Gundam Characters You wish that Survived>

[zerogradius]

he already had plenty of reason to hate Celestial Being for what they did to Louise (and he would've been right, too, because it was Celestial Being that actually did it) so Kinue's death was still superfluous

His hatred was far greater after Kinue died. If I recall, it was only after he learnt of her death that he began spouting vitriol toward Celestial Being.

[ShadowCell]

he already had plenty of reason to hate Celestial Being for what they did to Louise (and he would've been right, too, because it was Celestial Being that actually did it) so Kinue's death was still superfluous

His hatred was far greater after Kinue died. If I recall, it was only after he learnt of her death that he began spouting vitriol toward Celestial Being.

which doesn't change my point in the slightest, because at any rate, it was only after he got home from visiting Louise that he learned of Kinue's death

so, once again, Kinue's death, and her character in general, were entirely superfluous

[J-Lead]

he already had plenty of reason to hate Celestial Being for what they did to Louise (and he would've been right, too, because it was Celestial Being that actually did it) so Kinue's death was still superfluous

His hatred was far greater after Kinue died. If I recall, it was only after he learnt of her death that he began spouting vitriol toward Celestial Being.

which doesn't change my point in the slightest, because at any rate, it was only after he got home from visiting Louise that he learned of Kinue's death

so, once again, Kinue's death, and her character in general, were entirely superfluous

00 felt like it did a lot of things "just because." It's a side effect of having far too many characters; you can't possibly give them all meaningful arcs or significant places in the story. I'm pretty sure Mizushima killed Kinue off to just rid himself of a burden on the writing, and give Saji some character development, which turned out to be superfluous with what happened with Louise, as you mentioned.

That said, I'm don't necessarily want Loni to have survived. The fact that she was a Four proxy pretty much dictated that she was fated to die at some point, but I would have liked for the writers to give her a bigger role in the story other than a vehicle meant to drive along Banagher's and Riddhe's character development. As it stands, we only really have her word for how badly the Federation treated her and her family, and from the sounds of it, it's really kind of their own fault anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is it would have been nice to see her get some actual sympathetic backstory, so that we could actually maybe feel a little bad for her as she spouted on and on about what the Federation did to her in that psychommu-induced hissy fit. It would have made her more successful as a tragic character. Instead, they spent that time animating that Juaggu abortion... <.< (did anyone seriously buy that stupid thing?)

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I tend to say that we weren't meant to feel bad for her at all. It wasn't really her "character" we were meant to see, but rather what she was "representing" during that battle; the feelings of hatred, vengeance, etc spawned by wars of the past against Banagher, who represented the attempt of forgiveness for those past sins and moving on into a future of their own making rather than letting themselves be completely dictated by the past like most Zeon remnants have done.

[ShadowCell]

which makes it cynically hilarious that Riddhe represents the feeling of "what the hell are you doing you stupid moron she's killing everyone just shoot her already oh god dammit fine I'll do it"

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Yeah, kind of like how I'm sure many viewers feel in such moments where you got guys pointing guns at eachother, but all they're doing is talking, trying to justify themselves, and so on, so people just think, "God, just shoot him while he's running his mouth!" lol

[J-Lead]

I tend to say that we weren't meant to feel bad for her at all. It wasn't really her "character" we were meant to see, but rather what she was "representing" during that battle; the feelings of hatred, vengeance, etc spawned by wars of the past against Banagher, who represented the attempt of forgiveness for those past sins and moving on into a future of their own making rather than letting themselves be completely dictated by the past like most Zeon remnants have done.

Which is exactly why I have a problem with the way she was presented. As it stands, she's just a vehicle to drive along various themes in the story, as well as present the development of Banagher and Riddhe through those themes. Because of that, the exchange between her and Banagher was meaningful in the context of the themes of the story, but a little TOO literal for my tastes. A big theme in the story is that people like the Zeon remnants fight because they have suffered in the past, which gives them motivation for their actions. Loni could have been a very powerful representation of that theme, given that the psychommu fed off her suffering and drove her to committ terrible things, but we only have her word for how badly she's suffered, and very little context as to what she went through to turn her into the person she is beyond the implication that she got Batman'd at some point, so that theme just kind of falls a bit short. It's implied that her father was kind of a doucher anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is; the theme is there, but it just kind of came off as a bit hamfisted rather than meaningfully represented. I felt like the writers were just using her as a representative rather than an actual character. A newtype moment between her and Banagher during the psyco-resonance showcasing parts her past to Banagher (and the viewer by proxy) would have been sufficient given the time constraints (they did it for Marida ) and would have actually helped give a bit better reason for Banagher to be so hesitant to shoot, or perhaps a brief exchange between Banagher and Kirks that gives a bit more context to her past.

Yeah yeah "I'm missing the point, she's not meant to be sympathetic or tragic" I know, but without at least some context or tragic backstory, the theme she's supposed to represent is just sort of "there" and doesn't come off as particularly well-presented.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Loni seemed to be suffering the "Sasuke Syndrome", lol. Even though it's obvious (at least to us viewers) that there was never any real wrong done unto her (that wasn't deserved), she clearly wants to deny any sort of wrongdoing (after all, it's her family) and make her and her family into some kind of case of unjust victimization, then tries to twist facts and things to justify her own actions in response afterwards.

[ShadowCell]

if they'd bothered to humanize Loni before tossing her into the Shamblo, then there might have been some meaning behind Banagher's efforts to save her--because we would have known there was something there to save. as it was, Loni was just a rabid dog. you can cop out and call it a Newtype connection all you want, but the viewer isn't privy to that, so the viewer is just left in Riddhe's position, wondering why Banagher doesn't just shoot the little maniac already.

[J-Lead]

Loni seemed to be suffering the "Sasuke Syndrome", lol. Even though it's obvious (at least to us viewers) that there was never any real wrong done unto her (that wasn't deserved), she clearly wants to deny any sort of wrongdoing (after all, it's her family) and make her and her family into some kind of case of unjust victimization, then tries to twist facts and things to justify her own actions in response afterwards.

I feel that would make the theme even less relevant. I think it's a little bit more along the lines of there was no real wrong done unto her parents that they didn't deserve, but losing close family members can be excessively traumatic no matter how bad they were. On that note, I feel it's kind of implied that Loni is a victim of circumstances produced by her family's actions as well as Kirk's and the Zeon remnants' (they did raise her after all,) rather than the Federation just doing their jobs. She genuinely feels that she's a victim, and she is when you think about it; she just has a very biased and misinformed perspective based on her upbringing and situation, not to mention the influence of psycommu-daddy driving her train of thought. That's why she spouts on and on about the Federation being villainous and evil; it's not like she has any perspective beyond her own little world... a little world that we get no real glimpse of. That's why Banagher was calling her out on her nonsense, basically "This isn't what you want, this is just what you feel like you're obligated to do because life wasn't fair to you, and it's just making everything worse for you and everyone else. Let it go and live for something better."

In summary, if you want to present someone as a victim of the past that fights because they suffered, you kind of have to give some context to that motivation even though in a practical sense, that person is deplorable and has to die. The fact that she's such a big focus of the latter half of the episode kind of necessitates such backstory.

if they'd bothered to humanize Loni before tossing her into the Shamblo, then there might have been some meaning behind Banagher's efforts to save her--because we would have known there was something there to save. as it was, Loni was just a rabid dog. you can cop out and call it a Newtype connection all you want, but the viewer isn't privy to that, so the viewer is just left in Riddhe's position, wondering why Banagher doesn't just shoot the little maniac already.

Pretty much sums up my point rather well.

On that note, this discussion is getting a bit irrelevant to the actual topic and should probably be moved to the main Unicorn thread or a new one altogether.

[Cipher8492]

Hmm...I'm not really sure if Amuro and Char are really dead. I mean, Beltorchika's Children said they were KIA but that's a manga and Tomino said that the manga's weren't canon, but some of the wiki's I've seen say that it's official. I don't want to get off topic, but if they were in fact dead, then I wish Amuro didn't die. He's like the Cheetos of Gundam pilots; sure, there are really awesome variations of it (Kamile, Banagher) but the original is always the best.

[DAG101]

Hmm...I'm not really sure if Amuro and Char are really dead. I mean, Beltorchika's Children said they were KIA but that's a manga and Tomino said that the manga's weren't canon, but some of the wiki's I've seen say that it's official. I don't want to get off topic, but if they were in fact dead, then I wish Amuro didn't die. He's like the Cheetos of Gundam pilots; sure, there are really awesome variations of it (Kamile, Banagher) but the original is always the best.

Tomino never said that mangas aren't canon, Sunrise said that--and according to them, ALL animation is cannon, including, say, both versions of the Zeta story. So Canon in Gundam can't really be figured out quite so easily

Anyway, that aside, the end of CCA showed them both below Axis, surrounded by MS that were exploding from the heat on atmospheric entry, and I think it's been stated by Tomino, or other writers, that they're MIA at the end, presumed dead.

Anyway, I'm happy that Amuro died--he's a good character, yeah, but I prefer him dying over him being constantly used and used until everything that's good about him is gone and he's merely a puppet to place in Gundam shows (Probably a bit hyperbolic about that, but just saying, I prefer dead Amuro to overstayed-his-welcome Amuro)

Also Quess and Hathaway's deaths were stupid >.< I prefer the Evolve version of their fates

[Cipher8492]

Anyway, I'm happy that Amuro died--he's a good character, yeah, but I prefer him dying over him being constantly used and used until everything that's good about him is gone and he's merely a puppet to place in Gundam shows (Probably a bit hyperbolic about that, but just saying, I prefer dead Amuro to overstayed-his-welcome Amuro)

Also Quess and Hathaway's deaths were stupid >.< I prefer the Evolve version of their fates

You have point about Amuro. I guess dying like a boss is a fitting end for him and Char. Like when

Spoiler

Shepard died at the end of ME3. You feel sad that he died and you want him back, but you eventually realize that it's a better ending for him.

Same with Amuro; the triumphant hero meets his end as he saves the world from his rival, and he is remembered for eternity. Of course, if he actually survived then I'd like to see what would happen next for him.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

At the very least, it would be cool to see a cameo of Amuro as some "mysterious stranger" (older man probably) to the main character(s) that helps get them out of the dumps about something, and then, after they leave, he says something...does something...looks at something...SOMETHING...to make it obvious to us viewers/readers that it's him.

Like Judau as Grey Stokes was a cool thing to do, IMO, then revealing the ZZ's head hidden under the Gump's helmet.

[Cipher8492]

Am I the only one that hates that the original Lockon Stratos (Neil) gets killed off and they replaced him with his TWIN (Lyle)? I mean, if it was because of budgeting and Sunrise didn't want to spend money on a new character then that's alright, but they at least could've introduced Lyle as a twin sister or something! It shouldn't cost that much to add breasts, wider hips, and bigger eyes to a male to make a girl! Hell, call her Lydia and give her the Cherudim! Have her fall in love with Tieria and make snappy one-liners or something! GIVE ME SOMETHING FUN AND EXCITING TO LOOK FORWARD TO!

Ahem...but I digress; what I want to say is that Lockon's death was sad and it added drama and tragedy to the season, and I'm fine with that, but what makes me want him to survive is so that we won't have to deal with the fact that he's replaced with a legitimate clone of him. I was really looking forward to a new Meister at the beginning of season 2, but I felt disappointed that I got stuck with a copy, to say the least.

[ShadowCell]

especially by keeping the same, distinctly male voice actor

oh, that would have been hilarious

[DAG101]

@Cypher: They did kinda make him a bit different--hell, a lot of his character/development was that the CHARACTERS expected him to be Neil, leading to him trying to prove he WASN'T...although I think they shoulda done more with the character

[Compass]

Kind of hard to do that when they looked identical.

Heck, H/allelujah was more distinguishable. And he was the SAME person

They missed the cake when the only difference in S2 was the eyepatch vs. no eyepatch.

[Cipher8492]

especially by keeping the same, distinctly male voice actor

oh, that would have been hilarious

Hmm...keep the voice, and make her a super bruly woman mad at the world? That would make an awesome second season! xD

[DAG101]

Kind of hard to do that when they looked identical.

Heck, H/allelujah was more distinguishable. And he was the SAME person

They missed the cake when the only difference in S2 was the eyepatch vs. no eyepatch.

They shoulda kept the eyepatch somehow...that was too awesome for just a few episodes...lol