The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

most of the things things we got in the original Gundam like the Core-system and Char's mask I more or less give a pass because it was the late 70s, the series broke new ground but was still somewhat tied down by silly, illogical ideas that realistically would never work, or get you laughed out of the federation.

It makes me think of a question I believe was asked on GunDamn about what archetypes you'd want to see die. I'd think the need for the Char-Clone to wear a mask would be one I'd pick, because from all the Gundam series I've actually seen, none of them were hiding their face to hide a disfiguring scar or something. I think Zexx wore the mask to keep his real identity secret? But it's been awhile. I guess Neo is doing the same thing since someone on the Earth Federation should eventually recognize the Ace pilot that SOMEHOW survived his retconned death. But hey, it's a cartoon at the end of the day so I look past it too, It's just one of those things I think about since its supposed to be a professional military.

As for Cagalli, I was going to point out how her whole...arc seems like a case of "Good idea in the hands of a strong writer, awful execution in the hands of anyone less"

Since that's Destiny as a whole, I even like the idea of Shinn becoming the bad guy over time, especially because Destiny really paints the brush that neither side is good, they're both pretty corrupt, so it's like who's ideals do you side with? Hey look, legitimate conflict that exposes the curse of war!
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

I've actually put alot of thought into the claims of Cagalli being broken by Destiny over the years and I have to agree that, actually, there is some logic to what happens. If you look at the full thing, Cagalli's arc in Destiny is that she can't just be blunt and direct anymore, she can't just run off like she did in SEED. She's a leader now and if she's serious about that she'll have to drop certain habits and let certain things go. Maybe it's because I'm in such a self aware transition in my own life currently that year by year that interpretation seems to hold more merit.

That said, there are still elements that are basically just taking a dump on her character. Splitting up her and Athrun to push him towards Meyrin is a big one, not helped by the fact that I always saw Meyrin as wish fulfillment for bland girls in the audience. You're not as smart or attractive as an older sibling or friend? Don't worry, you'll still get the hot guy they tried and failed with! Beyond that it ignores one the key elements of the previous show- Coordinators are not the next stage of humanity, they're a genetic dead end created from humans using science per their own vanity. Athrun and Cagalli as a couple seemed to represent, in attitude and biology, the needed direction for CE's future in that Coordinators and Naturals can't and shouldn't segregate.


As for Neo's mask- One of the reasons masked men have become so eye rolling in the franchise. Iron Mask is really the most '...ok, then' example in UC. Char added a band to a standard Zeon helmet and Chronicle had allergies. I'm still glad 00 made fun of it, with Graham tolerated only because he had the skills to back up his crazy and was easily flung at the Gundams.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

HellCat wrote:I've actually put alot of thought into the claims of Cagalli being broken by Destiny over the years and I have to agree that, actually, there is some logic to what happens. If you look at the full thing, Cagalli's arc in Destiny is that she can't just be blunt and direct anymore, she can't just run off like she did in SEED. She's a leader now and if she's serious about that she'll have to drop certain habits and let certain things go. Maybe it's because I'm in such a self aware transition in my own life currently that year by year that interpretation seems to hold more merit.
Your interpretation would work if Cagalli's actions matched anything at all what a "leader" is supposed to do. For most of the series, it's not that she can't be direct and brash like she was in SEED, it's that she's completely incapable of taking any action. She spends most of the series as just a victim of circumstance who sits on the sidelines. The only time this changes is during the battle at Orb when she gets the Akatsuki and takes charge.
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Amion
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

HellCat wrote:
As for Neo's mask- One of the reasons masked men have become so eye rolling in the franchise. Iron Mask is really the most '...ok, then' example in UC. Char added a band to a standard Zeon helmet and Chronicle had allergies. I'm still glad 00 made fun of it, with Graham tolerated only because he had the skills to back up his crazy and was easily flung at the Gundams.

Hmm, you forgot Kycillia in there, which actually makes what Char does seem more legitimate, considering his superior in the royal family not only wore a horned version of the typical soldier's helmet, but also had a face covering too, something he didn't have. And I I'm not sure what you are saying about Iron Mask. He had the most legitimate reason in-story mind you, to wear a mask. He's a cybernewtype, who can interface with a machine without the need to use his limbs for battle in a mobile suit/armor.

Though your point probably stands because he is, after all, copying the original masked asthmatic. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

I'm pointing to Iron Mask as perhaps the craziest UC got with the masked man concept

Char: "I wear a mask to hide my full face from those I plan to kill, heh"
Chronicle: "I wear a mask so I can actually breathe! Ugh, damn this planet"
Iron Mask: "I wear this mask for the shame over losing my wife. I've slid into being Darth Vader and will not remove this mask until our ideals have been realised!"
Char: "....Why did we invite this guy to go drinking with us?"
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

....and then Zeheart: "I wear my mask to enhance my X-rounder abilities because I am the ultimate stone cold leader of the vegan empire! "

and Neo just waits till his order of Akatsuki with a side order of Dragoons showed up.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

I thought Zeheart's reasons were initially kind of cute "Here, wear this obligatory homage for a reason that stands up ok in the story". Of course then they just keep adding lashings of Char references without that all important actually winning anytime or being charismatic.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

Oh, well my idea of Iron Mask has just been ruined. I thought he wore the helmet because of some of his cyber enhancements. Oh well, he didn't last fifty episodes.

And I would have to point out to you that Chronicle Asher frequently and consistently removes the mask throughout the story. As a matter of fact, when addressing people, he often removes it, donning it again only during combat in a mobile suit, so one must wonder why he wears it at all, except as a design alteration.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

The enhancements are part of it, true, but his overall motivation for wearing a full iron mask is pretty crazy. Gundam writers sometimes seem to forget that when you're a military commander you need to encourage morale in your troops, so strutting around like you just left the masquerade ball doesn't really help. 'Masked man' is certainly one of the more whimsical Gundam elements but few writers seem willing to poke fun at it like 00 did.

As for Chronicle- never said he consistently wears the mask, just that he has a sensible reason for wearing it when he does.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

HellCat wrote:I'm pointing to Iron Mask as perhaps the craziest UC got with the masked man concept

Char: "I wear a mask to hide my full face from those I plan to kill, heh"
Chronicle: "I wear a mask so I can actually breathe! Ugh, damn this planet"
Iron Mask: "I wear this mask for the shame over losing my wife. I've slid into being Darth Vader and will not remove this mask until our ideals have been realised!"
Char: "....Why did we invite this guy to go drinking with us?"
Schwarz: And I wear a mask because I'm ninja. No, actually it's because I can't give away my real identity to Domon and the viewers just yet...
Ulube: I wear a mask to hide my mark of allegi- I mean scar I got from the Devil Gundam.
Zechs: I wear this mask for the same reasons as Char but also because I'm unworthy of my real identity.
Rau: I wear a mask because I hate the sight of the face I've been given and my superiors allow me this eccentricity because I happen to be very good at my job.
Harry: I wear mask-like sunglasses because it is the height of fashion on the Moon.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

My point with Cronicle is that he isn't a masked man, he just wears a face scarf thing in combat for some reason. At first he sort-of does, but frankly the only reason people tend to designate him as a Char is because he pilot's a red mobile suit in the beginning, only to use standard colors for quite some time after that. He doesn't have ulterior agendas, and isn't even that competent a mobile suit pilot, at least not three times faster!! level.

And you assume the military in UC is the same as nowadays. A US or modern-day soldier would scoff at a commander wearing a Pickelhaube, much less wearing one themselves, but people a hundred or so years ago wore them proudly.

Just because something seems ridiculous to our current standards, and another reasonable, does not stand true for people in a different culture and time period. Zeon soldiers wear brown helmets similar to circa WWII soldiers, and exist in a fictional time goodness knows how far in the future. Don't get me wrong, it's kinda silly to think Char wouldn't be asked to remove his helmet under certain circumstances, and Neo, though I neglect to touch AU's.

Disregarding that particular issue, one must consider why the standard military uniform doesn't change over time as it has since the beginning of warfare. Particularly, recall that japanese Shogun and samurai wore very elaborate clothing and masks in battle to be more fearsome, so a person in Japan would not feel quite so strangled to the idea of a masked warrior as a Western viewer, particularly those of us in the US, where such things did not exist, even amongst the native populace during wartime, at least.

Thus, while it is on the whole silly in reality for Char and those following his trope, in-story, particularly UC like with Full Frontal, it is not at all and is almost expected.

And as as far as Iron Mask goes, these are the people who have a pirate for a captain and have gas mask-faced mobile suits in a force called Crossbone Vanguard, which serves as the military base for government that sees itself as a "Cosmo" reincarnation of a Middle Eastern empire of antiquity.

Nothing about the Crossbone or Cosmo Babylon is normal by any standards. But no one was laughing at them after they blew apart the Feddie forces, and people outright cheered when Iron mask's iron mask saved his life from a bullet, if you recall. In all honesty, his is the only mask that came into practical usage. :wink:

EDIT after reading Zeino's post. Oh yeah, Harry Ord is a beast. He doesn't need any excuses to wear mask glasses! :twisted:
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

Most of the US Mask wearers get a pass from me mainly for that reason of...it kinda goes along with the military uniforms that series established, also with all the WWII parallels going on.

...and also my meta standpoint of...it was the style of the 70s/80s, it was just a goofier time, but really the samurai/shogon stuff's actually a really good point to justify being allowed to get away with wearing something that obscures your face.

AUs though the masked villains military seem harder for me to accept like.. does OZ military look past covering your face if your just a young super skilled ace pilot?

AGE gets a pass for me just because it was the scientists' idea to make him wear this, the vegans were iffy on him anyways and they were already using psycho-helmets anyways.

Cosmic Era though... Earth Federation military just doesn't seem like it can get the pass that Zeon if only because of the lack of cues to such history, seems pretty standard military uniform attire, then you got this guy who...does anyone know WHEN Neo was assigned to the position he got? Because 2 years between being brain washed to... captain? unlike others who probably had more time under their belt to at least gain the respect to which people don't dare question the mask since.. hey this guy knows what he's doing. Looking back I REALLY forget how much Neo actually did in Destiny's plot before rejoining the Super Friends
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

Silver_August wrote:Most of the US Mask wearers get a pass from me mainly for that reason of...it kinda goes along with the military uniforms that series established, also with all the WWII parallels going on.

...and also my meta standpoint of...it was the style of the 70s/80s, it was just a goofier time, but really the samurai/shogon stuff's actually a really good point to justify being allowed to get away with wearing something that obscures your face.

AUs though the masked villains military seem harder for me to accept like.. does OZ military look past covering your face if your just a young super skilled ace pilot?

AGE gets a pass for me just because it was the scientists' idea to make him wear this, the vegans were iffy on him anyways and they were already using psycho-helmets anyways.

Cosmic Era though... Earth Federation military just doesn't seem like it can get the pass that Zeon if only because of the lack of cues to such history, seems pretty standard military uniform attire, then you got this guy who...does anyone know WHEN Neo was assigned to the position he got? Because 2 years between being brain washed to... captain? unlike others who probably had more time under their belt to at least gain the respect to which people don't dare question the mask since.. hey this guy knows what he's doing. Looking back I REALLY forget how much Neo actually did in Destiny's plot before rejoining the Super Friends
I think you are grasping at straws...if you are giving UC mask wearers a pass due to WWII parallels (what?!) then the same could be argued for Seed, since it was just following Universal Century parallels.

If you are looking for what Gundam series has the weakest excuse for a masked villain, look no further than Age, which has flimsiest reasoning behind having Zeheart wear a mask. There was no reason for it besides a one sentence excuse made by a random scientist. Almost every other mask wearer in Gundam history does it to hide their identity. Rau didn't want to be even associated with the man he hated. Neo no doubt was given the mask to hide who he was by Logos/Phantom Pain, a force that is very selective and is under the direct control of Lord Djibril. Who wants to question a guy that the boss (a multi-billion dollar psychopath) selected to lead? Even if he is wearing a goofy mask?


Yes there seems to be some need in Japan for there to ALWAYS be a masked villain in Gundam, but most AU's give at least a half-baked reason for their to be a masked villain (hiding identity seems to be the main one)....Age's came off as, "well we NEED a masked villain, so lets throw an excuse together because the fans NEED it!"

And if you are looking at the masked wearing villains from a practical/realistic standpoint in terms of it being allowed in the actual military...first you should consider the practical/realisticness of using giant robots in space combat. I mean, if you can accept that...then I think having a mask wearing ace would be easy to get past, regardless of explanation.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

Soma Taozi wrote:
I think you are grasping at straws...if you are giving UC mask wearers a pass due to WWII parallels (what?!) then the same could be argued for Seed, since it was just following Universal Century parallels.
Actually, Soma, you may want to read my post. The Zeon are commonly paralleled with WWII Nazi Germany in lots of ways, mostly the helmets. August was referring to that, as well as my point that throughout history, the uniforms of military forces differ not just by time period, but by culture and location. This after all, looks worse than anything Iron Mask or Char wore. Period

And if you are looking at the masked wearing villains from a practical/realistic standpoint in terms of it being allowed in the actual military...first you should consider the practical/realisticness of using giant robots in space combat. I mean, if you can accept that...then I think having a mask wearing ace would be easy to get past, regardless of explanation.
Thanks for bringing that up, I was going to mention it, but my post was already half essay. Personally, I look at masked men like I do Gundams now, considering they are in every series (Exept X!! :D ). I liked Zeheart's mask because it was esthetically appealing to me, while I hated Graham and Neo's because they were less so. Rau Le Crouset's fit him, so I liked that, along with Char. Really, at this point in our fandom, we might as well realize we can't beat this slightly inoffensive trope, and should accept it as we do the fact that Gundams look like Samurai in telltale ways.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

Yeah...I don't want to give the impression that I'm the guy who will nickpick every little thing and forget its a cartoon about robots that fight in space, no no i can be very meta and look at things from outside the bubble... I gotta do it for my Pokemon website when it comes to speculating the future of that series too..and often times being able to look outside the bubble pays off..but that's beside the point!

Point is! I can accept the idea of being able to get away with wearing a silly mask for some reason... if the reason logistically makes sense within the universe or has some kind of practical use. That's why I like Zehearts too..or at least don't mind it, it looked nice and it was supposed to enhance his abilities, the series established they already had helmets attempting to do the same thing so...there ya go!

Even Rau's i bought, if only because it was simple, it was all white, didnt cover his head and he probably had enough time in the military that the respect and ranks were on his sleeve that he could get away with it without question

But Neo, less then 2 years he surfaces and you're running around with long blonde hair and a black helmet? Hmmmm I'm not a fan of the "to hide my identity" excuse, wouldn't look good on military records that would surely require background checks, lol.

But hey nitpick, I accept the trope, I like it honestly, its just Neo always stood out to me as one of the lazier times it was implemented because we were meant to take it seriously since the show never questioned it.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

One must beg the question however, why Neo even exists at all. :evil: Because he should be space dust.

That's why I say they might as well bring Rau back. After all, anything Mu can do, Rau can do just as well? I mean, a beam saber to the cockpit/nuclear explosion/GENESIS firing isn't too much for Flaga to survive, impossible, possible things. :twisted:
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

It makes me really they wrote Neo as an actual clone of Mu and then they could dive into the moral complex of being a clone of someone who was great and awesome and then the love thing ..and then when he DOES help out the Archangel implying he gains some of his memories back, its more sweet and stuff.

But yeah surely Rau could survive a Requiem blast, oh waaaaaaaait....hey Rey

-Speaking of Rey I do like how minimal his character was in the early episodes, especially in terms of actually speaking...though the Newtype flash kinda felt like it was too soon to start dropping THAT big a hint.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

Don't worry, Rau will be back. Bandai will decide by some leap in logic to finally do the movie and get that out of the way before they make the grand dive back into the UC universe. Having no better villain to bring back, short of Lacus (Snicker I can't help it, Thundermuffin has more rights to the copywright than Bandai) and her evil empire. They'll say something about Rau surviving or newtype flashing his brain into another conveniant clone, and v wallah! Movie villain, Rau's Counterstrike.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

Amion wrote:Don't worry, Rau will be back. Bandai will decide by some leap in logic to finally do the movie and get that out of the way before they make the grand dive back into the UC universe. Having no better villain to bring back, short of Lacus (Snicker I can't help it, Thundermuffin has more rights to the copywright than Bandai) and her evil empire. They'll say something about Rau surviving or newtype flashing his brain into another conveniant clone, and v wallah! Movie villain, Rau's Counterstrike.
and of course Kira will be ready with the Digamma Freedom for an amazing final showdown that will leave the fates of him and Rau ambiguous and argued for years to come.
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Re: The Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster Thread

HellCat wrote:Cagalli's arc in Destiny is that she can't just be blunt and direct anymore, she can't just run off like she did in SEED. She's a leader now and if she's serious about that she'll have to drop certain habits and let certain things go.
Chris wrote:Your interpretation would work if Cagalli's actions matched anything at all what a "leader" is supposed to do. For most of the series, it's not that she can't be direct and brash like she was in SEED, it's that she's completely incapable of taking any action. She spends most of the series as just a victim of circumstance who sits on the sidelines. The only time this changes is during the battle at Orb when she gets the Akatsuki and takes charge.
Being a government leader is one part of it. The other part is that she was basically in opposition of her own people.

The Cagalli that some people fondly recall from SEED found herself enemies that she had no difficulty fighting against, from ZAFT occupation force in Africa, to ZAFT forces attacking the Archangel, to the EA fleet attacking her own country. In Destiny, she couldn't just shoot her own people even when she disagreed with them. (See her conversation with Athrun in the cave in SEED.)

It was only after Takemikazuchi sank that she was reunited with some of her fellow Orb soldiers. And with ZAFT attacking Orb and Yuna clearly putting Orb in danger over a wanted man, Cagalli no longer had any reservation to fight and that's when she showed a little of her SEED self again.

So, while Cagalli can be said to be a victim of circumstance, she's still true to the character established in SEED.
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