Nobunaga The Fool Thread

[Zeonista]

Not liking this so far (especially the treatment of Jeanne, which feels very condescending). Depending on my mood next week, I might give it one more episode to impress me.

If you think this story treats Jeanne d'Arc in a condescending fashion, read her biography. That girl knew all about condescending. Now that she's in the more familiar pseudo-masculine role of "Ranmaru", I expect her to become more confident in a couple of episodes. I do expect Ichihime & Ranmaru to become acquainted soon, though.

[Vent Noir]

Not liking this so far (especially the treatment of Jeanne, which feels very condescending). Depending on my mood next week, I might give it one more episode to impress me.

If you think this story treats Jeanne d'Arc in a condescending fashion, read her biography. That girl knew all about condescending. Now that she's in the more familiar pseudo-masculine role of "Ranmaru", I expect her to become more confident in a couple of episodes. I do expect Ichihime & Ranmaru to become acquainted soon, though.

I know it, but we're in the 21st century now, not the 15th.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Not liking this so far (especially the treatment of Jeanne, which feels very condescending). Depending on my mood next week, I might give it one more episode to impress me.

If you think this story treats Jeanne d'Arc in a condescending fashion, read her biography. That girl knew all about condescending. Now that she's in the more familiar pseudo-masculine role of "Ranmaru", I expect her to become more confident in a couple of episodes. I do expect Ichihime & Ranmaru to become acquainted soon, though.

I know it, but we're in the 21st century now, not the 15th.

And it's an anime so... yeah.

Although I'm not sure this plan to pass her off as a man will work for any length of time. What are they going to do? Wrap her chest? I don't think that would work very well.

And was it just me, or did the end of episode 2 seem to imply that Nobunaga and Ichihime are "that way?"

[Vent Noir]

To clarify, my concern is coming from an out-of-universe perspective, rather than an in-universe one. It seems to me that Nobunaga is the Designated Hero and the audience is meant to see his treatment of her as correct.

[Raikoh]

To clarify, my concern is coming from an out-of-universe perspective, rather than an in-universe one. It seems to me that Nobunaga is the Designated Hero and the audience is meant to see his treatment of her as correct.

Considering Nobunaga historically has been vilified, don't be surprised if even a heroic version is taken as an anti-hero. Besides, I'll take an interesting and flawed character over a bland and politically correct one any day. Honestly his treatment of Jeanne looks similar to how he's been treating most people and doesn't have any real connection to her gender. Her trying to stab him is less "woman can't hurt me" and more "rookie can't hurt me." And if you want to talk about the "you're a man" thing, that one was just a spur of the moment plan to keep people from being suspicious (since any political figure traveling around with a buxom foreign woman would raise some eyebrows). I don't know, I didn't get any anti-feminist vibes from the episode (at least no more than most anime) so I'm just grasping at straws as to what was meant to be condescending.

I mean, what are they supposed to do with the character? Completely contradict the setting's medieval roots by making a peasant woman who many believe to be possessed by demons (the only way you could make that kind of person lower in the medieval totem pole was make them a minority - ah, wait, she's now on the Eastern planet) and making her immediately gain political and social power?

[Vent Noir]

Some evidence that she's at least somewhat competent would be a start...

[vindKtiv]

I might try a couple more episodes, but so far I've been pretty disappointed. I was hoping for a show that would somewhat break the status quo in tropes, but so far all I've gotten are a misunderstood young invincible hero, helpless women who flock into the arms of the hero, shady supervillains that have a mysterious agenda who works behind the scenes, and fight scenes that wouldn't be out of place in a mediocre shonen show. I can't help but get the feeling that I've seen all of this before and couldn't care less where the show goes.

Everything is so one dimensional. The technology and the weapons are introduced in a way that seem to be more about flash

Spoiler

like they want me to say "OMG THAT REGALIA IS SOO COOL IT SHOOTS LIGHTING AND STUFF"

than about creating a memorable plot hook. Different characters follow archetypes to the letter to the point that I don't care about the mysterious King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, because I feel like I already now who they are and how their story will end.

I also agree about Jeanne's position in the show. Her main purpose in the show seems to be to serve as a damsel in distress who ends up slowly falling in love with the hero even though she is initially cold towards him. All she does is get in trouble and think about how the main character might actually be the best thing in the whole world. You can't even use the historical argument, because this show is much more about slapping historical names to archetypes to create a wow-factor and less about telling interesting stories inspired by history and fiction.

I wanted this show to succeed so bad, but so far the show has only brought one episode with promise (the first) and two disappointing followups. I'll follow the show for a little longer and hope it gets more interesting as more plot points are introduced.

[Zeonista]

I mean, what are they supposed to do with the character? Completely contradict the setting's medieval roots by making a peasant woman who many believe to be possessed by demons (the only way you could make that kind of person lower in the medieval totem pole was make them a minority - ah, wait, she's now on the Eastern planet) and making her immediately gain political and social power?

According to the Action Girl dogma of Hollywood, yes the story is supposed to do exactly that. Apparently nobody told Kawamori that his story centered on Nobunaga was actually supposed to make him co-star to the uber-heroine Jeanne Kaguya d'Arc, because Girl Power. Somebody alert Meryl Streep right now so she can properly denounce Comrade Kawamori at the Academy Awards!

Fortunately this is mecha anime and no one will be allowed to dictate the subplot of the heroine's externalized conflict between her femininity and utility....unless we are discussing Infinite Stratos! Anyway, #3 got to get into the meat of the story. Since Nobunaga is currently a slacker bosozoku instead of the ambitious and energetic warlord we know from actual history, his home situation is not as firm as it could be. However, dear old Dad is out of the loop and the senior advisers seem to be as much help as those old geezers from Konoha. Fortunately for Nobunaga, Takeda Shingen himself arrived to make everyone wake up and take the situation clearly. Jeanne-Ranmaru was determined to be taken seriously, and got taken seriously enough for Nobunaga to help her rescue the obligatory cute brats and get set up to match Takeda fire with Oda lightning. And all that Regalia cost was the pledge to marry a princess who knew what she wanted.

The production value remained high, further leading me to think this series is a 12-parter with option to do more if Kawamori can't get it done in 12. Which he will not, judging by all the supporting cast and starting point in the rise of Nobunaga's career.

[Kratos]

Some evidence that she's at least somewhat competent would be a start...

This. It'd be perfectly justifiable if the setting and characters treated her one way, but the writers/director treated her another.

According to the Action Girl dogma of Hollywood, yes the story is supposed to do exactly that. Apparently nobody told Kawamori that his story centered on Nobunaga was actually supposed to make him co-star to the uber-heroine Jeanne Kaguya d'Arc, because Girl Power. Somebody alert Meryl Streep right now so she can properly denounce Comrade Kawamori at the Academy Awards!

That's not the only other option, though. Nobody's saying that she needs to upstage the hero of the show "because girl power". She just needs to be more than a one-dimensional damsel-in-distress-in-armour, because good writing. "Strong female characters" can be written poorly, yes, but that doesn't mean that they always are or should be avoided.

[iCards]

Some evidence that she's at least somewhat competent would be a start...

This. It'd be perfectly justifiable if the setting and characters treated her one way, but the writers/director treated her another.

According to the Action Girl dogma of Hollywood, yes the story is supposed to do exactly that. Apparently nobody told Kawamori that his story centered on Nobunaga was actually supposed to make him co-star to the uber-heroine Jeanne Kaguya d'Arc, because Girl Power. Somebody alert Meryl Streep right now so she can properly denounce Comrade Kawamori at the Academy Awards!

That's not the only other option, though. Nobody's saying that she needs to upstage the hero of the show "because girl power". She just needs to be more than a one-dimensional damsel-in-distress-in-armour, because good writing. "Strong female characters" can be written poorly, yes, but that doesn't mean that they always are or should be avoided.

By episode 5 Jenne seems to be doing pretty darn good to me.

In episode 2 it was a "because your a rookie" moment when she drew a dagger on Nobunaga. She was just a regular girl who Di Vinci dressed up to look like a fighter so she could board the ship they used to get to the East. Also, the way she was swinging that sword at Nobunaga in episode 4 shows she hasn't had any kind of formal training what-so-ever.

She got on Nobunaga's butt when he ran through his arrows and didn't bring more with him, which SHE did bring, and she saved some kids from burning in their house. Both instances in episode 3.

In episode 5 she performs an almost suicide run with a mech turned bomb to give Nobunaga an advantage against Takada's War Armor.

Jenne's only major hang-up that I have seen is her fear of Fire, which is likely due to haveing seen the original Jenne d' Arc/Her burned at the stake over and over in her dreams.

To be honest I think people are just giving her a hard time because she looks like Saber from the Fate/ franchise.

[Raikoh]

To be honest I think people are just giving her a hard time because she looks like Saber from the Fate/ franchise.

I'm not quite sure what that means. Since Saber is by far the most popular Type Moon character (I personally don't get it - I like her but she's probably not even close to my top ten favorite TM characters. Probably not even top 25. But I digress), I'm going to assume that you're saying that she's expected to be a major combatant by the mere virtue of being shown in promotional artwork holding a sword and whatnot.

Other than that, yeah, that last post really summed it up well. Viewers tend to overlook the support team. That bombing run was awesome, and if Nobunaga the Fool ever gets into SRW, I am expecting that to be an attack.

The character archetype of "woman who starts out cold to the protagonist and warms to him" has been done to death, admittedly, but with a series like The Fool, I think it works out well. After all, Nobunaga as a character is the kind of guy who you hate before you get to know him and find out he's not half bad.

Though the last couple episodes haven't been as exciting. I'm hoping that the series won't just be a half season, since multiple episodes have been spent with tons of talky bits where little plot advancement has been made. Like how episode four was just "the betrothal ceremony" and that was it. Hopefully now that Mikage- I mean Caesar has made himself known, it seems that the war's going to start getting interesting.

[Zeonista]

The character archetype of "woman who starts out cold to the protagonist and warms to him" has been done to death, admittedly, but with a series like The Fool, I think it works out well. After all, Nobunaga as a character is the kind of guy who you hate before you get to know him and find out he's not half bad.

Himiko seems to have started liking him ahead of time. With Jeanne-Ranmaru, well, let's say that it is a meeting of the different minds that is required. Nobunaga is an admired and respected figure in Japanese history, and he gets proper credit for being the first of the three unifying lords of the Sngoku Jidai. But, saying he is a well-liked historical figure is rather difficult! Nobunaga was a hard fighter and a clever fighter, and he had to be, as succinctly laid out in Episode 1. He successfully demolished several strong opponents, recruited their surviving troops, and unified the center of Japan. He fought to win wars however he could, instead of being a gentleman, and so he's gotten a bad press because of it sometimes. I suppose after this recent episode Nobunaga will put aside his persona of The Fool and become something similar to his actual historical persona. Jeanne will have to keep him on the straight & narrow then, I suppose.

Though the last couple episodes haven't been as exciting. I'm hoping that the series won't just be a half season, since multiple episodes have been spent with tons of talky bits where little plot advancement has been made. Like how episode four was just "the betrothal ceremony" and that was it. Hopefully now that Mikage- I mean Caesar has made himself known, it seems that the war's going to start getting interesting.

Hopefully the last episode has met your expectations for excitement. A lot of things happened, and I expect some uptempo episodes for a while. The story has been fractured historical fairy tale so far, but it has been fun for me to see how all the various people interact with each other. Caesar really has upset things though, and I am unsure what will happen. I was amused at Mitsuhide's reaction to how his perfect scheme got ruined, but I suppose this is where he learns that no plan is Fool-proof.

[iCards]

@Raikoh:

Well Saber is pretty popular even outside Nasuverse. I only got interested in Fate/Stay Night about a year and half ago and loved it(Watched the anime, movie, and did research on the Visual Novel.), but years before all that I had seen pictures mainly of Saber, Rin, and Archer all over the place. So, when I saw Jeanne in her knight outfit walking with that long sword in the opening I immidiatlly thought "Saber with long hair" , it's a character design thing.

Suprisingly I don't have much of a problem with Nobunaga he wasn't too disrespectful when he first met Jeanne and Di Vinci. I started rewatching the first few episodes and I noticed in episode 2 when Jeanne was getting uncomfortable talking about why she came to the East Star, Nobunaga started to change the subject to naming The Fool. He either decided he wasn't getting anywhere, or he saw it was a touchy subject.

@Zeonista

Fool-Proof. LOL

I can't say I know as much about the actual historical events as I do the people involved, but I fell in LOVE with the setting of this anime. Throughing major historical figures, fictional or non-fictional, from different periods into the same period with mecha thrown in just for the fun of it, that just sounds awesome!

To be honest just reading about this anime got me in the mood to re-watch Sengoku Basara.

[Zeonista]

Well, this recent episode really stirred the pot. Things are definitely happening now!

[Mythgarr]

Nobunaga The Fool is boring. Everyone watch Nobunagun now! More actions, more feelings, even though it's a budget anime!

[Destiny_Gundam]

I wanna know why this show is in such a rush. It's set to be 24-26 episodes but it's just one thing happening after another and I don't feel a sense of cohension. Like a bunch of scenes slapped together without much flow. Maybe being adapted from a play is the cause?

I definitely share Jeanne and the others' frustration. Nobunaga does all this crazy stuff and we have absolutely no insight into his motives. As the audience you'd think we'd be privvy to more info. The show wants us to believe in Nobunaga but it doesn't give us much reason to do so.

[Raikoh]

I definitely share Jeanne and the others' frustration. Nobunaga does all this crazy stuff and we have absolutely no insight into his motives. As the audience you'd think we'd be privvy to more info. The show wants us to believe in Nobunaga but it doesn't give us much reason to do so.

I won't try to defend his actions, since he has been acting kind of douchey lately. But rather than just say "he's unlikeable," I prefer to say, "Why is he acting this way? Is it bad writing, or are they trying to make a three-dimensional protagonist?" Let's analyze some of the things we know, specifically in why he would act this way in the previous episode. I'll spoiler it just in case.

Spoiler

- Nobunaga is set on becoming a "Demon King" out of the necessity in war
- Nobody in any position of power wants Nobunaga to take control
- Nobukatsu is most likely to be given power despite being unfit to rule in the current state of war
- Nobunaga clearly has been hurt deeply by his father's death (the waterfall scene)

I'd say that Nobunaga's treatment of his father's ashes has to do with his "Demon King" goal. In order to keep up his appearances as a ruthless and brutal ruler (which I assume he feels is necessary to prevent the warring states, by making them fearful), he can't show any signs of weakness or even compassion. His screaming under that waterfall gave me the impression that he is completely torn apart by having to act that way, and possibly even has taken to punishing himself for his foul behavior.

tl;dr, Nobunaga has turned his mind to steel in order to take the path he feels will be the only way to prevent the war and become a Superhero.

Unless the next couple of episodes give a different explanation. Or if this plan will bite him in the ass (probably will).

[Zeonista]

The show is moving things along a t a good clip, but there is a lot of Nobunaga's life to get through, and even 24 episodes wouldn't cover it with fight scenes, love scenes, and Western scenes tossed into the storyline. I am thinking after this is when Nobunaga decides to get cracking and take his position of authority in order to halt the inevitable follow-up attack by outside daimyo. The anime abruptly forced his hand in history-altering ways, so he'll have no choice but to stop playing the Fool.

[Destiny_Gundam]

@Raikoh: It's not that I find him unlikable, I just find it hard to disagree with the advisors who say that he's unfit to rule.

[iCards]

Well as far as "ruleing" goes. Since Nobunaga's star is based on one of Japan's most chaotic times where people attack first ask questions later, a Lord more willing to go to battle to defend his territory would seem more logical. The way Nobukatsu, the advisor's favorite, was going to handle things Owari would have been lost as a territory. Also, part of Nobunaga's character development is to become a ruler. Narrativly he is called "The Fool" because of his potential, not for his manners and quirks.

Also, look between the lines, it's one of the things I like about the Nobunaga in general. He is a Jeark, but a he is a Jerk with a Heart of Bronze rather than Gold.

Despite how much credit I giave Buddy Complex on its charcterization in episode 4 I have continuasly been impressed, and more engrossed, with what Nobunaga brings to the table.