them, I don't hate them. I'll give my thoughts on all of 00 after the film.

Yeah, I grew to really like a vast majority of Season 1, even if I would have liked elements of it expounded on, so Season 2 threw me for a loop. But taken in the context of the totality of the 00 series, Season 2 gets its job done. I just think it did it in a largely underwhelming or non-compelling fashion in execution. I think that its plot as a "series" is better seen through than Destiny, but that Destiny may have had more interesting individual elements and character interactions along the way--the character of Durandal himself being one example.

But I am being pretty nitpicky with some of this, and in the past, especially when I first watched 00 S2, I think I have been overly negative about all this. (Heck, I was really overcritical about elements of 00 S1, and in retrospect, I give it a ton of credit). In the end, as I've said elsewhere, it's all about how perceived positives and negatives of a series add up for the individual watching it. It's not like any other series is perfect or flawless, it's just a matter of how things add up in the end for a specific viewer. 00, in its basic setup and elements, was as close to what I wanted to see from Gundam as anything in recent years, and so I brought a lot of passion to my viewing experience. As a result, one is bound to have strong gut reactions one way or the other. So, I don't want anyone to lose their love for any series they enjoy just because of my passionate, opinionated nature.

Random note: I don't know that the Innovators (I mean, "Innovades") hanging out in flowing white garments did them any favors in their presentation as observers and spies. It made them seem more aloof and removed. On the other hand, I get that it was supposed to make them seem "angelic." I'm not sure what to think about the inclusion of CB formal uniforms almost all of the time in S2, though.

Later I'll watch the 00 movie and F91 and then I guess that will be the end. Well of the visual dubbed material. I still wanna read Crossbone Gundam.

The 00 Movie is like the Endless Waltz of 00. It makes for a nice curtain call that wraps up many loose ends. Despite a few nitpicks, I think it leaves a pretty good last impression of the 00 franchise and its cast. (I wish SEED/Destiny had something comparable). I somehow felt more comfortable with the Movie than with S2, which both helps and hurts S2 in my mind. I've watched the Movie twice, and I noticed that I liked it more the second time, when I broke it up into two viewings. The Movie throws a lot at you, and it can be exhausting for one viewing. Its plot skews a bit toward elements of other anime, but it still manages to feel like a 00 tale.

F91 can be viewed as a updated remix of the Universal Century or almost an alternate universe tale. Taken for what it is, I've found a good deal to like about it.

Well, we'll see what your final thoughts are of 00 after the Movie, and where it ranks for you. (And where F91 ranks, I suppose).

[Kratos]

No ZZ, CCA, or Unicorn on the horizon?

ZZ is pretty divisive, but CCA is the Char/Amuro swan song and Unicorn is a very solid cap on the eary UC saga (unless the final episode completely butchers things, anyways).

EDIT: forgot you're only doing dubbed material. Still, that only cuts out ZZ; CCA and Unicorn are both dubbed (and the latter even has a rather excellent one).

[Nikkolas]

I've watched CCA and up to Unicorn episode 5. I didn't care for either. As you said CCA felt like it was just the Amuro and Char Show, like someone said "we have to have Amuro and Char have a climactic battle!" and all logic or reason or good writing was sacrificed for this. Every other character besides them feel shallow and unnecessary.

Unicorn was okay I guess but I wasn't really feeling it. I'll finish it eventually.

[Kratos]

That's a shame - Unicorn's a personal favourite of mine, and I feel one of the thematically strongest works in the franchise.

Might be worth tackling it again once it's complete, and now that you've watched all more of the stuff leading up to it (or did you watch it after your Zeta viewing?)

[HellCat]

1. Wow, Lu Mei, her bro and Nena all killed in one episode. Translation: we don't know what the hell we're doing, wrap this up as soon as possible, kill all side characters with their own subplots as soon as possible. I guess I shouldn't complain, they killed tow lousy characters off. However I can totally understand the complaints about Saji and Louise returning. It's not even a matter of them being in he military now, at least not for me. it's that they have almost hijacked the main plot. They used to just be side characters who had to deal with the fallout of war but now they're pretty much right in there with the main story and they don't deserve to be.

I don't know if I agree. I remember when 00 was airing and the minimal explanation for Wang led to people creating elaborate backstories for her. Said people were the most enraged when it was revealed she was just a selfish if capable little rich girl who wanted certain power after her life didn't go exactly the way she wanted. I don't really mind because I felt the clues were being built up, especially that moment where Ribbons mocks her for only being in her early 20s and already panicking over 'lost youth'.

As for Saji and Louise- I don't see them as side characters. The point of 00 in part was to do a story that gives various points of view. You have CB themselves, the military that opposes them, the governments with their own angle, the journalists, etc. Saji and Louise start off as a civillian sideline but their path was about slowly but surely bringing them into the main events. I love that Saji in particular is arguably closer to a traditional Gundam lead then Setsuna and has to function in a war situation when he refuses to directly kill. By the end of the season Innovator Setsuna made seeing that through a bit too easy for him but I think if you removed Saji and Louise you'd take a big piece of the heart of the show.

As for Louise herself....I admit I'm dissapointed. Would have love to have seen her as a matured young woman who had chosen to enlist due to her personal demons, not the drug chugging prototype-Innovator puppet who needed to be rescued like a fairytale princess.

2. Setsuna defeating Graham at the start of Episode 22 and shouting philosophy at him really hammers home how far he has kinda falen. I mean, I liked Kamille, I even liked (SEED) Kira and Amuro and Heero but they are all very different types of heroes from Setsuna. Heero was teh closest to him but he was never quite as bad as Setsuna and so when he started yelling MY IDEOLOGY at Zechs I didn't mind it so much. It's a tried-and-true staple of Gundam that I expect at this point. But Setsuna doing it to Graham felt really out-of-place when you take into account his S1 personality. Robo-Setsuna was pretty unique as Gundam protagonists go but what he has become is much less compelling simply because it's been done before and quite a lot. (Probably even more than I am aware of given the other Gundam series out there like ZZ, A, X and Victory. Do the various protagonists there indulge in mid-fight philosophical arguments too?)

The whole point of season 2 is how Setsuna changes and matures. He's already showing positive signs when we see him sneaking around and using Exia Repair but Innovation basically rewires his brain and increases his perception. He becomes more aware of himself and others and this is the thread they use Graham for. Graham has become like Setsuna was in season one, living only for war and defining his existance by Gundam. Setsuna preaching to him is correcting what he sees as his mistake in the exact same way he sees the matter with Saji and Louise. The movie expands on this further, giving Setsuna some room to breathe in what becoming an Innovator means and if he's actually comfortable with it.

4. And thus died Regene Regetta Why did she even exist?

Now this is one I can't defend. They kept telling us Regene was important and really he wasn't. He even gets a rather pointless appearance in 00I where he gains a form of ultimate power briefly. The manga of the main show is almost entirely horrible but they actually made Regene work by having him as a consistent mole in the villain group who was working to help Tieria and his allies. In that take his final action is to drop the cloak on the Celestial Being to spite Ribbons and begin the final battle. For a telling that gets so much wrong, it does that part so much better.

7. So Tieria being killed was the best thing he could do for the plot as now he's part of Veda and can not only disable the villains' forces but reveal the entire Plot. How handy. Looks like my thoughts about the "dialogues to come' were right. Yay.

Apparently guidebooks claim that Veda was slowly turning against Ribbons when it became aware Setsuna had awoken as an Innovator and that one thing it did was hide the existance of Kati's rebellion from him. The gist is that Veda was slowly putting things into place to liberate itself from Ribbons and Tieria was part of this. Apparently this is why Regene gets involved in that scene but if so it really isn't communicated well. Doesn't help that in the show Veda is treated as a powerful resource while the sidestories present Veda as an entity in itself, spinning plans within plans that will step on anyone to achieve the end goal.

[Sinquser]

Apparently guidebooks claim that Veda was slowly turning against Ribbons when it became aware Setsuna had awoken as an Innovator

From what I remember, they said it was doing that from the start. That is kind of Regene's point through the first 9 episodes of Season 2. Veda is hiding so much info from the Innovades, and Ribbons keeps on falling into its pitfalls because of his hubris. When Ribbons acknowledged the power of TDS, it was too late.

IIRC, according to Official Files, Regene's role was to contribute (unknowingly) to Ribbon's downfall (Tieria replaced Regene after the later was killed by Ali al-Saachez). I kind of felt this role was already set in stone, but his disappearance from the spotlight after episode 9 up to seventeen weaken it. And when the four month timeskip is considered, that's a low blow when even the novels only said that Regene's activity throughout that time frame was to lure Wang Liu Mei into his plans.

[HellCat]

Ah good, more accurate information is always welcome

[LightningCount]

Ah good, more accurate information is always welcome

Yeah, that is some useful and interesting information. I don't know that I ever got that Veda was such an entity. I just figured that Shenberg had purposefully hidden some info from his Innovades. Some of the characters popping in and out, like Regene, didn't have as much leeway to do so because of the length of the season.

Anyway, we've talked about the masked men in the past, and a random question popped into my mind. Char has a vocal theme song. (Here Comes Char--"Char, Char, Char!") I forget, does that theme song ever appear in the 0079 anime TV series or trilogy movies? Because that'd be a really unique thing for a masked man, and that tune sort of gives him an extra special air. Somehow, in the back of my mind, I think it was in animation; otherwise, I don't know where I first heard it. I guess I could have just run across it online at some point, though.

[HellCat]

The thing is I believe various sources say Aeolia apparently didn't do much. He composed a basic plan but most of what he did was theoretical and when he froze himself most of the stuff needed for his plan to work didn't exist. I'm sure I'm missing a reference but among other things that makes me question the 'system trap', since Trans-Am doesn't work without GN condensers and GN condensers weren't created until 0 Gundam proved to waste GN particles by simply having a drive.

Either way I feel it makes Aeolia interesting for his flaws. For ages the biggest scrap of official info we had was 'Aeolia was neither a particularly good or bad man' and it shows. The plan in its own way is pretty selfish, as is freezing only himself to witness the new world. Makes me wonder what would have happened had he survived. The epilogue to the movie seems to have some subtle well done hypocrisy in Aeolia's world view.

[mcred23]

Anyway, we've talked about the masked men in the past, and a random question popped into my mind. Char has a vocal theme song. (Here Comes Char--"Char, Char, Char!") I forget, does that theme song ever appear in the 0079 anime TV series or trilogy movies? Because that'd be a really unique thing for a masked man, and that tune sort of gives him an extra special air. Somehow, in the back of my mind, I think it was in animation; otherwise, I don't know where I first heard it. I guess I could have just run across it online at some point, though.

Some quick Google-fu and checking of the episodes myself shows it is used twice in the show. Part of it, from the second half of the song, with the lyrics, is used late in the episode Lalah's Dilemma (Episode 40 of the Japanese numbering, 39 elsewhere), but it was replaced by a different piece of music for the English release. However, a section of the instrumental middle part (About a minute into the song) is the music being played over the radio by the soldier partying in Amuro's old house in episode 13, and that was retained in the English versions. I don't think it was used anywhere else in the show, and I don't recall it at all in the movies, since my first memory of hearing the whole song (And particularly the "Char, Char, Char!" bit) came from seeing/hearing it online somewhere.

[AmuroNT1]

The song was in Federation vs Zeon, even the US release; if you use Char, the song plays by default in your first stage.

[Dark Duel]

I would have to double-check, but IIRC it also plays in at least some of the OYW missions in which Char shows up in Gundam vs Zeta Gundam.

[LightningCount]

mcred23, AmuroNT1, Dark Duel: Thank you for the Here Comes Char info. It's likely I first heard it in the Federation vs. Zeon game after hearing all of your info. (I think I would have liked to hear it in-series a little more, though).

Hellcat: Aeolia was very interesting, I must say. It was kind of sad when he got taken out in the ice by Alejandro.

Anyway, I finally got around to watching Unicorn Ep.5 on PSN, so I'll have to post my thoughts about that soon in the Unicorn thread. I wonder when Nikkolas will be back here with his thoughts on the 00 Movie and F91?

[Kratos]

LightningCount, be sure to rewatch 1-4 of Unicorn before tackling 5, especially if it's been a while. Despite the release schedule, it's a far more rewarding show if everything is watched in close proximity.

[LightningCount]

LightningCount, be sure to rewatch 1-4 of Unicorn before tackling 5, especially if it's been a while. Despite the release schedule, it's a far more rewarding show if everything is watched in close proximity.

I watched 1-3 around their release schedule, then took a break, and now have watched 4 and 5 within a few months of one another. I posted my thoughts in the Unicorn thread, and I admit there is a +/- aspect since I have watched them so infrequently in the big picture. I do think it'd be better if I watched them all at once, but I've been renting them on PSN, and that format doesn't allow for ease of marathon-watching. I went that route because the Blu-ray prices were atrocious when it first came out, and the DVDs came too late. Now that Rightstuf has picked Unicorn up and is re-releasing everything on DVD, I might have gone that route. But I've already put too much money into the rentals that could have gone toward the DVDs, and I don't know that I like a majority of Unicorn enough to want to own it right now. Anyway, long and short of my thoughts in the other thread: 5 was better than 4 overall, and I had a fun time, but I'm still not hooked.

[Nikkolas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAaYMcrppmI

Looking at that ending again, it's interesting that we get a more or less solid idea of what everyone is doing. Duo, Hilde, Quatre, Trowa and Catherine are all living in peace, Wufei and Sally are still fighting (very fitting he is the only Pilot who can't just live happily ever after in peace) , Zechs and Noin are doing what they mentioned in EW and Relena is still being a politician/leader.

Then there's Heero...just kinda walking. He's the only one you can't get a grasp on what he's doing with his life now.

Also made no progress on the 00 Movie or F91. Been distracted by video games. Plus I think I may be Gundam'ed out for the moment. Might move onto some of the other series we discussed earlier.

[LightningCount]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAaYMcrppmI

Looking at that ending again, it's interesting that we get a more or less solid idea of what everyone is doing. Duo, Hilde, Quatre, Trowa and Catherine are all living in peace, Wufei and Sally are still fighting (very fitting he is the only Pilot who can't just live happily ever after in peace) , Zechs and Noin are doing what they mentioned in EW and Relena is still being a politician/leader.

Then there's Heero...just kinda walking. He's the only one you can't get a grasp on what he's doing with his life now.

Also made no progress on the 00 Movie or F91. Been distracted by video games. Plus I think I may be Gundam'ed out for the moment. Might move onto some of the other series we discussed earlier.

As I mentioned once, there are different scene selections in the OVA and Movie versions. You posted the Movie's ending, but the OVA's ending (sans its different music) shows a similar thing but in a different way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uicKn5Q6xH4

In here, Heero does seem like he'll be watching after Relena and the peace, but not in an official capacity. Or, perhaps he's seeing the peace working, and walking away from the stage of history for a new life.

Someone spliced the two endings together with the original ending theme, which is what the Movie version should have done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKyuRnhExNA

You've gone through a lot of series in a short time. Gundam'ed out happens to us all. I've been there, and I've returned. I think Gundam's enduring strength, despite its shortcomings and missteps, is that it probably does the humanity vs. humanity political battle story with mecha more consistently than any other animated franchise. But still, outside of finishing the "event title" of Unicorn, I don't have any particular passion for what's coming up or what's been out since 00 finished up.

Other mecha series, on the other hand, tend to get their strengths from otherworldly, esoteric, and/or emotional/character-driven stories better than Gundam, and that's a refreshing, very enjoyable, and equally valid angle. However, those that try to copy Gundam straight up don't usually come out right in my experience, and few series deliver the kind of consistent variety of action Gundam does, which means one has to change their expectations when going into these other series to get the most out of them. And there is a lot to get out of them, don't get me wrong.