The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk III

[excalibur2008]

, but I could have totally seen an "Athrun's Counterattack" scenario for the future of C.E. (They did say they wanted the SEED Movie to be remembered in that caliber early on before it was cancelled, as I recall from, I believe, GUNOTA Headlines.)

Well if they went that way hopefully Athrun becomes a more competent military leader before that or it would be a rather short campaign.

You mean having child soldiers under his command and committing mass murder indiscriminately leaves room for ambiguity?
Now I've heard everything.

Having a child soldier means nothing.

True otherwise most protagonist sided factions in Gundam series would be facing war crime charges because their best soldiers are usually about 16 or younger.

[Erisie]

, but I could have totally seen an "Athrun's Counterattack" scenario for the future of C.E. (They did say they wanted the SEED Movie to be remembered in that caliber early on before it was cancelled, as I recall from, I believe, GUNOTA Headlines.)
Well if they went that way hopefully Athrun becomes a more competent military leader before that or it would be a rather short campaign.

Such an scenario doesn't make much sense. Athrun has already broken with Kira twice already. Do the same thing again would be a bit tiresome. Besides, he doesn't have it in him to be an interesting antagonist/villain. Athrun flip-flopping his loyalties over and over is one of the worst parts about his characterization. You could even say that he only does what Lacus tells him to do.

Now, Shinn is a much more interesting candidate. Pity that the Final Plus made him another mindless Kira drone, but the original finale (crying in the Moon's surface with a damaged Destiny) would make him an interesting counterpart for the "good guys" and their hegemony.

Having a child soldier means nothing.

Oh, for the love of... Destiny couldn't have been more blatant to describe how evil the Extended's programme was. Apart from being child soldiers, they were conditioned, enhanced and brainwashed in a facility modeled after a concentration camp. And Neo/Mwu was a part of that.

[monster]

Oh, for the love of... Destiny couldn't have been more blatant to describe how evil the Extended's programme was. Apart from being child soldiers, they were conditioned, enhanced and brainwashed in a facility modeled after a concentration camp. And Neo/Mwu was a part of that.

That's not the issue. The issue is whether the Archangel crew accepted him with knowledge of his part in the Extended program, and there is no reason to believe that they even knew about the Extended program.

[BrentD15]

Oh, for the love of... Destiny couldn't have been more blatant to describe how evil the Extended's programme was. Apart from being child soldiers, they were conditioned, enhanced and brainwashed in a facility modeled after a concentration camp. And Neo/Mwu was a part of that.

That's not the issue. The issue is whether the Archangel crew accepted him with knowledge of his part in the Extended program, and there is no reason to believe that they even knew about the Extended program.

And since he never bothered to bring up the fact that he was part of their child soldier experimentation program, he gets away with it.
Mu La Flaga went from being one of the best to one of the worst.

[monster]

And since he never bothered to bring up the fact that he was part of their child soldier experimentation program, he gets away with it.
Mu La Flaga went from being one of the best to one of the worst.

The child soldier experimentation had been going on without him. He's just ordered to lead a group of them on missions.

[ShadowCell]

but we, the audience, know that he's been an accessory to ghastly child soldier experimentation, unavoidably so since we not only see him serve as their commanding officer in the field but he also oversees the maintenance made necessary by said ghastly experimenation. the Archangel crew evidently does not know that, but that's pretty difficult to believe when they also have access to a super ultra awesome intelligence network that we are i guess supposed to believe has no idea that the amnesiac dude the Archangel just accepted into their ranks was also knee-deep in ghastly war crimes because i guess while even Walmart will do background checks, Terminal can't be bothered.

hence the gaping hole.

[latenlazy]

even Walmart will do background checks, Terminal can't be bothered.

Terminal, the Uber of CE

[BrentD15]

but we, the audience, know that he's been an accessory to ghastly child soldier experimentation, unavoidably so since we not only see him serve as their commanding officer in the field but he also oversees the maintenance made necessary by said ghastly experimenation. the Archangel crew evidently does not know that, but that's pretty difficult to believe when they also have access to a super ultra awesome intelligence network that we are i guess supposed to believe has no idea that the amnesiac dude the Archangel just accepted into their ranks was also knee-deep in ghastly war crimes because i guess while even Walmart will do background checks, Terminal can't be bothered.

hence the gaping hole.

And also the fact that this guy's the Zombie of Endimyon.

[monster]

but we, the audience, know that he's been an accessory to ghastly child soldier experimentation, unavoidably so since we not only see him serve as their commanding officer in the field but he also oversees the maintenance made necessary by said ghastly experimenation. the Archangel crew evidently does not know that, but that's pretty difficult to believe when they also have access to a super ultra awesome intelligence network that we are i guess supposed to believe has no idea that the amnesiac dude the Archangel just accepted into their ranks was also knee-deep in ghastly war crimes because i guess while even Walmart will do background checks, Terminal can't be bothered.

hence the gaping hole.

As far as I can see, Terminal deals with information on ZAFT or general movement. And it probably doesn't look into things unless Lacus asks them to keep an eye on things. The Extended project could be well outside their assignment/capability.

[BrentD15]

but we, the audience, know that he's been an accessory to ghastly child soldier experimentation, unavoidably so since we not only see him serve as their commanding officer in the field but he also oversees the maintenance made necessary by said ghastly experimenation. the Archangel crew evidently does not know that, but that's pretty difficult to believe when they also have access to a super ultra awesome intelligence network that we are i guess supposed to believe has no idea that the amnesiac dude the Archangel just accepted into their ranks was also knee-deep in ghastly war crimes because i guess while even Walmart will do background checks, Terminal can't be bothered.

hence the gaping hole.

As far as I can see, Terminal deals with information on ZAFT or general movement. And it probably doesn't look into things unless Lacus asks them to keep an eye on things. The Extended project could be well outside their assignment/capability.

If they willing to only pay attention to ZAFT while completely ignoring what's going on with Blue Cosmos and LOGOS, they're pretty stupid.

[monster]

If they willing to only pay attention to ZAFT while completely ignoring what's going on with Blue Cosmos and LOGOS, they're pretty stupid.

It's not like they're a government-funded organization. They probably know ZAFT because they have people already in or coming from ZAFT.

[BrentD15]

If they willing to only pay attention to ZAFT while completely ignoring what's going on with Blue Cosmos and LOGOS, they're pretty stupid.

It's not like they're a government-funded organization. They probably know ZAFT because they have people already in or coming from ZAFT.

If they can get people in ZAFT, then why couldn't they get people into the Blue Cosmos? No Naturals in their ranks? They keep getting found and killed?

[HellCat]

So the advanced information network that in Destiny favoured Lacus and her allies was simply blind to any faction or info that would highlight failings of the script on a character and motivation level?

Seriously, monster, that's what it's sounding like you're saying. You're less explaining things are you are making wild excuses to cover any faults in a show you like. Fans don't need to do that. Again, I love 00 but I'll point and sigh at the stuff that was done poorly. Even being charitable and considering that there are locked doors even a group like Terminal can't get behind, you're just going 'LA LA, NOT LISTENING' rather than presenting valid reasons for why these things shouldn't matter/aren't addressed.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

What exactly do we know about Terminal, anyway? I was under the impression that it was mostly Clyne loyalists embedded in various parts of ZAFT, feeding information back to Lacus/the Clyne Faction/the Three Ships Alliance/whatever you want to call them. The bulk of the intelligence attributed to them is ZAFT mecha designs, after all. There's nothing in Destiny to suggest that Terminal is some sort of all-knowing Illuminati of intelligence organizations, or even that they have particular insight into the activities of the Earth Alliance, Blue Cosmos, or Logos. (Of course, there's certainly enough additional material around that there could easily be something I'm not aware of that does suggest that...)

On the broader point, I'm not entirely sure what Mu-as-Neo does that's supposed to be so unforgivably heinous. He got put in command of Phantom Pain, which was basically enforcers for Logos (and by extension Blue Cosmos), yes, but the guy was amnesiac and (presumably) brainwashed. It's not like he could have said no. And his actions within the bounds of being Phantom Pain's head honcho aren't exactly terrible. He genuinely cares for the well-being of his men (and the Extended in particular), and does what he can for them within the limits of his authority (ie, it's not like he could have said "using brainwashed, chemically altered, mentally unstable teenagers as disposable super-soldiers is bad, I'm taking the Extended off the front lines"). He doesn't order anything obviously evil, like attacking civilians or using weapons of mass destruction. Most of the complaints against him seem to boil down to "being commander of Phantom Pain" rather than anything specific -- and again, it's not like he had any choice about that.

And honestly, what is the Archangel supposed to do? They capture an enemy pilot, who appears to be an old comrade they've thought dead for years. Said pilot consciously denies any connection to this presumed-dead man, but unconsciously reveals (in a number of ways) evidence that they are, in fact, the same person. Are they supposed to say "welp, guess our friend is gone, now let's crucify this enemy bastard he's become in the meantime"? Or is it more understandable for them to say "our friend's not himself, let's keep an eye on him and see if we can snap him out of it"?

[BrentD15]

He doesn't order anything obviously evil, like attacking civilians or using weapons of mass destruction.

But he does.
He has Stella in the Destroy Gundam and tells her that she'll die if she doesn't destroy all the "bad things" (aka, all non-Blue Cosmos supporters, including civilians).

[monster]

If they can get people in ZAFT, then why couldn't they get people into the Blue Cosmos? No Naturals in their ranks? They keep getting found and killed?

If they are formed from people who are or were from ZAFT, perhaps as an extension of the Clyne faction who opposed Patrick Zala, then it makes sense why they wouldn't have people in the EA.

So the advanced information network that in Destiny favoured Lacus and her allies was simply blind to any faction or info that would highlight failings of the script on a character and motivation level?

I didn't realize Terminal is responsible for the script.

Seriously, monster, that's what it's sounding like you're saying. You're less explaining things are you are making wild excuses to cover any faults in a show you like. Fans don't need to do that. Again, I love 00 but I'll point and sigh at the stuff that was done poorly. Even being charitable and considering that there are locked doors even a group like Terminal can't get behind, you're just going 'LA LA, NOT LISTENING' rather than presenting valid reasons for why these things shouldn't matter/aren't addressed.

All I'm saying is that, from what we see in the show, Terminal may not be an organization that covers everything, and I gave what I think is a plausible reason for why it is the way it is. We don't even know its actual size, capability, or level of engagement. Or do we?

If you think I gave wild excuses, then please feel free to tell my why you think that. I don't think what I said is unreasonable given what is presented in the show.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

He has Stella in the Destroy Gundam and tells her that she'll die if she doesn't destroy all the "bad things" (aka, all non-Blue Cosmos supporters, including civilians).

That was on direct orders from Djibril, wasn't it? Like I said, he did what he could within his authority. Telling Logos "no, I refuse to follow that order" would have gotten him relieved of command at best and summarily executed at worst.

[BrentD15]

He has Stella in the Destroy Gundam and tells her that she'll die if she doesn't destroy all the "bad things" (aka, all non-Blue Cosmos supporters, including civilians).

That was on direct orders from Djibril, wasn't it? Like I said, he did what he could within his authority. Telling Logos "no, I refuse to follow that order" would have gotten him relieved of command at best and summarily executed at worst.

So, he's like Reccoa Londe (post-defection) from Zeta Gundam?
Committing war crimes under the threat of punishment from her superiors even though she doesn't like the fact she's doing it?

In fact, did Neo express any displeasure at all from the things he was committing and associating himself with?

[monster]

That was on direct orders from Djibril, wasn't it? Like I said, he did what he could within his authority. Telling Logos "no, I refuse to follow that order" would have gotten him relieved of command at best and summarily executed at worst.

Actually, I believe saying that he is only following orders is not a valid excuse if he were to be tried for a war crime. That said, like I said before, given the blatant use of WMD, the destruction of the UN, and the fact that the wars in SEED and in SEED Destiny did not end in an actual victory for one side, I don't think the normal war crime applies in the world of CE, and even less on Neo as he ended up on one of the surviving factions.

In fact, did Neo express any displeasure at all from the things he was committing and associating himself with?

I don't know about displeasure, but I don't get the impression that he is too happy about it. But I don't know what the AF did to him. At the very least, he either has no past or has a fake past.

[BrentD15]

In fact, did Neo express any displeasure at all from the things he was committing and associating himself with?

I don't know about displeasure, but I don't get the impression that he is too happy about it. But I don't know what the AF did to him. At the very least, he either has no past or has a fake past.

Then that's another problem I have with this show; it fails to bring certain details to attention.