Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

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LightningCount
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

Just a few quick bullet responses:

*The Saji/O-Raiser thing. Yes, he's a spotter, looking for Louise 9 times out of 10, and yes he has to flip some throttles to stabilize O-Raiser's beam sword...but at the end of the day, that's a very small task compared to Haro and his famous "O-Raiser Docking mode" line. It seems like that is where most of the separate action comes, and then it's just Setsuna doing fancy moves while Saji's along for the ride. It's fine enough, but the use of Saji and Louise are pretty small in the plot, after their tragedy was played up in Season 1 as a counterpoint to CB, which would be reflected in the future and magnified it seemed. Well, it was, but in a small way only slightly bigger that Mr. Bushido's crazed love affair. I don't know what should have happened, but Saji and Louise's "civilian" point of view never played out very well overall in the end, IMO. It always felt at odds and "me-too" with the flow of the plot, hampering it more often than not.

*The time skip with Lyle. Yes, I didn't need to see the romance of Lyle and Anew...but that's because it was a forced plot point to begin with put in there to force some "character development" and squeeze out some artificial tears. I just don't like the idea or its execution.

*Antares comment about the ending, I've already stated for various reasons, including citing Gundam X's ending, Gundam Wing's ending, and the real-world-focused setup of 00 as to why I take issue with it. I'll return to that when Burke gets there.

*This business of retreats. Yes, they happen in all media, Gundam or otherwise. Yes, they sometimes make sense. But do they always benefit the story, characters, or make it exciting? No. Could things be arranged differently to make them more interesting? Yes.

Just look at Zechs alone in Wing. His first five battles against the Gundam pilots, IIRC: 1.) He has a Leo with no chance of destroying Wing Gundam, but rather than retreat because he lost his Ares allies, he goes for it and manages to force a victory/stalemate, by locking the Leo around the Gundam and forcing it to crash. This sets up Zechs as a competent threat who will go the extra mile, as well as the water-based plot points to follow, and Heero's meeting with Relena with subsequent initiation into St. Gabriel.

2.) Wing Gundam meets Tallgeese in Siberia, the battle is pretty balanced, neither is willing to retreat, when we get the missile threat on the colony, forcing Heero to self-detonate, thus forcing the Gundams underground and forcing Zechs to set things in motion for a rematch as he reconsiders his place in OZ.

3.) Antarctica duel between Heero and Zechs, which Zechs effectively wins, beating the snot out of Heavyarms with a beam saber and ready to deliver the crushing blow, only to be stopped by the revelation of his sister and the coming of the OZ forces. But Zechs doesn't run, he attacks the forces head-on that interrupted his duel, intent on finding a new purpose in life after the duel and making his own way.

4.) That search leads Zechs to become Milliardo again, where he then meets Trowa and Heero in combat in space, IIRC, where he surrenders because he knows he has to follow his pacifist mission.

5.) Zechs takes Wing Zero vs. Heero's Epyon, where they fight each other intensely until both are driven insane by the Zero System, forcing them both to quit to keep their lives and then exchanging their machines based on the philosophies of their makers, which leads to Zechs fighting in vain and pushes him toward a search for purpose that gathers the attention of White Fang. Thus setting up the final battle later on between Heero and Zechs.

There's a flow to these encounters featuring mobile suits. It's all moving the plot around in multiple facets and creating these interesting encounters, instead of 00, which usually bashes machines together, and then repels them as quickly as possible like magnets so they can do it again at a later date, to similar execution and results. There's not as much variety in choreography of scenario in how battles play out. It lacks an intensity of emotion. 00 has some moments, but on the whole, it ends things before they can be effective in multiple ways that serve both the plot and the excitement of the viewer. too often its hollow, repetitive, and haphazard.

Just picking Graham, without going into Ali and others (which have similar problems more often than not)...what do his battles give us? It gives us him becoming Mr. Bushido, attached to Setsuna whom he didn't fight any more than the Trinities or Neil, really, and then constantly seeking upgrades to Flags/Masaraos/etc, just so he can be a character of no impact. (But just to touch on Ali for a moment, if he loves fighting so much, there's no reason for him to retreat in the Arche Gundam earlier in the season. Zechs in Epyon would take on THE WHOLE LOT of Gundams and whatever else gets in his way--we're talking commitment and getting the job done. Ribbons only needs to Twin Drives, not the whole of 00; there's no reason for Ali to not give it his all and come across as tougher than he ultimately proves to be. Even if some of it made sense, it made for boring and predictable encounters too often. There could at least be more Ming, Daryl, Zenin moments in 00, which like the Walkers, Bundts, Nanakis, Noin's students, and others left some personal touches to battles in battles that went ALL THE WAY until one side was destroyed beyond fighting. But I digress.

EDIT: One thing I just wanted to make clear. Look at the scenarios I mentioned with Wing and Zechs, and look how there is this continual intertwining of characters that pays off, and how it gradually escalates, so that you know the encounters are going to blossom into a big, climatic, meaningful duel later on. With Graham, the fights are always around the same caliber, and sometimes later fights are weaker that previous fights. There's a certain care to rivalries and battles that 00 doesn't adhere to, which makes for a repetitive feeling (that just so happens to be saved by high-quality animation). :?
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

At last, I finished watching Season 2 Episodes 21 thru 25 last night. I have to confess that synopsizing in detail is quite a chore, especially after doing this for 3 full-length shows over the last several weeks. So instead, I'm just going to do a general round-up of my thoughts and feelings on the wrap-up and the series overall, and touch on specific characters and items. Some stream of consciousness for you folks, if you will. "Wall of Text" warning goes here. :P

So, overall, I'm VERY happy with how 00 turned out, for the most part. It's a fresh and engaging new world, a different yet familiar kind of setting and feel, more driven by the plot and the need to get from Point A to Point B, which is a valid storytelling style, and I think it worked for this series. Most of the characters were interesting and entertaining, though not as emotionally engaging as Seed/Destiny or many other previous Gundam productions. However, I found the series ending to be very emotionally satisfying and moving (yes, I cried - what can I say, I'm a crier. :P ).

Unlike Seed and Destiny, which I recently viewed, with their sudden, abrupt endings that needed some add-on material later to give a more satisfying conclusion, the 00 creators had the good sense to actually bring the story to a good ending in the series proper, giving a nice epilogue for most of the characters and story threads, though obviously giving little hints of things to come. The world HAS changed, and hopefully for the better this time. It's going to take hard work, and mistakes may be made... but our heroes in Celestial Being will be out there, just in case they're needed again. Things change, and life goes on. One chapter closes, and the door is wide open for the next one - even though I feel like the 00 TV series doesn't "require" a sequel, for the most part. Sure, there are some little things dangled like tiny carrots to leave us yearning for more, but even if they didn't give us a 00 movie (which I'll be watching tonight and will review here in this thread tomorrow), if this TV series was all we'd gotten of the AD-verse, I'd be happy and satisfied.

I do agree with a lot of you folks that the pacing of the series seems rushed in a lot of places, particularly in S2. But I don't think it's TOO badly rushed, considering the limited amount of time the writers had to work with, I think they did pretty well. Some character development, some particular battles and conversations, I'd have love to have seen explored or expanded more (like in the last several episodes, the battle to take out Memento Mori 2), and some characters pretty much got the shaft, development-wise (Graham being the most glaring example, I think). I think if both seasons had had a LITTLE more time, maybe an extra 3-4 episodes, the pacing could've been fleshed out a bit and some things given some room to grow. As it is, though... I rather enjoyed the progression of events over both seasons. Except for maybe a little bit in the early to mid 1st season, the show never felt "slow" at all, but it didn't feel "breakneck speed" fast, either. Rushed a bit, sure, but not terribly so.

Okay, let's talk about the characters. Our lead hero, Setsuna, I think is a good, strong lead. He starts off as the cold, mysterious soldier, a victim of the terrible circumstances of his youth, shaped into what could've been a monster, had he not had a fateful encounter with the 0 Gundam. Along the way, he regains some of his humanity back, becoming less trapped in his horrific past and more concerned with wanting to create a better future. He evolves from... I don't know if anti-hero is the right term to describe him at the beginning, maybe "dark" hero... to a real hero, fighting the good fight for all the RIGHT reasons, in the end. Though I don't know if he'd have come to the same place if it weren't for his encounters with Marina Ismail. She had a profound effect on him, and if she weren't there, it's possible he might've turned out to be another Ali al-Saachez, a tool or puppet for Ribbons, since Ribbons is the one who arranged for Setsuna to become a Gundam Meister. I like Setsuna, or rather, I like the man he became.

Neil Dylandy and Lyle Dylandy, the two men to bear the code-name Lockon Stratos... I think they're one of the least-offensive uses of the "replacement twin" tropes I've seen. Neil was an awesome character, easily my favorite in season 1, the good natured "big brother" of the group, who had his troubled past like the rest of them, but didn't let it get in the way of stepping up to be a hero. Sure, he threw his life away for petty revenge - and failed, at that - but he had one of the most memorable and moving hero deaths in all of Gundamdom. His dying monologue is full of such a bittersweet mixture of love and pain and regret, and I still miss him, as does the rest of the cast. His influence lives in in the other members of CB right up to the end.

Lyle, on the other hand, may have the same voice and the same face, but he's definitely his own man. I was happy to see the development of his character, showing that he wasn't JUST "the replacement Lockon, with his own perks and flaws. I do feel his relationship with Anew Returner was a little rushed and could've used some more fleshing out, particularly for her character, but his reaction to her death felt genuine. And in the end, when he had the chance to kill Ali in cold blood to avenge his family, he took the moral high road - but then was forced to kill him anyway in self-defense. I was in tears when he visited his family's graves in the epilogue, and even more so when I saw he put a headstone for Anew there next to them. Lockon Neil was awesome and unforgettable. Lyle was a little rougher around the edges, but in the end, he was a good guy. I also like that Lyle's cut his ties to Katharon to totally devote himself to being a Gundam Meister in the end.

Allelujah Haptism, and his violent alter-ego personality Hallelujah... a very fascinating character, with what I think is the most tragic background of the Gundam Meisters, leaving him, like his fellow Meisters, seriously damaged goods who's trying to deal with his past, but fighting for a future. Unlike Setsuna, Neil or Lyle, Allelujah's past, present AND future are tied to Marie Parcafy/Soma Peries, his last living link to his horrific existence in the Super Soldier lab as a young boy, who made a friend and deep bond with Marie, only to lose her for years, and then find her again, with a different personality as an enemy on the battlefield. For the relationship between Allelujah and Marie/Soma, maybe they are "lovers" in a sense, but I honestly don't feel any romance between them. Their "love" and need for each other comes from their shared painful past, and clinging to each other for comfort and some hint of peace. In their nightmarish childhoods, all they had to hold on to was each other, and even though they're adults now, I think emotionally they'll always be those two traumatized, frightened children holding desparately onto each other as the one good thing in their lives, surrounded by a horrifying and messed up world. In the epilogue, we see them travelling together, talking about the future, and their search for answers for meaning in their lives, now that their lives are their own, no longer needing to be trapped by their past. And while, as an atheist, I wholly disagree with their searching for such answers in a religious temple or church or whatever they were going to, at least they're taking the journey together, making the effort, looking for SOMETHING. I hope they find something good they can be at peace with. :)

As for Soma/Marie, I enjoyed her character as well, though we saw more of Soma than we did Marie. I'd have loved to have seen more of Marie and Allelujah's bonding as children, seeing what grew between them, rather than taking it for granted and just having it explained in some expositional dialogue and short flashbacks. I think it's interesting to compare and contrast the two personalities of Soma and Marie with the two personalities of Allelujah and Hallelujah. Soma/Marie is a much more stable and "normal" person in both personalities, Marie being the warm and sweet girl and childhood friend of Allelujah, Soma being the capable and dedicated soldier, who starts of believing she is only a killing machine, but finds her humanity, and the love of a father figure in Sergei Smirnov. The "merging", so to speak, of Soma and Marie's personalities makes some sense to me.

Allelujah and Hallelujah, on the other hand, are quite the Jeckyl & Hyde, Allelujah being the broken nice kid who's desparately trying to do something good and escape the sins of his past, while Hallelujah is just a psycho who will kill anyone and do anything to surive. Their "merging" at the end of Season 1 felt a bit comic book-ishly convenient for drama's and plot's sake, but it didn't bother me TOO much. I do feel like Allelujah's "return" a couple of times late in S2 was more gratuitous, and while it was tied to the quantum brainwaves caused by the 00 Raiser's Twin Drive Trans-Am'ing, I felt like this was something that should've been explored in more detail, but wasn't. I really would have liked to have seen more on the quantum brainwave thing and its connections (if any) between the Innovators and Super Soldiers. It feels like we should've learned more about this whole point.

Whew! Yeah, I had lots to say about our Super Soldiers. Moving to to Tieria Erde! I agree with a lot of you that Tieria had the most in depth and fascinating character growth and development over the whole series. He went from being the cold and calculating and judgmental is-he-an-android, willing to pull guns on his fellow Gundam Meisters when he questioned their loyalties, to developing humanity, rejecting any would-be loyalty to his fellow Innovators and coming to care about humanity and his teammates. In the end, he's replaced Ribbons in running/being part of Veda, but unlike Ribbons, who saw himself as a god who wanted to rule and judge and punish humanity at his whim, looking down on the "inferior species," I think Tieria's self-found humanity and time among humans will serve him well as he watches over humanity. I don't think he'll be arrogant enough to "guide" humanity, but I'm sure he'll be there to GUARD it, and with Veda and the cloaked colony ship under his control, he'll be there for humanity, when it's time to need those things. As Tieria changed and evolved, so did my opinion of him. I started off the series truly disliking him, and not trusting him much at all, to enjoying his character and cheering him on as the hero he came to be. :)

Sumeragi Lee Noriega aka Leesa Kujo.... oh be still, my heart! :D Aside from being the sexiest and smartest Gundam ship captain ever (sorry, Murrue Ramius, but trust me, you're a darned close 2nd :P ), she had a very believable backstory and a very believable personality to go with it. Some tragedy happened, that she was involved with, and though it wasn't her fault, she carried so much guilt over it, losing herself in drinking, using a guy who loved her as an at-her-convenience emotional pillow and yet, somehow (and with a little help from her friends) finding herself on a path to stop war and do the right thing, putting her talents to good use. I just wanted to hug her tight and let her know that things'll be alright. Okay, okay, I wanted to hug her for other reasons, too, but still, she's a broken character with some major self-confidence issues. She needs a little love in her life. :P My only lingering question is... has she finally made peace with her guilt? Has her work with CB given her a real purpose so she can let go of the past? Or is she still just using her work with CB to escape from it, and not deal with it? Alcoholism (and her other psychological baggage) are things you don't "cure," they're things you have to keep under control and handle, always. I hope she ends up handling them well.

As for Billy... I was never quite sure what to think of him. He seemed like a nice guy, a good pal for Graham Aker, with a real talent for mobile suit design and such. And his on-and-off again relationship with Sumeragi/Kujo was believable, though his reaction to learning she was with CB was a little... excessive. He went totally overboard, intending to get revenge for being used and lied to and rejected, up to and including taking up arms against his ex. But then, considering the kind of family he comes from, I guess this shouldn't be surprising. Militarism and that whole bushido thing tends to be excessively insane.

Speaking of bushido... Graham Aker. One of the more interesting, and credible, rival pilots/threats in S1... who got turned into a caricature in S2. I think what happened to his character is my single biggest complaint about the series overall. He kept being built up to be this major threat, but spent most of S2 sitting on the sidelines, and when he did show up, he was scary powerful - until some circumstance changed to make him tuck tail and run. Compare this to his truly impressive butt-kicking in S1, and it's just sad what happened to his character. He could've been made truly compelling, and given me a reason to cheer for him in S2 as I cheered for him in S1... instead he became this weird, whacko joke. However, we do see him poke his head into Billy's office in the epilogue... did he learn ANYTHING from Setsuna's words and naked Newtype communion thingie with him in their last fight? Somehow, I don't think so. But then, I may be pleasantly surprised when I watch the movie this evening. *shrug*

I absolutely loved and adored Feldt! She started as this odd and quirky quiet, distant girl channeling Ruri from Nadesico, to developing this sweet and unrequited crush on Lockon Neil, to becoming what I felt one of the real hearts and centers of the "family" that is the Ptolemy crew and Gundam Meisters. My only complaint is that, aside from her reacting to Soma's presence and Lockon Lyle's crude "seduction," she didn't really have any more development through S2. The only other thing, and it's leaving me wondering "huh?" is near the end, when she gives that flower to Setsuna, then asks if Marina would be upset by that. Has she developed a little crush on Setsuna now? Or was she giving him the flower as a symbol and sort of cheering-on, seeing as everyone's hopes were riding on Setsuna's shoulders, that his new abilities and that of the 00 Raiser were the keys to helping all of them win the day and save the world? I'm curious to know what's going on in her head with this strange, but sweet little bit. :)

The other Ptolemy crew were enjoyable characters as well. Ian was a hoot, with his grizzled, down-to-earth, everyman personality, and his amusing quirks too, particularly when we meet his wife Linda, adorably sexy and 25 years his junior. :P Their daughter Miliena was okay, I guess, a little TOO bubbly and cute for my taste, but I guess she did okay, as a seat-warming replacement for the late, lamented Christina, who I did enjoy more. Lasse seemed like a good, capable and thoughtful guy and I'd have liked to have learned more about him. Lichty's death scene with Christina was great, but sadly, that's about the only development he got.

Princess Marina Ismail... I have mixed feelings about her. I love that she was essentially the ideological and emotional touchstone and sounding board for Setsuna and his character growth through the series. She was consistently fundamentalist in her "total pacifism" stance, and sadly, this meant she didn't change or grow at all as a character, I feel. She was very ineffective as a head of state, being stuck in a job she didn't want running a failing, war-torn country under siege from inside and out, and ended up losing it all anyway. I think she was much more in her element as a caretaker and mother-figure, taking care of the Katharon war orphan kids, being a musician, using her talents to bring a message of peace to the world. However, I totally don't buy that most of the world would suddenly change its ways and become a hand-holding, kumbaya-singing happy place just 'cause they heard a nice song. If that could happen, the Beatles would've changed the whole world decades ago. This plot point was a REAAAAAL big stretch for me, but for its emotional place in the story, I get it and can even appreciate it, despite its unbelievability. Anyway, back to Marina... so I liked her as a person, though her stance on not wanting to pick up a gun to defend innocents was a bit crazy-making to me. Essentially, her purpose was to help Setsuna grow, and I feel like we got cheated out of some potential growth for her, as well. In the epilogue, she's back to being head of state of the rebuilt Azadistan... question is, will she do a decent job now, without war and terrorism plaguing her every day and decision?

Shrin and Klaus were good enough characters for the roles they filled, but in the end, not too interesting. Well, Shirin was a bit interesting in her verbal fencing with Marina, and I'm glad Shirin had the guts to stand up for what she believed in, as much as Marina did. And Shirin looked much prettier with longer hair in S2. :)

Sergei Smirnov, easily one of the best characters in the series. A capable and devoted soldier, and while I wholly disagree with his profession, his heart was in the right place, and he did have a conscience and went with it when he had to. He made hard decisions, and even made mistakes, and he lived with the burden and guilt of those decisions in a very believable way. And his role as father-figure for Soma Peries felt warm and genuine, and it's truly tragic that he had such a falling out with his son Andrei, and ended up dying as Andrei's hands. I was really sad to see Sergei go.

Andrei... I hated this guy. Yeah, I feel sorry for him, that his father didn't give him the love and attention he needed at the time after he lost his mother. I guess it shouldn't be too surprising that he grew up to be a jerk, but oh boy, that patricide is really taking the "daddy issues" thing a bit too far. And his little crush on Louise Halevy was just weird and creepy. I thought he'd died in one of the final battles (another big complaint of mine in this series - when MSs blow up, shouldn't the pilots be dead? Seems to be a completely unreliable element in this series), but he shows up in the epilogue at a military-run humanitarian aid/refugee camp, vowing to be the kind of soldier his parents were. *sigh* Whatever, jerk. He gets no sympathy from me at all.

Saji Crossroad and Louise Levy... the OTHER couple that could've ended in utter tragedy, but thankfully, didn't. But good gravy, did these two have a hard road getting to their happily every after! They started off as civilian bystanders, watching the events in the world unfold from a distance, before being inevitably dragged into them purely by chance, sending them down a very painful road. I seriously expected one or both of these characters to die, and I'm pleasantly surprised that they didn't. I hope they do find a nice, quiet life together as they both originally wanted. They do sound quite hopeful in the epilogue, talking about the lives and where the world's going. It made me smile.

Kati Mannequin and Patrick Colasour... this has simply got to be one of the most UNLIKELY couples ever in Gundamdom. Kati makes my heart go all pitter-patter with her strong, dominant attitude and stern, sexy schoolmarm looks, and it did the same for Patrick. I think she was a fantastic and respectable rival/foil for Sumeragi/Kujo, and I was sooooo pleased to see her take charge of the anti-A-LAWS faction of the Fed military and give our heroes in CB a helping hand in the final battles. As for Patrick, he started off as frankly annoying, but over time, his clownish antics and boyish attitude became a charming silliness, both for Kati and for me as a viewer. And in the epilogue THEY GET MARRIED!!! Woo-hoo! "Colasour the Ridiculously Lucky," indeed! :D

And now, Sunrise, I demand a spin-off! I want an anime comedy series, following the Odd Couple-ish domestic antics of Kati and Patrick! *starts a petition* :P

Wang Liu Mei, and her mostly-useless older brother/bodyguard Hong Long... Wang herself was a twisted girl, playing all sides against each other for her own ends. I think I was indifferent about her, though, she just seemed like a very one-note character who was only there to play a role in the plot. The "big reveal" about her motivations at the end just didn't grab me, feeling like too little, too late. If her whining about not having control over her own life was supposed to make me empathize or sympathize with her, it didn't work. Hong Long was unimportant, both as a character and in contribution to the plot.

Nena Trinity and her brothers Johann and Michael, I also have mixed feelings about. Nena's just a messed up psycho, but considering how she acted, and how long she was around to be a nemesis for, well, pretty much EVERYONE, I thought she was a FUN psycho. Johann and Michael, on the other hand, I never felt like I really got to know. They were patsies, they did their part, they were killed off. Pretty uninteresting, emotionally I feel them same for the two brothers as I did for the Druggies in Seed and the Extendeds (minus Stella) in Destiny. But the brothers didn't feel feel very threatening and dangerous.

Alejandro Corner is a good, slimy villain, lots of good bwa-ha-ha mustache-twirling moments, who had his moment in the villain spotlight, then got stabbed in the back by Ribbons Almark. I thought Alejandro was entertaining and "played his part well," as Ribbons would say. I just would have liked some more background on him and his family's part/rivalry with Aeolia Schenberg and The Plan(tm). And I'm still pretty miffed that the whole Observers thing was dropped completely following S1. I want answers!

Homer Katagiri, I have little to say about, except that I felt both annoyance and satisfaction at seeing him bled to death from harikari'ing himself in the epilogue. Good riddance, mass murderer.

And lastly, the Innovators. Or Innovades. Or whatever. Ribbons Almark was a great villain, even if he was a bit two-dimensional in his "I am a god/superior being and I will rule the world and guide humanity by my vision whether you like it or not" schtick. What surprises me most about the Innovators, though, is how human they really were, in their arrogance. They may have had android bodies and brains, but their personalities and motives were hardly machine-like. Really, Ribbons was pretty much like any other diabolical human ruler in history. However, his creepiness was accentuated with his having the voice of Amuro Ray, and at the end, his casual attempted killing of Regene.

Regene was the only other Innovator character who was even remotely interesting. I still have to wonder what the source of his motivation was, in trying to hijack The Plan(tm) for her own ends and betraying Ribbons. I suspect it has to do with the shared DNA/model type with Tieria, who himself was becoming more human as time went on. It's stated that Innovators of the same model/type share telepathic links, and I wonder if maybe something "subconsciously" from Tieria was affecting Regene. Either way, I did find her trying to sabotage Ribbons' plans and even try to kill him amusing.

The rest of the Innovators/Innovades I really could care less about. I finally managed to memorize 2 or 3 of their names, but casually, I still can't tell them apart. They're just cookie-cutter villains, and wholly uninteresting. Given more screen time to get to know them better, I might have appreciated them more, but otherwise, they were only there to fight and kill and die.

The final battles of the series were fun and exciting and dramatic. I especially loved seeing the Exia back in action, fighting against not-Amuro Ray in the not-RX-78 0 Gundam. :D The swarm of Gagas pummelling the Ptolemaios was pretty cool, though it completely smacked of the Sentinels swarming Zion in Matrix Revolutions. The Reborns Gundam (are we sure that this wasn't acutally supposed to be Ribbons' Gundam?) was a pretty good design, but not particularly interesting, though its fight against 00 was fantastic.

One thing I halfway expected during the final battle(s), but didn't see, was how wide the effect of the 00 Raiser's Trans-Aming GN field would be. Covering the whole battlefield around the Innovators' mothership to do the whole naked Newtype spiritual communion thing, and let everyone hear everyone else's thoughts, was great for the immediate story/battle. But in order to "change the world," I seriously expected Setsuna's "light of his heart" effect to literally spread out and cover the whole Earth sphere, creating this effect for the entire human race, and thus TRULY opening the door that would lead to the more peaceful world we see the beginnings of in the epilogue. But I guess that would've been the easy way out, and what they did instead has left humanity still fending for itself to sort out its own problems - which I have to admire, even if my hope, and the hopes of the characters, may be all for nothing if humanity goes back to its old ways.

So the "dialogues to come" are in relation to potential future contact between humanity and extraterrestrial beings (perhaps the TRUE meaning of "Celestial Being"?) as humanity expands into space. The very last thing we see, at the end of the finale's credits, is a shot of Jupiter with the caption: "The Childhood of Mankind Ends." Sweet, a nod to Arthur C. Clarke's 2001 and Childhood's End! Obviously a setup for the movie... I guess we're gonna get that alien contact sooner than expected! :D

In summary, I loved 00. I think it's a fantastic series, despite its flaws. It's unavoidable to compare it to SEED and Destiny, since I just watched them in the last few weeks as well. But I really feel they're very different animals, though 00 feels worthy of the Gundam name and it's a great addition to the franchise. I'm eager to watch the movie later this evening, and I'll be back tomorrow to talk about that!

Oh, and just a quick addendum: the 2nd season SD Character Theater short was just... bizarre. I didn't think it was all that funny. What were they smoking when they came up with that? :)
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

It's late and I don't want to do a full write up just now, but I had a revelation concerning Graham in season 2 and now that you're going to watch the movie, I can run it by you.

I like FeldtxSetsuna.

And I continue to stand by my observation that 00 is the best Gundam to come out of 2000-2009. Now I say that without having seen Stargazer or MS Igloo and Igloo 2 (not really too hot on Nazis in Space and Federation Shinigami) but I'm willing to bet that I'll maintain that attitude. We'll see. Yeah 00 has some flaws but so does all the other Gundam series, so I'm sticking to this.

Thank you, goodnight.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

Burke, I mostly want to get to the ending later in this post, but I'll start with some reaction-responses:
Burke Rukes wrote:Lyle...And in the end, when he had the chance to kill Ali in cold blood to avenge his family, he took the moral high road - but then was forced to kill him anyway in self-defense.
I'm just not sure if I felt this was a fitting end to Saachez. It was fine, but given what Neil did to Saachez already, it feels like we're just kind of/sort of getting revenge for the family here. Tieria and Setsuna were the ones who had a much bigger beef with Saachez.
Burke Rukes wrote:Allelujah's past, present AND future are tied to Marie Parcafy/Soma Peries
The story of these two seemed to stall out and get kind of by-rote once they had their island adventure. I don't know, I just felt like they weren't as involved in the series after that point and that the writers struggled to figure out what to do with them.
Burke Rukes wrote:As for Billy... I was never quite sure what to think of him. He seemed like a nice guy, a good pal for Graham Aker, with a real talent for mobile suit design and such. And his on-and-off again relationship with Sumeragi/Kujo was believable, though his reaction to learning she was with CB was a little... excessive. He went totally overboard, intending to get revenge for being used and lied to and rejected, up to and including taking up arms against his ex. But then, considering the kind of family he comes from, I guess this shouldn't be surprising. Militarism and that whole bushido thing tends to be excessively insane.
Hmm. You do shed some light on this here, personality-wise. I found this revenge thing of Billy's went over the top and cheated his character, as he was rather interesting with his interactions with Kujo and such in Season 1. (As an aside, didn't they use automatons AGAIN when he came after her?--getting the most use out of CG assets, I guess) The fact that Sumeragi got Billy and Kati as her story's main thrust, one a former rival who turns good, another a bitter lover, just didn't do much exciting for Sumeragi in my opinion compared to her presentation in Season 1. (IE: Her metal sparring with Sergei was a lot more interesting, IMO).
Burke Rukes wrote:Speaking of bushido... Graham Aker. One of the more interesting, and credible, rival pilots/threats in S1... who got turned into a caricature in S2. I think what happened to his character is my single biggest complaint about the series overall. He kept being built up to be this major threat, but spent most of S2 sitting on the sidelines, and when he did show up, he was scary powerful - until some circumstance changed to make him tuck tail and run. Compare this to his truly impressive butt-kicking in S1, and it's just sad what happened to his character. He could've been made truly compelling, and given me a reason to cheer for him in S2 as I cheered for him in S1... instead he became this weird, whacko joke. However, we do see him poke his head into Billy's office in the epilogue... did he learn ANYTHING from Setsuna's words and naked Newtype communion thingie with him in their last fight? Somehow, I don't think so. But then, I may be pleasantly surprised when I watch the movie this evening. *shrug*
Yeah, tons of potential with this guy. And his fights, as short as they are, have more of the passion and energy I was looking for in 00. The late reveal on his waterfall training with Homer was too little too late, but it was good to see it added and that he didn't kill himself according to his namesake. Based on the epilogue with Billy, I think he's been changed back to his old self--still arrogant and superstitious, but not bonkers. Honestly, I look forward to seeing his presentation in the movie almost more than anything.
Burke Rukes wrote:I absolutely loved and adored Feldt! The only other thing, and it's leaving me wondering "huh?" is near the end, when she gives that flower to Setsuna, then asks if Marina would be upset by that. Has she developed a little crush on Setsuna now? Or was she giving him the flower as a symbol and sort of cheering-on, seeing as everyone's hopes were riding on Setsuna's shoulders, that his new abilities and that of the 00 Raiser were the keys to helping all of them win the day and save the world? I'm curious to know what's going on in her head with this strange, but sweet little bit. :)
Would have liked a little more for her to do, maybe even following up on her familial Meister role, but not a bad character. However, that piece with the sudden crush on Setsuna and the flower felt like another thing crammed in to create some emotion out of the blue. People cried fowl on Shinn and Lunamaria (even though I was mostly cool with it), so they should cry foul on this just the same here, I would think.
Burke Rukes wrote:Lasse seemed like a good, capable and thoughtful guy and I'd have liked to have learned more about him.
Goodness, how did you like the tension with his 0 Gundam use and poisoning-death completely repealed by the healing power of 00? That was too much for me. Combined with Setsuna being cured and Louise coming back from the dead along with Lasse...I just didn't buy it. They were playing fast and loose with death and making plot points of tension lose their consequences.
Burke Rukes wrote:Andrei... I hated this guy...I thought he'd died in one of the final battles (another big complaint of mine in this series - when MSs blow up, shouldn't the pilots be dead? Seems to be a completely unreliable element in this series
Yeah, Andrei got too much screen time for being such a one-note angst character. (His Newtype talk with Marie near the end solidified the theme, at least). But to your point, there are, again, A LOT of people coming back from the dead in one fashion or another (digitally, through GN magic, or by miracle of cockpit holding together in explosion) in this series. Yet SEED and Destiny get the most grief for it. Not saying CE sometimes plays it up more dramatically, but the fact that 00 does it and gets a free pass bugs me. Off the top of my head: Ribbons (clone shot), Regene, Tieria, Patrick, Louise, Lasse, Andrei...and the other Meisters are kinda questionable too...(Oh, and Wang and Hong got blown up by Nena, just to come back for one more episode/scene? And then die again?)
Burke Rukes wrote:Saji and Louise...
As I said earlier, their "civilian" point of view and how it played out in Season 2 was too haphazard and on the fringe of the plot to make me really care. This wasn't like 0080's civilian look with Al beside Chris and Bernie, or anything. Saji and Louise, connected to the marginalized Nena and Wang, come up feeling like afterthoughts, as well. It's not terrible, but I don't think they add a lot to the plot, and that the time they fill up could have been used for other things maybe.
Burke Rukes wrote:Wang Liu Mei, and her mostly-useless older brother/bodyguard Hong Long... Wang herself was a twisted girl, playing all sides against each other for her own ends. I think I was indifferent about her, though, she just seemed like a very one-note character who was only there to play a role in the plot. The "big reveal" about her motivations at the end just didn't grab me, feeling like too little, too late. If her whining about not having control over her own life was supposed to make me empathize or sympathize with her, it didn't work. Hong Long was unimportant, both as a character and in contribution to the plot.
Too little, too late, and you sentiment regarding that fits with my thoughts about a lot of characters and plot points. They just don't hit on time usually for maximum impact. I did like Wang finally trying to some on-foot active spy stuff at the end with Setsuna...but too little too late. And Nena's convenient placement to get killed by Louise, they're just checking off plot points. Nena wasn't much better than her brothers, and didn't get to do much more other than providing a key tip every now and then (some of it off-camera) as a deus ex-machina to move the story alone.
Burke Rukes wrote:Alejandro Corner is a good, slimy villain, lots of good bwa-ha-ha mustache-twirling moments, who had his moment in the villain spotlight, then got stabbed in the back by Ribbons Almark. I thought Alejandro was entertaining and "played his part well," as Ribbons would say. I just would have liked some more background on him and his family's part/rivalry with Aeolia Schenberg and The Plan(tm). And I'm still pretty miffed that the whole Observers thing was dropped completely following S1. I want answers!
Liked him too, as well as the Observers, but it's too late to make these plot points anything more than they were after Season 2's numerous changes (more toward Zeta/Tomino tone).
Burke Rukes wrote:And lastly, the Innovators. Or Innovades. Or whatever. Ribbons Almark was a great villain, even if he was a bit two-dimensional in his "I am a god/superior being and I will rule the world and guide humanity by my vision whether you like it or not" schtick....The final battles of the series were fun and exciting and dramatic. I especially loved seeing the Exia back in action, fighting against not-Amuro Ray in the not-RX-78 0 Gundam.
No, we are INNOVADES! Ha! Like that last-minute plot twist clarification? :P Sorta goofy after the other term was used the whole time. I just never took Ribbons seriously. He was this petulant man-child with a god complex. Not the villain I want in a series talking about the ins and outs of a complex sci-fi world. And you know, that last battle, while flashy, just lacked something. Ribbons and Setsuna are connected thematically more than viscerally, which makes their rivalry and sudden battle-to-end-all-battles kind of hollow. For that matter, the set pieces of the final battle weren't as engaging as Break Pillar or Memento Mori 1. Moreover, the Season 1 desert battle and final fight was a little more tense. :? But the worst offense is the swapping of Gundams AND GN drives in the middle of a battle so that Setsuna can slay his "idol" 0 Gundam with Exia, and regain his freedom and assume the new role of humanity's future. WAYYYY too heavy-handed and rushed. That just put the nail on the final battle for me as being compelling. (Though there was some good animation and I recall Hal and Lyle getting to do some REALLY GREAT moves with good emotional energy). And 0 Gundam was too much fan-service there besides. I could take or leave the Gagas...they seemed a little boring. Veda reminded me of DOME from Gundam X a little bit.
Burke Rukes wrote:One thing I halfway expected during the final battle(s), but didn't see, was how wide the effect of the 00 Raiser's Trans-Aming GN field would be. Covering the whole battlefield around the Innovators' mothership to do the whole naked Newtype spiritual communion thing, and let everyone hear everyone else's thoughts, was great for the immediate story/battle. But in order to "change the world," I seriously expected Setsuna's "light of his heart" effect to literally spread out and cover the whole Earth sphere, creating this effect for the entire human race, and thus TRULY opening the door that would lead to the more peaceful world we see the beginnings of in the epilogue. But I guess that would've been the easy way out, and what they did instead has left humanity still fending for itself to sort out its own problems - which I have to admire, even if my hope, and the hopes of the characters, may be all for nothing if humanity goes back to its old ways.
I said this earlier, but it was under spoiler tags. Now you can read it, though:

*The Innovator vs. Innovade concept was a plot point I never particularly liked, because it hearkened back to the out-of-universe Newtypes, only with the kick-start being these mutating particles. The idea of Innovades as artificial constructs trying to move the world in a direction of manufactured evolution or peace, that I was more comfortable with. But then Setsuna said we all have to change, and it was like someone turned on the song, "Man in the Mirror." Yes, humanity has to "make that change" Setsuna, but they'll do it of their own will, by taking a good look at themselves, not a mecha's sparkly lights. The quantum brainwaves thing, humans evolving and understand one another, maybe that can come to pass through evolution, but again, not by a magic particle in my mind. Plus, the director's early interviews said he wasn't going force answers/solutions on us.

Maybe it works with the upcoming alien arc in the Movie to communicate/combat them, but from the sci-fi real-robot-ish genre 00 was flirting with, the GN abilities crossed the line a bit for me (especially with the tone the series started with). It was an supernatural solution to the follies (and injuries) of humanity--that war could be stopped through this Dr. Seuss' Sneetches putting stars on. It may have been a presentation/plotting/pacing thing more than anything, though. In another anime--something more like RahXephon--I might have accepted it or enjoyed it better. They were pretty melodramatic killing Lasse off with sickness and getting you worried with Setsuna with the bullet attack and Louise...but it was just melodrama, like when Athrun and Kira miraculously survived stuff...it felt like another bit of misdirection, rather then delving into other matters. It's kind of like those superhero stories, which I hate, where superheroes lose their powers and then get them back and save the day--it's anti-climatic more often than not...I think I nailed it down, that presentation and timing and genre affected my judgment on this. Again, if this were Evangelion, RahXephon, or another supernatural mecha anime, I would have accepted it easier...

The message of making a change and trying to understand one another comes off: The Andrei dialogue, as much as I dislike Andrei (and Sergei's awkward death scene), does spell it out well. Unfortunately, all the sound and fury coming from the 00 Gundam and Setsuna's Innovation kind of distorted the meaning and came across as more of the immediate, supernatural solution to the problems. To elaborate on my concerns: We've got the same ending as Wing, which was a bit of a stretch, only magnified with more unbelievable wizardry.

Wing came to the same conclusion as 00, except the impetus was seeing a manufactured war unfold that would scare the heck out of people and make them realize how foolish they are, almost allowing the world to be destroyed (through the beam or ship-ramming attack of an angry, oppressed people).

And this is followed up in Endless Waltz, by the people eventually realizing they have to be the change agents and demand peace on a civilian basis. It is a tempered view of the philosophy espoused by Relena, who has tempered her own views by then. The Endless Waltz's epilogue, claiming that peace endures, IIRC, is a bit of a cop-out, and yet, from a thematic, stage play point of view, which Wing really played up with its philosophical dialogues/monologues, it was a fairly logical conclusion to the "Message" and "Presentation" of the anime, the red curtain closing as the final act ends and the actors take their bows. For 00 to come to the same realization by telepathic and superpower'd means toward its 10th or 11th hour felt a bit of a letdown for me, especially after Season 1 started in such a grounded way, attempting to be more explicitly related to our current geopolitical world than even Gundam Wing--especially so, given that some fans were bashing Wing saying that 00 was so much more "believable."

Basically, I think the Innovator thing backfired at bit. It hit me just last night, that After War: Gundam X is the thematic counterpoint to 00's concept of Innovation. While, yes, you say Innovation isn't the end-all, be-all, it's certainly played up to be of central import to The Plan and peace. But Gundam X said that Newtypes, "mutations" with superior abilities of telepathy, etc, (IE: Innovators) weren't inherently better or more connected than Old Types, and that the solutions come independent of supernatural powers that people tend to exploit and covet in greed or fear. Who knew that Gundam X was the sequel to Gundam 00, eh? :P :)
Burke Rukes wrote:So the "dialogues to come" are in relation to potential future contact between humanity and extraterrestrial beings (perhaps the TRUE meaning of "Celestial Being"?) as humanity expands into space...Obviously a setup for the movie... I guess we're gonna get that alien contact sooner than expected! :D
I have yet to see the Movie. I'll probably pick it up and check it out by the end of the year, though. So, I'll have to abandon the discussion in lieu of spoilers. :( But hopefully I'll get your reaction to this post, particularly the parts about the supernatural Newtype stuff and comparisons to Wing and X and where the series started with more down-to-earth tones. (Isn't the supernatural presentation of a solution a little of a betrayal, especially when you're touching on the lessons of past AUs?) Granted, I do think it will fit the Movie better, but as you said, the series should stand without the Movie. I think the Movie will be interesting, though. I hope the Jupiter stuff in the Moive links back to purple Haro somehow. :P
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

LightningCount wrote:But the worst offense is the swapping of Gundams AND GN drives in the middle of a battle so that Setsuna can slay his "idol" 0 Gundam with Exia, and regain his freedom and assume the new role of humanity's future. WAYYYY too heavy-handed and rushed. That just put the nail on the final battle for me as being compelling.
Seriously? All of your other complaints about Gundam 00 I've understood so far but this one takes the taco. The mere fact that Setsuna and Ribbons DOWNgrade to older machines for their final duel is a first in Gundam history and I'm sure you didn't miss the symbology of first Gundam (in a way) dueling one of the new title suits had me grinning the whole time. Remember the final episode of Gundam 00 came practically right on top of Gundam's 30th Anniversary date so this was, IMO, the best homage they could have done for that. The only thing I didn't like was having the monologue pop in. I said to myself, "DAMMIT MARINA!!! I don't want to hear a monologue with frakin' kids singing in the background during one of the best Gundam throwdowns in history!!!"
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
LightningCount wrote:But the worst offense is the swapping of Gundams AND GN drives in the middle of a battle so that Setsuna can slay his "idol" 0 Gundam with Exia, and regain his freedom and assume the new role of humanity's future. WAYYYY too heavy-handed and rushed. That just put the nail on the final battle for me as being compelling.
Seriously? All of your other complaints about Gundam 00 I've understood so far but this one takes the taco. The mere fact that Setsuna and Ribbons DOWNgrade to older machines for their final duel is a first in Gundam history and I'm sure you didn't miss the symbology of first Gundam (in a way) dueling one of the new title suits had me grinning the whole time. Remember the final episode of Gundam 00 came practically right on top of Gundam's 30th Anniversary date so this was, IMO, the best homage they could have done for that. The only thing I didn't like was having the monologue pop in. I said to myself, "DAMMIT MARINA!!! I don't want to hear a monologue with frakin' kids singing in the background during one of the best Gundam throwdowns in history!!!"
I have to completely agree with what you said. Also the fact that Ribbons, the pilot of the 0 Gundam, is voiced by (on the Japanese side) by none other than the same voice actor who piloted the first ever Gundam (aka the original series). I can just imagine the potential hliarity that came amongst the Japanese voice actors as well their honored elder would be getting back into cockpit again and that they would be facing him. :lol:

Sorry for that small mindless speculation at the end.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

I do remember that at some event, Tohru Furuya joked that "should anything happen" to Mamoru Miyano, he'd be ready to step up again.
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

LightningCount wrote:
Burke Rukes wrote:Allelujah's past, present AND future are tied to Marie Parcafy/Soma Peries
The story of these two seemed to stall out and get kind of by-rote once they had their island adventure. I don't know, I just felt like they weren't as involved in the series after that point and that the writers struggled to figure out what to do with them.
I agree, that and Soma becoming the dominant personality when Sergei is killed, that's pretty much all that's done with these two for the rest of the series. If they'd maybe paced things out better overall, not just for Allelujah and Soma/Marie, but for, well, pretty much everybody...

In regards to Graham:
LightningCount wrote:Based on the epilogue with Billy, I think he's been changed back to his old self--still arrogant and superstitious, but not bonkers. Honestly, I look forward to seeing his presentation in the movie almost more than anything.
*holds my tongue so as not to spoil anything, but does give a little smile* :)
LightningCount wrote:Goodness, how did you like the tension with his 0 Gundam use and poisoning-death completely repealed by the healing power of 00? That was too much for me. Combined with Setsuna being cured and Louise coming back from the dead along with Lasse...I just didn't buy it. They were playing fast and loose with death and making plot points of tension lose their consequences.
Yeah, it was a bit too convenient. I guess they wanted everyone who was not truly a villain to have a happy ending (or at least stick around for a sequel). I guess I do feel a little disappointed that most the hero deaths were in Season 1, which I found more emotionally engaging than Season 2 (except the ending/epilogue). Season 1 seemed to take more chances, whereas Season 2, thinking on it a bit more, felt like it did take too many safe ways out on a lot of things. Characters cheating death, magic particles curing everyone, the whole Newtype telepathy thing. Stuff we've seen before. More on some of these items below.

About Saji and Louise:
LightningCount wrote:It's not terrible, but I don't think they add a lot to the plot, and that the time they fill up could have been used for other things maybe.
I found the outsider civilian POV thing in Season 1 pretty refreshing and fascinating, myself. Sort of standing in and speaking for us, the audience, if you will. But they did get drawn into the main story, as I expected. And I truly expected a tragic death for one or both of these characters, but that didn't happen (partially thanks to the magic GN pixie dust). Part of me feels happy that this series played against the usual Gundam trope and avoided the enemy love-couple's tragedy, but still... I dunno. I'm not sure what to feel about it, really.
LightningCount wrote:Too little, too late, and you sentiment regarding that fits with my thoughts about a lot of characters and plot points. They just don't hit on time usually for maximum impact. I did like Wang finally trying to some on-foot active spy stuff at the end with Setsuna...but too little too late. And Nena's convenient placement to get killed by Louise, they're just checking off plot points. Nena wasn't much better than her brothers, and didn't get to do much more other than providing a key tip every now and then (some of it off-camera) as a deus ex-machina to move the story alone.
Thinking back on these characters.... I think Nena should've been killed off in S1 too, and freed up some screen time to develop the new Innovade baddies in S2 better. Wang... I get why she was there, she did serve to move the plot in appropriate places, but maybe her character should've been LESS than what she was. Perhaps just a simple often-seen but little-heard background character, there to simply pass along info to move the plot along. Rather than playing the double agent, I think I'd have rather seen Ribbons and his "kids" playing more false info/manipulation games, and false info, or set-ups for traps being passed along, rather than Wang playing chess with everybody around her. But maybe REDUCE her role, so that we don't need to develop any emotional investment or curiosity about her. Like that Katharon reporter guy, for instance. He showed up several times and served a plot purpose, but otherwise I don't need to know about the guy's history and motivations and all that. Give us more time to develop the characters that matter.
LightningCount wrote:Ribbons and Setsuna are connected thematically more than viscerally, which makes their rivalry and sudden battle-to-end-all-battles kind of hollow.
Y'know... that's what it is, about this whole series. I'd mentioned it a couple of times previously, but I think what you jus said here clarifies it more for me. 00 is more driven by the plot than the characters. But it's also driven by the THEMES. The characters, I just didn't get so emotionally invested in. I LIKED a lot of them, but deep down I don't think I really CARED about most of them (only a few exceptions). The characters were there to represent themes more than to be distinct personalities. A lot of them had good backgrounds and motivations explained, but.... something was still lacking there, overall. Maybe if we'd had more time, the characters could've been fleshed out more, and I might've become more emotionally attached. Not enough time for this series to grow and breathe does seem to be a general problem for 00.
LightningCount wrote:For that matter, the set pieces of the final battle weren't as engaging as Break Pillar or Memento Mori 1. Moreover, the Season 1 desert battle and final fight was a little more tense.
Agreed. The final fight was fun and all, but wasn't particularly memorable. Though I DID love the Exia vs. 0 part, as well as the kids' song and Marina's monologue over it, myself. It felt like a good full circle thematic (yes, thematic stuff can be good AND bad) closure for Setsuna and Ribbons. :)
LightningCount wrote:But then Setsuna said we all have to change, and it was like someone turned on the song, "Man in the Mirror." Yes, humanity has to "make that change" Setsuna, but they'll do it of their own will, by taking a good look at themselves, not a mecha's sparkly lights. The quantum brainwaves thing, humans evolving and understand one another, maybe that can come to pass through evolution, but again, not by a magic particle in my mind. Plus, the director's early interviews said he wasn't going force answers/solutions on us.
Which is a big thing that gives me pause, about how the series' central theme of "true peace can only come through understanding and not conflict" is presented to us, and realized in the context of the plot. I expected the 00 GN field to cover the whole world, and psychically "wake everyone up" and change the world in a sudden and very profound way... but it didn't. Instead we got the "waking up" on a very local scale, but that being said (and with Veda no longer being the information/mind control tool of the powers-that-shouldn't-be), we got a more believable ending in the epilogue, with humanity finally saying "enough is enough" and taking those first struggling steps to try to create a peaceful united world. THAT ending I find much more intellectually and emotionally satisfying than the "GN pixie dust changes everything and saves the day" ending we might have had.

[philosopher mode on]It's like religious fundies waiting for the ending of the world, or new age crackpots who are waiting for "the change" to simply happen, because they deep down have no hope that humanity and the world can change - they're waiting for someone or something else to drop the solution on their head, rather than rolling up their sleeves and doing the work they SHOULD be capable of doing to make the world better for themselves. As Ghandi said, you have to BE the change you want to see in the world. Lead by example, and eventually the world will follow. It won't be easy, and it won't happen overnight with imaginary diety intervening, or aliens coming to save us, or a sudden psychic "awakening" forced on everyone. It's going to, as Marina says, take people trying to understand each other. I have hope for this, myself. Some days that hope is a beaten and battered thing, but it's still there. I think we can do it.[philosopher mode off] :)
LightningCount wrote:For 00 to come to the same realization by telepathic and superpower'd means toward its 10th or 11th hour felt a bit of a letdown for me, especially after Season 1 started in such a grounded way, attempting to be more explicitly related to our current geopolitical world...
Yeah, thinking back, this is a bit jarring for me, too. 00 started off as feeling VERY realistic and gritty and relatable, but a bit TOO science fictiony in the second season, despite a strong start that seemed to continue the tone and setting of S1. I wish they'd stuck with the feel and formula for S1 through to the end.
LightningCount wrote:But hopefully I'll get your reaction to this post, particularly the parts about the supernatural Newtype stuff and comparisons to Wing and X and where the series started with more down-to-earth tones.
I plan to watch Gundam X again soon, it's been too long. I do vaguely recall that in that series, Newtypes weren't meant to be the "next stage of human evolution" as in UC Gundam, but more of an "anomaly" in human evolution, and that the series ended with a good note of hope that humanity would be able to sort out its own problems. Wing, IIRC, left me with a rather unbelievable "and they lived happily ever after" ending. But I can't really speak to either X or Wing in detail right now, it's been so long since I've watched either of them.
LightningCount wrote:Granted, I do think it will fit the Movie better, but as you said, the series should stand without the Movie. I think the Movie will be interesting, though.
Without spoiling anything, I'll say you're right about it fitting the movie better. But still... geez, I really don't know what to think about the movie. Right now I'm debating whether to post my thoughts on the movie here in this thread, or start a separate thread for it. I would like to see the discussion on the TV series proper continue here a bit longer, as I sort out my thoughts and feelings about it. But... the movie feels very different. I'm still trying to sort it out in my head after watching it last night.

But in regards to the series itself... when all is said and done, I did thoroughly enjoy it, and I'll be happy to watch it again not too far down the road. It has flaws and problems, quite a few things I'd have liked to have seen done differently. But then, what Gundam production HASN'T had flaws and problems? They all suffer from one failing or another (though I would argue the only Gundam production which comes close to "perfection," I think, is Char's Counterattack), but then, Gundam is a long franchise with a long history, so there's a lot of exectations and baggage that comes with that title. Standing on its own, as a scifi real (for the most part) mecha series, 00 is very good. Standing as part of the Gundam franchise, I think it's... pretty good, but like Destiny, could've been better. For overall quality, from my recent viewings I think Seed is better in terms of story, characterization, etc.
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LightningCount
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

Thank you for your responses (and for the "no Movie spoilers" :D )

New tone for the Movie, hm? Sounds interesting. I think it's too late to overturn some of my issues with the TV series, so the best I'm hoping from it is:

A.) Some good character wrap-up and winks, especially with Graham. (give him his dues!)

B.) Some visceral action with beautiful animation.

C.) If possible, some thoughtful intrigue about the "dialogues to come" and their global effect socially and politically.

As an aside: Gundam 00 SE1 has some really spiffy animation added in the Moralia fight.

Back to the TV series: Something I want to touch on that came to me about the series. Given your stated background, you may not like it, Burke, but I think it may have been more interesting thematically to explore. In the beginning of the series, Setsuna is emphatic about there being no God. However, his foil, Marina, says the opposite, and they share one brief moment together, prior to the Trinities introduction, about that very subject. Setsuna creates a false god through 0 Gundam, and pledges his loyalty to it. However, given Setsuna's revelation about Ribbons being the pilot, given his closeness to Marina, and awareness of the collective consciousness through 00 Gundam, wouldn't he have perhaps come to peace and accepted that there's a possibility that there's more to this world than he started to believe. That though things can be twisted, the concept of God in of itself is not to blame for his youth. It was more false idol-ship created by Saachez and others, twisting Setsuna. I don't know if this as rounded a journey for Setsuna as it could have been; though, to do otherwise would have been perhaps controversial. But it would have fit with the communion of Newtype-ish souls they pushed in S2 and how everyone needs to be accountable. I can't quite form this thought as much as I'd want to here--maybe the series doesn't inspire me enough in this area to do so as it often worked more on the surface in S2--but it seems to me there was an opportunity for Setsuna to be a little more full-circle in this regard, since it's what started the series even prior to 0 Gundam's appearance...I don't know.

I mean, thematically, it's great that he slayed and supplanted 0 Gundam, but it's also kind of scary. Thematically, does this mean that Setsuna is supposed to be the NEW 0 Gundam? Benevolent as that may seem--as Ribbons seemed through saving Setsuna--it's still subject to human folly without recognition that we are more than ourselves. And thematically, I'm speaking in-universe here. Especially if Setsuna was so affected by Marina...
Burke Rukes wrote:I plan to watch Gundam X again soon, it's been too long. I do vaguely recall that in that series, Newtypes weren't meant to be the "next stage of human evolution" as in UC Gundam, but more of an "anomaly" in human evolution, and that the series ended with a good note of hope that humanity would be able to sort out its own problems. Wing, IIRC, left me with a rather unbelievable "and they lived happily ever after" ending. But I can't really speak to either X or Wing in detail right now, it's been so long since I've watched either of them.
Gundam X, as I've said, was slightly hurt by being denied the 10 more episodes it was supposed to have between what was episodes 25 and 39 (it was building up gradually and very thoughtfully to those final arcs, but then it only had enough episodes left after it was cut down to just cover those last arcs). But it's an interesting series with amazing characterization that is thematically connected and semi-opposed to 00's conclusion, I think.

As for Gundam Wing, its TV ending was the same as 00, only without the sparkly GN magic and Newtype references, and the final battle was something made aware to the whole Earth Sphere due to the climatic build-up that affected all and the media coverage during said event. (So, as I said, if Wing was "unbelievable," Gundam 00 was much more so). Now, Endless Waltz, the animated bookend of Wing, had an epilogue that was much more a thematic one, as it seemed to suggest "happily ever after," but it did so in a good thematic way by bringing in the theme of personal responsibility toward preventing war. It seemed like a good place to close up the universe, as the theme and lesson it was trying to get across, and its characters' journeys, had come to an end. With that, I think it was getting at the Endless Waltz is war, peace, and revolution...but what if people stepped in to say let's hold the middle beat. That was the note they wanted to close on. The "play" or "symphony" it had created from start to finish matched up well in tone.

I think Gundam Wing and Gundam X do a better job of balancing the use of characters and their development in the plot. It's not always something that jumps out at you in a heavy-handed way, it's more subtle, so people often miss it. But, in my opinion, that makes it more natural. Heero Yuy, as opposed to Setsuna F. Seiei, comes to temper his worldview about essentially being a "living weapon" in a more gradual way connected to the overall flow of the plot. You see him grappling back and forth with it humanly throughout, despite the fact that a lot of his humanity was robbed from him. One particular instance that's intriguing is when he says he learned that you have to act on your emotions to lead a good life. In other words, if you always follow orders, you may do something contrary to your own judgment. When he causes an event that makes the world worse rather than better, botching his mission through the manipulation of Treize, he finds his emotions have turned against him. Heero goes to the family members of those he killed one by one, asking them to take vengeance on him. He believes he deserves judgment from their emotions, like his emotions had caused him to make a mistake. It's the only way he knows how to make things right. Yet, one by one, they all refuse, even telling him that he's taking the easy way out versus facing down his emotions and using them to guide him to another path where a possibility for multiplied, redemptive positives may be rather than a eye-for-an-eye even negative; and this, like many other vignettes and character interactions with minor and major characters, tempers Heero more and more in a subtle, social, situational manner.

Not saying Wing or X are flawless, but they stand as some of the more unique, stronger, and complete Gundam TV series, IMO--right next to G, with its hard-hitting familial tale of tragedy and redemption. (Wing is my favorite and the most complete TV series in my mind, though, because it covers a lot of the great stuff about UC that I like while delving deeper into philosophy and politics in a world that seems more grounded in its presentation and measured in its tech. And it does so with very intense characters that leap off the screen and get plenty of time to develop individually, rather than being stuck in a team or army mentality. Moreover, the plot doesn't move in a wholly linear fashion between Earth and space via a White Base-type ship, but rather goes back and forth in an organic fashion covering the whole tumultuous Earth Sphere almost simultaneously. And with the mobile suits, you see a logical progression in technology all done in-show within one TV series. The canceled "Episode Zero" tales, going into the nitty-gritty of character backgrounds that were supposed to be mid-season but were dropped due to scheduling, is one minor regret. But the series does such a good job defining and redefining the characters and their haunted pasts through their present actions and dialogue, that it really is a much more minor loss than it should have been. And some of the other complaints I've heard about Wing regarding stylized feats could just as well be leveled against Zeta. In closing, Wing keeps a great pace with the BIG PICTURE while not sacrificing the nuances of its characters/organizations and their relation to the big picture).

As an aside, ever see this trailer for Wing by Cartoon Network's Toonami? (frames the basics of the series pretty well and shows the "energy" inherent in Wing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVcCB4fze94

Yet, the most complete and tight plot-wise of any Gundam, I would say, might be UC's 0080: War in the Pocket...but that's a short OVA, so it gets in and out covering exactly what it wants to in a small scope with big impact. You can't totally compare it to the TV series, which try to tackle bigger things and has more time to do so.

But then, apologies, I'm getting on a tangent here...
Burke Rukes wrote:Standing as part of the Gundam franchise, I think [00]'s... pretty good, but like Destiny, could've been better. For overall quality, from my recent viewings I think Seed is better in terms of story, characterization, etc.
Yeah, just going on memory and our discussions, as counter-intuitive as it seems, for completeness and satisfaction overall, I have to go SEED, Destiny, then 00. If 00 had had more episodes, it may have been able to trump the others. I know putting Destiny before it is controversial, and I have plenty of complaints about it, and yet, I found myself more engaged with the action, characters, and dialogues throughout. *shrugs*
Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:Seriously? All of your other complaints about Gundam 00 I've understood so far but this one takes the taco. The mere fact that Setsuna and Ribbons DOWNgrade to older machines for their final duel is a first in Gundam history and I'm sure you didn't miss the symbology of first Gundam (in a way) dueling one of the new title suits had me grinning the whole time. Remember the final episode of Gundam 00 came practically right on top of Gundam's 30th Anniversary date so this was, IMO, the best homage they could have done for that. The only thing I didn't like was having the monologue pop in. I said to myself, "DAMMIT MARINA!!! I don't want to hear a monologue with frakin' kids singing in the background during one of the best Gundam throwdowns in history!!!"
It's neat and all, but it's sandwiched in. My complaints, as stated, boil down to this:

A.) 0 Gundam's new coloration and its other 0079 references are BLATANT, DROOLING FAN-SERVICE! I don't care if it's the 30th Anniversary. You don't say "time out" at the climax of an AU series to insert a 30th Anniversary celebration party to UC. (We already have Unicorn for some of that).

B.) The speed and lack of danger in which the swapping of BOTH Gundams AND GN Drives occurs seemed unbelievable and rushed, hurting the flow of the final battle and making it seem like another "time out" that disregards the tension in the plot. Moreover, the fan-service fight is very short, making it seem even more superfluous. Finally, I don't have an attachment to the original Japanese voices like all you, so Amuro being Ribbons, and the irony there, just feels like another fan-service joke in what is supposed to be a very serious moment. Thematically it works, but that's it, and thus it seems artificial.

C.) Even as a fan-service moment, it doesn't hit universally. I like 0079, and its grown on me more over the years, but the UC side-stories and the "Another Gundam" AUs, as the first 3 AU's were called, are what more so define my kind of Gundam, as those are the things that hooked me on Gundam.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

Burke Rukes wrote:...when MSs blow up, shouldn't the pilots be dead?
That isn't the half of it. In the side-story spin-off manga, Gundam 00F, there is a character who gets blown up by a bomb-collar he was forced to wear. Thanks to his exposure to the Particles from his suit's GN Drive, he lived. :P

I agree with most of the points you made, Burke. I felt that 00 ended in a satisfying manner, but I also certainly would have enjoyed it if they had expanded on a few more aspects of the plot. It's pretty clear that there was a lot more story that the writers wanted to tell, but they unfortunately ended up being forced to tie everything up quickly so as not to leave any loose ends dangling before the show was over. This was probably the best thing they could have done, honestly, but it's still a little disappointing.

Nena in particular I felt got one of the shorter ends of the stick. Her final confrontation with Louise lasted for all of a minute and a half, which is pretty anticlimactic for the person who was responsible for sending Louise down the dark road they spent the better part of season 2 exploring. Nena also happened to be one of my favorite characters, so her abrupt and unsatisfying end left me fairly disappointed; I don't mind it if a villain that I like dies, just so long as they do so in specular/significant way (which was why I was pretty disappointed with the way Ali went out too, but he'd spent the better part of season two becoming less awesome than he'd been in season one, so I suppose it was fairly apt).

Shifting topic: people like to harp on Graham for being a waste as Mister Bushido, but I actually thought that he was one of the best parts of the entire show. I adore characters who are hammy and over the top since they tend to be the most fun, and his fights with Setsuna were by far some of the most spectacular out of the whole series. Plus, his mask was really 'effing cool. :) That's not to say that his character from season one was inferior, mind you, just that both incarnations of Graham have their own perks that make them appealing in different ways.

In fact, I'd say that's the best way to sum up the way I compare season one and season two of 00: appealing in their own different ways. I loved the heck out of the first season as we were introduced to a cast of interesting and varied characters and treated to a plot of unfolding political developments and the mystery behind Celestial Being; it was all very intriguing and interesting to watch. Season two, meanwhile, wasn't quite as strong in the narrative department since the story it had to tell just wasn't quite as interesting or compelling. However, I still ended up enjoying it for the sake of the spectacle -- intense mobile suit battles and several awesome combat sequence were to be found all throughout. Heck, the orbital elevator's destruction was nearly enough to make the entire thing worth it by itself.

That's about all I've got for now. Will be awaiting your upcoming thoughts on Trailblazer movie. :)
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

LightningCount wrote:New tone for the Movie, hm? Sounds interesting. I think it's too late to overturn some of my issues with the TV series, so the best I'm hoping from it is:

A.) Some good character wrap-up and winks, especially with Graham. (give him his dues!)

B.) Some visceral action with beautiful animation.

C.) If possible, some thoughtful intrigue about the "dialogues to come" and their global effect socially and politically.
Well, one-and-a-half out of 3 isn't too bad, I suppose... *tries to hold my tongue and not spoil things for you* :?
LightningCount wrote:Back to the TV series: Something I want to touch on that came to me about the series. Given your stated background, you may not like it, Burke, but I think it may have been more interesting thematically to explore.
Oh, just because I'm an atheist, I'm certainly not opposed to exploring themes and ideas regarding mythology and religion and spirituality, if it's handled in an interesting way. For example, my all-time favorite TV series, Babylon 5, was created and most of it written by J. Micahel Straczynski, who has described himself as an atheist, but B5 had one of the most even-handed, thoughtful and, dary I say, respectful treatments of religion in science fiction. I certainly applaud it for that, and as far as I'm concerned, if a show presents themes and ideas in a way that can tickle the imagination and stir up some good thinking, then I'm all for it. I don't necessarily have to agree with the ideas presented to enjoy it. :)
LightningCount wrote:...wouldn't he have perhaps come to peace and accepted that there's a possibility that there's more to this world than he started to believe. That though things can be twisted, the concept of God in of itself is not to blame for his youth. It was more false idol-ship created by Saachez and others, twisting Setsuna. I don't know if this as rounded a journey for Setsuna as it could have been; though, to do otherwise would have been perhaps controversial.
I agree, it's an interesting idea, though it certainly would have been controversial. But what I got Setsuna's flashbacks in regards to the twisted brainwashing at the hands of people like al-Saachiz, isn't necessarily that the existence of a god is the issue, but the issue is radicalism and fundamentalism (whether for religious or political or ideological reasons) and the traumatic brain damage forced on the innocent who grow up in that sort of environment is the real issue - the "does a god exist" question is just the "excuse." It's all about kids getting hurt and abused and turned into monsters, whatever the reason.
LightningCount wrote:But it would have fit with the communion of Newtype-ish souls they pushed in S2 and how everyone needs to be accountable.
I agree that everyone needs to be accountable for the consequences of their actions and decisions, and the Newtype communion thing is a typical Gundam storytelling tool to deal with this, by having characters (both living and dead) forced to face things in an intimate and inescapable way. I don't really know that the belief in or existence of dieties is necessary or even the point. The point of the series is that people need to understand EACH OTHER to grow and stop causing problems, not understand an invisible being that may or may not exist or what it wants. People can debate and theorize about such things until they're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, real people and the real world are what folks need to be concerned about. The spiritual Newtype thing (which I've never felt needed to be based on or concerned with the existence of dieties, in any incarnation going all the way back to First Gundam) has always been about people connecting with each other in a woo-woo science fictiony way. It's an issue Gundam has addressed from the start, presenting in different ways in various incarnations.
Strike Zero wrote:
Burke Rukes wrote:...when MSs blow up, shouldn't the pilots be dead?
That isn't the half of it. In the side-story spin-off manga, Gundam 00F, there is a character who gets blown up by a bomb-collar he was forced to wear. Thanks to his exposure to the Particles from his suit's GN Drive, he lived. :P
:shock:

Wow. Umm... I have those manga. I'll be getting around to reading them eventually... thanks for the warning. :P
Strike Zero wrote:Shifting topic: people like to harp on Graham for being a waste as Mister Bushido, but I actually thought that he was one of the best parts of the entire show. I adore characters who are hammy and over the top since they tend to be the most fun, and his fights with Setsuna were by far some of the most spectacular out of the whole series. Plus, his mask was really 'effing cool. :) That's not to say that his character from season one was inferior, mind you, just that both incarnations of Graham have their own perks that make them appealing in different ways.
Sure, Graham in his "Mr. Bushido" guise had some pretty exciting fights with Setsuna in S2. I've never doubted his piloting ability, it's been a very consistent aspect of his character through both seasons. My problem is, MS piloting skill aside, I could never take "Mr. Bushido" seriously as a threatening villain. Hammy and over the top can be fun, and still be threatening if they're used well. "Hammy and over the top" for a villain pilot immediately brought to mind, for example, Yazan from Zeta. He certainly filled that bill, with his brash attitude and wild hair and bare-chested funky custom uniform, but he certainly felt more like a threat to me than "Mr. Bushido," who I considered to just be cartoonish and silly.
Strike Zero wrote:That's about all I've got for now. Will be awaiting your upcoming thoughts on Trailblazer movie. :)
I'm... hesitant to make my post about the movie just yet. I actually wrote it up earlier today, but LightningCount doesn't want to be spoiled, and I'm trying to let the discussion about the TV series proper run its course pretty well before I talk about the movie. I'll see what the thread does over the next day or two before I make that post. *braces for more controversial and intense discussion* :P
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

LightningCount wrote:*The Saji/O-Raiser thing. Yes, he's a spotter, looking for Louise 9 times out of 10, and yes he has to flip some throttles to stabilize O-Raiser's beam sword...but at the end of the day, that's a very small task compared to Haro and his famous "O-Raiser Docking mode" line. It seems like that is where most of the separate action comes, and then it's just Setsuna doing fancy moves while Saji's along for the ride. It's fine enough, but the use of Saji and Louise are pretty small in the plot, after their tragedy was played up in Season 1 as a counterpoint to CB, which would be reflected in the future and magnified it seemed. Well, it was, but in a small way only slightly bigger that Mr. Bushido's crazed love affair. I don't know what should have happened, but Saji and Louise's "civilian" point of view never played out very well overall in the end, IMO. It always felt at odds and "me-too" with the flow of the plot, hampering it more often than not.
They're supposed to be civilians caught in war I believe, which started with Nena's actions in S1 that led to these two being where they are. Saji lost his sister while Louise joined the military to get revenge. the civilian thing was only suppose to play out in S1, Mizushima mentioned he wanted to make them join the conflict because prior to this war was just nothing but newsfeeds to them.

And I have to personally disagree with you about Saji. When I first heard Saji was piloting the 0 Raiser I was sad because I thought Saji was going to do some actual fighting and become a decent fighting yet that was not the case at all. I was really happy that Saji's role seem to be very supportive rather than active and that he won't be joining the lines of pilots who were civilians and became powerful important pilots. His role was limited based on what he actually was, an engineer without military training whatsoever. Even Louise can be assumed to have received some to be able to become a real pilot.

The best contribution he did was to help destroy whatever is it that Raiser Sword damaged, which was really more than enough for me since I was not happy with him doing too much. Aside from that, he was never really a pilot in any real sense and he's certainly not a regular of the 00 Raiser crew so I would agree he's just along for the ride which was what I was hoping on from the very beginning fearing he would become a real pilot suddenly.

Aside from that I would say he helped destroy the second Memento Mori by synchronizing the Drives, which is big a deal of its own I guess.
Burke Rukes wrote:Speaking of bushido... Graham Aker. One of the more interesting, and credible, rival pilots/threats in S1... who got turned into a caricature in S2. I think what happened to his character is my single biggest complaint about the series overall. He kept being built up to be this major threat, but spent most of S2 sitting on the sidelines, and when he did show up, he was scary powerful - until some circumstance changed to make him tuck tail and run. Compare this to his truly impressive butt-kicking in S1, and it's just sad what happened to his character. He could've been made truly compelling, and given me a reason to cheer for him in S2 as I cheered for him in S1... instead he became this weird, whacko joke. However, we do see him poke his head into Billy's office in the epilogue... did he learn ANYTHING from Setsuna's words and naked Newtype communion thingie with him in their last fight? Somehow, I don't think so. But then, I may be pleasantly surprised when I watch the movie this evening. *shrug*
I'm not happy with the portrayal of Graham either like most people but I sort of understand where he's coming from or what he's being made as.

The way I see it, Graham was destroyed in S1. Graham's craziness for battles and Gundams was always there, even in episode 3 where he challenged Exia directly. He's just naturally that type of person, the difference is that he's also a team player and a soldier who follows orders and as we can see he does care about the Union to a certain extent, like we saw when he stopped his teamates in Azadistan.

What happened in S2 in my opinion was meant to be the death of all his good traits. The loyal soldier and the teammate. Now all you see is this crazy will to battle the strongest, which quite frankly was what the Gundams in S1 were anyways. You can see his desire to chase them all this time in S1, the difference is that it became more than obsession for glory, it became personal as his teamates died and became a quest for revenge. By the end of S1, this was all that is. He refused to fight with the other GN-Xs, and he kept at it with his request for the GN Flag, all to beat the Gundam.

This has not really changed much in S2, except its more controlled craziness than uncontrolled rage. You see, Setsuna and Graham are both very similar to each other. They both take their symbolism very seriously. God knows how Setsuna reacts when he sees a Gundam doing things he doesn't like, because it goes beyond the definition of what a Gundam is hence they are "not" Gundams to him. Graham shares the same obsession except with the Flag for more neutral reasons, but he also shares some hatred for the Gundams.

Every enemy in Gundam 00 hates Gundams, the difference is that Graham wants to defeat them in symbolism. Everybody else in A-LAWS would have been happy with a stray shot from a Baikal class cruiser to hit and kill any Gundam, but Graham wants to defeat the strongest Gundam himself.

In some ways, I think its revenge, revenge to the Gundams for doing this to him and his teammates so he wants to defeat the Gundam in one of its strongest symbolism; its strength. Only by defeating the strongest Gundam one-on-one would he be able to redeem himself and redeem what the Gundams have done to them and the Flag (like all those times where the Flag got hammered; like Howard's death by Zwei). He doesn't care for military victories or physical destruction, its the ultimate revenge for to satisfy his own soul that's important.

For the record, Masurao's beam sabers are named Howard and Daryl respectively. No joke, its shown directly in the HG kit.

Its also selfish in a way. He doesn't care towards the world anymore or his other teammates. He doesn't follow orders or even concerned that any of his teammates in the team he's assign would die. He doesn't even care about his organization. He wants to satisfy his own soul, or his desire for revenge. That's all he has, he won't settle for other things if he loses, he would rather have death in battle than to live and move on.

Its also in some strange sense a mirror to Setsuna. Setsuna's POV can easily be understandable but I say it relates more towards the hunger for battles. Setsuna may love peace, but he's hungry for battles. He's been doing it all his life and most what he likes to do. In some sense, Graham obsession for killing the best Gundam in the best way (if it was do to an error of circumstantial, the revenge in its fullest would have been denied to him) is similar to Setsuna's desire to "eradicate the distortion of the world". It may not be in the same way as Graham, but Setsuna loves fighting things that will help him destroy the distortion to make the world a better place. A more honorable goal than say symbolic revenge but still an obsession of battles. He did this as late as S2-11 where he had this griizzly loud voice saying that "we will destroy the distortion with our own will" when he just got the 00 Raiser and killed Captain Ginin. In some ways, Setsuna moved away from that as the episode progressed mainly because of his quantum field interactions but Graham seems to still be as obsessed as ever. Setsuna I think denote these difference in the Masurao battle where he said "I used to be like that".

In the end, I do have a lot of problems with his portrayal (I can't explain it properly but it should be mostly what everyone said), but I do sort of understand where he's coming from. He's supposed to be in some ways like Setsuna except more crazy and with less noble goals to represent the obession of battle. The difference is that he can be redeemed unlike Ali who has gone far down that path for so long.

I will say this though, Masurao battle was kickass. I wish they really kept it for the final battle because I like Masurao's style and color; not to mention beam sabers more.
Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:The only thing I didn't like was having the monologue pop in. I said to myself, "DAMMIT MARINA!!! I don't want to hear a monologue with frakin' kids singing in the background during one of the best Gundam throwdowns in history!!!"
Personally that was my favorite part. The letter suppose to summarize Setsuna's sad past as he was fighting the man that made it possible. His past a a bit of a tragic one, a child kidnapped and made to do many bad things forever indoctrinating him in battle even as he did it for good things. In some sense, its also Marina's hope for what Setsuna could ultimately achieve: peace for his own self after years of fighting. I thought it made the scene at least ten times stronger with the song. Hell, I'll even say that I am of the opinion that the song fitted this battle more than it did anywhere else in the series. As Setsuna faces and asskicks the man that made it possible, the man that could have just killed him in that city of war leaving him to be a dead corpse along with hundreds of other people and children with no end in sight, but saved him and made him the Meister he ironically so he can become the saviour that the man himself wanted to become so much.

Other than that, it was a cool fight with swords, beam sabers and rifle shots. There's a bit of a raw brawl in there too, but not too much like the GN flag fight. Like a lot of Gundam 00's battles, short but sweet.

On an unrelated note, both GN Drives were destroyed in this battle. 0 Gundam's Drive destruction reason is quite obvious because the sword pierced 00 Gundam self contained GN Drive cone unit but I wonder how Exia's got destroyed though. Exia's entire GN Drive unit was in the chest like Nadleeh and the other 3rd Generation Gundams and I guess the saber did pierced a bit of the chest section a bit; more towards the side. The burst mode that Exia did at the end was also unstable according to MG Exia manual so I speculate that it along combined with the beam saber slightly piercing the torso played a factor. These two along with Seraphim's Drive was destroyed, according to sidematerials.
Last edited by SonicSP on Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

SonicSP, I gotta say, your analysis of Graham and his Mr. Bushido personality, and comparing him to Setsuna, is explained really well, and is giving me some things to think about. Next time I watch this series, I'll definitely be looking at Graham in a different light, I think. :)
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

SonicSP wrote:Exia's entire GN Drive unit was in the chest like Nadleeh and the other 3rd Generation Gundams.
The original Exia's, yes. But not Exia R2's.
Remember: Both the GN Drive that went into Exia R2 AND the one that went into O Gundam ACD came from 00 Gundam. This means that both of them were "self contained GN Drive cone units".
Looking carefully at the scene in question, it looks to me like 0 Gundam's beam saber blade enters through the upper torso and exits through the lower back, punching through the bottom of the drive cone - hence both drive cones are pierced, ensuring the destruction of both GN Drives.

I will add that given the angle of penetration, the destruction of Exia's GN Drive is even more guaranteed since the beam saber pierced all the way through the chest - had it been an old-school GN Drive, it would have been pierced diagonally across its entire length.
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SonicSP
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

@Burke Now that you've watched all of 00, you may want to go back in the thread and read all our comments that was covered in spoiler tags as you were watching.
Dark Duel wrote:
SonicSP wrote:Exia's entire GN Drive unit was in the chest like Nadleeh and the other 3rd Generation Gundams.
The original Exia's, yes. But not Exia R2's.
Remember: Both the GN Drive that went into Exia R2 AND the one that went into O Gundam ACD came from 00 Gundam. This means that both of them were "self contained GN Drive cone units".
Looking carefully at the scene in question, it looks to me like 0 Gundam's beam saber blade enters through the upper torso and exits through the lower back, punching through the bottom of the drive cone - hence both drive cones are pierced, ensuring the destruction of both GN Drives.

I will add that given the angle of penetration, the destruction of Exia's GN Drive is even more guaranteed since the beam saber pierced all the way through the chest - had it been an old-school GN Drive, it would have been pierced diagonally across its entire length.
Except 0 Gundam ACD uses 00 Gundam's GN Drive cone while Exia R2 uses Exia's original GN Drive cone. What this means is that they actually took the drive core and placed it in the original 3rd Generation large chassis before inserted it back to Exia (TBH, that sounds like a lot of work). This makes the changing scene the Drives even harder in concept, at least for Exia's side.

How do I know this? Aside from it looking different if you analyze almost all the model kits and figures (they should be identical twins yet they are not; by contrast the Exia original and Exia R2 cone look exactly the same), the cone used by the R2 had the burst ability. According to the MG Exia manual, the burst ability was available ever since the original Exia and referring to its cone mechanism had the ability to use a temporary "burst state". The reason why it was almost never used was because it was considered an unstable ability. It even goes to say that this ability of the cone was used in the one used in R2. 00 Gundam's cone lacks this ability since it involves some specific mechanism of the cone opening up. The original Exia cone was never designed to hold a GN Drive core inside of it unlike 00 Gundam's cones.

00 Gundam's cones is also slightly smaller than the Exia's I believe while the R2 design is essentially the exact same as the original Exia in terms of visual and size. In addition, 00 Gundam's cone has no room to accommodate those three "grey latches" that cuts into the cone whereas the R2 cones has these latches.

They also just look very different, compare their MG 1/100 model versions of 00 Gundam and original Exia. Exia's does not have the three point green thursters and while I have no MG R2 models to compare with, I assure you it looks the same as the original Exia:

00 Gundam's Cone
http://www.dalong.net/review/mg/m144/p/m144_22.jpg

Exia's Cone (opened up for burst)
http://www.dalong.net/review/mg/m122/p/m122_38.jpg

Normal Mode:
http://www.dalong.net/review/mg/m122/p/m122_14.jpg
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

I actually liked to see people surviving their MS exploding, for the most part these characters were destroyed in ways that made their survival plausible (even if we the viewer didn't realize it at the time) and rare was it that we were left hanging on whether someone was dead or alive. I also felt it was applied evenly to both sides such that the writers didn't favor the heros surviving -not so- miraculously over the villains.

As for the GN Healing I much prefer it to the alternative. These characters (particularly Louise) surviving gives 00 a very optimistic ending. Mankind can grow to understand one another, people don't want war and we can achieve what we want through hardship. As I said before if one kind of GN particles can cause the damage it makes sense that a different variety can heal it. Particularly with the revelation that these particles are the enabling factor for Innovation.

I also laugh at anyone who thought GN particles were anything less than magical pixie dust. They were an enabling plot device for the series from day one.

Graham has, I think, been discussed very thoroughly but let me throw in my two cents. After Season 1 he essentially had nothing. The Union was gone and his squad mates were all dead so he had nothing to fight for. He's a caricature of his former self because Celestial Being has stripped him of all delusion and after beating them he has nothing to satisfy his urge to fight. Their return is something of a godsend to him a foe that can satisfy him at last but he refuses to take anything short of a total victory for fear that it will leave him just as unsatisfied as before. Comparing him to Zechs or Char is rather off base, Setsuna never truly acknowledges Graham as a rival. He's closer to Jerid than either of them but much less annoying (IMO), something of a loser villain or unrequited love interest. I admit it might have been interesting to put him more in the fore of S2 but ultimately there were many more important plot points that I felt more worth our time.

The Final fight between the 0 and R2 I thought was excellent not as fan-wank but an elegant love letter to Gundam as a franchise. It took ideas from the past but blended and spun them into something that worked well as a capstone to this series. Ribbons the Innovade who would be a god in the machine that replaced god for Setsuna is an incredibly fitting final foe. Setsuna destroys the 'God' which was trying to bind humanity to its will leaving room for a future which humanity itself can shape. Setsuna himself does not replace Ribbons but instead becomes more of a guide post for mankind as a whole, something to aspire to.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

Sume Gai wrote:As for the GN Healing I much prefer it to the alternative. These characters (particularly Louise) surviving gives 00 a very optimistic ending. Mankind can grow to understand one another, people don't want war and we can achieve what we want through hardship. As I said before if one kind of GN particles can cause the damage it makes sense that a different variety can heal it. Particularly with the revelation that these particles are the enabling factor for Innovation.
I don't have a problem with GN Healing per say; afterall Setsuna benefited from it. They can already reduce weight (not mass though, which points to it being anti gravitational effect than anything) and a lot of other good stuff. I just have a problem with the potrayal of it all. Louise and Lasse did not have to be placed into the positions they were, both of them heading towards the verge of death because of their sickness who just mainly activates at around this time. I say the sickness activating at this time was more of a plot device to get Setsuna to be able to heal them as opposed to the healing being a plot device mainly to cure the sickness.

Meh, maybe being saved from the verge of a death is a better way I can see it rather than gone to full power back in one sweep. Trans-Am Burst is supposed to have Innovated some people around the world according to 00V Senki 4 so I guess it might have distributed some healing effects with it too.

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I also reckon this is where all those potential Innovator in the movie came from and most likely how Descartes Shaman Innovated.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

I understood how Graham became Mr. Bushido, and again, that was an important thematic reaction to CB's actions, but I just didn't like how little he was used as either Graham OR Mr. Bushido.

Also, why so passionate with Setsuna versus Lockon or the Trinities? As I said, he fought Exia twice in very brief confrontations in episodes 3 and, I think 4. Then it's not until 12 or 13 that he meets Setsuna face-to-face, but he doesn't know for sure he's the pilot of Exia as far as I can tell. During that same time, he ends up fighting Lockon. Then, a few episodes later, in 15, he fights Lockon a second time with the "lover's embrace." That means he fought Dynames and Exia the same amount of times. The same could be said for the Trinities, which he fought twice, once losing Mason, once taking Johan's MS' arm. And yet, at the end, he goes straight for Setsuna with the GN Flag and proclaims how serious their rivalry is. Is it because Setsuna's the last man standing and he's just glad to find someone to fight? Or because he met Setsuna's Gundam first? He never seemed to complain earlier in the series when he fought one of the other Gundams instead of Exia. I say this, because he doesn't have a true established rivalry/hate any worse than he does for the other Gundams he's faced. And S2, I guess it's because word traveled about the Twin Drive and he held over feelings from S1's semi-illogical final fight. I don't know. It seems like all that could have been tighter.

Plus, I thought it was a little strange that they pawned off Ali, Setsuna's real rival, to Neil, and then, after reestablishing a rivalry with Setusna and making one with Tieria over Neil's death in S2, it was Lyle who got the final fight with him. It's OK, but all these fast and loose rivalries, combined with Patrick's ineffectiveness to form one, left me a bit underwhelmed.

Honestly, with the spoiler-tagged stuff earlier, I'm most interested in how 00 became what it became from the business standpoint. The original plan prior to it being released seemed to change from it being a bigger deal more along the lines of Cosmic Era, and SonicSP mentioned some plot changes that occurred and the main writer being a little upset at one point with the backlash from the early pacing of Season 1 or something. It's like 00 became this strange experiment to get more out of less so Sunrise could make more Code Geass anime. It really forced them to cram things in in a bare bones fashion at times.

I don't know that I have much more to say about 00. I was very hopeful at the start-- even if a bit suspicious over the surface parallels to Wing like SEED's surface connections to 0079--but it left me with a really bitter taste in my mouth at the end of S2. The fact that there were parallels (non-governmental Gundams taking out war-makers, a peaceful princess juxtaposed with a stoic child soldier she helps humanize, the kind pilot who can be crazy-violent, the jovial pilot who tries to lighten the mood, the extreme loner pilot who doesn't get along with the others, etc) became a bad thing, because it didn't treat its own ins and outs--even its own setting with the unique Orbital Elevators--with enough care and depth, and came up looking naked more often than not in its plotting and usage of characters. It seemed like it tried to do the bare minimum of work with too many, making them acceptable, but not as rounded or as integrated and interesting as one might have expected. As I said, I felt like I got a Cliff's notes of what 00 was supposed to be...and at some point not long after the start of S2, it felt too much like I was going through the motions of your typical Gundam, albeit with great animation. (Although, the blurring of animation in S2 got carried away and hurt some of the fights, IMO). Anyway, I just felt detached except for a handful of moments. The only really emotional moments for me were in S1, with Louise's hospital scene (which was a bit forced upon us, but worked on shock value) and Neil's death (which was truly fantastic). I'll have to read the novels to see how they try to add to what was there in S1. I feel like overall, especially with S2, we got more whiz-bang flash, GN voodoo, and Tomino-isms than the really meaty substance that was just beyond the surface in the world and characters. Every series is its own beast, but I can't help but wonder if there was a little more they could have squeezed out of the episodes they had. What gets covered in 25 episodes of 00 isn't the same as what gets covered in some other series, particularly other AUs, which often have just as large of casts. But I've said my peace, I think. :? And if you like it a lot as it is, more power to you.

Well, if you want to go ahead and discuss the Movie, you can go ahead. Don't let me stop you. Just make it clear ahead of time that you're going to be saying spoilers with some word of warning in case I check back in.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

^While I have to say that I absolutely love 00 the way it turned out, well for the most part anyways, that is not to say I think its perfect (not even close actually since perfection is a high standard by its own definition) and I myself would not mind a more grounded version.

But if it happens true that the more realistic settings and themes were changed in S2 due to the fans not accepting well, then it may not bode well for more Gundam 00S1 type settings in the future really.

Until then, this Childhood's End version as some have called it will do for me. It was a fun ride while it lasted, and the same goes for this thread. Had a blast talking about 00 again.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam 00!

I think the rivalry had a bit to do with Exia being the first Gundam he saw and fought with. Add to that Graham's preference for close combat (demonstrated more in S2 than S1 but still present) and the Exia is definitely the one best suited to match him. Follow this with their meeting again in S2 (likely to Graham's surprise) and it should be no surprise he set himself as Setsuna's rival. Graham was big on the Ideas of Fate and Destiny in S1 so really it all must have clicked for him even if it didn't for Setsuna.

Ali getting passed off to Lyle actually makes a lot of sense to me. In the End he was Ali's greatest victim, his whole family died because of Ali's actions. I also (in retrospect I admit) like the method he went out with, cold and without passion. That ending is the most utter denial of what Ali was; a man who derived pleasure out of fighting and killing. Killing Ali in a fit of rage or similar would make one just a little bit more like him.
I just have a problem with the potrayal of it all. Louise and Lasse did not have to be placed into the positions they were, both of them heading towards the verge of death because of their sickness who just mainly activates at around this time.
To be honest I'm not sure of any other way to -show- this event. sure one could put in two expository lines about "Lasse is doing better" & "Louise is back to normal" but that's simply telling.
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