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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:26 am 
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Mecha Flunky
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I've seen all of it. From the score I gave it on Anime Planet it's a 2.5 out of 5. It's ok. If your ok with some fan service and some harem stuff go for it. If not look else where.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:16 pm 
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Mu La Flaga wrote:
Man did you guys ever derail the train from it's tracks :P

I would like to throw in my bit on this and say, different strokes for different blokes.
But that would sound it implying only to males then wouldn't it making it sexist :P

I think the thing is here Kosh just doesn't appreciate it with harem element to the giant mecha.
But then again we have other ones with harem elements sort of like Gravion, Godannar, Aquarion ect.
We even have shows were the sexism or things of the sort are barely.

I mean is it the harem aspect that gets to you or is it the sexual side of it Kosh?
I mean if you've seen a series like this and Macross, you know that in some ways from the mind of some Japanese people the formula can't get tossed around too often without things being re-used.

Just my thoughts on this, hey anyone want to help me put this train on the tracks again with a crane or 2? :P


You know what, I can't really go more in-depth on my feelings about Vandread unless I re-watch it and remember all the bits and pieces that pissed me off and formed this opinion. And that's not going to happen, because I would see that as a waste of my time.

For what it's worth: the problem is NOT that men and women have romantic or sexual relationships, I never said that. The problem was that there was a certain essentialism to the show that is frequently present in harem anime, and which I find revolting. In other words: implications of 'this is what men are like and this is what women are like' that reduce things to stereotypes but without addressing those problems in an intelligent way (like, say, Macross or Gundam often do).

Also? Saying heterosexual relationships are 'basic biology'? Are you implying homo/bisexuality aren't?

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:33 pm 
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No that wasn't it, I was just saying how the way the joke is worded it kind of sounds more like an in joke worded by males sort of though.

And as for the other stuff.
I did ask if it was the harem aspect or the sexual aspect of the "harem" genre that just rubs you the wrong way?
Is it the sexual aspect or is it the whole big group romance aspect of it all of like 3-5 people lusting for one guy?
Like I suppose I'm just curious to kind of partially disect your thoughts a little when I made the earlier post of mine.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:48 pm 
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I might take a stab at this although my reasoning might be different to Koshernova's.

I tend not to like how harem anime lay out their female characters like they're on a buffet table. Most of the female character development ends up based on their relationship with the main guy, as though the guy(and by extension the audience) is going around getting a "taste" of each female character. The female characters don't interact well with other characters since everything becomes about their sexual tension with one guy, making them rather one dimensional. The main male character also becomes really shallow because the girls all fawn over his strengths and in the end that's all you see from him.

There are some harem anime I actually like though. I do like School Rumble, because even though the girls are objectified just like all the others, the author occasionally manages to explore character relationships beyond just boy-girl interaction, and he's not afraid to show the weakness of his main guy.

It's not just harem anime though. There are many other anime aimed at guys where the female characters are characterised by their relationship with the guy characters and nothing more. It's not about lots of girls lusting over 1 guy, it's about how these characters become bland caricatures.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Vandread was a fun show back in the day, and one of the shows that helped Studio Gonzo gain a lot of popularity. I remember it with some warmth, since it was nifty sci-fi fun with mecha at a time when mecha anime were thinning out, and those that were around tended to be deadly serious.

It's rather deceptive in the beginning, with a comic action premise that begs for consideration. Vandread is set some time in the future, after humanity had settled in space in a rather scattered fashion. Men and women have become completely segregated, and exist in a state of low-level warfare. Our Hero Hibiki gets captured in an attack, and becomes the object of fascination from a couple of female pilots who are not sure why they ought to like an enemy. (OK, one of them doesn't care at all about "why", bless her. :D) This turns out to be a lucky break for all concerned, because Hibiki's mecha suit can combine with those of four other female pilots to form powerful machines that are about the only thing that can defeat a fearsome enemy armada that has made itself known. Along the way there are harem hijinks, a new appreciation for People Who Are Different all around, the shock of discovering planets where men & women still live together, and the awful secret behind the enemy force.

In terms of actual classification, Vandread is closer to Yamato Nadesico than Tenchi Muyo. It is certainly not "Love Hina in Spaaaace"! Yeah, there's harem elements, but they are part of the story, not the reason for the story. There are a lot of humorous and somewhat serious questions about gender-appropriate roles in doing things, although most of them are aimed at the viewer. So yeah, check it out, and enjoy a blast from the past.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:39 am 
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Newtype Emo Guy
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Koshernova wrote:
Mu La Flaga wrote:
Man did you guys ever derail the train from it's tracks :P

I would like to throw in my bit on this and say, different strokes for different blokes.
But that would sound it implying only to males then wouldn't it making it sexist :P

I think the thing is here Kosh just doesn't appreciate it with harem element to the giant mecha.
But then again we have other ones with harem elements sort of like Gravion, Godannar, Aquarion ect.
We even have shows were the sexism or things of the sort are barely.

I mean is it the harem aspect that gets to you or is it the sexual side of it Kosh?
I mean if you've seen a series like this and Macross, you know that in some ways from the mind of some Japanese people the formula can't get tossed around too often without things being re-used.

Just my thoughts on this, hey anyone want to help me put this train on the tracks again with a crane or 2? :P


You know what, I can't really go more in-depth on my feelings about Vandread unless I re-watch it and remember all the bits and pieces that pissed me off and formed this opinion. And that's not going to happen, because I would see that as a waste of my time.

For what it's worth: the problem is NOT that men and women have romantic or sexual relationships, I never said that. The problem was that there was a certain essentialism to the show that is frequently present in harem anime, and which I find revolting. In other words: implications of 'this is what men are like and this is what women are like' that reduce things to stereotypes but without addressing those problems in an intelligent way (like, say, Macross or Gundam often do).

Also? Saying heterosexual relationships are 'basic biology'? Are you implying homo/bisexuality aren't?

There are a lot of trashy harem anime out there, but Vandread is not one of them. If I recall, there was only one love triangle on board the ship involving Hibiki, Dita and Misty and that only happens in Vandread: Second Stage. There is a lot going on in Vandread, far more than what you see in Tenchi Muyo or Love Hina.

As far as the 'what men are women are supposed to be like' reference you made, you have to remember that the men and women in Vandread live on separate planets and do not interact with each other. Their knowledge is based purely on rumours, so it is understandable that such dialouge would be present, but again, it is not the central theme of the show. Men and women working together for the common good is.


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:34 am 
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Koshernova wrote:
Also? Saying heterosexual relationships are 'basic biology'? Are you implying homo/bisexuality aren't?


Not at all. There is absolutely no difference between how any form of sexuality works. The only difference is the target of desire. However I doubt I have to explain why humans as a species were given the desire to procreate.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Destiny_Gundam wrote:
Koshernova wrote:
Also? Saying heterosexual relationships are 'basic biology'? Are you implying homo/bisexuality aren't?

Not at all. There is absolutely no difference between how any form of sexuality works. The only difference is the target of desire. However I doubt I have to explain why humans as a species were given the desire to procreate.

I don't see how any of this is an issue, anyway, seeing as how homosexual and/or perhaps bisexual relationships were perfectly normal in the show. Before the two sexes met, the men procreated by creating a clone baby between two bros (lol). The women formed long term relationships where one or both of the partners would carry the child. The show even had a transsexual character who was regarded as part of the family regardless of their past.

If there's anything to the show, it's how progressively it handles these issues.

I also didn't see how Vandread was much of a harem show. There was some sexual tension, but that is going to happen in a circumstance where two sexes meet for the first time. Only Dita seemed to have romantic interest in Hibiki. Meia I thought only had a friendly or professional comrade-in-arms relation to Hibiki. The only one really out to bone Hibiki was Jura, who was really only curious about what it was like to have sex with a man or become pregnant through such means. And remember, Jura is also already in a long-term relationship with another woman on board the ship.

I don't know. I didn't like the show, either, but I didn't see all the foul and evil things you are claiming it was. Sometimes I am too quick to judge a show if it rubs me the wrong way, but if I get the chance I try to temper myself and see more clearly.

***
Despite watching the whole thing through and loving it, it had never occurred to me that School Rumble was harem anime, but I guess it turned out that way. It was just that those 'complications' for Harima had developed so accidentally and so naturally that it seemed completely understandable. I guess that's how you do harem right. The female counterparts for Harima were never objectified by him personally, but I think the show did do this through the other male classmates acting like dumbasses.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Vandread is basically a harem-mecha show before IS was even created(I think). It has a unique premise of a man vs woman sort of thing that reminds me of the Coordinator vs Natural conflict in CE.

The mecha/ships in this show were very unique and well made, but the CGI kind of made it lack luster. But that's just me. If it were done in 2D ala SEED then it may have been much more enjoyable.

The harem aspect was alright, even though it follows the First Girl Wins scenario then there shouldn't be a point to the harem(in which all girls should have the same odds of getting the guy as the first girl). There is plenty of character development and it helps return the man and women back together.

Is it a good mecha show? Yes.
Is it a good harem show? I've seen better but it isn't bad.

Give the 1st season a try.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Well, within the series itself none of the girls actually won.

Spoiler: show
The dropped sequel was to be about Hibiki and Dita's daughter, though.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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Overlord Zaru wrote:
The mecha/ships in this show were very unique and well made, but the CGI kind of made it lack luster. But that's just me. If it were done in 2D ala SEED then it may have been much more enjoyable.


Which really makes me leery as CGI in shows like SEED and MFrontier didn't impress me all that much.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:04 pm 
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The CG sure wasn't bad for 10 years ago.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Overlord Zaru wrote:
The mecha/ships in this show were very unique and well made, but the CGI kind of made it lack luster. But that's just me. If it were done in 2D ala SEED then it may have been much more enjoyable.


Which really makes me leery as CGI in shows like SEED and MFrontier didn't impress me all that much.


Well if they cell-shaded the mecha in 2-D, it could have been more popular even.

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