Gundam Protagonist you Consider the Best

[schwarz ritter]

See, this is interesting, because the pasts of characters like Marida and Angelo has garnered criticism from some as being excessive. Anyways, it doesn't matter to what degree Banagher has suffered; your original point was that he hasn't faced ANY hardship, and that just flat-out isn't true.

I would have to agree with said critics: as much as Gundam's supposed to "show the horrors of war" and all, I personally think its exploitative. As for your other point: perhaps you're right. We have two more episodes coming. Maybe they'll (hopefully) change the remaining storyline completely and screw with Banagher and make him suffer so much, I actually feel sorry for him. So...(drumrun) I 'll give him a chance.

First of all, he's 16. At that age, belonging and acceptance are very, very important. Second, it more points to feelings of isolation in general, to a loneliness that would very likely pursue him into adulthood. That's hardship, especially at his age.

-_- Very well then. I'll give you that. He's an "average" teenager.

Well, you said that his logic was right all the time in your original post. That aside, what he says isn't nonsense, unless you actually want to argue that "killing is bad" and "these wars are pointless" are incorrect positions to take. No, he just doesn't know put his ideals into practice on a place like the battlefield, and as such just does what he feels is expected of him (fight, and surrender himself to the NtD). But he isn't a soldier, and that's not the purpose that the Unicorn was made for, and as such letting himself be used by the power it has is the wrong choice and leads to death. Banagher's development is not in a changing of perspective; instead, it's growing into an understanding of how he can use his perspective to protect the ones he loves.

It's not what he says, but rather, what he tries to do. But again, like in our first point, I'll stop whining and instead wait for the last two episodes, see what happens.

See above. He was still going through character development at the time. He's only a hypocrite so long as he uses the Unicorn for violence and destruction.

I'll give you that too.

Well, no, they're not entirely an illusion in X - Tifa, after all, is very much a true-blue Newtype. But even the fatalistic word on Newtypes that X provides is only one interpretation, and it's not the final word (especially since it's only very tenuously UC). To be honest I'm quite happy that Unicorn is taking the concept seriously. It's a far bigger challenge to to tackle Newtypes than to just dismiss them as freak accidents.

I will remain in my position. And even if UC doesn't say it as obviously as X did, we still do know, subconsciously, that Newtypes aren't the future. Their dwindling numbers are proof enough.

Yeah, but the difference is that Wesley Crusher is shown to be in the right (if I'm following you criticisms of him, here), whereas the situation at Torrington is made out to be an actual tragedy that, again, is partially Banagher's fault. Had he used the Unicorn's more violent abilities, maybe he could have defeated the Shamblo, but as far as Riddhe was concerned he wasn't seriously trying - and that, ultimately, is what gets Loni killed. Banagher tries to reason with her, but does it in a way that ignores his surroundings and the others present. He's in the wrong, or is at least partially so, and the show portrays him like that. So, no, not Wesley Crusher

Well, its not like Wesley is shown to be actually right: I mean, Picard does give him a verbal Brightslap (IIRC: my memory sometimes fails me), telling him that he could've caused a huge crisis with the Cardassians. However, I will agree that, unlike Wesley, Banagher didn't have anyone to actually snap him out of his babble and instead tell him to take the most practical, albeit nonlethal, course of action. Picard most likely would've made a battle plan for Riddhe and Banagher to disable the Shamblo, and not kill Loni (which was Banagher's ultimate goal, after all). But what I just said is FanFiction territory, so I'll leave it to rest.

Spoiler

Is that her death? If so, I will refrain from commenting, as I haven't seen nor read that part of the series.

Spoiler

Yup. She wasn't given a break.

I love these kinds of debates. Makes your brain roll over inside your head to have a civilized, nice conversation with interesting people.

[Kei Katsuragi]

First off, I will say that I agree 100% with what yaz said at the top of this page.
Second, and one that unlike Shinn wasn't the poster child for wasted potential, the Gundam character that I personally find most interesting and all around the best would have to be GARROD RAN.
For all kinds of reasons, not the least of which is seeing how he matures over the course of the series - especially in his interactions with Tiffa and, in my opinion just as interestingly, his more limited interactions with Ennil El(another one of my favorite characters in the series) as well as with other characters like Captain Badass.
Plus, as far as making his début goes, his was pretty awesome.
And then he only gets better from there.
But most interestingly of all, he's not this unbeatable super-pilot who insta-pwns anything the moment he gets into a mobile suit...he's actually a pretty mediocre pilot for most of the beginning of the series, albeit with the occasional flash of brilliance. But overall, Witz and Roybea are significantly better pilots at first, and once he gets over his cockpit phobia, Jamil himself is orders of magnitude beyond even them. Garrod only very gradually starts getting better as time goes on, and I LOVED that about X as compared to both its predecessors and many of its successors.

Garrod is a close second for me. You essentially summed up everything there is to him, and made me realize his skill progression. It is rather subtle compared to most shows were the skills just sort of come to the pilot because of newtype/super mode/zero system/SEED Factor/Innovator/X-Rounder power.

Non-sequitur: Big, big fan of your GSD rewrites. Keep them up

[Amion]

Yep, I enjoyed Garrod's development more than any other protagonist, because it felt natural and painted him as a real character. One thing that really worked well with him was his desperation to attain newtype abilities, but later realized the error in trying to seek too much power. Asemu from AGE went through a similar spell, but it didn't turn out as good as with Garrod.

I've heard good things about Loran from Turn A, but haven't watched that show yet.

[Zeino]

So no love for the five Wing pilots at all ?

[schwarz ritter]

Of course! Duo is the best In his show, of course. He's got the best personality (or rather, he's the only one with true likeable personality), and he's badass.

[Dark Duel]

Well, Wing has a special place for me because it was both my entry into the franchise AND my first mecha anime ever.
But looking at it objectively, of the five, the vast majority see very little actual character growth to speak of; You look at any one of the five of them in their respective first appearances, and you look at the five of them at the end of the series, and they're pretty much exactly the same. Wufei's maybe a bit less angry and Trowa has mellowed out some, but the other three - including Duo and Quatre, who are my favorites of the lot - have not changed in any meaningful way.
It's especially obvious when you take them - any one of them - and compare them to, for example, Garrod. Even Domon in G Gundam had more meaningful development, though in his case probably 90% of it occured in the show's last 15 or so episodes. Garrod though. DAMN.

Aside: I really, REALLY wish X had gotten a stateside release. That's one of the biggest regrets I have with the way things have gone in the past few years with anime, it never happened and probably never will.

[schwarz ritter]

I completely agree here with Dark Duel on the last two lines of his: Gundam X is severely underrated and deserves respect. It has excellent character development, the characters themselves are perhaps the ones with the most personality in the entire franchise (yes, I'm generalizing, much to my chagrin), and its not all emo mode/depressive, despite its dark setting. And the mechs are sweet, different, refreshing.

Hmmm...Dark Duel, let's go to PMs. I have an idea I wanna share with ya

[Zeino]

Well, Wing has a special place for me because it was both my entry into the franchise AND my first mecha anime ever.
But looking at it objectively, of the five, the vast majority see very little actual character growth to speak of; You look at any one of the five of them in their respective first appearances, and you look at the five of them at the end of the series, and they're pretty much exactly the same. Wufei's maybe a bit less angry and Trowa has mellowed out some, but the other three - including Duo and Quatre, who are my favorites of the lot - have not changed in any meaningful way.
It's especially obvious when you take them - any one of them - and compare them to, for example, Garrod. Even Domon in G Gundam had more meaningful development, though in his case probably 90% of it occured in the show's last 15 or so episodes. Garrod though. DAMN.

So you 're ignoring Heero's development over the course of the series where he changes from a mentally unstable killer who doesn't care at all if he lives or dies, has mostly closed his heart off to others and knows nothing outside of fighting and killing to someone who realizes his life is worth living, Fight's not because it's what he's told to do but now for the sake of other people and has grow sick of killing and wants to stop.

Ask for the other four, Trowa learns to open up his repressed emotions, Quatre goes from naive boy to the Gundam Team's leader and tactician. Wufei is constantly having his wordview about what is Justice and what is Evil altered throughout the series (though that development wouldn't be complete until Endless Waltz) and Duo... Okay, I can't really think of anything for him at the moment. But the point is the cast DO change in meaningful ways.

Aside: Am I the only one here who still likes Kira Yamato?

[schwarz ritter]

Aside: Am I the only one here who still likes Kira Yamato?

Nope, you're not alone. Well, I actually hate/like him: the "hate" is more on how Morosawa wasted his potential.

I like him because he basically defies the world for the sake of his own views. Sure, he's annoying at many times, but at least he pretty much saved humanity by stopping both factions from exterminating each other. So I respect him for that.

[Admiral Larsen]

Well, Wing has a special place for me because it was both my entry into the franchise AND my first mecha anime ever.
But looking at it objectively, of the five, the vast majority see very little actual character growth to speak of; You look at any one of the five of them in their respective first appearances, and you look at the five of them at the end of the series, and they're pretty much exactly the same. Wufei's maybe a bit less angry and Trowa has mellowed out some, but the other three - including Duo and Quatre, who are my favorites of the lot - have not changed in any meaningful way.
It's especially obvious when you take them - any one of them - and compare them to, for example, Garrod. Even Domon in G Gundam had more meaningful development, though in his case probably 90% of it occured in the show's last 15 or so episodes. Garrod though. DAMN.

So you 're ignoring Heero's development over the course of the series where he changes from a mentally unstable killer who doesn't care at all if he lives or dies, has mostly closed his heart off to others and knows nothing outside of fighting and killing to someone who realizes his life is worth living, Fight's not because it's what he's told to do but now for the sake of other people and has grow sick of killing and wants to stop.

Ask for the other four, Trowa learns to open up his repressed emotions, Quatre goes from naive boy to the Gundam Team's leader and tactician. Wufei is constantly having his wordview about what is Justice and what is Evil altered throughout the series (though that development wouldn't be complete until Endless Waltz) and Duo... Okay, I can't really think of anything for him at the moment. But the point is the cast DO change in meaningful ways.

Aside: Am I the only one here who still likes Kira Yamato?

Pretty much. Most opinions these days, particularly here in the states is well they imagine all sorts of well ugly things they wish that they can do to him. Most of it is his wasted potential but his actions in the earlier episodes of SEED leave enough to complain.

[farjad93]

Aside: Am I the only one here who still likes Kira Yamato?

No. No, you're not. I still like him too

[Kratos]

I never really disliked Kira; like most, I just found him wasted potential, and maybe a little boring. Which actually sums up my feelings towards SEED as a whole.

[Xenosynth]

Best protagonist in my honest opinion? Gonna be the generic 'Kamille Bidan' 'Camille Veedan' or whatever else you may localize it as, guy. He is a very flawed character from the start, and mainly, being brief, I enjoyed his character growth. His role in ZZ also helped me get over the ending on Z >.> Sucks to think your main character is going to be a 3 year old child mentally.

Also, I have a love/hate relationship with Char Aznable. There are some occasions where I really like the man, and other facets of his personality (see: Char's Counterattack, Garma's Death) that I really think are just... flat out wrong. His speech in Dakar always is awesome to read though.

Also, for non UC: GAR! Erm... Garrod takes the cake easily out of all the 'alternate universes', in my opinion, the only one close to him being Rolan/Loran Cehack. Garrod is a nice bundle of ass kickage without being on silly levels. Not to mention, I love the designs of his MS <3 >.> I have a thing for the satellite cannons, shush.

[AmuroNT1]

Voice of dissent time!

Obvious tho it may be, I'm going with Heero Yuy. The character arc he goes through (especially if you count Episode Zero) really demonstrates the horrors of warfare that are a core element of Gundam and how one can overcome them. He's a damn skilled pilot and soldier, but because he's kindhearted deep down he suffers through the fact that his "job" brings nothing but pain and suffering. At the start of the show he's become very self-loathing because of this, even if you don't include the little girl from EW. It's the very definition of "necessary evil"; people have to die for anything to get better, and he really doesn't like that. The major turning point is his interacting with people like Relena and the Gundam Pilots who think of him as something other than a murderous monster, which causes him to slowly start opening up. On top of that, he realizes that he doesn't have to be a killer, since he can use his skills to protect Relena and those like her who want to end the cycle of warfare and really make the world a better place.

Runners-up for me include Garrod, Shinn, and Tobia from Crossbone. The first two have been covered rather well already, so I'll just briefly explain why Tobia rocks: He's clever, quick-witted, completely free of angst, big-hearted, and refuses to think of himself as anything special even though he's a Newtype.

In regards to what Fritz was saying early on, I personally am not a fan of "Newtype hax" because it often ends up being the only way anything gets accomplished in UC series. I think the Star Wars comparison is flawed, because Jedi are not the only people who get things done; mundanes like Han, Chewie, Lando, and the rest of the Rebels actually do the lion's share of the work, while all Luke does is deal with the opponents the Rebels can't, namely Vader and the Emperor.

But all too often, Newtypes are the main focus of the show and the only effective characters, much like SEED where Naturals might as well just be chimps in wigs for all they matter to the plot (which kind of hurts the anti-racism message). I'm really tired of the "classic" formula of a male civilian techie dweeb who falls into the cockpit of the Newest Gundam, stumbles around leaning on his emerging powers for a while, and then turns into a psychic god of war who can't be touched by mere mortals.

Zeino: I tried to like Kira, I really did. The big problem for me was how his character arc went. He went through the period of smug arrogance because he thought he was the only person capable of protecting the Archangel, but rather than really mellowing out of it he went in an entirely different direction and expanded the attitude. Instead of just thinking "I'm the only one who can protect Archangel", it became "I (and my friends kinda) are the only ones who can protect the Earth". Admittedly, a lot of this is due to the horrible writing in Destiny, but overall I just found him insufferable. If you like him tho, more power to you.

[schwarz ritter]

Voice of dissent time!

Obvious tho it may be, I'm going with Heero Yuy. The character arc he goes through (especially if you count Episode Zero) really demonstrates the horrors of warfare that are a core element of Gundam and how one can overcome them. He's a damn skilled pilot and soldier, but because he's kindhearted deep down he suffers through the fact that his "job" brings nothing but pain and suffering. At the start of the show he's become very self-loathing because of this, even if you don't include the little girl from EW. It's the very definition of "necessary evil"; people have to die for anything to get better, and he really doesn't like that. The major turning point is his interacting with people like Relena and the Gundam Pilots who think of him as something other than a murderous monster, which causes him to slowly start opening up. On top of that, he realizes that he doesn't have to be a killer, since he can use his skills to protect Relena and those like her who want to end the cycle of warfare and really make the world a better place.

While not my favorite, I appreciate Heero as an MC precisely due to everything you just said. I agree with everything you said. And he does have development: its just that he doesn't turn into an emotionally-unstable douche like Riddhe like most people wanted him to turn into

]Runners-up for me include Garrod, Shinn, and Tobia from Crossbone. The first two have been covered rather well already, so I'll just briefly explain why Tobia rocks: He's clever, quick-witted, completely free of angst, big-hearted, and refuses to think of himself as anything special even though he's a Newtype.

I have to read Crossbone again...

In regards to what Fritz was saying early on, I personally am not a fan of "Newtype hax" because it often ends up being the only way anything gets accomplished in UC series. I think the Star Wars comparison is flawed, because Jedi are not the only people who get things done; mundanes like Han, Chewie, Lando, and the rest of the Rebels actually do the lion's share of the work, while all Luke does is deal with the opponents the Rebels can't, namely Vader and the Emperor.

Finally, someone who agrees with me on the Newtype magic issue. Thanks, Amuro: you couldn't have said it any better n_n

I'm really tired of the "classic" formula of a male civilian techie dweeb who falls into the cockpit of the Newest Gundam, stumbles around leaning on his emerging powers for a while, and then turns into a psychic god of war who can't be touched by mere mortals.

Unfortunately, Mr. Banana Links is popular, sooo....we're gonna keep getting that formula. Much to our chagrin. :/

[Fritz Ashlyn]

Voice of dissent time!

. . .

In regards to what Fritz was saying early on, I personally am not a fan of "Newtype hax" because it often ends up being the only way anything gets accomplished in UC series. I think the Star Wars comparison is flawed, because Jedi are not the only people who get things done; mundanes like Han, Chewie, Lando, and the rest of the Rebels actually do the lion's share of the work, while all Luke does is deal with the opponents the Rebels can't, namely Vader and the Emperor.

But all too often, Newtypes are the main focus of the show and the only effective characters, much like SEED where Naturals might as well just be chimps in wigs for all they matter to the plot (which kind of hurts the anti-racism message). I'm really tired of the "classic" formula of a male civilian techie dweeb who falls into the cockpit of the Newest Gundam, stumbles around leaning on his emerging powers for a while, and then turns into a psychic god of war who can't be touched by mere mortals.

(emphasis mine)

I already addressed the point I bolded in your post, but I'll use the current Star Wars example again because it's simple. I'll paraphrase what you posted and change some words around to reiterate what I said before:

"I think the [newtype hax argument] is flawed, because [newtypes] are not the only people who get things done; mundanes like [Kai], [Hayato], [Tenneth Jung], and the rest of the [Federation military] actually do the lion's share of the work, while all [Amuro] does is deal with the opponents the [Feddies] can't, namely [mobile armors] and [Char]."

Let me ask this again: do people watch/read/play a piece of Star Wars IP and think "UGH THESE JEDI USING THEIR FORCE POWERS"? And let me be perfectly clear, I'm not asking if people are tired of Jedi being crammed into everything (God knows I am) because that isn't the issue here - do people get annoyed at a Jedi in a story using their Force abilities? Because in a way the UC Gundam version of that is what's being complained of.

Look, I'll say this again: newtypes are the focus of their shows BECAUSE THEY TEND TO BE THE MAIN CHARACTERS. Saying they're "the only effective characters" is gross hyperbole at best and total fabrication at worst. Being tired of some of the standard patterns of storytelling that have developed in Gundam shows is okay, but don't hide behind this bizarre assertion that UC shows are about lone psychic teenage demigods who have to shove drooling retards aside to shoot mind bullets at things to "get things done".

Zeon didn't form a newtype army to invade and occupy most of Earth. The Federation didn't fail to stop the colony drop in 0083 because their opponents newtyped it up. Et cetera, and so on.

And the thread should be over already, because the answer to the question is Raban Karcs.

[schwarz ritter]

And the thread should be over already, because the answer to the question is Raban Karcs.

THAT...made me crack up.

Umm...its not a question of who's the best, as if a poll or something. It's just your personal opinion, that's it.

[Seraphic]

Heero Yuy.

I'll make this short:

He's a genuine good human being, and he's never bratty or annoying. What really amazes me about him is that he actually takes ownership of the things he does wrong and does every thing he can to set things right. When he killed off all the Alliance pacifists by mistake, he visited every single one of their families and APOLOGIZED, offering his life in return for theirs. That takes fucking balls. And how many Gundam characters have you ever seen apologize? (Setsuna on the other hand murders his own parents, but just ends up blaming some asshole.)

Outside of G Gundam, I think Heero is the best melee fighter. (I still haven't seen some of the newer material like UC and AGE.) He defended himself against Epyon and Altron, two Gundams specialized for melee, but he still did better with just a regular saber. We also know he's a great pilot because he's piloted Leos on several occasions and survived, even against a Gundam. Also, he's one of the few pilots who are useful outside of a MS, and he could probably kill any of us with a popsicle stick. He's an excellent fencer, too.

His interaction with the other characters is fantastic. Everybody looks up to him. He is a very interesting character in that he is a symbol of strength, purity, and righteousness for others. That goes pretty much for every character in the show that knows him.

He's smart and he knows what he's doing. He can see the big picture. Heero even once called Treize on his BS when they talked face to face in Luxembourg. Now, how many Gundam pilots do you know how can talk to one of the major players in a war and be able to hold a conversation as an equal?

Many people complain about the fact that he never manages to assassinate anyone, but they never realize that he does this for good reason, and it's because he can see the good in people. At first he couldn't kill Relena because he was regaining his humanity, and he didn't kill her when she became head of Rommefellar because he saw the potential she had as a leader. Then he abstained from killing Duo because he saw that Duo was afraid to die. Heero's not the mindless machine people expect him to be.

Still, Heero is very different from many Gundam leads. He's not really the sort of character you relate to very well (it's hard to do that, actually, since none of us are child soldiers), but he is instead the sort of character you admire for what he does in the story. I admit he is a little over the top sometimes (controlling his own heartbeat and brainwaves?) and sometimes the show tries really hard to make him look cool (pro basketball player? pro horsemanship???)

Anyway, Heero is awesome, and we should all be ashamed for not being more like him.

Also, Duo is great and all, but I think his personality is so loud that no one pays attention to the other characters. And another thing: everyone always praises Duo for being funny and cheery, but no one discusses the fact that he acts that way to hide his fear of death. He's got everyone fooled--even his fans.

[Amion]

I never really consider Wing because it was my entry into Gundam as well. Heero's development isn't quite as blatant as it should be, which is the only flaw stopping him from being my favorite. If only we had gotten some more scenes where he actually shows more of his inner thoughts near the end, and I would be satisfied and say he is my favorite.

Kamille Bidan. I think he had the second best out of all the protagonists in Gundam. There is so much going on with him and others have covered that, so I'll just say it was nice to see him grow up, which was the point of Kats' character I think. Kats shows us constantly what Kamille was like in the beginning (well, not quite as bratish and more competent).

[Sinquser]

Setsuna F. Seiei. He's a good guy, but his good nature was often used by the likes of Ali Al-Saachez and Ribbons Almark. His upbringing brought him to believe that everything can only be resolved by fighting, but eventually learned and understand the consequence of this on those people around him. He had many regrets, but learned to make peace with them and change for the better.

Heero Yuy is also interesting. My take is that, even with all the superhuman ability and intelligence he had from the beginning, he's someone who didn't know to work his own emotions. It's funny how in the start, he says that to live a good life, one has to live by their own emotions. He's a soldier, and because of that self awareness about it, he's warping his outlook on everything. In Luxemburg, that line when Treize said he's disappointed with Heero, I think that was spot on because of this flaw. Heero eventually got better; I think he mentioned his eventual realization of what he should really do when he talked to Relena before sortieing in the last episodes.

Also, Kamille Bidan, with the points already said by other posters.