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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:37 pm 
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Antares wrote:
Good point, although slightly a scary one since to Veda, it would follow, the ends would justify the means, but I guess we could allow for a quantum computer to have some more "humane" variables factored in. And at least Veda didn't get all Skynet-y on humanity, which would suggest that despite his other flaws, Aeolia at least knew how to write code that wouldn't turn against him (that was Alejandro's role :P ).

Well, Veda does not have human emotions... Though, for what it's worth, there are atleast 2 groups that can keep Veda in check (somewhat...): Observers and Innovades. (Funny that some of their members are also the ones that decided to betray the organization).

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I thought, though, that the ending of war -plan was merely a stepping stone to bringing about Innovation in some way? When Ribbons hijacked the plan (or thought he did), was that actually within Aeolia's grand plan too? Was the creation of A-LAWS also intentional, and all judged necessary for the greater good? I realize these might all be rhetorical questions. :)

We will never know how innovation will happen if not for Alejandro/Ribbons' intervention. It was said that their betrayal was still in scope with the plan (meaning, it was judged as beneficial to the plan). The A-Laws was one of Ribbons' interpretation of the plan's stages/phases (I think it was the "uniting humanity's will" part).

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They have all that going on in the sidestories?! My, oh my! This demolishes most of my earlier whining completely! I had no idea at all, since I don't usually investigate sidestories all that much. Clearly, in the case of G'00, I've seriously missed out.

The side stories that are connected to the end of the movie are just short stories or rather just information on some scenes. They are not that big. Actually, Hellcat just said all that is to know in them.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:52 pm 
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Antares wrote:
Good point, although slightly a scary one since to Veda, it would follow, the ends would justify the means, but I guess we could allow for a quantum computer to have some more "humane" variables factored in. And at least Veda didn't get all Skynet-y on humanity, which would suggest that despite his other flaws, Aeolia at least knew how to write code that wouldn't turn against him (that was Alejandro's role  ).


00P talks a bit about one of Veda's perceived weaknesses was that it lacked human element. This is one of the reasons the Observers exists according to it which was for them to veto Veda's actions or decisions of they disagreed with them and since the Observers are humans, they can still see things from a human point of view and balance the decision making. They need a unanimous vote though if episode 16 S1 is an indicator.

Veda is still very much the steerer of the boat though, it's just a bit of check and balances.



Antares wrote:
Is this canon, or just implied? Because this is the first I've heard that the ELS "arrived too early". It didn't seem to me that all of humanity would "awake", as you called it, as Innovators in the first place. On the other hand, if we accept that Aeolia's main plan was based on vague guesses that through incredible strokes of luck turned out for the best, then I can buy it.  Without the quantum brainwaves that Aeolia triggered, the ELS wouldn't have even looked our way before. As zerogradius said, Aeolia's plan to rid humanity of war brought the first inter-planar war to our door.


The thing is, what caused the war was misunderstanding in the first place because the two sides could not understand each other even though there was goodwill on both sides. Quantum brainwaves only brought the ELS here so they could become friends with us by assimilating us but humans are weird unlike the being they have assimilated before (which were mostly collectives) so they did not understand individuality and what assimilation actually means for humans when to their culture and their biology is a good thing. A lot of other collectives with QB had similar notions as well according to 00N.

Antares wrote:
This brings me to anthers point of Aeolia's perceived omniscience; his apparent hypothesis was that once humans were all Innovators (and would they actually be humans at all at that stage?), then we'd be more peaceful when venturing to space? Accepting that premise, becoming an Innovator still does not change the human state all that much, given that Descartes Shaman, an acknowledged Innovator, shouldn't be trusted to initiate first contact even with non-sentient, inanimate objects. 

And this does not even take into account other possible aliens who might not have quantum brainwaves, and who'd like nothing better than to exterminate the vermin-like hairless apes stumbling across the galaxy, like zerogradius also pointed out. In which case Innovators would either a) try to dominate them with quantum brainwaves into a forced peace, or b) unleash the Innovator-warpotential, turning the Innovators into the Ur-Quan of AD. 

Actually, one of the better parts of G'00 S1 was the fact that CB believed so blindly, with almost child-like fervor (fundamentalists, anyone?) in Aeolia's plan. That made them so morally ambiguous because their morals were utterly outsourced to a computer, of all things. Only when the Trinitys stepped out of line they did dare to question Veda (and by that extension, Aeolia's plan, but of course they soon figured out what the "real" plan had to be).

So yeah, Aeolia's plan was quite bad from an objective point of view, but because it was so vague it all worked out for humanity, I guess. 
Bad things happened = you didn't follow Aeolia's plan. 
Good things happened = just as Aeolia planned. 
My god, he's like Light in that sense; an absurdly complex plan cushioned in moral righteousness to force a change upon humanity.


-Aeolia's Plan has several dimensions I guess but one of it's present concerns is nuclear I believe because nuclear can lead to many potential problems for humanity. I assume he means fission rather than fusion though. But I guess it was done mainly done for the humanity of the far future by solving some big problems of humanity now before it gets too bad. The ones sacrificed probably comes from the generations that suffered the energy crisis as de-nuclearisation and the large economic costs associated with it, as well as the potential instabilities that are abound from the externalities caused by the Plan too.

-Regarding Innovators, becoming an Innovator probably doesn't change one much, not individually. The way I see it's more of the social change that comes from a whole population of Innovators who can easily understand each other more easily and prevent things from getting too out of hand when they are misunderstandings and maybe even more empathy. QB is more than about normal communications either, it's easier to emphatize and understand feeling and transmit them and against a background of other people who. This is nor course combined with the relative comfortable position of infinite energy and a united Earth.

Of course, in regards to Shaman, in addition to being an ass-like guy, the movie novelisation his wearing an anti QB suit that prevents him from using QB to communicate or getting interference from them (he's wearing the same suit type tech as Soma's in S1, he doesn't get interference unless it's direct) physical contact so he didn't got a chance anyways. In all fairness though,

-In regards to using QB with other civilizations, the other party may not necessarily have QB in order to experience it. This is because in this context, the best method of usage is the QB Field, usually with machine with a powerful QB Field expansion system like Qan(T)'s Quantum Burst. This doesn't rely on those being enveloped by the field needing QB to experience it, such as the many examples we have of 00 Raiser doing this in S2. The ELS do have QB but they don't use it in an expansionary manner that can cover those outside their already made network, whereas the Gundams' Quantum Field can insert new entries into a single network for that short while by amplifying the user Innovator's powers. 

A potential scenario of having trouble establishing a QB communications fields or link will not come from beings that do not have it (due to the existence of the QB amplifier) but rather from any beings that are for some reason immune to it. But as far as elaboration is concerned we have confirmed that a few other civilizations have them and use them so it's decently versatile as an inter-being communication medium that some beings already have.

zerogradius wrote:
It's funny how Aeolia's plan to rid humanity of war ended up bringing one to Earth.

One of the main problems I have with Aeolia is that he seems to assume that only humans are warlike and that space is a peaceful place with aliens who just want to talk. What would have happened to a war-free humanity devoid of weapons if a warlike alien race like the Supervision Army encountered them. They would have been annihilated, regardless of whatever dialouge they present.


-I dont think he made that assumption that humans are imperfect while aliens are, or at least I don't recall any indication that he believed that. He just believes that humans must solve their warlike problems with themselves first incase it might lead them to problem at an intergalactic level, it certainly not going to help. QB communications are just to help prevent wars and start establishig relationships because it's a very versatile form of communications. I don't think it means that he believes that aliens are perfect, just that humanity must not be warlike in the probability that it would be amplified a the intergalactic level and cause problems.

Of course, I also agree that humans should not be fully pacifists, otherwise it would be a potential problem later on. I'm not sure whether a full disarment is part of the plan although it very well could be. The post S2 ESF made that decision as a response to the previous events it seems, whether it was actually called in the Plan, it wasn't mentioned one way or the other to my knowledge.

As far as current situations goes, everything has worked out the best way for humanity as far as preparedness goes. There's no more mobile suits or weapons anymore and war with itself is a thing of the past which is good from an intra-humanity POV. As far as preparedness for an possible war with other civilization goes, the current humanity do have the ELS as allies both on Earth and the ones at other places if such a situation happens and it's probably not hard for them to transform into weapons and help humanity out, so current humanity had it good both ways due forbid versatility.

I recall the movie novelization mentioned that Setsuna fought another war later on alongside Billy's son and some CB members although it basically just left it there. Doesn't elaborate on the context of the war though.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Late to this thread but having rewatched the TV series and film again, I'll throw in my sum up of the 00 franchise:

00 is basically the 'sexy, Hollywood' Gundam series where all the characters are beautiful, the Gundam designs are near fantasy like and basically super heroic, complete with more sophisticated cinematography, fast cuts and a superior 'single camera' style visual technique.

I'd like to think if there was a Michael Bay or Jerry Bruckheimer of the UC universe, and he decided to produce a Gundam series based on the real life mobile suits and wars he grew up around, this is the show he'd create.

All in all, while I'm a diehard UC enthusiast since that is what I grew up with, 00 is probably my favorite non UC franchise simply because it is what the UC series is not, and so they don't conflict or overlap much. Seed/C.E. tries to be a mashup of the two...and doesn't do either as well IMHO.


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