Zeon an allegory for japan?

[Scheuch13]

A lot of the themes are fairly obviously tied to WW2, but it seems like Zeon is a purposeful construct of the japanese during that during.

- Severely outnumber
- use daring tactics that are wildly successful at first.
- Feel like they were pushed into a war by an oppressive government (the US)
- Atrocities seemingly only committed by one side early on in the war (east asia)
- Feddies using super weapons to destroy the last remnants of Zeon (colony Laser, aka nukes)
- Obsession with creating war winning weapons (more akin to the german mindset other then the creation of say gigantic battleships like the Yamato)
- Defeated but still having fanatical holdouts believing in the cause.

But all of that does not explain why the japanese seem to love Zeon so much more then the federation, because the things Zeon does during the war are pretty horrible when you think about it. But then again from my standpoint the also seem to have a love affair with nazi symbolism (uniforms, gear, flags, etc). Just something I have noticed over the years.

[ShadowCell]

moved to anime and manga

[Admiral Larsen]

A lot of the themes are fairly obviously tied to WW2, but it seems like Zeon is a purposeful construct of the japanese during that during.

- Severely outnumber
- use daring tactics that are wildly successful at first.
- Feel like they were pushed into a war by an oppressive government (the US)
- Atrocities seemingly only committed by one side early on in the war (east asia)
- Feddies using super weapons to destroy the last remnants of Zeon (colony Laser, aka nukes)
- Obsession with creating war winning weapons (more akin to the german mindset other then the creation of say gigantic battleships like the Yamato)
- Defeated but still having fanatical holdouts believing in the cause.

But all of that does not explain why the japanese seem to love Zeon so much more then the federation, because the things Zeon does during the war are pretty horrible when you think about it. But then again from my standpoint the also seem to have a love affair with nazi symbolism (uniforms, gear, flags, etc). Just something I have noticed over the years.

That is sometimes a very good and worrying question to ask. I sometimes wonder about that myself and the answers are some that are of a concern.

[HellCat]

Zeon in the original series seems to owe more to Nazis in general and the German homeland. I don't really recall any other colonies siding with Zeon, it's all basically Side 3 vs the Federation and a handful of neutrals caught in between.

At the same time, given what side they were on in the war and they're much criticised handling of just about any situation where they've fought/invaded another country, I think it becomes easy to see why some Japanese fans might hold a romanticised image of Zeon. This does of course become quite uncomfortable when things like MS IGLOO dive further into the Nazi link and expect us to cheer for said side. On a related note, I read a report last year that certain German historians are distressed to hear that holocaust denial/support is apparently on the rise in the nation's children.

I remember back when Neo-Era was still an active member of the community, he mentioned a study was done a few years ago that found a disturbing number of hardcore Gundam fans in Japan were fairly right wing, anti-foreigner types. Now obviously this shouldn't be held as a standard (I myself have been fortunate to talk to some wonderfully open minded and creative fans from Japan, as I'm sure others have too), it does provide food for thought.

[Scheuch13]

Sure their are strong links between zeon and the nazis. For instance zeons whole message is that humanity must evolve and become newtypes, and they try to force all of humanity into this through genocide on a massive scale via dropping colonies and asteriods on earth. Zeon was practicing eugenics much in the same light as the nazis.

Meanwhile the zabi family ruled over the nation state much like japanese dynasties.


I think zeon is not a direct allegory for imperial japan but an amalgamation of iperial japan and nazi germany.

Where as the federation iis clearly the united states/western world. Always medling in zeons affairs and using thier power to trample on the soverignty of that nation state. Admiral nelson forcibly opening up japan to world trade, the usa economically strangling the japanese govt with sanction during their invasion of china, forcing japan to have less warships then other euopean nations under the washinton naval treaty after ww1.

Maybe this history of being bullied by the west explains some of the nostalic leaning towards zeon amongst the japanese, much like american southerns still supporting the confederacy. Maybe people just like a losing cause fighting against the establishment and the status quo.

Eitherway i think the support of zeon amongst the japanese despite the evil that is done by said organization is evidence to some extent of a nation still clinging to a nostalic period which really is not worth adoration.

[mcred23]

Eitherway i think the support of zeon amongst the japanese despite the evil that is done by said organization is evidence to some extent of a nation still clinging to a nostalic period which really is not worth adoration.

IMO, I think a big part of it is based purely on Zeon having a few likeable characters (Ramba Ral being a good example, and maybe Char?) that serve to show the faction isn't totally evil or whatever (And AFAIK are still very popular characters in Japan), and that Zeonic mecha designs (Namely the Zaku) have always been very popular. People like some of the characters and the mecha, so of course, they like the faction as well. I would think that's how quite a few people became fans of one faction or another...

[HellCat]

I think that in discussing this, we have to be careful not to suggest that Japanese people are some kind of hive mind who all feel the same way about things. Japanese culture is perhaps more conservative but there are surely many Japanese fans who prefer the Federation faction and characters. The first three Gundam TV series are very clear with the idea that not even fellow Spacenoids welcome Zeon (ZZ even highlights that Side 3 was glad to see the back of the movement) and for that to be a fact of the earliest Gundam stories says that the very least the creator never intended for them to be championed by viewers.

There's also the issue of if you choose to believe focus of a story is a 100% statment on the creator's politics. With Unicorn for example, I've seen alot of folks take issue with Marida's 'The spacenoids found a new light called Zeon' speech, especially in relation to the aforementioned 'Other Spacenoids hate Zeon' fact. The scene thus comes down to if you feel this is simply the character's opinion being expressed or the scene is there because the authors present that as their view of the faction. It's not like telling a story with terrifying villains makes the creator's ones themselves, it's just a necessary component of a story.

Lastly, as mcred23 said, people are drawn to good villains for some reason. Americans love Darth Vader, British people love Daleks, Japanese love Zeon. It's perfectly possible to like a well composed villain without harboring controversial politics. There's Nazi-like undertones to both Vader and the Daleks but you could easily say that means the people so strongly recognise these characters is because as a result they resonate as the definition of everything audience's feel must be fought. Could it be so different for the view of Zeon?

[NastyNate]

The show is made by Japanese people and the Federation is usually the good guys. I think some fans like zeon is because they like to root for the underdog. Maybe some of it does root back to some imperialistic wwII and earlier instincts.

[Tangerine]

The show is made by Japanese people and the Federation is usually the good guys. I think some fans like zeon is because they like to root for the underdog. Maybe some of it does root back to some imperialistic wwII and earlier instincts.

I agree with that underdog theory, and the fact that Zaku as war machine click with their imagination of humanoid mecha. Decades after MSG and they still good on sales. Plus, aside from their ideology - the WW 2 German uniform, insignia, weaponry, etc are simply cool-looking even by today standard. The Luger gun or Tiger Tank for example. Maybe they depict the Zeon like that so they'll have cool looking but real bad ass enemy with masked vigilante as their ACE.

Seriously, it's just a no-brainer solution. For sure they don't want to depict Japanese empire as the Zeon since it'll be belittling their own country. So they pick another. With German outshine Italy in every military aspect, it's an easy choice to pick German as Axis and Allies as EFSF as an example for things like uniform, standard procedure like salutes, mil insignia and such.

[NastyNate]

Seriously, it's just a no-brainer solution. For sure they don't want to depict Japanese empire as the Zeon since it'll be belittling their own country. So they pick another. With German outshine Italy in every military aspect, it's an easy choice to pick German as Axis and Allies as EFSF as an example for things like uniform, standard procedure like salutes, mil insignia and such.

Good point. WWII has some very cool looking uniforms, weaponry, and battles. It was a real War. Today war is not so glorious with troops fighting cowardly terrorist. It would not make as cool of a bad guy with mobile suits if that were the case. But if they did the enemies terrorist mobile suits would be blowing themselves up all the time and I can't imagine how big of an explosion that would cause.

[Kenji]

Y'know, if I wanted to keep my balls, I wouldn't call a Tuareg "cowardly" to his face. Or a Georgian. Or a Kosovar. Or an Afghan, for that matter...

Generally speaking, sure, short wars and guerrilla wars aren't the pictures of glory, I suppose.

[Xenosynth]

Hey hey hey. Keep it on topic. No need to drag in modern politics into this.

Anyway, in some ways with Zeon, I do feel people do look a bit too far into the issue since the comparisons to Nazi germany are more obvious with Zeon. But in all honesty... I think most 'Zeon' fans, even ones that try to justify what they do, just think they are cool. Zeon has, at least, in my observations, cooler mobile suits, cooler military outfits, and sometimes that's all people need.

It's the same way many people on a game like Star Wars: The Old Republic/KOTOR games might play as a Sith character, just because to some people, it feels it's more fun or cool than a jedi character. And no one really can deny that the sith, in pretty much all incarnations, are depicted as bad guys of a high degree and are generally horrible, yet still people like to play as them, or wear a Darth Vader backpack or shirt with him on it. Same with the empire. I have to venture a guess that I've seen more imperial insignia shirts get worn (or in the case of my uncle, tattoo) than the Rebellion's insignia. Not only that but like Gundam, there are some works that follow a Sith and even while they are doing bad things they are trying to show this character in a protagonistic light. Authors have different feelings on how things should be presented.

I feel the same phenomena just applies with Gundam. While some people might legitimately see Zeon as good guys who were downtrodden, at the same time, I doubt it's a huge majority view of Gundam fans in general, and usually if it is it's because they are malinformed and sometimes don't realize the scope of Zeon's attacks rather than thinking it was okay that they gassed colonies and dropped them on Earth.

But then again, that's just my opinion on the matter.

[Kenji]

It's probably also worth noting that Sid Vicious palled around with a swastika on his shirt.

Does it mean anything? Who knows? Even if John Simon Ritchie wasn't dead, he probably couldn't tell you.

[watchtower000]

Really it comes down to what people were saying before, in fiction, sometimes it is just fun to root for the 'bad-guys' and the fact that they are the underdogs only makes people root for them more.

Also i think japan likes zeon more is because of the memorable characters. When i think about the Universal Century, my first thoughts are mostly that of the Zeon members depicted in it. It isn't because I like Zeon as an ideology, I just liked the characters involved. Or if I didn't like them, they were effective in whatever message they were trying to get across, thus I remembered them much more...then say, General Revil.

[Ferrus_Manus]

Look at Uchuu Senkan Yamato. I think Leji Matsumoto tried to recount WW2 with it. But this time the japanese are the good guys. It always suprised me that the crew of the Yamato consisted only of japanese people (okay, Gundam 0079 is also partly guilty of this), but now that I think about it is clear to me why. He wanted that the Yamato saves the world (Japan) from the evil Gamillion invaders (USA and the allies) that bombard the earth (Japan) with meteors (US aerial bombing and nuclear bombs). I like Matsumoto, and I like Yamato, but I think it is some kind of propaganda, at least partly. I think it was his way to rationalize WW2.

[Zeino]

Look at Uchuu Senkan Yamato. I think Leji Matsumoto tried to recount WW2 with it. But this time the japanese are the good guys. It always suprised me that the crew of the Yamato consisted only of japanese people (okay, Gundam 0079 is also partly guilty of this), but now that I think about it is clear to me why. He wanted that the Yamato saves the world (Japan) from the evil Gamillion invaders (USA and the allies) that bombard the earth (Japan) with meteors (US aerial bombing and nuclear bombs). I like Matsumoto, and I like Yamato, but I think it is some kind of propaganda, at least partly. I think it was his way to rationalize WW2.

Funny, from what I've seen of Yamato 2199, Gamillion seem alot more like the Nazis than the USA. Their supreme leader's name is Dressler, what does that sound similar to? Hitler.

[Scheuch13]

Look at Uchuu Senkan Yamato. I think Leji Matsumoto tried to recount WW2 with it. But this time the japanese are the good guys. It always suprised me that the crew of the Yamato consisted only of japanese people (okay, Gundam 0079 is also partly guilty of this), but now that I think about it is clear to me why. He wanted that the Yamato saves the world (Japan) from the evil Gamillion invaders (USA and the allies) that bombard the earth (Japan) with meteors (US aerial bombing and nuclear bombs). I like Matsumoto, and I like Yamato, but I think it is some kind of propaganda, at least partly. I think it was his way to rationalize WW2.

Funny, from what I've seen of Yamato 2199, Gamillion seem alot more like the Nazis than the USA. Their supreme leader's name is Dressler, what does that sound similar to? Hitler.

Doesn't really sound like hitler to me.

Supreme leader also sounds closer to emperor

[ShadowCell]

yeah 'cuz i mean we all know Hitler wasn't the supreme leader of Germany or anything...

[Scheuch13]

yeah 'cuz i mean we all know Hitler wasn't the supreme leader of Germany or anything...

He was the democratically elected leader

[Ferrus_Manus]

yeah 'cuz i mean we all know Hitler wasn't the supreme leader of Germany or anything...

He was the democratically elected leader

Wrong, he was not elected, he was appointed by Reichspräsident Hindenburg. But thats not what we are talking about here.