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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:54 am 
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Newtype Emo Guy
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Chris wrote:
zerogradius:

Spoiler: show
You can hardly say the 00 movie is ripping of Frontier, because stories about humans having wars with aliens they can't communicate with are old. You could easily argue that Frontier ripped off Ender's Game, and I'm sure Ender's Game probably copied it from somewhere else.

Spoiler: show
Macross and Gundam are the two longest running and most prominent real robot mecha anime series in existence and are competing against each other. For years Gundam has been doing its own thing and so has Macross. However, this year both franchises release movies about aliens that humans cannot communicate with, which leads to confusion about the other species and violence ensues. I realize that Macross is not the first to use such a storyline (these days hardly anything is truly original) but they've been using the alien shtick for decades and people have come to expect it from them. Gundam decides to use aliens for the first time, which is fine given the tone of the TV series, but they make their alien storyline very similar to the one used in Frontier. The only difference between the Vajra and ELS is that the later absorbs matter. And it only just happens that in both cases there was only one person who could communicate with the aliens and said person was instrumental in saving the world? I don't think so. I think they looked at the success that the Frontier TV series was and used that as a basis for the aliens that would eventually show up in 00.


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:51 am 
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@zerogradius: I disagree that it totally rips off storyline of Macross Frontier.
Spoiler: show
Because they both fit the theme they already set-up before. In Frontier, music is always the theme from the beginning. And to make music as a way to communicate with aliens is something you'll always expect from a Macross series. As for 00, it has "Peace through communication" theme down from TV series where it's not about aliens at all. Later, aliens that can't communicate in normal way (words or language) becomes the most difficult obstacle to proof that concept. In other words, both series went with their own theme and ideas and ended up having similar outcome and circumstances. But they never intersect (as in, ripping off each other ideas) and went in parallel way. And that's why no one else seems to point out that it rips off Frontier, because even if you find similarities between them, it's not. It's a logical continuation of TV series (with "dialogues to come" hint and all that), already planned since beginning. Not because they saw Frontier success and suddenly rip off the idea.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:51 am 
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Macross competing with Gundam? Surely you jest sir.

In 29 years we've only had 3 TV shows, five OVAs and three movies out of Macross. With Gundam we've had 12 or 13 TV shows, a dozen or so OVAs and four movies in nearly 33 years.

In short, there is no competition. Macross is Macross. Gundam is Gundam.

Okay so here are my thoughts on the last few episodes of Gundam 00 and thoughts on 00 in general. I actually now think that one of the major themes of the story was correcting the "distortion." We hear Setsuna talking about this pretty early on, about how he thinks that something is distorting the world and whose fault it is. And we actually do see things start to distort in the show. Everything is going just fine for CB even though what they're doing is kind of morally ambiguous but then weird things start happening. First the Trinities, who not even the Observers knew about, show and cause even more chaos than CB, then the thing with the Trial system and Veda, then the revelation of Corner's treachery and the creation of the Veda/Ribbons controlled Federation government and A-LAWS. CB then fights to correct this distortion, even when they're not sure if that's what they should actually be doing. Ultimately they destroy Ribbons and A-LAWS, allowing the world to move on the path to peace by itself.
I like this ending because unlike say, Gundam Wing's ending, you don't get some magical change in humanity. I agree with you on that Burke, if the 00 Raiser had extended it's field to touch all people everywhere that would have been way unrealistic. In any case, what I mean is, ultimately CB only starts the ball rolling. Sure humans are starting to change into Innovators but as we see in the movie
Spoiler: show
even Innovators can end up being jerks. Plus the change into Innovators happens very slowly, even 50 years after the battle with the ELS, only 1/4 of humanity has made the change and it's implied by Ribbons that some people may never become Innovators, at least initially. I'm not sure if two Innovators can have an Innovator child. Also the new federation government may be pacifistic but they're not dumb enough to completely disarm.
In the end, I think 00 presents a more realistic ending than everyone-disarms-everyone-wants-peace-Gundams-and-MS-disappear, in the sense that CB is trying to correct Ribbons' "distortion" so that humanity can get on a better path.

Oh and for those that commented on the "magic" nature of GN particles, first off that one guy getting healed after his bomb collar went off? Well that was a manga so it's not really official is it? Secondly, how are GN particles anymore grounded in "science" than Minovsky particles? Or the Warp Drive of the Enterprise? Or all the weird crap they used to do with the transporters and the Swiss Army Knife deflector dish?

Now for the characters. Yeah, some characters like Graham and Allelujah got the short end of the stick this season, I won't deny that. And upon subsequent viewings I do wish that the Innovators had been a more credible threat. The only really interesting Innovades were Ribbons, Regene and Anew. Speaking of Anew, it's too bad she didn't get to wear the kinda clothes that Sumeragi, Christina and Feldt wore in season 1! And I actually did buy her realtionship with Lyle because the first time I saw them interact personally, I knew, yep they are gonna have a relationship. As for Setsuna and Feldt, I liked the moment they had back in season 1 over Dynames' cockpit and when she gave him the flower, I sat up and rubbed my chin and said, this looks like an interesting match-up. Especially when Setsuna says that he doesn't have "that kind" of relationship with Marina.
Oh Marina, Marina. Thanks to you guys, I'm not as hard on Marina but she still irks me in some ways. For example that whole scene with the gun and Shirin? I betcha Marina would feel a lot worse if one of those kids had gotten shot because she couldn't fire back at their attackers.
I also agree on Tieria, that he had some of the best character progression in the whole series.
Sumeragi. Yes, she was the resident uber-babe but she was a very human character and I loved it when we finally learned the reasons why she joined CB. Her development kinda tailed off after that but I did get the sense that she'd finally learned to deal with her demons, especially after she manages to talk Billy down.
Prince Ali, mighty is he! Some of you guys may think that he didn't get used in the second season as much as he should have but when you take his body count of named characters from the whole series plus that fact that he burned down the capital of Azadistan and his KPSA stuff, the man is one effective Mecha Murderer. And no, him breaking the fourth wall didn't bother me. Ali's cool like that.
One thing about Lyle Dylandy aka Harlockon Stratos, I think Burke had mentioned this in a previous entry, but one of things that i liked about Lyle was that, as awesome as he was, he still had some major character flaws, i.e. he could have gotten out of his situation and left Ali and tried to get him another day, but he still tries to kill him, even as he tries to talk himself out of it, and ends up paying the price. I finally realized that's what he meant when ghost Lyle told Setsuna to change in place of him.
And now we come to Graham Aker and the theory that I wanted to share with you guys, although I think someone else kinda beat me to the punch. Okay so we can see that Graham, for all his awesomeness, gets obsessed with the Gundam as his continua defeats to the point that he even has Billy modify a Flag, a suit with a not so great anti-Gundam track record, with a GN Drive Tau. Then after supposedly beating the Gundam, he gets an idea that they may still be out there and figures the only way to beat them is to totally devote himself to the ideal of a warrior. This combined with his obsession just makes him go totally crazy and he does crazy things like. 'Oh the Gundam is disabled, my perfect battlefield is ruined! Until next time shonen!' Or, 'Your comrades have arrived to aid you, my perfect battlefield is ruined! Until next time shonen!' But thanks to the new found awareness that Setsuna's gaining as the first True Innovator, he drags Graham into Newtype Naked Space and explains why he's being a total moron in a way that Graham can't ignore. And it ends up working. Setsuna speaks to Graham's soul and as we see in the movie
Spoiler: show
he's awesome again.

Ah man, I could talk about the characters all day but I'll stop with this: I loved how Kati and Patrick actually did get married because you really would think that Patrick would be the last guy that Kati would get with but he's persistent and it pays off. And Kati in a wedding dress? Yes please!

The mobile suits. I loved pretty much all the Gundams in this series, first and second season and all the mobile suits too. Yes, that includes the Aheads and Jinxs and no, I don't think they're any better or worse than the Flags, Enacts or Tierans. I also liked how they had an homage to the Leo with the Tieran's flight pack. The only mech I didn't like was Alejandro's way-over-the-top Alvatore and Alvarone. A giant golden mobile armor and suit with gold filigree around its comm screens with a gold pilot suit? I know we razz Strike Freedom for having gold bling joints but this monster of Alejandro's really takes the taco. Actually I wasn't that impressed with the Reborns Gundam either. In comes in way too late, and then just gets trashed.

Now if 00 does have one major flaw, it's leaving too many things to be explained in novels, mangas and other Expanded Universe stuff. Cross-marketing is all well and good (except when it comes to Star Wars) but not when you use it to explain stuff that should have been in the show, like Ribbons killing the Observers or background on Alejandro. Make up your own damn stories for the side stuff!!!

One other thing I wanted to mention, I think LightningCount said this, was how is the final battle between 0 Gundam and Exia anymore drooling, blatant fanservice than all the sexually-oriented stuff they shoved into SEED and Destiny? :)

When it comes right down to it, I think that 00 accomplished what it set out to do. Maybe not in the exact way it intended thanks to spiteful, moronic, fearful fanboys, but a success none the less. It is in my top five favorite Gundam series and will probably hold the number 1 slot for quite a while. Gundam AGE has so far shown that they really are aiming for a younger audience so I'm not quite enjoying AGE as much 00. Still, it was great way to cap off a troubled decade for Gundam and here's hoping that 2010-2019 will be even better!

P.S. Burke, have you seen Gunpla Builders yet?

P.P.S. More on the movie tomorrow.

Top Five Favorite Characters
1. Lyle Dylandy
2. Sumeragi Lee Noriega
3. Feldt Grace
4. Sergei Smirnov and Ali-al Saachez tie for this spot.
5. Ian Vashti (A man so smooth he literally has a wife that could be his daughter!)

Top 5 Favorite Mobile Suits
1. GN-001 Gundam Exia
2. GN-002 Gundam Dynames
3. GNX-603T Jinx
4. SVMS-01O Over Flag
5. GN-005 Gundam Nadleeh

Top 5 Favorite Gundam Series (so far)
1. Gundam 00
2. Gundam Unicorn
3. Gundam Wing
4. The 08th MS Team
5. G Gundam

oh, one last thing. Does anyone here think that there is any possible way that Anew could have come back just like Tieria and Regene did?

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:56 am 
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A comment on the series:
Arbiter said:
Quote:
Oh and for those that commented on the "magic" nature of GN particles, first off that one guy getting healed after his bomb collar went off? Well that was a manga so it's not really official is it? Secondly, how are GN particles anymore grounded in "science" than Minovsky particles? Or the Warp Drive of the Enterprise? Or all the weird crap they used to do with the transporters and the Swiss Army Knife deflector dish?

That's a poor argument and you know it. :) No, Minovsky particles are not that well explained, nor is everything in CE tech, but the point is there a feasible stretch of plausibility, and for me GN particles went above and beyond that. But since this argument is more or less subjected to personal suspension of disbelief, I doubt I could convince you to feel the same. :)

About the movie, all tagged, of course:
Spoiler: show
Quote:
I think this is intentional that, because of the desperate situation and young, still-growing humanity's "fight or flight" reaction to things, any follow-up to investigate the radio waves, or try to communicate with the ELSes (aside from Setsuna's efforts) aren't even considered. If this was intentional, I think it's brilliant, demonstrating how naive humanity is and that it still has a LOT of growing up to do.

OK, this gave me another good point where to retract my previous complaints. While it's hard to believe that NO ONE in any real position of power tried anything more than "shoot at it, shoot some more at it!", it could be seen as a definite slap on humanity's wrist in the movie, given that the story is about learning to communicate and thus about peaceful coexistence. Works for me as a plot-device.

However, one problem came to mind after reading through the latest comments: Aeolia's plan. Are we now to believe that Aeolia somehow knew about the ELS with some primitive tech of his day, managed some level of contact, and then launched into a complicated plan spanning a few hundred years, to artificially produce a human being who could communicate with the ELS? That was the purpose of the Innovators, yes? Not as much taking humanity forward in a significant evolutionary step as such, but enabling communication with an alien species?

Um, you sure there wasn't a harder way to do that, granddad? :P Or one more prone to failing? Of course I can see how witnessing/learning of the ELS's existence might've been a Lovecraftian moment, sending old Aeolia off his rocker, which would explain the quality of his "plan". :mrgreen:

Given the way e.g. Setsuna looks like by the end of the movie, are we to expect the real step forward is some sort of freaky fusion (because you probably can't cross-breed with metal), i.e. combining with ELS? Aeolia enabled artificial changes in the human body so we could be artificially morphed some more? Because successful communication with ELS seems to suggest that is inevitable. Or then we succeeded in creating a new ELS-Human elite class who can "communicate on a higher level" and are altogether better than us Joe Six-packs (who might not want to evolve in this direction). As I recall Setsuna grumbled something about regular humans not being able to "get it" in the movie...

All I'm saying the ending of the movie becomes more problematic than the ending of the series. I liked the way the series set up and limited the plan more than the movie. ;)

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:34 pm 
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zerogradius wrote:
By the way Burke, if you have not seen it already, you should try watching Macross Frontier. It's the best Macross has to offer since SDF Macross.


It's on my list of stuff to watch, indeed. :)

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
P.S. Burke, have you seen Gunpla Builders yet?


Yup, I just watched it a couple of days ago, actually, that and all the MS IGLOO stuff. Gunpla Builders is some nice, silly fun. MS IGLOO feels like a mixed bag, some pretty neat little standalone stories, interesting prototypes and mecha ideas, a few good characters, some nice CG animation (minus the "all face models and expressions based on Japanese people for Western characters" and the goofy "loose hair bounces and flows like tall grass in a strong breeze with every minor head bobble" hair), though some weird stuff, too (an actual "God of Death"? Huh?!). I also just caught up on the latest Gundam AGE, as well. AGE is an enjoyable series, so far, but it's... well... CUTE. I never thought I'd describe a Gundam production as "cute." Even Gunpla Builders, though silly fun, I woulnd't call "cute." AGE is definitely a kids' show, more so than any other Gundam production to date. Could be a good thing... could be a bad thing. I'm curious how the whole "multi-generational story" will play out.

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:55 am 
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So here I am with my comments on the 00 movie at last. First of all, Burke I find your initial reaction to the movie somewhat amusing because that's the exact reaction I had with Transformers 3. :) And I do believe that this is the best Gundam movie we've had yet. So glad this got made instead of the vaporware SEED movie. And if you're wondering by best, I mean better than Endless Waltz, F91 or Char's Counterattack. I'll attach a little caveat to my mentioning of CCA by saying that I haven't seen CCA in years and when I first watched it, my ideas about Gundam were very primitive, so it's likely that my mind will change upon subsequent viewings. And now, since people here aven't seen the 00 movie yet, I gotta put stuff in spoiler tags--

Spoiler: show
Burke Rukes wrote:
I gotta say, the 2nd viewing made me realize how great the setup, the buildup, the pacing of this film is. From starting us off with some mysterious happenings at Jupiter, then the action-packed and hilarious "Celestial Being: The Movie" bit, followed by some nice, quiet scenes with Saji & Louise, and Marina & Shirin. The Marina & Shirin shuttle scene and the brief battle around it helps build up the action and tension nicely, cranking it up JUST a bit, as the movie's plot unfolds. The mysterious return and shoot-down of the Europa (or Europa ELS copy), the missing fragments and the mysterious unmanned machines suddenly doing crazy stuff, getting people hurt and killed, the brain-splitting reactions of Innovators and quantum brainwave-using people... the Ribbons ELS copy and the creepy metal crystals... just ALL the buildup, from nice quiet "breather" scenes, to growing tension and mystery, and scariness and dread, leading up to the inevitable alien "invasion" and the fantastic battles... and ending with the fantastic "happily ever after" ending, it's all just built up and paced so WELL! I never felt bored, and I never felt rushed. :)

I agree. I felt that the buildup was great, especially with scenes like the schoolgirl Amia Lee being attacked, the Ribbons clone and Allelujah and Marie acting like they're in that Stephen King movie about the demon truck.


Quote:
I find it fascinating and quite insightful of certain characters in the movie, particularly Billy and (believe it nor not) Mina, and during the "what do we do" meeting on the Ptolemaois, Allelujah and Marie, all saying that the ELSes aren't actually attacking but trying to communicate with humans. And yet, the general reaction of MOST people, from angry Federation assembly members to certain individuals like Lyle, can only see the unintentional harm that was done, view it as an attack, and respond with violence, rather than even TRYING to find some avenue of communication, as Setsuna tries to do. Even coulda-been-a-villain Innovator pilot Shaman Descartes points out his intuition that the altered Jovian radio waves are a "cry," and yet, nobody follows up on this. I don't think this is a failure of the plot or bad writing, I think this is intentional that, because of the desparate situation and young, still-growing humanity's "fight or flight" reaction to things, any follow-up to investigate the radio waves, or try to communicate with the ELSes (aside from Setsuna's efforts) aren't even considered. If this was intentional, I think it's brilliant, demonstrating how naive humanity is and that it still has a LOT of growing up to do.

Which is why I like the ending of this movie better than say, Endless Waltz' because it's more realistic than humanity just magically changing overnight. I think that's why they included Descartes Shaman, to show that even True Innovators can misuse their abilities and still be jerks.

Quote:
Billy certainly has the smarts to try to solve this mystery, but frankly, I don't there was enough time, with his own resources. Thankfully Tieria comes up with a solution, with himself and Veda serving as a go-between link between Setsuna and the ELSes. Though, why Veda/Tieria couldn't have informed the Federation military and government about this, I don't know. This goes back to one of my complaints from my first review (which still stands), about why the Federation is given the run of most of the Celestial Being colony ship and access to Veda, even though Tieria is still doing his own things there as well (building Gundams, rolling out plans for the new ultra high-density GN reactor and 00 QAN[T], making himself new bodies, etc). I find Veda's "role" in relation to the Federation very confusing right now, and some explanation or good theories would be welcome.

I think it just came down to the fact that CB didn't have the military strength to keep the Feds off of the mothership so they just pretended to let them have it while Tieria/Veda were still truly in control.

Quote:
Now that some of you have pointed out that Mina is supposed to be a "replacement" for Nena Trinity... I kinda see that now. However, I think her slutty fan-servicy behavior is both annoying and unfortunately distracts from the useful expositional dialogue she gives. So she wasn't ENTIRELY useless, but I wish she could've been a more mature character.

I think that the only reason Mehna was in the movie was that her VA, Rie Kugimiya, is very popular in Japan as the "Queen of Tsunderes." Mehna is inexplicable in relation to the 00 universe. It's never explained why she looks and sounds similar to Nena, if she even knows about the Trinity siblings or what she was doing during the TV series. And yeah I agree that her clingy fangirl attitude distracts from when she's expositing. Although some of that is Billy's fault for being still hung up on Sumeragi! (Then again, wouldn't all us guys like to be hung up on Su?) I did read a cool fanfic where the author speculated that Mehna had once donated some of her eggs and she was told they had been used to create the Trinity siblings, although she didn't know what ultimately happened to them until she runs into Setsuna and he tells her that they had all been killed.

Quote:
I wonder if Veda's original intended Exia Meister had been there, would that person have had the mental faculties to reach an understanding better and faster?

Probably not because as far as I know, Ribbons himself was originally Exia's Mesiter before he changed things.

Quote:
I still feel like Shaman Descartes maybe should have had a bigger role in the story, but maybe his only real purposes were to show us how dangerous the ELS threat was, and to demonstrate how the government/military were reacting to more Innovators emerging in human society. I'm sure many humans fear the Innovators, and thus, Shaman is treated like a guinea pig, which would naturally lead to his briefly hinted despising of normal humans as an "inferior species." I'm also intrigued by his believing the altered Jovian radio waves are a "cry." Once again, it's too bad this little clue was pointed out, but nobody in the Fed military/government followed up on it. Billy was on the right path, but the only distance he could get with it was theorizing (and doing the horizontal hip shuffle with Mina).

Like I said, he was probably to demonstrate that even True Innovators could still be flawed as well as show that people were nervous about the coming forth of people like Descartes and Setsuna. One of the 00 mangas even has an "anti-Innovator war" occurring some time after the ELS crisis.

Quote:
I'm a little confused about the origins of the 00 QAN[T]. When we first see it in the beginning of the movie (SOOO love the nod to Nu Gundam/CCA with the opening title :P ), I was under the impression from the dialogue that the new ultra high-density GN reactors, and the 00 QAN[T] itself, were brand-new designs whipped up by Linda and Ian, at the request of Setsuna. But later in the movie, we hear that the data (plans?) for the 00 QAN[T] were in Veda. So was the 00 QAN[T] also part of Aeolia's plan (and like the other Gundams, already designed?), and such plans only recently discovered in or revealed by Veda to CB?

It seems the original design was sent from Veda by Tieria and expanded upon by Ian and Linda.

Quote:
Did the giant "mother" ELS turn into the giant space flower? We don't see the flower actually appear, it happens off-screen and we see the characters reacting to it, but it's there, and the big mama ELS seems to be gone, with the bazillions of "missile" ELSes swarming to the giant space flower. If that's the case, and we still see it around, many years later as the Sumeragi exploration ship is about to launch... what is it? Is it still an ELS, but just in a different form? Hanging out in the Earth Sphere, visited by humans (we see LOTS of continuous green GN particle drives/trails between Earth, the moon and the giant space flower during this scene), maybe humans now have the widespread ability to communicate with the ELSes now? A cultural exchange, perhaps? I love the symbolism of the flower, but the skeptical/amateur scientist in me has to know WHAT it is. :P

From what I understand the "Death Star ELS" turned into the flower because they saw in Setsuna's mind that that object was a symbol of peace to him and was later modified into a space station.

Quote:
And speaking of Innovator/human/ELS communication... on the Sumeragi ship, we see that schoolgirl from early in the movie, who got half her body infected/converted/abosrbed into ELS crystal, is back to having a normal body, except that half of her body has that grey metallic color. And when Setsuna comes to visit blind old Marina, he's completely that same grey metallic color, as well. Does this mean... that not only as more and more humans evolve or are modified into becoming Innovators, that we're also seeing, perhaps, Innovator/ELS hybrids? I can't help but ponder this possibility. And what about the Gundam we see in the closing shot - is the 00 QAN[T] now also a "hybrid" human/ELS machine, as we see it spontaneously grow flowers all over its body, perhaps possessing an ELS-like shapeshifting ability now?

I wonder how the ELS Quanta would stack up against the Turn A and the Turn X?

The one other thing I didn't like about the movie was how they basically copped out with the relationship between Feldt and Setsuna. Why even try to set that up if you're not going to resolve it well? Then again, mech anime isn't exactly well know for being good with romance. I mean, considering all the risque poses they put Kira and Lacus in, you'd think that they were a couple but they don't really do "couple" things.

One last thing I want to comment on is the sequence where Setsuna see a vision of the ELS's origins and why they had to leave their home planet was actually the best scene in the movie because we have definitely never seen something like that in Gundam before. Oh and Graham totally redeemed himself for being weird and messed-up during season two. :)

Other than that, A wakening of the Trailblazer hit all the right marks for me and is an absolutely awesome example of what alternate universe Gundam can truly be. I really hope we see something similar to it in the future. AGE is going well enough but it's not gripping me like SEED and 00 did. I'm not sure what the future of Gundam holds but hopefully Sunrise can "innovate" the old standards and keep providing us with quality entertainment... no matter what the fanbase whines about.

I can't really do favorite characters but I will do favorite MS and scenes.

Top 5 Favorite Mobile Suits from 00 The Movie
1. GNT-0000 00Qan[T]
2. GNX-903VW Brave (Commander)
3. GN-010 Gundam Zabanya
4. Small ELS or ELS Drone
5. GNW-100A Sakibure

Top 5 Favorite Scenes
1. The ELS's origins
2. The Final Battle (of course)
3. Allelujah and Marie/Soma playing tag with ELS machines
4. Setsuna and Feldt's"moment" (best I'm going to get out of this apparently)
5. Saji/King Arthur's GN Chair Throw

And Burke, you've just watched all of the current 21st century Gundam, what are you going to do next? :D


Lastly, I just wanted to make a quick comment about the Gundam 00 dub. I like pretty much all of the Gundam dubs that I've seen but this one... after seeing several parts of different episodes, I'm just not feeling it. I really don't like any of the voices attached to the characters with the exceptions of Lisa Ann Beley as a very sultry Sumeragi and Brad Swaile as Setsuna. And Lacus' voice (Chantal Strand) coming out of Feldt's mouth? That was just plain weird. And who the FRAK thought that Michael Dobson was good for the role of Sergei? That killed it all for me the moment I heard it.

Okay, I'm done. :)

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:17 pm 
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With GN particles, I think it's a case of you'll either love them or hate them. I think trying to pretend that they're really scientific is silly, since they're clearly the most far fetched variation of the 'magical Gundam super particle' yet seen. The thing for me is it's a matter of execution. Yes, it was a bit bewildering when the show went from having them be a source of a perpetual energy to also able to heal illness, connect minds and basically stop human mortality but I was pretty much swept up in 00 and its message by that point. For me, alot of my favourite moments are the parts of the franchise where we see the possibility in humanity. Stuff like everyone trying to push back Axis. The GN particles really embodied that and I was willing to accept their 'voodoo' as Andrei called it because the message was so pleasing. It's worth remembering that the boldest things we saw from GN Particles were led by GN Drives synced with a human mind, that literally the value Setsuna held in human life and human potential allowed them to go against common sense as one source once put it. It might not be the most realistic thing but the staff of 00 admitted from the start they weren't shooting for fully realistic.

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:03 am 
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Hey, Burke and the gang:

I saw the 00 Movie tonight finally. I haven't read the comments here so I'm just going to do a few quick, stream-of-consciousness reactions. Spoilers ahead! My overall reaction is about a B or B+. From an enjoyment standpoint, I think I liked it better than the tone of Season 2 as a whole.

Graham and Descartes Shaman were probably the highlights in terms of characters for me. It was a good curtain call for the Gundam Meisters, although I thought Setsuna didn't get as many cool moments as the others. The movie seemed to have a would-be Season 3 vibe in the way that it started slowly with a new take on human vs. human Armed Intervention. To that point, the political dealings and tone felt more in line with Season 1 than Season 2, which was nice. The action was hard to gauge. On the one hand, there was a lot of gorgeous action; on the other hand, the action relied a lot on repetitive CG and overwhelming spectacle to the point that even a hardcore mecha fan like myself found numbing at points. You'd get some of a glaze over your eyes, and then someone like Graham, Al/Hal, or Lockon would come in with some dialogue and pull off some feat that brouht it back to something close to genuine excitement.

The final battle was better than Season 2's, though not as well put together as Season 1. The Celestial Being joke movie within the movie was too jarring for me. The A.D. universe still struggles with its presentation of dialogue and relationships. I'm curious as to the connection between Mina and Nena, and if Mina knows about Nena. I wonder if these are the dialogues that Aeolia meant, or if the dialogues were more about humanity, or if they're more about aliens yet to come. The flower at the end seems to be some kind of representation of how Setsuna instinctively explaining understanding to the ELS? The ELS seem to have merged with Setsuna and other Innovators at the end, I guess. The epilogue is intriguing.

Mobile suit design was better than S2, IMO--loved the Braves. ELS were sort of like the JAM from the Yukikaze novels or OVAs. Anyway, at the end of the day, it's an intriguing conclusion with some fun to it, but it still strikes me that the whole A.D. universe was rushed and its emotional impact was thus greatly weakened. Not sure if I'll be able to watch this entire movie again or not, but I'll probably watch pieces. I'll see if I have more to share later.

EDIT: BTW, I'm also reading the first three of Bandai's English-translated 00 novels. Some interesting insights mixed in, and some fascinating episode order changes, but it's largely similar.

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:12 am 
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Personally, I thought Descartes Shaman was wasted potential. It appeared like he would have a major role to play in the movie, and then he went bye bye mid way through. Not much was divulged about him. All that I could tell was that he was more or less opposite to Setsuna personality wise. I wonder how he got to be an Innovator anyway.


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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:19 am 
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zerogradius wrote:
Personally, I thought Descartes Shaman was wasted potential. It appeared like he would have a major role to play in the movie, and then he went bye bye mid way through. Not much was divulged about him. All that I could tell was that he was more or less opposite to Setsuna personality wise. I wonder how he got to be an Innovator anyway.


Yes, I had that impression at one point. But it was a movie with a lot of ground to cover in a short time and he still managed to make an impression with the short time he had. He was one of those memorable incidental soldier-types that 00 was missing a lot of in its series that some other Gundams have. There were ways he could have been expanded on for sure, but that's par for the course with 00 characters.

I was surprised they bothered to go back and follow-up on Milena's crush on Tieria, and having the HRL's Kim present, or some others, like the AEU councilwoman it seemed like had been elevated, as well. Saji and Louise continue to be figureheads for common humanity, I guess. They never seem to play much of a role even in the movie. I thought the JNN cameraman died in S2 from the Momento Mori, so that surprised me that he was back. The scene where people are getting chased by vehicles reminds me of a sequence from Wings of Honnemise. Oh, and there are some Terminator references in here, too, with the ELS copying and liquefying and such. Billy's personality and confidence level seemed not to mesh with his character arc of Season 1 and 2--he was way too timid, and he wasn't very connected to Graham's end. I was surprised about the mix of tech in the movie, everyone borrowing off everyone else in MS design/weaponry. CB doesn't seem as special, if not for the 00Q. I didn't like the UC Newtype flashes for Innovators that were psychedelically colored.

The animation--a few notes. The very beginning looked akin to Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles, which was not very encouraging. After that, it was pretty good, mixing between Season 2 quality and movie/ova quality. It's hard to know if it matched some of the best of Unicorn or not (though Unicorn hasn't been consistent either)...

It was a strange movie...I kinda feel overwhelmed in some ways in putting it into words and digesting it all...but I felt like this time they at least knew what they wanted to get accomplished with it. 00 itself, when you add in this movie to the places it already went, comes off as a very strange mashup universe for Gundam. I think the cliff-notes philosophy it went off of in its attempt to condense things, and its retreat toward some UC concepts, will always make it seem like a collection of ideas rather than a whole series/universe to me. But regardless, I need to move on. I put a lot of hope into 00, and it didn't play out for me. As much as I want to forgive its shortcomings and embrace it, I can only go so far when I realize it didn't produce the same feelings as a G-Gundam or Gundam Wing, or even Gundam X as an AU. But it was an interesting detour that tried something, and I got some enjoyment even of the movie.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:03 am 
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The movie is pretty eye-candy, isn't it? ;)
And being exceptional in the Gundam genre to have aliens too, it didn't do much plot-wise or invoke conscious thought. :P And as mentioned, to cover such a massive cast, more than a few characters got the short end of the stick by being rushed through the motions.

We haven't discussed Shaman here as much; it's true. Of course Setsuna wasn't a tranquil person when he slowly changed, but one does have to wonder what kind of damage an Innovator more damaged than Shaman could do. The movie tries to wrap things up quickly, but I feel that a lot things are mentioned that would make following up on them more interesting than the flashy laser-tag sequences. Oh well, I assume no more of A.D. is forthcoming, though...

I don't regret the time spent on it, but it did leave me a bit lukewarm. But I've moaned enough of that, other people have it enjoyed it and it could've been worse.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:07 pm 
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The dialogues get discussed directly in the movie. Aeolia wanted to advance humanity so they'd be ready in all senses of the word to engage contact with the non-human life out in space. However, his whole plan to ensure this rushed human evolution and attracted the Quantum Brainwave sensetive ELS to the planet centuries before humanity had transitioned and awoken as Innovators. This left the world relying on Setsuna since there was no way to say to the ELS 'Sorry to have bothered you, the house is a mess, please come back later'. Peace for all humanity is part of it but as is revealed in the epilogue, Aeolia's main concern was that we'd take war into space with us.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:17 am 
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It's funny how Aeolia's plan to rid humanity of war ended up bringing one to Earth.

One of the main problems I have with Aeolia is that he seems to assume that only humans are warlike and that space is a peaceful place with aliens who just want to talk. What would have happened to a war-free humanity devoid of weapons if a warlike alien race like the Supervision Army encountered them. They would have been annihilated, regardless of whatever dialouge they present.


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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:36 am 
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HellCat said:
Quote:
However, his whole plan to ensure this rushed human evolution and attracted the Quantum Brainwave sensetive ELS to the planet centuries before humanity had transitioned and awoken as Innovators.

Is this canon, or just implied? Because this is the first I've heard that the ELS "arrived too early". It didn't seem to me that all of humanity would "awake", as you called it, as Innovators in the first place. On the other hand, if we accept that Aeolia's main plan was based on vague guesses that through incredible strokes of luck turned out for the best, then I can buy it. :) Without the quantum brainwaves that Aeolia triggered, the ELS wouldn't have even looked our way before. As zerogradius said, Aeolia's plan to rid humanity of war brought the first inter-planar war to our door. :P

Quote:
Peace for all humanity is part of it but as is revealed in the epilogue, Aeolia's main concern was that we'd take war into space with us.

This brings me to another point of Aeolia's perceived omniscience; his apparent hypothesis was that once humans were all Innovators (and would they actually be humans at all at that stage?), then we'd be more peaceful when venturing to space? Accepting that premise, becoming an Innovator still does not change the human state all that much, given that Descartes Shaman, an acknowledged Innovator, shouldn't be trusted to initiate first contact even with non-sentient, inanimate objects.

And this does not even take into account other possible aliens who might not have quantum brainwaves, and who'd like nothing better than to exterminate the vermin-like hairless apes stumbling across the galaxy, like zerogradius also pointed out. In which case Innovators would either a) try to dominate them with quantum brainwaves into a forced peace, or b) unleash the Innovator-warpotential, turning the Innovators into the Ur-Quan of AD. :D

Actually, one of the better parts of G'00 S1 was the fact that CB believed so blindly, with almost child-like fervor (fundamentalists, anyone?) in Aeolia's plan. That made them so morally ambiguous because their morals were utterly outsourced to a computer, of all things. Only when the Trinitys stepped out of line they did dare to question Veda (and by that extension, Aeolia's plan, but of course they soon figured out what the "real" plan had to be).

So yeah, Aeolia's plan was quite bad from an objective point of view, but because it was so vague it all worked out for humanity, I guess. ;)
Bad things happened = you didn't follow Aeolia's plan.
Good things happened = just as Aeolia planned.
My god, he's like Light in that sense; an absurdly complex plan cushioned in moral righteousness to force a change upon humanity. :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:14 pm 
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Just started Gundam 00 second season and then on to the movie. Wish me luck gundam fans, BTW anything I should watch out for Mr. Burke?

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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Antares wrote:
HellCat said:
Quote:
However, his whole plan to ensure this rushed human evolution and attracted the Quantum Brainwave sensetive ELS to the planet centuries before humanity had transitioned and awoken as Innovators.

Is this canon, or just implied? Because this is the first I've heard that the ELS "arrived too early". It didn't seem to me that all of humanity would "awake", as you called it, as Innovators in the first place. On the other hand, if we accept that Aeolia's main plan was based on vague guesses that through incredible strokes of luck turned out for the best, then I can buy it. :) Without the quantum brainwaves that Aeolia triggered, the ELS wouldn't have even looked our way before. As zerogradius said, Aeolia's plan to rid humanity of war brought the first inter-planar war to our door. :P


There's a scene set on the Ptolemy bridge where a discussion is had about the ELS, led by Tieria. There we're told that this is the start of the 'dialogues to come', that it's happening centuries before humanity is ready and despite that the reality means they begin as of this point. There's also a line about how the Quantum functions of the moon planted Veda are a big "Hey, look over here!" from one of the Federation military chiefs when discussing how to defend the Earth from the ELS and side materials further smoothe out that the ELS basically go from planet to planet attracted by species which have developed Quantum Brainwaves.

As for the specifics of awakening- as we see in the epilogue it's clear nearly half a century later that not all of humanity has become Innovators but it seems likely that over time regular humans breeding with Innovators would see basically all existing humans being one. After all, if the plan relied on things like multiple generations funding the development and construction of the Gundams, why not the Gundam generation being just one more step to the end result rather then the final destination?

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:00 am 
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zerogradius wrote:
One of the main problems I have with Aeolia is that he seems to assume that only humans are warlike and that space is a peaceful place with aliens who just want to talk....


True. Though Aeolia's focus was humanity. His dialogues in the series and movie do not even equate aliens. He was more focused about humanity being fragmented when they went out to outer space.

Quote:
This brings me to another point of Aeolia's perceived omniscience; his apparent hypothesis was that once humans were all Innovators (and would they actually be humans at all at that stage?), then we'd be more peaceful when venturing to space? Accepting that premise, becoming an Innovator still does not change the human state all that much, given that Descartes Shaman, an acknowledged Innovator, shouldn't be trusted to initiate first contact even with non-sentient, inanimate objects.


The fact that Celestial Being did what it did first (Pushing forth the construction of OE; War against conflict) implied Aeolia also did not believe Innovation alone can make people all peaceful minded.

Quote:
So yeah, Aeolia's plan was quite bad from an objective point of view, but because it was so vague it all worked out for humanity, I guess. ;)


One thing about why the plan was not very specific was people's focus and priorities are different and change in time. Alejandro in the series thought it was wrong for an old guy from the past dictating the world's present affairs. Aeolia, when he made Veda, knew it's not going to cut it if he's just going to think everything will fall into place if his own path of doing things was taken. (He chose to be an outcast and pretty much gave up on public when he was active, how can he even have the courage to lead humanity. What he have is a bit of hope...) People are different, that's why he made Veda to do what it does. Veda only have goals to uphold and does not care what path it takes to reach that goal. If people of the present have different approach on reaching the Plan's objectives, Aeolia does not have a hand on that and Veda will consider its possibilities.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:42 am 
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Quote:
Veda only have goals to uphold and does not care what path it takes to reach that goal.

Good point, although slightly a scary one since to Veda, it would follow, the ends would justify the means, but I guess we could allow for a quantum computer to have some more "humane" variables factored in. And at least Veda didn't get all Skynet-y on humanity, which would suggest that despite his other flaws, Aeolia at least knew how to write code that wouldn't turn against him (that was Alejandro's role :P ).

I thought, though, that the ending of war -plan was merely a stepping stone to bringing about Innovation in some way? When Ribbons hijacked the plan (or thought he did), was that actually within Aeolia's grand plan too? Was the creation of A-LAWS also intentional, and all judged necessary for the greater good? I realize these might all be rhetorical questions. :)

I suppose some of the controversy about the plan revolves around the predetermined, or predestined course of it. It takes a bunch of assumptions and starts to implemented. Perhaps the show, in fact, should be credited for showing Aeolia's plan for the faulty creation that it was (meaning that it wasn't really a plan as such, but a vision of humanity's future that Aeolia wanted to make happen regardless of the means or the process required).

About HellCat's comments about the ELS, I'll take his word for it. I can't recall the conversation myself. :)
One more comment though: couldn't you argue that the Innovators vs. Normals -relationship might deteriorate the way Naturals vs. Coordinators did in CE? Despite the militarily unifying counter-reaction to the A-LAWS, and part of that would be political too, there isn't really anything in the show aside from vague optimism that would suggest people would get along better now. Judging from past examples of human behavior, especially those who couldn't or wouldn't become Innovators might react violently if they felt they were victimized in the "new social order".

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:32 am 
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The sidestories basically state that this is exactly what happens in the gap between the end of the movie and the epilogue. As soon as the mistaken war with the ELS is stopped, humanity becomes divided on their views on Innovators and in particular some come to fear Hybrid Innovators (Innovators who willingly share their bodies with ELS) as brainwashed alien sleepers. A war breaks out led by rogue members of the military who also create artificial pseudo Innovators to pilot advanced GN weapons. All of this occurs and settles down in the half century Setsuna spends out in space.

To be honest, as much as I love 00 it's really one of those 'You couldn't have expanded on this?!' parts of the story. You'd have no idea any of this occurs based on just the movie alone.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:40 am 
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@basically all that HellCat just said:
!!!!!
They have all that going on in the sidestories?! My, oh my! This demolishes most of my earlier whining completely! I had no idea at all, since I don't usually investigate sidestories all that much. Clearly, in the case of G'00, I've seriously missed out.

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