The Official Gundam ZZ Discussion Thread Mk I

[Zeonista]

OK, let's try this for discussion: Glemy's Rebellion

Just going on what we see in the show (so no 'Glemy is the illegitimate son of Ghiren' or Gundam Sentinel stuff), why does anyone in Neo Zeon feel the need to follow this guy over Haman? He calls Haman incompetent but she was able to bully the Federation with impunity and was able to get her to give them Side 3. I'm sure she also expected them to try and betray her at some point as well.

All in all, it just makes it seem like a very ill-conceived power grab on Glemy's part but doesn't really explain why other Neo Zeon soldiers would follow him. Besides the fact that they all seem a bit stupid-crazy.

The split would be part of the confusion of expectations over the state of Side 3 and the Inner Sphere. Despite her bold posturing, Haman might well realize what Char had been trying to tell her. The Zabi name no longer inspired devotion, and the Republic would not openly support someone who could not guarantee a victory. AEUG had stepped in to pick up the people who might otherwise have volunteered to fill the Neo-Zeon ranks. But Glemy wanted victory in the short term, not long term. He had the Plu force, that should have been enough firepower, right? And the cautious AEUG and EFSF would not interfere until he had a victory and was the man in charge, right?

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

The split would be part of the confusion of expectations over the state of Side 3 and the Inner Sphere. Despite her bold posturing, Haman might well realize what Char had been trying to tell her. The Zabi name no longer inspired devotion, and the Republic would not openly support someone who could not guarantee a victory. AEUG had stepped in to pick up the people who might otherwise have volunteered to fill the Neo-Zeon ranks. But Glemy wanted victory in the short term, not long term. He had the Plu force, that should have been enough firepower, right? And the cautious AEUG and EFSF would not interfere until he had a victory and was the man in charge, right?

I could go with that for just the technical terms but it still doesn't really get at why anyone would follow Glemy personally. Who exactly is he, in the shows terms, that anyone would believe in him over Haman?

Also, I've recently watched the Zeta Gundam movies and it really got me to thinking about what would ZZ have been about if this is the way things originally were. Let's take stock of the situation--

1. The AEUG seems to be in a much better position than they originally were.
2. Kamille hasn't been mind-wiped and is still available to fight in his Zeta.
3. Haman inexplicably retreats from the Earthsphere.
4. She sends Mineva down to Earth to some private school. Why?
5. I can't imagine the Earth Federation would leave a weapon like Gryps 2 in the hands of an independent group, so there's that to consider.
6. WWCD or What Would Char Do?

[Zeonista]

I could go with that for just the technical terms but it still doesn't really get at why anyone would follow Glemy personally. Who exactly is he, in the shows terms, that anyone would believe in him over Haman?

I take it you are asking why anyone would follow Glemy based on his personality, actual one or public persona? Well, it's the UC, personal appeal is not always a criterion for leadership. If one wishes Gundam faction leaders who are pleasing personalities first & foremost, one must go to Gundam SEED or Gundam Age.

Also, I've recently watched the Zeta Gundam movies and it really got me to thinking about what would ZZ have been about if this is the way things originally were.

Short answer is, "not as long or confusing".

Let's take stock of the situation--
1. The AEUG seems to be in a much better position than they originally were.

That's not saying much, but AEUG might get its chance to recover without Neo-Zeon running them ragged. The events of Gundam Sentinel could have been less bloody as well.

2. Kamille hasn't been mind-wiped and is still available to fight in his Zeta.

I honestly don't know if Camille would have stayed in AEUG, or left to get on with his life. He'd had his revenge on the TItans, Fa was there with him, might as well get a job with AE and have a good time.

3. Haman inexplicably retreats from the Earthsphere.
4. She sends Mineva down to Earth to some private school. Why?

At the end of the Zeta movies Haman was more in favor of diplomacy that didn't involve MS & warships. The Titans were tough, but AEUG had taken it on the chin, some politicking for pragmatic gains might have paid off. And if Minerva went to some anime girls' school on Earth, she would get a personal experience with Earthnoids that wouldn't end with her eloping with a Gundam pilot or ordering the destruction of the Federation.

5. I can't imagine the Earth Federation would leave a weapon like Gryps 2 in the hands of an independent group, so there's that to consider.

Given the usual wisdom of the EUG regarding super-weapons, I can definitely imagine it! Since AEUG was the de facto controller of it, that is who would continue to own it, until possibly the AEUG could become Lond Bell and formally transfer custody.

6. WWCD or What Would Char Do?

Hide somewhere and wait until the yandere-in-chief goes away? Still, if Neo-Zeon & AEUG don't immediately go head-to-head, he might be able to come back and try to keep on helping Spacenoids. For my money, if AEUG knew where Char was hiding, they could sell him to Haman in return for some good concessions.

[Kratos]

I don't really know about the others, as I'm kind of woefully unfamiliar with ZZ and the Zeta movies, but...

6. WWCD or What Would Char Do?

There's a rather popular opinion that the events at the end of Zeta are, ultimately, what made Char jaded enough to do what he does in CCA, and from what I've heard, the Zeta movies end on a much more upbeat note. Working with the assumption that Char retains his faith in humanity, it seems likely that he would fill whatever void Haman left, start leading the Zeon People, and possibly even attempt to broker a peace between Neo Zeon and the AEUG/Federation. With the more optimistic Char in charge of things, it seems possible that the likely enemy faction of later series' would be rogue elements of either Zeon or the Federation, maybe attempting to start up conflict between the two (like in Destiny, only hopefully executed better).

[Amion]

I don't really know about the others, as I'm kind of woefully unfamiliar with ZZ and the Zeta movies, but...

6. WWCD or What Would Char Do?

There's a rather popular opinion that the events at the end of Zeta are, ultimately, what made Char jaded enough to do what he does in CCA, and from what I've heard, the Zeta movies end on a much more upbeat note. Working with the assumption that Char retains his faith in humanity, it seems likely that he would fill whatever void Haman left, start leading the Zeon People, and possibly even attempt to broker a peace between Neo Zeon and the AEUG/Federation. With the more optimistic Char in charge of things, it seems possible that the likely enemy faction of later series' would be rogue elements of either Zeon or the Federation, maybe attempting to start up conflict between the two (like in Destiny, only hopefully executed better).

I agree with this mostly, since Kamille surviving unscathed would surely not hurt. He would also be actively believing in his mentor's return, and I think Char would have probably confronted him about his own ideals considering he does this with Kamille throughout Zeta. Kamille would have stayed on, ultimately become Judou's mentor (and possibly gotten braindead as a result, was that what Tomino was going for? ). Char at the very least would have stayed on I think, or even added his Zeon contacts who meet him in his apartment at Granada.

Regardless I don't think the AEUG would fold like they did, which is a big point. Amuro may have joined up, Char would have probably left the AEUG, but still been active rather than silent. Gryps II would have been used on Axis instead of that....whatever it is they stuck on the Argama. Given how Axis escaped doom at the hands of the space laser once, I would imagine it would have survived that attempt same as in the anime with the smaller laser aboard the Argama.

As I write, I can't help but feel this all starts to sound very, very much like the translated events that Tomino had planned pre-CCA confirmation. Perhaps in his mind he sees the New Translation as a means of leading into that original scenario with the original tragedy moving onto ZZ.

It would be funny to see Kamille shaking Judua and warning him not to let Haman seduce him....>_> With Char there as a former boyfriend to agree.O_0;

[BrentD15]

I don't really know about the others, as I'm kind of woefully unfamiliar with ZZ and the Zeta movies, but...

6. WWCD or What Would Char Do?

There's a rather popular opinion that the events at the end of Zeta are, ultimately, what made Char jaded enough to do what he does in CCA, and from what I've heard, the Zeta movies end on a much more upbeat note. Working with the assumption that Char retains his faith in humanity, it seems likely that he would fill whatever void Haman left, start leading the Zeon People, and possibly even attempt to broker a peace between Neo Zeon and the AEUG/Federation. With the more optimistic Char in charge of things, it seems possible that the likely enemy faction of later series' would be rogue elements of either Zeon or the Federation, maybe attempting to start up conflict between the two (like in Destiny, only hopefully executed better).

I agree with this mostly, since Kamille surviving unscathed would surely not hurt. He would also be actively believing in his mentor's return, and I think Char would have probably confronted him about his own ideals considering he does this with Kamille throughout Zeta. Kamille would have stayed on, ultimately become Judou's mentor (and possibly gotten braindead as a result, was that what Tomino was going for? ). Char at the very least would have stayed on I think, or even added his Zeon contacts who meet him in his apartment at Granada.

Regardless I don't think the AEUG would fold like they did, which is a big point. Amuro may have joined up, Char would have probably left the AEUG, but still been active rather than silent. Gryps II would have been used on Axis instead of that....whatever it is they stuck on the Argama. Given how Axis escaped doom at the hands of the space laser once, I would imagine it would have survived that attempt same as in the anime with the smaller laser aboard the Argama.

As I write, I can't help but feel this all starts to sound very, very much like the translated events that Tomino had planned pre-CCA confirmation. Perhaps in his mind he sees the New Translation as a means of leading into that original scenario with the original tragedy moving onto ZZ.

It would be funny to see Kamille shaking Judua and warning him not to let Haman seduce him....>_> With Char there as a former boyfriend to agree.O_0;

I can see it now.
Quattro: "Judau, have you ever heard of the saying 'Never stick it in crazy'?"

[REMecha00Q]

Question, this confused me in ep.32. August brought up the Mindra multiple times. Was he inferring that Glemy was controlling it too or that he was just not commanding it anymore?

[Furious Rodimus]

I'm late to the ZZ party. Beecha and Mondo are such terrible friends. Where was their BrightSlap (TM)?

I really like the show now that it got to Dakar. It feels like the stakes have risen significantly. I just finished off the episode where Leina's hut got Dom'ed. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series, and am glad Daisuki is streaming it.

[Zeonista]

After re-reading my earlier post, I decided to give some more thought to this post.

I could go with that for just the technical terms but it still doesn't really get at why anyone would follow Glemy personally. Who exactly is he, in the shows terms, that anyone would believe in him over Haman?

You know, that was a good question... Gremy was the illegitimate son of Gihren Zabi, so he could have a claim to fame as someone who had a connection to the Principality, but was distant from it enough to not get all the negative historical baggage. He was a capable tactical leader, or at least the story would like us to believe so despite evidence to the contrary. He also was able to step forward at a crucial juncture for the Neo-Zeon and announce himself as an alternative choice compared to Haman-sama. Given that Haman had made some bad choices and had missed her chance to rally Side 3 & KO the Federation, some disgruntled subordinates now realized they did have another choice. Since radical organizations tend to vote with bullets instead of ballots, Gremy attracted enough forces to make a coup seem possible.

1. The AEUG seems to be in a much better position than they originally were.

The AEUG would be in a much better position if Axis backed off and didn't try to wrest control of the Earth Sphere from them. Despite the beating from the final battle, AEUG had survived and triumphed, and the Titans had not. This would leave AEUG's backers in a more secure position; they would be able to sway the political discourse in Dakar to their ends. The immediate scare of a Neo-Zeon cleanup operation made the EUG less willing to compromise, and the same old crowd stayed in place & stalled for time until Haman lost her political momentum & had to return to space.

The AEUG also having survived in a position of strength would help in negotiations with Axis, since AEUG, although not pro-Zeon by any means, had enjoyed some Zeon support, and could honestly claim they had the Spacenoids' safety & prosperity in mind. A treaty arranged by AEUG's leading council & the Neo-Zeon warlords would be fair enough on both sides to allow some mutual satisfaction. Not to say everything would be sunshine & rainbows from now on, but a peace treaty that let Neo-Zeon have their own independence and a seat at the economic table of the Earth Sphere would relax tensions a great deal. It would also give the diehard remnants a face-saving way to call it quits and be repatriated to the Republic or Axis, ending the brushfire conflicts that could always be stoked into an inferno.

3. Haman inexplicably retreats from the Earthsphere.

As they say in international diplomacy, you have to give a little to get a little if you don't win big. Haman-sama's retreat from the immediate Earth Sphere, even if it's only as far as Side 3, is a concession in that it would signal a willingness to avoid future fighting with AEUG & the EFSF. It would let the cooler heads prevail and let serious negotiations begin as per #1 above. It would also show some real personal growth by Haman herself, since she would have actually put the survival of Zeon beyond her own ambitions and desires.

6. WWCD or What Would Char Do?

If Axis and AEUG had agreed to give each other space and time, and then had sat down to work things out, the entire situation would have changed Char's development a lot. He would have been able to come out of hiding, declare his existence, and then serve as a mediator in the negotiations. it would be to his definite advantage to take part, as he could become the indispensable man. As both Char Aznable and Quattro Bagina, he had credibility and supporters in both camps, so he could put a personal stamp of affirmation on treaty negotiations just by being there. As Cassoval Rem Daikun, he could act as a unifier to all the Zeon factions, and allow the gentler Contolist philosophy emerge again to mellow out the strident & militant Zeonist ideology promulgated by the Zabis. And as "Char-sama" he could give a more patient & planning Haman support to keep her in charge at Axis long enough for a treaty to take effect and be enforced. Then they could make Newtype babies together & have the Plus babysit them! It goes without saying that the haunted, heart-broken and bitter man of CCA would never come to exist.

[Amion]

After re-reading my earlier post, I decided to give some more thought to this post.

I could go with that for just the technical terms but it still doesn't really get at why anyone would follow Glemy personally. Who exactly is he, in the shows terms, that anyone would believe in him over Haman?

You know, that was a good question... Gremy was the illegitimate son of Gihren Zabi, so he could have a claim to fame as someone who had a connection to the Principality, but was distant from it enough to not get all the negative historical baggage. He was a capable tactical leader, or at least the story would like us to believe so despite evidence to the contrary. He also was able to step forward at a crucial juncture for the Neo-Zeon and announce himself as an alternative choice compared to Haman-sama. Given that Haman had made some bad choices and had missed her chance to rally Side 3 & KO the Federation, some disgruntled subordinates now realized they did have another choice. Since radical organizations tend to vote with bullets instead of ballots, Gremy attracted enough forces to make a coup seem possible.

1. The AEUG seems to be in a much better position than they originally were.

The AEUG would be in a much better position if Axis backed off and didn't try to wrest control of the Earth Sphere from them. Despite the beating from the final battle, AEUG had survived and triumphed, and the Titans had not. This would leave AEUG's backers in a more secure position; they would be able to sway the political discourse in Dakar to their ends. The immediate scare of a Neo-Zeon cleanup operation made the EUG less willing to compromise, and the same old crowd stayed in place & stalled for time until Haman lost her political momentum & had to return to space.

The AEUG also having survived in a position of strength would help in negotiations with Axis, since AEUG, although not pro-Zeon by any means, had enjoyed some Zeon support, and could honestly claim they had the Spacenoids' safety & prosperity in mind. A treaty arranged by AEUG's leading council & the Neo-Zeon warlords would be fair enough on both sides to allow some mutual satisfaction. Not to say everything would be sunshine & rainbows from now on, but a peace treaty that let Neo-Zeon have their own independence and a seat at the economic table of the Earth Sphere would relax tensions a great deal. It would also give the diehard remnants a face-saving way to call it quits and be repatriated to the Republic or Axis, ending the brushfire conflicts that could always be stoked into an inferno.

3. Haman inexplicably retreats from the Earthsphere.

As they say in international diplomacy, you have to give a little to get a little if you don't win big. Haman-sama's retreat from the immediate Earth Sphere, even if it's only as far as Side 3, is a concession in that it would signal a willingness to avoid future fighting with AEUG & the EFSF. It would let the cooler heads prevail and let serious negotiations begin as per #1 above. It would also show some real personal growth by Haman herself, since she would have actually put the survival of Zeon beyond her own ambitions and desires.

6. WWCD or What Would Char Do?

If Axis and AEUG had agreed to give each other space and time, and then had sat down to work things out, the entire situation would have changed Char's development a lot. He would have been able to come out of hiding, declare his existence, and then serve as a mediator in the negotiations. it would be to his definite advantage to take part, as he could become the indispensable man. As both Char Aznable and Quattro Bagina, he had credibility and supporters in both camps, so he could put a personal stamp of affirmation on treaty negotiations just by being there. As Cassoval Rem Daikun, he could act as a unifier to all the Zeon factions, and allow the gentler Contolist philosophy emerge again to mellow out the strident & militant Zeonist ideology promulgated by the Zabis. And as "Char-sama" he could give a more patient & planning Haman support to keep her in charge at Axis long enough for a treaty to take effect and be enforced. Then they could make Newtype babies together & have the Plus babysit them! It goes without saying that the haunted, heart-broken and bitter man of CCA would never come to exist.

Not to mention that nasty urge to hurl celestial bodies at poor, ravaged Earth.

[monster]

GundamInfo has made Zeta and ZZ episodes available for streaming for the month of March, although the ZZ episodes don't seem to have subs while the Zeta episodes have English subs.

[HellCat]

I hope it gets fixed soon, but right now it's just more proof of how half arsed Gundam.info's efforts towards Western fans are.

[Calubin_175]

Sadly it isn't the Blu ray HD remaster. Are they trying to sell the ZZ clones in Full Boost?

[AmuroNT1]

So I finally started in on this thing. I'm up to #38 at the moment and I'm actually enjoying it (including the silliness), but there are a few things that bugged me.

1) I know the Gundam Team aren't professional soldiers, but the way they do whatever the eff they want and seemingly never get punished kinda grates on me. Other than that one time Judau is in the brig for like a day or two. I mean, Beecha and Mondo repeatedly tried to sell the Argama out, openly defected to Axis, and then came back when they decided Axis sucked, and other than Judau being mad at them for a bit they never got punished.

2) Do we ever get an explanation for why Glemy was so obsessed with making Leina into a debutante? It seems more than a little creepy that he just takes this random girl kidnapped from the colonies and trains her in etiquette, ballet, and the piano just to show her off at a party.

3) It's been joked about before, but really, are Mashmyre's flashbacks to Haman for real, or is he just prettying up his memories?

4) About Chara, is there an explanation for her wild personality shifts (coquettish to rowdy to outright horny when piloting)? I kind of wonder if she wasn't already undergoing the Cyber-Newtype process even in her first few appearances.

5) The Gundam Team's individual quirks kind of wear on me to an extent. Worst, as I said, is Beecha and Mondo's incredible selfishness at the start, but everyone has their problems. Iino's dedication to those two, who put his life and the lives of the entire Argama at risk for petty reasons, is pretty frustrating, especially coming from someone who's normally the most level-headed of the group. Likewise Roux's impatience with the rest of the group, which seems to stem from her not realizing or caring that they're civilians rather than soldiers. Elle...normally she's pretty reasonable, but I'd swear they decided that she had to get into petty catfights with Roux for no reason other than to make her seem less perfect. I'd cite her gripes with Puru/Ple, but for the most part she's justified (ie wasting the group's water while they're in the desert).

Also, for all the Moon Moon arc's faults, I laughed out loud at the part where they're pretending to destroy the ZZ and the crew sells it with the most melodramatic sobbing ever. Especially the part where Bright, Roux, and Emary come in and ask what's going on, and get told one at a time.

[Zeonista]

1) I know the Gundam Team aren't professional soldiers, but the way they do whatever the eff they want and seemingly never get punished kinda grates on me.

It's a pretty good impression of a bunch of teenage volunteers working together to get something done. From a strictly military sendup, it's ridiculous, Even by the "military lite" standards of AEUG, they are too casual by half. I guess that was supposed to be part of the comedy aspect. Eventually the game got real for the kids, and they rallied behind Judau to try to do things better.

2) Do we ever get an explanation for why Glemy was so obsessed with making Leina into a debutante? It seems more than a little creepy that he just takes this random girl kidnapped from the colonies and trains her in etiquette, ballet, and the piano just to show her off at a party.

I can't think of a good explanation at all. It didn't get any better after I read The Tale of Genji either.

3) It's been joked about before, but really, are Mashmyre's flashbacks to Haman for real, or is he just prettying up his memories?

Originally he probably did receive the rose and a kind word from Haman-sama when he did something praiseworthy. The story was improved in the telling, of course! The manga Char's Deleted Affair offers its take on the tale of the rose in passing.

4) About Chara, is there an explanation for her wild personality shifts (coquettish to rowdy to outright horny when piloting)? I kind of wonder if she wasn't already undergoing the Cyber-Newtype process even in her first few appearances.

She really likes MS combat, which gets her hot & bothered.... Chara is something of a comedic turn on a cyber-newtype, to the extent that such a person can be made comic. Despite such occasional lunatic behavior, she is a good pilot and loyal to Haman-sama when it matters.

[AmuroNT1]

She really likes MS combat, which gets her hot & bothered.... Chara is something of a comedic turn on a cyber-newtype, to the extent that such a person can be made comic. Despite such occasional lunatic behavior, she is a good pilot and loyal to Haman-sama when it matters.

But early on, she outright says she hates piloting MS and does so as little as possible. A couple of times when she's in the cockpit, she screams about how it's suffocating her. And then a couple of minutes later, she's practically shoving the control sticks into an inappropriate orifice.

[Zeonista]

She really likes MS combat, which gets her hot & bothered.... Chara is something of a comedic turn on a cyber-newtype, to the extent that such a person can be made comic. Despite such occasional lunatic behavior, she is a good pilot and loyal to Haman-sama when it matters.

But early on, she outright says she hates piloting MS and does so as little as possible. A couple of times when she's in the cockpit, she screams about how it's suffocating her. And then a couple of minutes later, she's practically shoving the control sticks into an inappropriate orifice.

One gets the feeling that the combat persona development did not develop as expected.

[DarthYAM]

I watched the second half mostly. The parts I saw I liked. I actually thought the Judau Haman scenes were very well done. Even tigerbaum (seriously, he punches her in a mech that has blades for fingers and only just stops before it impacts. She doesn't even flinch. Badass) mostly because there was a sense Judau genuinely sympathized with her on a level. He acknowledged that her backstory was no excuse for her crimes but he did have sympathy for her (he tried to persuade her to come with him after their final showdown). The Final battle should have been better, but what we got was ok enough.

Also the Dublin Colony Drop was both dark and tense.

[Amion]

I always wondered after watching the Dublin arc whether or not colonies have been reinforced since Operation British. Since the colony that fell during Stardust remained whole and this one does too. Really, it seems almost as if no one is really bothered about the world at large and only show concern for Dublin. As if they did not really expect a second apocalypse break-up in atmosphere.

Or is there some data that the attempt to stop the British drop colony actually caused the break-up?

[BrentD15]

I always wondered after watching the Dublin arc whether or not colonies have been reinforced since Operation British. Since the colony that fell during Stardust remained whole and this one does too. Really, it seems almost as if no one is really bothered about the world at large and only show concern for Dublin. As if they did not really expect a second apocalypse break-up in atmosphere.

Or is there some data that the attempt to stop the British drop colony actually caused the break-up?

Perhaps it was the Federation firing upon the colony to stop it from falling weakened it, and thus allowed it to break up.