Mission Accepted- Gundam Wing Rewatch

[Wingnut]

And of course, we get Quatre's 15 minutes of soul crushing endless grief insanity. Gundam Wing- sensitive treatment of mental issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RLrr4M8ssA

[LightningCount]

The whole plot with the Winner family being labelled as dictators...I dunno. I can easily see that the show is trying to make the point that OZ's rulership is bad and is now polluting space as bad as they did back on Earth, but it just comes off as the people of the colonies being idiots who act alarmist just because. If you're doing a story about freedom fighters you need to make the common people worth saving in the eyes of the audience. Right now, I'm not feeling that. Heck, I'm still not fully sure what kind of long term plans the scientists had by altering Dekim's plan and instructing the pilots to go after fairly random targets. I think 00 did this kind of plot better, with the Gundam attacks having a two fold point and the revolution it caused partly being exploited by existing agendas (like AEU welcoming the Federation because alone they were the weakest power).

The first half of the episode also has some logic errors. Giving Trowa the power to blow up Mercurius makes sense but he's not quite consistent on playing his part. Even if they're alone, surely audio logs are monitored soon or later. He even outright brings up info he should have no way per his backstory to know, which Une just dismisses....because.

And of course, we get Quatre's 15 minutes of soul crushing endless grief insanity. Gundam Wing- sensitive treatment of mental issues.

*One of the things that Gundam Wing does is that it points out that "the common people worth saving" are not all going to be universally appealing. A "freedom fighter" isn't a black and white cause; there is a ton of gray area, where the actions being taken are for an idealized vision of what can be for the people, and what you think the people are. But people, by definition, are all different. That Gundam Wing has betrayals of trust from those the freedom fighters are ideally fighting for is more realistic and dynamic. In tumult, the mob mentaality can take over all logic, and the voices you would like to represent or hear are not always the most prominent ones. It's a fundamental question in Wing, about who and what one should be fighting for and believe in, when there are no guarantees.

*I don't think the doctors had any long-term agenda. This wasn't a generations-in-the-making master plan like in 00. The doctors were trying to avoid long-term war by neutralizing the hawkish advances of OZ and Romefeller, before they brought about their revolution. It had the two-fold purpose of neutralizing Dekim's vanguard force of Gundams and the reason for their use--revenge on colonial oppression. If OZ were successfully removed, the Alliance leaders were shown to be moving toward a peaceful agenda under Noventa. (In fact, the Gundams' appearance even highlighted to Noventa that this course was needed). But Treize took that ad-hoc plan and used it to accelerate a revolution that he thought would address all of those issues for the whole of humanity. There is just as much subtly, if not more, than in 00, but it's not as openly spelled out.

*I always assumed that Lady Une knew, in her heart or hearts, that Trowa is not who he says he is. She seems to let that on in certain scenes. Trowa may be covering his tracks digitally or otherwise, but I think she still knows he's a Gundam pilot, or at least was one. Yet, she knows the Gundam pilots are isolated and have no real power in the current political climate, even with powerful mobile suits, and so she would like to exploit Trowa and the others for OZ.

*Quatre's moment may be extreme and insensative, but it's real. When a person has everything stripped away, they can become many things in a very short amount of time. I think this was a shocking and bold plot choice. He was the gentlest, but when you test that nature over and over in a world that denies such an attitude, something bad is bound to happen.

[Amion]

I agree with most of that, Count. Especially about Quatre. There's a lot of psychology here, I think. I'm no expert, but I would say he's suffering from something similar to what soldiers go through in wartime. Namely a mix of war fever and arguably a lot of traumatic stress. This is just his snapping point where he's ready and willing to go onto a killing spree and slaughter as many of the enemy as possible. Enter the Zero System and we have Colony Buster Quatre.

I actually appreciate how Wing's civillians are portrayed. This gets about as political as it can but from what I've seen, the fickle public is just htat. They're fickle. One day thye may be praising something, the next trying to have it torn down. It also shows how much the Gundam Pilots believe in what they're doing, they are willing and ready to sacrifice everything even if they are ultimately demonized. That's something 00 failed to show as deeply.

On the flip-side, 00's plot makes sense. The Scientists' scheme feels like utter nonsense to me.

So take your pick, plot or character development? That's what I'm offered when I think of this scenario.

[Soma Taozi]

So I have mixed feelings about Gundam Wing, it was the show my brothers always watched back in the day and it was the first time I heard the name Gundam (mostly because the pilots were screaming it every other word ).

When I got into the fandom, it was Seed/Destiny that took me by the hand and led me in (most girls I think attribute these series for their introduction to Gundam and mecha) which is why I am always slightly biased for those two series...despite their flaws.

That being said, about 4 years ago I watched Wing all the way through from start to finish...and I absolutely hated it. For many, many, MANY reasons. But that was a long time ago...and I think I have grown up and matured since my highschool days. So since there seems to be a lot of traffic regarding Wing recently...I am going to give it a rewatch myself and I will be going VERY slow.

Also after today, I will be finished rewatching the GSD remaster...which means that in the next week or two I will start my rewatch.

Also I am going to watch the series in sub...the English dub was, to me, so bad that it certainly didn't help the series during my first watch. But I am kind of excited and I will let you gentlemen know what I think.

[LightningCount]

So since there seems to be a lot of traffic regarding Wing recently...I am going to give it a rewatch myself and I will be going VERY slow.

While you're doing this, you might want to read the manga Episode Zero, which is based on scripts that were supposed to be used sometime after episode 27 according to a creator interview. (Though, I believe as the series was constructed, the manga's scripts probably fit best between 26 and 27 now). If you don't read it there, be sure to read it after Endless Waltz. Never read it before the series. A few scenes make it into Endless Waltz, but the meat of it, which gets deep into the characters' backgrounds/motivations, was lost to production schedule issues. In a sense, it's kind of like those lost 10 episodes of Gundam X; except this time, we have the gist of what they were in a pretty detailed manga. Oh, and if you read the manga in the middle of the series as intended, avoid the supplementary creator commentary materials often included with it, as it spoils later story elements.

[HellCat]

And so I hit the half way point.

Duo's encounter with Hilde is interesting. It's nice to put a face on the idea the young people of the colonies are being swept into OZ's hype but once again...I dunno. To the show's credit I think Dermail sums it up well when he explains the situation as being a case of giving the colony's freedom and a voice and then taking up arms will be the next logical step once they've each declared themselves to be 'a nation'. Though Duo of course points out the colonies aren't at war, so who are they taking up arms against? Fair do, this might be one of the more consistent bits of writing in the show.

Of course I'll balance that out by mentioning Quatre's inconsistent crazed grief. Now, I know eventually they smooth this over somewhat by saying the Zero System is partly to blame. But Quatre, the good two shoes smiley faced Gundam pilot, is suddenly dressing all in black and randomly destroying colonies. He can't even keep he shtick consistent. Does he want to kill everyone including the other pilots? Does he want them to join his crusade? Hey, not like it matters anyway because all it takes is Trowa going boom for Quatre to decide this isn't what he wants after all.
This for me is really where Wing stumbles. It's such a stunted and muted show that a moment like this that hinges on emotion doesn't work.

In contrast, I like the Wing Zero itself and how it comes into the story. Wing has been kicked around alot by this point and it's nice that Wing Zero doesn't just appear because J decided to make Heero an upgrade. The Zero System itself is a cool concept and I like that this is the next stage of the family tree we saw with the Tallgeese, an overpower response to that which would go on to be the source of the five Gundams thus far. 00 would kinda revisit this theme with the likes of 0 Gundam and the unseen second-gen units, but I think Wing might have done it better. I really like it when Gundam stories take time to explain why mecha evolved into that particular form.

Speaking of, nice debut for Deathscythe Hell and Altron. REALLY made me wanna buy those retro 1/100s I opted out on at the time.

Une....I throw my hands up. From ruthless bitch who would use any dirty trick to remove the Gundams to now leading a crusade to release them, partly due to some words from Treize. I've been dragging this rewatch out and even then it still feels too soon for the story to be taking this turn.

[HellCat]

Maybe it's because I haven't seen them as much but the stuff after Heero and Quatre return to Earth feels better for the most part. Apparently this is where script writing changed hands a bit, so maybe whoever was doing it at this point sits better with me?

I really like the idea of Wing Zero changing hands. I like linking MS to a specific pilot but at the same time I don't want them bolted to one when it might make little sense, such as AGE (if you disagree with how Kio fights, how about you stop letting him go out in FX?). Wing is never afraid to shake things up in this regard and it makes Wing Zero a really interesting wildcard as various pilots try and fail to master it. I even like Trant. He might be cut from the mustache twirling cloth of most villains in this show but his little arc of trying to experiment with the Zero System is pretty interesting.

I'm mixed on Relena. It's not like there haven't been influential, powerful young leaders in human history and the script does make her more humble than certain overbearing, 'I have all the answers' heroines that would follow but I'm not sure other countries would put so much faith in her philosophy. I know this is all building to the idea of 'to eliminate war, you have to make humanity sick of it' which gets pushed further but...eh.

Hooray for random Peacemillion. Did I doze off and miss/forget a scene or did this always just suddenly appear in the story?

Not a fan of Catherine's attitude to Trowa. It's better he be a confused amnesiac then remember things that were his own choices?...Doesn't sit well with me. I like that the circus at least hasn't forgotten he was a Gundam pilot and that they risk alot if OZ comes to associate him with them.

Dorothy is often called a Katejina clone and while it's partly true I also think it's unfair. I think half the reason this made me expect more from Katejina is that Dorothy actually does stuff. Sure she's just half-mock fawning over Relena but she stands out more than her prototype did.

[monster]

i'm mixed on Relena. It's not like there haven't been influential, powerful young leaders in human history and the script does make her more humble than certain overbearing, 'I have all the answers' heroines that would follow but I'm not sure other countries would put so much faith in her philosophy. I know this is all building to the idea of 'to eliminate war, you have to make humanity sick of it' which gets pushed further but...eh.

Which heroines have all the answers? I think if you have a strong conviction in something, then you can follow through with it, and that's the same for Relena. That doesn't mean someone has all the answers, but acting indecisive doesn't really get one anywhere. I don't think any of the heroines who followed after Relena thought they have all the answers, but some (if not all) of them do have strong convictions in some things.

[LightningCount]

Hooray for random Peacemillion. Did I doze off and miss/forget a scene or did this always just suddenly appear in the story?

It's in the Episode Zero manga (based on dropped scripts) seemingly related to the Sweeper Group, so this is likely a scene that was cut due to production scheduling like the characters' pasts. Basically, from the few panels of intro we get, it looks like it was an experimental ship that Professor G and Howard were involved in developing that was supposed to be for space exploration. For whatever reason, the project was scrapped in A.C. 192--it seems to hint that Earth/the colonies' political climates were no longer conducive to the idea?--and so it was hidden on the moon with a sense of regret. It was said to have the ability to go beyond the solar system, and so it's perhaps a precursor to the Mars projects that Endless Waltz's ending mentions (and maybe Quatre's sun-mission ship in Endless Waltz).

[HellCat]

Oh I know about the Episode Zero stuff. But in show it just comes out of nowhere, suddenly Zechs has this massive ship. An awkward thing to have happen.

[AmuroNT1]

I think you can attribute part of Relena's in-world popularity to the general war weariness people around the world have been feeling. Under Romefeller it's gotten even worse, and the introduction of Mobile Dolls is just a harbinger of what's to come. She seems to be the first person with the cajones to stand up to them, which emboldened others who wanted to but were afraid.

[HellCat]

Question- how interested would people be to read a look at Wing from someone who doesn't hate it but isn't as in love with it as most Western fans, trying to get their head around why most other people enjoy it? Not the bitty piece by piece comments of this thread but a consistent analysis of the series as a whole.

[Amion]

Question- how interested would people be to read a look at Wing from someone who doesn't hate it but isn't as in love with it as most Western fans, trying to get their head around why most other people enjoy it? Not the bitty piece by piece comments of this thread but a consistent analysis of the series as a whole.

I know I'd be. But I'm one of those who shares that opinion.

[monster]

I think a lot of people liked Wing simply for the mobile suits and the actions. I mean, sure, there are people who liked the story as well, but probably the action is what hooked people in. There's just something about the Gundams in Wing destroying their enemies that looked great. Personally, I never had that same feeling when the CB Gundams did similar things in 00.

[HellCat]

Amion- That's one vote, then

monster- I find the opposite mainly for how inconsistent Wing is with that. OZ MS explode like nobody's business but then stick a named character in one and it just starts pinging countless shots off it, like Une in a Taurus or Heero in a Leo. One of my favourite parts of Endless Waltz is seeing the Leos in the prologue use better tactics and (if I recall correctly), one even getting an arm blown off and continuing to fight. I think 00 was actually better on this factor because it gave us a reason to invest in the action, not just 'IT'S A GUNDAM! WET YOURSELF AND FORGET YOUR TRAINING!'. One of my favourite fights in season one is Exia vs the Tierens and Anfs because it directly ties into Setsuna's anger and fear over being hunted down by Anfs in the prologue. Along the same lines I love the new animation in the SE version of Moralia, like the pair of Hellions who charge forward at Exia and get shot down midstride.

It feels bad for me to attack a nearly 20 year old show but Wing's animation hasn't dated too well in my eyes. I appreciate they were trying to be ambitious but the budget just isn't there in my opinion.

[monster]

Sure, people have different tastes.

For me, that kind of inconsistency in Wing isn't all that important, and especially not back then when I first saw it that many years ago. As far as being invested in the action, while the action in 00 is good, I find myself caring more to see if Patrick survived than on CB's struggle or that of any of the other pilots. In fact, I think I was rooting for Patrick from the very first episode, or close to it.

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy 00, because I do. I just used it for comparison's sake.

[LightningCount]

Question- how interested would people be to read a look at Wing from someone who doesn't hate it but isn't as in love with it as most Western fans, trying to get their head around why most other people enjoy it? Not the bitty piece by piece comments of this thread but a consistent analysis of the series as a whole.

You're welcome to do so. But let me clarify, so that you understand, some people who hold Wing in high regard, like myself--we're aware of a number of its flaws. We're not saying it's perfect or flawless, though a few of those "flaws" are misinterpreted or overstated in terms of Gundam as a whole. And while sometimes those flaws elicit a cringe or two, its strengths trump its flaws by such a significant margin, that we can't help but enjoy it and give it a lot of credit. (On the note of animation, I also found the choreography of Wing, through its creative use of angles and scale, superior to 00 on the whole like Monster, despite 00 having more frames and such. If you look at how Wing follows the angles of, say, the original Deathscythe Hell's weapon as it swings and smashes into the face of a Leo on close-up; there's a special use of camera work going on. They're paying a lot of attention to framing scenes, which makes the animation better than it otherwise would be.

Anyway, it comes down to tastes in the end. I don't dislike 00, and am really fond of parts of it, but it depends on tastes. It's like how some people like pineapples on their pizza, because it adds a sweetness to the zesty sauce.

[HellCat]

I don't know if I agree. They were certainly pushing their animation to the limit and trying to get more out of the budget than V or G did, but I generally find Wing visually a blur bar iconic moments like Wing shielding Relena in 'Party Night' or the new Shenlong and Deathscythe escaping the Lunar Base.

For me, collectively it just feels like Wing is trying really hard to feel special and not succeeding. Especially when it comes to characters and dialogue. In its own way it's living up to MSG by attempting to be challenging for its age group (15 year olds?) but I don't think it holds up. It's the same with the action which feels silly now. Stuff like Heero and Quatre crashing a plane, firing away as it skids and then kicking all the crew off.....It's all a bit too Michael Bay for my taste.

[LightningCount]

I don't know if I agree. They were certainly pushing their animation to the limit and trying to get more out of the budget than V or G did, but I generally find Wing visually a blur bar iconic moments like Wing shielding Relena in 'Party Night' or the new Shenlong and Deathscythe escaping the Lunar Base.

For me, collectively it just feels like Wing is trying really hard to feel special and not succeeding. Especially when it comes to characters and dialogue. In its own way it's living up to MSG by attempting to be challenging for its age group (15 year olds?) but I don't think it holds up. It's the same with the action which feels silly now. Stuff like Heero and Quatre crashing a plane, firing away as it skids and then kicking all the crew off.....It's all a bit too Michael Bay for my taste.

The over-the-top stuff is part of the appeal for those who like that sort of thing. It's not quite Michael Bay because, done in the context of animation and a story that is at least attempting to push boundaries of thinking, it comes off as a fun contrast. It's not just dumb action for the sake of dumb action; it accentuates other elements and creates a sense of dynamic variety beyond one's typical mecha show. It's sugar for the medicine, if you will. It is a specific taste, though, I'll grant you that. But to me, that's an expected appeal of anime. Even in 0080, there's no uber-realistic reason for that Hygogg to slide on its side as such a giant machine and then grab the enemy and use it as a shield. That's just style points. Or Amuro doing his thing with that plane in Zeta. That's style points, too. It's anime, so it's an exaggerated form of reality, even when it's tackling elements of reality. That's just a given to me. I mean, Setsuna diving underwater and getting to his hidden MS without drowning or getting his machine's insides all wet, that's just style points, too.

Wing has more moments of the choreography than you're giving it credit for (and let's not forget it was on a much different schedule than current anime in terms of time to produce it and the quantity expected). I don't want to go into every single one, but just watch the battles of Episode 12 for an example. (There are examples beyond the MS in episodes, too, if you look at how certain scenes are framed in terms of lighting and fog and such. G Gundam's really good at this, too. Just watch Episode 5 of G).

I'm not expecting to convince you of anything, and I feel sort of drained from all the recent analysis of Wing. For me at this point, there's only so much you want to over-analyze something. So, I'm probably going to take a break from discussions for a while.

In the end, we all like different elements, and we all put some elements over others, etc. I like what Wing did overall a great deal, despite some of its eccentricities, and, in some cases, because of those eccentricities. That doesn't mean that 08th MS Team, 0080, G, and X don't hold very high positions, or that I didn't enjoy parts of other series; it just means, for me, Wing's cast, action, story, MS, and milieu of reflection on humanity and its structures was the best/most complete mix for me, even in spite of its flaws. But again, is anything flawless? It all depends on how much certain quirks or flaws affect your viewing and expectations.

In parting, just to give you the flip side of the coin for Gundam 00 S2. While I'll likely give it another shot at some point, these were "flaws" that ended up hurting my opinion of 00 a great deal after Season 1. To name a few off the top of my head-->

Spoiler

The afterthought handling of Wang Liu Mei; the sidelining of Al and Marie; the overabundance of Saji and Louise when their overwrought plot has little bearing; the piecemeal and inconsequential involvement of Graham as the borderline goofy Mr. Bushido; the endless line of one-note combat-type Innovades that distracted and did little to develop the idea of Innovades being the type of secret observers seen later in the Movie (and supposedly before hand, off-screen); the Observers themselves being killed off-screen after getting an episode of their own in Season 1; the return of Al-Saachez popping in and out, before finally being offed by Lockon's brother, who originally said he didn't care about revenge; the haplessness of Katheron and the halfhearted subplot of Lockon's brother being a spy; Lockon's time-skip-developed deep love relationship with Anew; the attention given to the unlikable and melodramatic Andre; the quick introduction and dissolution of subplots like Suille before they can add any depth to proceedings; the expanding magical properties of GN particles, which started to be a cure-all for the plot and seemed like they (and a children's song) contributed more to the ending's "peace" than the more logical struggles toward that peace earlier on...

But that's enough, and I probably shouldn't have even gone there, because what good does saying that do? If someone liked those elements or could overlook them, then that's their taste, and that's cool. There were parts/concepts I liked, but I just thought that Season 2 really only worked overall as a rushed transition to the Movie, and that's a feeling that disappointed me. I haven't figured out how to otherwise reconcile Season 1 and Season 2 of 00, which makes me confused of where to put it in my thoughts of Gundam. There were also just some other choices that I wasn't crazy about on an aesthetic level. The Gundam and enemy MS designs in Season 2 were not as appealing to me overall as in Season 1, and the overabundance of a new blur effect in battles made things less visually appealing. And, in the end, while 00 had a lot of real-world political and philosophical seeds--especially in Season 1--I just don't see in my view that those seeds were consistently developed or expounded upon in-series as much as they were in Wing, even if Wing was, as you say, trying to get the 15-year-old crowd at heart.

But I'm really just trying to say in the end that people will react to different things in different ways, and it all depends on how those things, perceived and real, positive and negative, add up.

[Amion]

I admit that the choreography in Wing is very well done. The Gundams all have some iconic moments to slash those poor OZ machines to scrap. But that's the problem for me, there are just too many of those because there are too many OZ units.

Sorry for ruining your spirit, Count. I know how it feels. And I think most people enjoy Wing more than their complaints let on. They just like to talk about flaws because they spark more reactions. (Like both of ours, for instance).

Well, philosophy time over. Back to watching Stardust Crusaders.